User talk:Hchc2009/Archive 17

Cardiff Castle

Good morning Hchc2009. Do you have any appetite currently to look to move Cardiff Castle to FA? I'm casting around for a post-Chartwell project and CC is an obvious choice, although Chequers and Cragside are also tempting. Given its iconic status in Cardiff, I think it would generate a fair bit of interest. Not a problem at all if you're not interested, or have other articles on the go that you'd rather focus on. But it could be interesting, if you were of a mind to do it. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 09:25, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Could be convinced! What sort of sequence/process would you suggest for taking it there? Hchc2009 (talk) 11:47, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, not wanting to be presumptuous, given that you took it to GA and most of the text's yours but......! Two approaches immediately strike me as possible. Either, we keep its current, chronological, structure, and divide the work that way; say "Earliest times to the last of the Herberts" and "The Butes to the Present Day". Or, we follow the approach for Castell Coch and do a "History" followed by an "Architecture", and split it that way. I've a preference for the latter - just because, I think it would make for a better, clearer, article - but very happy for it to be your call. I think it's pretty comprehensive, well-cited, and well-sourced as it stands. You'll know better than me whether the historical/military sources need refreshing. I don't think there's that much I'd add to the Burgesian architectural sources, although the coverage could be considerably expanded, particularly if we followed the Coch, room-by-room, approach. There's probably about six that would merit detailed coverage; the Clock Tower, the Hall, The Library, The Arab Room, Bute's Bedroom. Then there's the Roman and faux-Roman bits, the Keep, the Animal Wall and the Park, and, of course, all of the pre-Burges architecture that sits under his additions. I think its current size will easily allow for expansion - it's just over half the size of Windsor Castle. It's stable, apart from the occasional, "it belongs to the people of Cardiff" debate. Its images could be improved a bit, I think, but Commons is stuffed with them. As to workload, happy to follow your lead - although obviously my knowledge, and my sources, are stronger in relation to the Victorian castle. I could certainly ask Dr Blofeld, if you wanted to spread the load a bit more, although I'm not sure he does FA these days and I don't know how much time you've got available. But, all in all, I think an expansion, with a refresh, then PR, followed by FAC looks very attainable. And it could be fun - I suspect it might generate a fair bit of interest and debate! Have a think and let me know. There's no hurry but if you felt you wanted to, it would be great. KJP1 (talk) 13:38, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

I like the sounds of it KJP1. How about we put in user space somewhere, I'd be happy to "have at it" in terms of creating an Architecture section from bits of the history section, and then we work on it from there? Hchc2009 (talk) 16:57, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Hchc2009, Terrific! I've never worked out how to open a second sandbox, and my original one is stuffed with the huge hulk of an H. H. Asquith re-write that Wehwalt, Tim Riley and I did for the 100th anniversary of his fall, but unfortunately it got stuck at FAC. I'd rather not overwrite this as it may get revived one day. If you tell me how to open a second, I'll do so and copy Cardiff there. Otherwise, just create one of your own and point me to it. I should say work's got rather busy this week, and will be so for the next two/three, so I won't be able to set to immediately. And I'm abroad the last two weeks of October. But PR and on to FAC before the end of the year is quite achievable. Hope this works for you and let me know about the sandbox. Really looking forward to it. KJP1 (talk) 17:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

p.s. Three quick points: Dr B isn't focussing on FA at present; if possible, could we use sfn references - I've forgotten how to do the others; and we should update the Mordaunt Crook to the 2013 revision. I've got it, so it's not a problem. KJP1 (talk) 18:38, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

It does make it easier to mutually edit as a joint project. I'll add a request for change on the original article tomorrow. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:48, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Very happy to follow your lead. KJP1 (talk) 19:59, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I've set up one here. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:05, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Right - I think it's now sfn'ed. Hope that's ok, it's the only one I can work with. Just a quick query on your schedule. I've got a busy couple of weeks and then I'm abroad from mid-October to the end of that month. I'd say I need a couple of weeks to pull the architecture together. Does a late Nov/early Dec PR work for you? KJP1 (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Rochdale

Hey! So I know I disappeared off the face of the Earth during the ACR (real life, lack of sleep, etc) but I've just picked up Rochdale Cenotaph again. I'm hoping to take it to FAC but I want to address your outstanding concern about the chronology from the ACR first. When you have a minute, could you compare it to User:HJ Mitchell/Sandbox3 and see if you think the draft is an improvement? Also, if you find the time, I'd really appreciate your feedback on Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Manchester Cenotaph. And if I can repay the favour, just let me know. Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:02, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Looking good, and great to have you back! A couple of quick thoughts:

