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You better not open that! (Part III)
I told you to not open this thread! You probably don't listen to your mommy too, right?
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I appreciate that you want to add categories as to his descent, but we need evidence. Furthermore, being of Welsh or Native American descent being controversial, we would need evidence from a clearly reliable source, not just one quoting him as to his descent. — Arthur Rubin(talk) 01:28, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Here, in the subject's own vlog or whatever you want to call it, he discloses his roots (WASP @ 9:11, Native American @ 7:07, German @ 9:15 & 9:19, "British" @ 9:20, Welsh @ 9:15), and his views (Protestant @ 9:10) so I added them into the article assuming good faith. I expect you to do the same. Sincerely, ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 17:41, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Native Americans object to people falsely claiming to be of Native American descent. That makes it a controversial statement, requiring reliable sources. I don't think anyone objects to people falsely claiming to be of German or British descent, but I can't speak for the Welsh. I wouldn't list it without a reliable source commenting on it. — Arthur Rubin(talk) 18:13, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Now are they? Is it perchance possible you are trying to suggest that he made a lie about his ancestry on a nationally-syndicated radio show? Oh my. Now as much as a nice challenge is to find at least one reliable source backing Jones' own claim, I do not have the time nor willpower to go through +6,000 sub-sites of Stormfront which is a website all those "Native American ancestry" footprints lead to. Anyhow, I have no idea on how first-party sources, sources in which notable people themselves reveal whatever personal stuff they want to reveal, are generally treated here and reminds me much of a grey area that can easily turn into a nasty combat zone so let me first come up with a solution and later on you tell me whether you like it or not. Sincerely, ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 20:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
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The Importance Of Disco
I believe Disco is very important. But so do I believe that other genres that pre-date and post-date it are important. Of course, Disco was a major influence on hip hop. But Chic's Good Times was a disco song, which was used for Rapper's Delight, which was an early hip hop song. I believe the two genres are separate but related. Hip hop is, of course, also related to other genres. However, Disco's influence should not be negated and it is not - it is listed, quite rightly, as a stylistic origin. If it wasn't, I would be amongst the very first to defend its place. I have never stated that disco and hip hop are unrelated. I'm no "Allmusic self-proclaimed expert". I just lived through the 1970s and 1980s and was very interested in the popular music of those decades. I read a great deal about them. All I ask of Wikipedia is that all statements are reliably sourced. (Etheldavis (talk) 22:56, 17 May 2014 (UTC))
The point is disco had much closer to hip hop than any of those styles despite them being equally important. Every element had its place and meant something to hip hop but disco provided an actual musical platform for hip hop's older genre rap to properly develop. It wasn't R&B rap (happened later) or scat rap (Louis Jordan?) but disco rap[p] and it sure wasn't something like this but an actual thing with a disco track in a loop just like hip hop does it now with someone rapping over the music even though the rap style was more party-oriented which is understandable for disco being all focused on discotheques and all. That was a real term for the genre until someone heard Sugar Hill Gang and came up (how original) with the "hip hop" label. Maybe you are focusing on the big picture here that hip hop used to be a part of disco (the better term here should be "identical") but it is not anymore? ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 01:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
You have my Respect. I couldn't survive one single day in the Seventies and am glad for what technology of today has got to offer to us humans even though shops still don't sell hoverboards. Bummer, I know. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 01:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
LOL! Yes, the Seventies were very different times. I'll tell you how I saw music in the 1970s and 1980s... what it was like to be a teen/twenty something for me back then... This is from a UK perspective... The 1970s and early 1980s were very hard times. On the music scene, the first big "hooray" of the 1970s was Glam Rock. This was a very visual thing, shouty, 1950s-influenced pop music, performed by men who often wore face make up. This was exciting and often quite angry sounding music "Does anyone know the way to block buster?") and had me working up a sweat on the dancefloor until all hours. The next "big hoorays" of the 1970s were disco and punk. Disco I always felt was a very dancey move-on from soul and I adored it. It made me sing inside. Punk in the UK was blisteringly angry at the start. We had over a million unemployed. Punk declared that everything was worthless. There was NO FUTURE. Punk and disco were the two faces of mid-to-late 1970s music which helped to keep me sane. Towards the end of the '70s, we began to hear of New Wave. This ranged from a host of 1960s influenced music to some quirky - and in fact downright kooky stuff like "I Like 'Lectric Motors", which was recorded in 1979 and which I first heard in 1980. New Wave wasn't a genre in itself... more a convenient way of labeling an era. The 1980s launched in the UK with the New Romantics and a sudden onrush of synth pop. The Sugarhill Gang's "Rappers Delight" was in the pop charts here in late 1979 and early 1980 and at first we called hip hop "rap". It was after material like "The Message" and "White Lines" that I began to hear the name "hip hop" spoken to any great degree. "The Message" still sends cold shivers down my spine and my feet dancing across the room. This, of course, was soon joined by the arrival of break dancing in the UK and in 1983 the scene became huge. Once again, SO exciting. I never felt any hunger for new forms of music in the 1970s and 1980s. In the mid-1980s, the mighty Pet Shop Boys arrived, with their wonderfully dry lyrics and banging dance tunes like "Opportunities - Let's Make Lots Of Money" - music was getting bangier (not a real word, but I'm sure you'll get the picture!), faster... and in 1986 the first house song to chart in the UK was "Jack Your Body". It was a happy time for me, and when acid house broke large in 1988 I was euphoric. This was really the last youth scene in the UK that rattled the Establishment. I remember attending various raves, one in a field with lasers playing across the undersides of the few fluffy clouds that floated overhead... it was an all-nighter, of course... and it remains one of my favourite memories... This was how the music scene seemed as I lived through the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, I've become fascinated by how it all came to be. At the time, I read the music press ferociously and I've read loads since... Thanks for talking with me. I hope this long message hasn't bored you.
