User talk:Doug Weller/Pinxton Castle

Some sources

http://www.ecastles.co.uk/pinxton.html, http://www.pinxtonparishcouncil.co.uk/a-history-of-pinxton.html, https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1010025?section=official-list-entry, https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-2300-1/dissemination/pdf/071/DAJ_v071_1951_068-069.pdf, http://www.ecastles.co.uk/index.html, https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=MDR5890&resourceID=1023, https://her.derbyshire.gov.uk/Monument/MDR5890, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Gwrt_Moated_Site, https://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English%20sites/803.html, Doug Weller talk 12:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Wrong castle

@Moxy: I really appreciate your helping here, but that's another castle. See the photos on my talk page for instance..Doug Weller talk 13:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

lol omg Moxy🍁 14:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Just checking

Doug - apologies, living in a house that is being rebuilt around us, is preventing me from spending as much time on here as I might like. Just wanted to check you are ok with me messing around directly? I can certainly put notes here if you'd prefer. It's just with things like the NHLE citation template, it's quicker to do it, than to explain it! Let me know. KJP1 (talk) 09:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• The first oddity which strikes is that the Historic England (HE) listing report says details of the 1950s excavation carried out by the Pinxton Archaeological Society are lost, and yet you have them! Aren't they G. E. Monk's Report in the Derbyshire Archaeological Journal? As an aside, and if you could be bothered, HE are pretty good at making minor alterations to their reports. The great Peter Vardy sends them updates all the time, arising from his amazing listed building lists. But they can only make minor amends. As the listing is a statutory document, anything major requires approval from the Secretary of State (in name at least) and that is much harder to obtain. KJP1 (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
• I love the "casual visit" by Mortimer Wheeler in the Derbyshire CC report. That is definitely worth a mention.
• As per Hen Gwrt Moated Site, I tend to start with a History and then give a Description. One can do it the other way around, but I've found that readers (at least FA reviewers) prefer the "who/when/why" followed by the "what".
• On the point of contradictions, Hen Gwrt also has this. All the old sources, Joseph Bradney's A History of Monmouthshire from the Coming of the Normans into Wales down to the Present Time etc., claim that the manor was the home of Dafydd Gam. But there's actually not a scrap of evidence to support this, and all the modern sources say it's rubbishy local lore. So, I tend to just report the historical view, but indicate that it is not supported by modern research.
• As at Hen, you may want a section on archaeological investogations at the site. This is the record of the 1918 survey carried out by W. Stevenson, [1]. He was very prolific, [2]. Could he be this guy, W. H. Stevenson? Doubtful? My go-to on such matters is User:Richard Nevell, who knows a very great deal more than I do about this period. It would be worth dropping him a note in any event, as he will almost certainly be aware of any specialist sources on the site.
• The sources are certainly strong enough to support an article. There is some repetition, as is common, the Gatehouse Gazetteer basically reproduces HE's listing record. The Heritage Gateway record is the same. I've no idea whether you intend to take the article through any of the approval stages (GA etc.), but note that, certainly at FA, there is a suspicion of "local sources", parish newsletters etc., as it is generally felt they don't meet the RS requirements for fact-checking/editorial oversight etc. In this case, the Pixton Parish History looks rather good and provides some useful background on the village. I'd certainly use it, but it may be challenged.
• A History of Pixton - another question about this, who wrote the Castle section? I'm sure it's not the "local worthy" W. G. Barrett referenced at the start of the History section. I think it's the W. W. 1959 report referenced in Derbyshire CC's record. He was presumably the man from the Ministry of Works (United Kingdom), HE's predecessor. He is delightfully scathing about the Pixton Arch. Soc.s efforts!

KJP1's suggestions are spot on. I don't have much more insight, but that won't stop me waffling on.

The Archaeology Data Service has a scan of Stevenson's article: Stevenson, William (1918). "Pinxton Castle". The Derbyshire Archaeological Journal. 40: 78–84. doi:10.5284/1065737.

You probably already spotted that if you were looking at the Gatehouse Gazetteer, but I only checked the list after looking the PDF up myself.

The article lists him as William Stevenson, but I couldn't find anything more about him in that volume of the journal. He could be W. H. Stevenson but the Pinxton article doesn't appear in the bibliography by Harald Kleinschmidt. Omissions happen of course, and it's plausible but not conclusive either way.

The National Heritage List for England entry probably needs modifying since there is the short note on the 1950s excavations. It doesn't cover all the work as there were plans for the next year, and Heritage Gateway indicates that it was the detailed records that were lost.

Heritage Gateway mentions a geophysical survey in 1997 but gives no further detail. It doesn't appear on the Archaeology Data Service's website, and the 1994 investigations appear to have produced little of note (a desk based assessment followed by fieldwalking and trenching). The Pinxton and Normanton History Society has a Facebook page so I've messaged them in case they know about the geophys.

The earthworks show up reasonably well on Lidar which is available under an Open Government Licence. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Just noting that a Lidar image from one of those layers is already on Commons.—Odysseus1479 00:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Odysseus1479 and this article would be the first to use it. Excellent! KJP1 (talk) 06:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm about 95% sure that the William Stevenson who wrote about Pinxton is William Stevenson (Q51683442). His obituary says he lived in Alfreton from 1906 to 1921 and "dedicating the remainder of his years to his archaeological studies and to literary work, both antiquarian and technical". Alfreton is about four miles from Pinxton. Unfortunately I didn't spot an obituary in the Derbyshire Archaeology Journal which might clear this up so it's not a nailed on certainty but it's pretty likely.

And this William Stevenson is the father of W. H. Stevenson, so not far off first time round! Richard Nevell (talk) 23:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Richard Nevell - Good spot! I thought our W. H. Stevenson sounded a bit more like an archival historian than an archaeologist, but it’s interesting that I likely wasn’t so far out. Thanks greatly for your additional comments. I’m sure there is now enough as the basis for an interesting article. KJP1 (talk) 23:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@KJP1@Richard Nevell@Odysseus1479 Thanks. First, sure, mess around if you want. I haven't read all of the above but I have a paper copy of the Stevenson article I was able to purchase. I hope tomorrow or Friday I can read the above as carefully as it deserves. I really can't thank you all enough. Doug Weller talk 16:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I just notice the dates - I'm amazed I haven't looked at this for so long, sorry. I'll try to find a contact for Peter Vardy and ask about any updates. Doug Weller talk 16:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Richard Nevell You say the National Heritage List for England entry probably needs modifying since there is the short note on the 1950s excavations - but who would do that? I don't know why I didn't think of the Pinxton and South Normanton Historical Society FB page. I've even posted to that in the past. I looked for the archaeological society but that's defunct so far as I can tell. Doug Weller talk 18:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Isn't the Castle section of the History of Pinxton in part the same as these? With the two Monk articles and the 1918 Stevenson article as sources. Doug Weller talk 19:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm hoping to get a video taken last month. Found someone on the FaceBook page who posted one. Doug Weller talk 19:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• I'm going to keep an eye on this if that's ok. Don't want to take the wind from Doug Weller's sails but I'll help as I can. —DIYeditor (talk) 18:20, 26 May 2024 (UTC)