• " Lutyens designed the Cenotaph on Whitehall in London, which became the focus for the national Remembrance Sunday commemorations and the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing, the largest British war memorial anywhere in the world." - Timewise, the paragraph is placing this just after the townhall meeting in Feb 1919. The London Cenotaph isn't built until July 1919, and the Thiepval Memorial isn't started until 1928, but it leaves the impression that these events have already happened. How about "Lutyens would design the Cenotaph on Whitehall in London, which became the focus for the national Remembrance Sunday commemorations and the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing, the largest British war memorial anywhere in the world."? (Or "would go on to design" if you wanted it even clearer?)
• "Rochdale's cenotaph is among seven Lutyens designed in England which were based on Whitehall's." - a minor point, but is this right? I thought Lutyens designed eight cenotaphs; Southampton's first, then Whitehall, then another six? Or am I miscounting? Hchc2009 (talk) 06:45, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

"Would go on to..." works for me. And yes, eight is correct. Obviously the design for Whitehall came first and influenced all the others but Southampton was built first; then not in order Rochdale, Manchester, Richmond, Reading, Maidstone, and Derby. There's also the oddity of Norwich, and there's another one in Cardiff and several more (with which Lutyens had varying degrees of involvement) across the Commonwealth. The man was prolific! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:16, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

'Ta - will a look at the Manchester review. If you've a few minutes, I've got the North-West Mounted Police up for ACR at the moment... Hchc2009 (talk) 11:23, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm just on my way out but I've left a few comments on the lead. I'll go through the rest of it when I get chance. I never imagined you being interested in colonial policing? Anyway, Rochdale's at FAC if you get chance to confirm you're happy with it and I'd love to hear what you've got on Manchester when I'm back online. Thanks! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:06, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Lutyens etc

Hi. Hope you don't mind me using your talk page to think out loud. It's starting to feel like I'm making some headway on my memorials project! Six have made it to featured article and four are in the pipeline (Rochdale, Manchester, Mells, and Edward Horner), which leaves just five with FA potential to go (Leicester, Southampton, Tower Hill, the Royal Naval Division, and the Civil Service Rifles), though there's an outside chance that the Lancashire Fusiliers War Memorial and the South African War Memorial, Richmond Cemetery could make the grade with a bit of work and scouring of the sources. The Fusiliers memorial would be especially pleasing to do given Lutyens' personal connection. At the current rate, five (or seven) featured articles might still take months or even another year or so—Manchester took me quite a while and I'm expecting Leicester to be another big project and Whitehall could be mammoth judging by the ever-growing pile of books on my coffee table. I finally caved and spent £35 on a copy of Hussey's The Life of Sir Edwin Lutyens I had no idea how big it was!.

Anyway, when I eventually do finish those, I want to write some sort of overview article to tie together all the strands that are spread across 40-something articles but I'm slightly lost as to what to call it or how to scope it. I see two options: Edwin Lutyens and the First World War (or some variation) which I worry might be plagiarising Tim Skelton, or Edwin Lutyens and war memorials with a narrower scope which could have a sister article like Edwin Lutyens and the Imperial War Graves Commission. I'd love to do the man's biography, but Hussey weighs nearly as much as I do so that really would be an undertaking! Looks like I've got a lot on my plate, especially if I want to do some non-Lutyens memorials (Bristol Cenotaph is a red link for example!)! I'd love to hear any thoughts you had when you've got time; I'll ping KJP1 and Carcharoth as well because they've both followed this project at various points. PS, I left some comments at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/North-West Mounted Police in case you haven't seen them. And PPS, have you considered taking the Royal Artillery Memorial to FAC? Sorry for the brain dump; hope you don't mind. All the best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Not at all! Hussey's 600-odd pages long, isn't it? Definitely a monster. I reckon you could do Edwin Lutyens and war memorials, and reasonably include the IWGC work in there... That would avoid it covering all his works (which would be an even larger project), but would give coverage of the big WWI items. I've been meaning to get the Royal Artillery Memorial to FAC for a while, but haven't quite got around to it! Hchc2009 (talk) 11:42, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: It is difficult to divide the topic up neatly. One approach might be to look at the article on Template:Commonwealth War Graves Commission (I created that, but someone added a Hong Kong subgroup that I'm not sure should have that prominence) and how things are organised at Commonwealth War Graves Commission and consider which areas are best served by focusing on Lutyens (or indeed other architects). Maybe also look at the chapter headings and organisation of the Hussey book on Lutyens and see how that is divided up, and use that as a guide for where to do sub-articles. Thiepval Memorial is the obvious big target. I have been hoping to get to that, but am resigned to the fact that someone else will get there first, but will join in then if that happens. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 11:17, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