I think personal accounts are extremely important and while not exactly Wikipedia-ish per se I think they provide a valuable insight into an issue and to me this human element seems often overlooked on Wikipedia as if stomped into the ground. It's impossible to reevaluate and challenge existing prejudiced system on disco without coming off as a "revisionist" so this is hard on me, not to prove this as it was proven a billionth time before but to make people aware of this. How did you call hip-hop before it ever began? How did y- oh right, New Wave was called "new wave" from the very beginning but how much were you aware of disco share of influence on New Wave*? ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
*People went all "hurr durr disco sux" while at the same time they couldn't get enough of Knack "My Sharona," which has an obvious disco bass. Tell me this isn't disco with electric guitars, sixties melody and protopunk beat, and machismo lyrics. This is totally off the record though since a source this song having a disco influence does not exist in our print.
All this is fascinating. In the UK, the reason why post-Punk was so touted above post-disco was the fact that UK Punk was so political and challenging - it was thought by many music journos to have changed attitudes to fashion and music - and (I think) reflected youth attitudes about the way the country was being run. The influence of disco music has never been in doubt to me, but disco was what I unwound to. What I enjoyed. I'm also fascinated by the links between disco and soul - because soul music is another of my great loves. I did originally associate "new wave" with a return to 1960s style. We had a big revival in mid-1960s style in the UK at that time, and mods and rockers were very much back in vogue. This may sound bizarre to you, but a lot of what was labelled "new wave" in the UK in the late 1970s (The Jam, the Specials, etc) did not sound as modern as disco. By the end of the '70s, a lot of new pop music was being labelled "new wave" and it seemed to be an era thing, rather than referring to a particular genre. Later, new wave was not applied so vehemently in the UK. I'd given up on using the phrase by about 1983. As for hip hop, well, the first song I heard in that genre was the Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight", which was in the music charts as a single in late 1979 and early 1980. We called that "Rap". It was around 1982/1983, with the arrival of "The Message", "White Lines" and so on, that I began to hear the name "hip hop". It is difficult to avoid revisionism, I know. I did study popular music journals "back in the day", I still have a stack of newspapers and music mags from the 1980s, and they're a great aid to memory. A lot of what of I do here is simply based on my love of the music of my youth - and a desire to present things as they were. I enjoyed your edits to Garage music (North America) by the way. When it comes to getting things right, I believe you share my enthusuasm! Thanks for talking. A human side to Wikipedia is vital and chatting to you stimulates my mind and revs up the old memory banks! A quick post script: as for the prejudice against disco, there will always be what I term "small minds". I am aware of the issues there, and all we can do is continue the fight. There is prejudice against 1980s music in general too - I believe largely because this was the era of Reagan/Thatcher. And yet lots of 1980s music is distinctive, creative and wonderful (OK, my opinion!). Our best weapons (my opinion again) are highly reliable sources, a determination to continue - and keeping cool heads!