(re Hchc) 600 pages and it weighs a ton! From a quick skim, there's a lot on his personality and relationships but the war memorials (barring the cenotaph, of course) just get a mention here and there, usually when they cross the narrative of some other project (eg Delhi and the India Gate). That seems fairly typical of Lutyens' biographies (I appear to be accumulating every word written about the man!). I think and war memorials is probably the way I'll go, but I'm reluctant to get too far into his IWGC work there just because there are so many cemeteries and they would overwhelm the article. They probably deserve an article, or at least a listicle, of their own. Anyway, I want to do the individual memorials first so those decisions are a while away I suppose. Once I'm finished in Mells, I'm either going to Leicester or following Arthur Asquith to the Royal Naval Division, but I haven't decided which yet. As for the RA, you've got all the material there. I've added a few little bits this morning and added some of the general works on war memorials to the bibliography; there are a few others I'll add tomorrow. If it were 'my' article, I'd introduce a couple more section headings and maybe put the post-commissioning history after the design, but (as I'm sure you know) all the information is there. With an afternoon's work, it should sail through FAC.

@Carcharoth: Thanks for that, that could be useful. As mentioned above, Hussey is huge and the war memorials don't get extensive coverage but I'll mull it over. Thiepval is very much on my list, but I was planning on doing all his English memorials first, of which I've got five left, including Leicester, Southampton (though Hchc has done the bulk of the work there already), and of course Whitehall, all of which are extensively covered, so it's unlikely to be this side of Christmas. I wouldn't mind being beaten to it or collaborating if you were up for it. Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:33, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: You may want to look at List of works by Charles Holden, which is one way to list cemeteries. You (and others reading this) may also be interested in this exhibition (running until 19 November). Carcharoth (talk) 13:49, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

HJ Mitchell - "Lutyens and his English War Memorials"? Or, slightly more pompous, "The English War Memorials of Sir Edwin Lutyens"? It narrows the scope - although not by that much! - allows for a complementary "The Overseas War Memorials..." down the line, and both would make nice bookends to Edwin Lutyens, perhaps with an "Indian Architecture of Sir Ed.....", when we're drawing our pensions. Give us a shout if you need help, or anything from Pevsner. Spent an interesting half hour at the Rochdale memorial yesterday, but the light was no good for photos. KJP1 (talk) 16:43, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

User:Johnboddie/sandbox

Hi P, I see you were the FAC nom on Henry III of England. Mike plans to run this one at TFA in October, but it's not scheduled yet. My partner John is working on the TFA blurb in his sandbox; please feel free to jump in with edits or suggestions. - Dank (push to talk) 16:00, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Will take a look! Hchc2009 (talk) 11:34, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Rochford Castle

Was there one? If so, do we know of a location which, I'm guessing, is Rochford, Essex? I saw that there may be one in the section of this very good article that a friend of mine has written. I used to live nearby and was curious; obviously, I thought I'd come to the most knowledgeable person I know on the matter. Cassianto^Talk 18:08, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

There are a couple... Rochford Motte in Worchestershire, which was a simple motte and bailey castle, and Rochford Tower in Lincolnshire, a fortified medieval house. Rochford in Essex was originally centred on a manor called Rochford Hall, until it became a town in the middle of the 13th century and shifted its main centre to the new marketplace on what is now West Street and Horner's Corner. I can't find any reference to an actual castle, so I think the Mowbray article is referring to Rochford Hall. Hope that helps! Hchc2009 (talk)

It does indeed, thank you. The only castle I know of around a 30 mile radius of Rochford is the one at Hadleigh; although, I believe, Rayleigh, at some point, had a castle. Anyway, I shall hot foot it over to the GAN and report my findings. Best regards, as always. Cassianto^Talk 10:10, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Henry III of England scheduled for TFA

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Thank you for "one of England's longest reigning, but probably least successful, kings. Revolts, retreats, holy relics - his reign had it all."! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:26, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 September 15#King who died with a hot poker up the ass

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 September 15#King who died with a hot poker up the ass. Hello Hchc2009. As one of the most prolific editors of the Edward II of England article, would you mind leaving a comment or a !vote as to whether King who died with a hot poker up the ass should be deleted? Thanks. --Nevé–selbert 13:50, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Royal Artillery Memorial

Hello! :) As you've probably seen I've been tinkering with the Royal Artillery Memorial. I needed a small task I could get stuck into but still put down while I dealt with some things. I was only going to add a few books to the bibliography but I ended up adding about 500 words of prose as well (King has quite a lot on it). Do you have a copy of Jay Winter's Sites of Memory, Sites of Mourning? I've been scouring mine but he doesn't seem to have anything to say about either the RA memorial or Jagger in general. It seems odd that such an important memorial would be completely ignored so I was hoping you might be able to sanity check me. And on the subject of that memorial ... would I be stepping on your toes excessively if I was to re-structure it slightly? I don't plan to re-write anything you've written, but I'd like to move some of the history section to the end so that the article finishes with the most recent events and its current status, and split what's left of the history section into two or three sections, including moving the first paragraph into a background section. I can mock up an example in a sandbox for you to criticise and hack at if you like. I'll defer to you because I know I get quite protective of 'my' articles when I write something that's actually decent! Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:11, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Apologies for the short/hasty reply - am juggling a couple of bits and pieces! From memory, I don't think Jay does cover the memorial. I remember thinking that this was odd at the time I did the original draft... I like the idea of a mockup in a sandbox, btw. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:34, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

No worries on that front; I've been travelling for a few days anyway. Actually managed to get to Hyde Park Corner to see the RA memorial again, and went up to the top of the Wellington Arch to see it from the there (a fiver well spent!). And I picked up another book for the bibliography. Here's the mockup of the restructuring I'm suggesting: User:HJ Mitchell/Sandbox3. I'd add another sentence or two of general background on WWI and there might be a little bit more that can go in the history section, then it needs a bigger lead and some minor polishing and it should be FAC ready if you're okay with that. Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:48, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

My slight concern with that sequencing is that a) the commissioning etc. is part of its history, and b) we end up with the unveiling etc. being after the critical reception, which seems odd. I've suggested an alt version, going Background, Commissioning, Critical reception, Later history, Design and symbolism, which I think would stick with the chronology in the sections, taking the reader through from the start to the current day - see what you think. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:26, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. You're right that it makes sense to have the unveiling and critical reception in that order. My only slight quibble is that I think we should leave the reader in the present day, with the recent(ish) restoration (there's a couple of sentences I can add about that from the EH guidebook), heritage status, which also leaves an obvious place to note any future developments, rather than with a discussion about its symbolism. Not something I'd lose sleep over, but it's the way I'd do it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:20, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Jul to Sep 2017 Milhist article reviewing

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		On behalf of the Milhist coordinators, you are hereby awarded the WikiChevrons for reviewing a total of nine Milhist articles at PR, GAN, ACR or FAC during the period Jul to Sep 2017. Thank you for supporting Wikipedia's quality content processes. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:03, 3 October 2017 (UTC) Keep track of upcoming reviews. Just copy and paste {{WPMILHIST Review alerts}} to your user space

VMT! Hchc2009 (talk) 17:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

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Cooling Castle GAN

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Cardiff Castle

Morning Hch, hope you're well. I think the Victorian castle is done. Can you have a look and see what you think. I wonder if a bit more on the post-Burges castle is needed in the Architecture section, or whether Grant etc. are sufficiently covered in the History? KJP1 (talk) 11:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi Hch - are you off-Wiki at the moment? It would be good to get your thoughts on Cardiff but there's really no hurry if real life is intruding. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 15:32, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Framlingham

The very moment that I saw the caption on your userpage photo of Framlingham, I thought: "aha! Fake Flues!" :) DBaK (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

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Precious five years!

Precious

Five years!

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Discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/XVIII Tranche Project Audit

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Cardiff Castle

KJP1 with an unfinished article

Wish you were here! KJP1 (talk) 06:37, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

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Happy Saturnalia!

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		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and troll-free and you not often get distracted by dice-playing. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:55, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

You too! Hchc2009 (talk) 10:03, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

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Thanks Peacemaker! Hchc2009 (talk) 10:04, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Cardiff

H, as you're about, I shall make a last attempt. Having done Cragside, I am in need of a project. I'd like to do Cardiff. If you are no longer interested, or really don't like my Victorian section, just let me know and I shall have a go on my own. But I would far prefer it to be the collaboration we originally intended. KJP1 (talk) 17:31, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

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The article Skenfrith Castle you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Skenfrith Castle for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Sturmvogel 66 -- Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:04, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

United States Marine Corps Women's Reserve

Hello, Hchc2009 – Since I had copy-edited United States Marine Corps Women's Reserve a few weeks ago, I have it on my watch list, and just now out of curiosity I looked at the GA review page at Talk:United States Marine Corps Women's Reserve/GA1. I'm glad you found the prose acceptable, and your comments contain valid points. There is one, though, that I think you might have made when distracted, and I thought I'd leave you a note here to give you an opportunity to correct it. After "well-written", you have two sections of comments, (a) and (b). About half-way through the (a) group, you wrote this:

• "along the lines of the men's uniform." > "mens' uniform"?

Since "men" is the plural form of "man", there is no need to add an "s". It's already plural. Thus, the possessive apostrophe belongs after the plural word, "men". I believe it was correct as it was, and your suggested change is incorrect. If you agree, you might consider striking that one. Best regards, and Happy New Year!  – Corinne (talk) 15:46, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Probably worth copying over to the review page...? Hchc2009 (talk) 15:48, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

If that's what you want, I'd be glad to. I thought you might prefer just to strike (using the <s>...</s> code on either side) what you wrote. Let me know. (You can also move my comment there, if you want to.)  – Corinne (talk) 15:51, 31 December 2017 (UTC)