You are so right about new wave and I think it would be safe to assume new wave is not a genre at all I mean whatever that was/is it started rock-y punk-y then due to US (California) influence it switched to disco and even hi-NRG (Duran Duran's 1st album "Sound of thunder") so I can see why new wave is not and cannot be lumped under disco as a subgenre but it is feasible to portray it as a derivation. The other genre, hip hop, went beyond being a simple disco music derivation and while disco article recognizes that ("old school rap") I still find Wikipedia is not doing enough to recognize the connection between disco and hip-hop, portraying the latter as what it truly is, an indie form of disco. The original hip hop crews kept disco black which is the way it was supposed to be until Europeans (mostly Germans) turned it into something which ground Chicago-based Steve Dahl's gears. Not that I place the blame on Europeans but more on human stupidity actually. The 1980s: It's funny how some people love eighties and others hate it because a lot of "bad" was going on in the Eighties -- Nuclear holocaust fears, El Salvador, Iron Curtain in Europe, NY market crash of 1987 -- people were frightened and for better or worse it inspired people to create art (so if I get it right, to be frightened is, well, good for the art but bad for the people?) but also profit-driven garbage ("We are the World") yet the modern music, whether indie, neo R&B, or dance, was conceived in the same period of time which makes you go wow! Can't really picture Reagan or Thatcher dancing to the newest Michael Jackson record though, it's like two different timelines running inconsistent with one another in fact completely outside of it. And oh the music trends, it's so ridiculous how 2010s are more Eighties than the eighties themselves, don't you see it that way? ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 19:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for all these interesting thoughts. Firstly, I'd like to give you my impressions as a (then) twenty/thirty-something of the political scene in the 1980s. In the UK, it was fiercely polarised decade - Right Versus Left. Things exploded. There were riots, protests, yuppies, and shoulder pads. I was heavily aligned to the Left and it was a fabulous time in retrospect because people felt so strongly. It's interesting you speak of the Cold War and the Iron Curtain because I was terrified of the threat of Nuclear Winter as a child in the 1960s and a young adult in the 1970s and early 1980s. It was the arrival of Gorbachev which saw a rapid thawing of those particular fears. It's curious, but those fears really abated rapidly from 1985 onwards. People now write the 1980s up as one long nuclear-haunted nightmare. They weren't. I felt much more assured that it wasn't going to happen in the mid-to-late 1980s than I ever had in my life before. One half of the decade was very different from the other. The Stock Market Crash... wasn't 1987 a fabulously schizoid year? There were the yuppies, at their peak, and suddenly the year flipped and ripped the rug out from under them. The actual recession was felt later, more an early 1990s thing here in the UK. I do have to tell you that, much as I hated Thatcher, my diet and lifestyle improved dramatically in the 1980s. I'm almost loathe to admit that, but that's the way it was. The '80s sorted nothing. They were influential, of course, in retrospect, but at the time, in the UK, by their end, although things had changed dramatically (pondering the decade on New Year's Eve 1989 I found it hard to believe that 1980 had even been part of the same decade), nothing seemed set in stone. The '80s had simply been uproar. I regard the 1990s as the true turning point, when people blamed the 1980s, and basically seemed to say: "But we're much nicer now!" And they slouched and watched "57 channels and nothing on". I didn't think they were more caring, although they SAID they were. And blaming the 1980s and saying that the decade had decided the way things were was a terrific excuse to sit back and do nothing as New Labour betrayed all Labour supporters in the UK, passing legislation which would have had people screaming in protest had Thatcher tried it in the 1980s. Now, on to music. For me, hip hop is hip hop. It's closely linked to disco, of course, but I wouldn't call it an "indie" form of it. Disco features as a stylistic origin and that is enough I feel. Disco is disco. It's important. But it is something that cannot be something else. It stands alone, highly influential, but forever its own thing. Of course, its derivative of other things, and other things following it contain elements of disco in their make up, but that's how music progresses. Disco makes me feel a certain way, move a certain way, brings back memories of a certain era (for me 1976-1980). It's wonderful. And it is itself. Sorry if that sounds flowery - a bit 1960s in fact - but it's how it seemed to me at the time, and still seems today. As for New Wave, that was derivative of a lot of things, also progressive and innovative, but an umbrella term that I feel too much is made of. I think that many youngsters these days seem obsessed with labeling things - perhaps it's a kind of "computer mentality". I don't know! As for now... modern day EDM really does remind me of the 1980s a great deal... there's a wonderful song called "Pompeii" which could almost be about the 1980s... the lyrics even contain a 1980s song title - "left to my own devices"... it strikes me as a modern day view of the 1980s... a time when we apparently sat back, indulged in selfish pleasures and stopped caring... not terribly realistic in my estimation, but definitely a fascinating scenario for a song. I'll stop rambling. Good to hear from you - and I hope all this doesn't bore you too much!
The political and social landscape of the 1980s was ever-changing, sure, and it was the era of the acronyms, whether they talked about MTV or AIDS so the era basically seemed like a juxtaposition of both terrible and awesome things. I reckon the fear of the "bomb" was palpable only during the early 1980s (reflected by early 1980s movies like Threads in UK, The Day After in the US -- my personal favorite is the latter, it left a great impression on me as a kid even though I grew up in the '90s/early '00s as it was not as hilariously outdated as some other flicks out there and it can still be relevant even today) together with the fears of invasions of the Soviets on American soil yet only two years later they must have had a great laugh about it since the Soviets become a less of a threat with every year and it's not like the Nuclear situation was nearly as bad as it was in 1963 anyway, not that I want to downplay the fears of 1980s people even in slightest. I always hear only positive comments about Thatcher on how a "strong national icon" she was and everything and I feel like she is someone to look up to but frankly I do not know much about her, only that the Thatcher cabinet handed over Hong Kong to PRC and beside that I cannot really form a judgement about her politics.
I would not put it this way either but I can definitely see the so-called indie aspect about it where since the early hip-hop parties were essentially black disco parties with lot of rhymes thrown into it and that is from that book I shown you earlier. The way new wave is categorized under punk category just makes no sense since new wave is as anti-punk as it can get but whatever whereas hip-hop, house and new wave as well should be under disco category because there is an actual connection between these but I am not sure what this category should be called. On the side, I consider myself an "anti-nostalgia" type of person because the whole notion of "nostalgia" makes me feel silly but people with nostalgic inclination fascinate me but anyway you should go check out Sam Sparro's new album, I think you might like it. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 18:22, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll check it out, thanks! I'm quite "anti-nostalgia" myself. In viewing past eras as I get older, it's quite easy to say "It was a mixed time generally, but I enjoyed myself". Or not, as the case may be. Objectivity is the key. I really believe that categorizing things in the modern age has got a little out of hand. I'm not sure if New Wave was anti-Punk originally in the UK. It contained more 1960s influences at first (witness Paul Weller of The Jam - dubbed the "Mod father"!) but songs like "Eton Rifles" (1979) and "Going Underground"(1980)contained Punk influences I believe. But, not being into broader categorizations to any great degree, it doesn't really bother me. New Wave has become such an umbrella term - I find it practically meaningless these days! R&B and Soul music helped lead us to disco, hip hop, etc. The point is where do you begin? At the time, it always seemed that one thing influenced another, most musical forms contain multiple influences, but are still their own thing. I do recall that when the first Rap record charted in the UK in late 1979 ("Rappers Delight" - the Sugarhill Gang), we called it "Rap". It was after Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" in 1982 that I think the label "hip hop" began to filter into the UK. From then on, the genre seemed socially relevant, even challenging, it spoke of suffering, and also offered words of inspiration - ("The Crown", 1983). R&B, soul, disco, and other things are definitely part of the family tree of hip hop, but hip hop took time to evolve and just as disco isn't a sub-genre of "soul" but a genre in its own right, then hip hop is a genre in its own right too. Back to the UK political scene in the '80s, and Thatcher was a very controversial Prime Minister indeed! If you had started a conversation about whether she was a great politician or absolutely atrocious in the UK in the 1980s, then the conversation would have most likely raged for hours, with opposing views being heatedly express! Can I just ask, how did you finding growing up in the 1990s and early '00s? The technology? The fashions? The media? Education? Times were so different when I grew up, and I'd welcome some insights. Now I'm off to find that Sam Sparro album. Thanks for chatting.
He/she added "Hardbag" again on dance-pop page with stylistic origins field, which is not related. 183.171.174.231 (talk) 08:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
June 2014
Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Larry Levan may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "<>"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.
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AllmusicL>[{{Allmusic|class=explore|id=style/p156180|pure_url=yes}} Allmusic] - ((( Larry Levan )))], artists. Retrieved 2011-08-09</ref><ref>[{{Allmusic|class=explore|id=style/d13417|pure_url=yes}}
<ref>[{{Allmusic|class=explore|id=style/d13417|pure_url=yes}} Allmusic] -explore genre: post-disco], artists. Retrieved on 1-4-2010</ref>
1993|volume=1|issue=3|issn=1070-4701}}</ref><ref name=LarryNYT>Pareles, Jon (Nov 1992). Archives > "[http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/11/arts/larry-levan-38-his-tastes-shaped-dance-club-music.html
could you say why you are so set on categorizing this book as belonging in that category 'about antisemitism' - where are the RS saying it is about that - its not - its about poverty really. a work like 'the war against the jews' by lucy davidowicz, isn't that more the kind of book intended by the category 'works about antisemitism'. my opinion is not 'pointless' you rude editor - I have read the Orwell and know there is a Russian at the beginning who expresses anti-Jewish opinions - is that what you are asserting makes the book 'about antisemitism' ? wouldn't the category expand way beyond anything useful if so flimsy a thread was used to swell categories. (you've got some maid telling others to be polite on your talk page and you write as an edit summary - 'Don't include your pointless personal opinions as a reason to cancel my justified reversion.' - bit of a hypocrite really.)Sayerslle (talk) 00:19, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
at the moment there is nothing in the article about the description of encounters with Jews in the book so you are probably right it should be mentioned- , - but I definitely think so much in the lead about a pretty glancing content in the book is undue - maybe it could be discussed on the talk page for the book and more opinion than just us two could be gathered.Sayerslle (talk) 17:18, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
You are most definitely right. The entire ANI should be invited as well meanwhile cease your activity on the article or you might as well end up being blocked indefinitely from Wikipedia. Sincerely, ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
You are however right about this book not being a "work about antisemitism." I have corrected my mistake by applying a more general nondescript category. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 18:50, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
you are talking very irately there and I don't see what the hell I should be blocked indefinitely for. for not agreeing entirely with you over something. you are nasty. edit it how you like but if you edit wp it says you have to be prepared for others to edit also. Sayerslle (talk) 19:17, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
I came across this from your user talk page postings, ItsAlwaysLupus. Given that you have precisely zero edits to the article talk page your taking the issue to ANI, let alone your ssuggestion that anyone is going to get "blocked indefinitely" for disagreeing with you, is wildly premature. This is a collaborative project, and you could stand to do a lot more collaboration. Thanks! VQuakr (talk) 02:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Club music related to EDM?
Someone knows "club music" related to EDM. But there's no source. Can you figure it out? 183.171.169.52 (talk) 13:23, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
The way you put it sounds more like an initiation to a Sherlock Holmes' mystery. You know electronic dance music is merely an umbrella term that covers all the electronic dance music from electro-swing to electro music just like "electronica" does? It encompasses club music as well although club music is much much older than EDM since it started with hot jazz and whatnot but club music is today perceived as inseparable from EDM, sort of like hip-hop—contemporary R&B type of relation. Allmusic has a coverage on what they call Club/Dance which sounds like a misnomer but nevertheless it bridges EDM with club music. Oh and they cover "EDM", separately. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 21:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Talkback
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I might have came off a little strong I see that now but I can't un-demand it now. I am a little stubborn, aren't I? ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Not to worry. You're aware of it now, and that will make you cognizant of it when it comes up again. What did you think about what I said on my talk page about reforming the AN/ANI noticeboard process? Viriditas (talk) 08:36, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Can you keep an eye for the dance-pop page? 115.164.187.89 (talk) 15:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
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October 2014
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Warp 9
Hi It'sAlwaysLupus,
I'm contacting you regarding the Warp 9 page. A basic rule of Wikipedia editing is not to completely erase what another contributor/editor wrote. One can add to it, including references if desired, but never, never just erase what a Wikipedia contributor wrote! On a personal note, I diligently wrote and researched the information I provided on that page, was careful about the facts (used citations/references, and made sure the spelling and grammar were top notch. I will try to restore my contribution, and keep any further information you contributed, but frankly I'm shocked that you would flat out erase the information I worked so hard to provide. Peace! Magdalamar (talk) 03:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Update: I've restored my original edits and have incorporated your edits, resulting in a new page. I've moved some information around so that it makes sense but it's all there. Peace!Magdalamar (talk) 06:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Update: (Wednesday, Nov 5.) I've now reviewed the page, and it works very well, incorporating your edits and restoring all relevant information from my original page. As I mentioned, I inserted sentences into places where they were most relevant and made sense, without destroying the integrity of the edits so that the reader would have the optimal experience. The hard work (I believe) shows, making the most of both of our contributions. Peace!
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Damon C Scott the voice of Storm Queen/ look Right Through
Three months ago you did an update on the song " Look Right Through" a DJ MK remix. While I am finding all celebration on Morgan Geist the writer and MK there is little to none on the ONE consistent entity of this whole song.... The vocalist! From release to remix and on to number one they use the same awesome voice. Look him up Damon C Scott. Facebook, YouTube, damoncscott.net, soundcloud. Also linked to Chris Malinchak, Oscar G, Kenneth Bager, etc. you will be blown away. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyima1960 (talk • contribs) 21:43, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
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Post disco content use
Do you have any objection if the intro for the post-disco article is copied over to create a section on the electronic dance music article? I think you wrote most of it. Per CC BY-SA 3.0 License guidelines it's best to ask permission for such a copy paste. Semitransgenictalk. 11:34, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
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