User talk:Awater01

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Happy editing! I dream of horses ^{(Contribs) (Talk)} 03:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 2023[edit]

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for edit warring combined with noticeable incivility.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text at the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but this is really absurd. I'm restoring a page to its original version and now I'm blocked? Can you explain this, because this is just shocking. Awater01 (talk) 18:00, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The first paragraph of the policy against edit warring should already answer this question quite sufficiently. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: I was the one who went to the talk page! Even though this exact same discussion was already resolved long time ago. And now I am banned. This is really absurd. Seriously, what the hell is this? Awater01 (talk) 18:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: Seriously what are you doing here? The user who reported me instigated the edit war himself and is not capable of having a sensible discussion on the TP, but you're banning me? Can you explain this absurd action? Awater01 (talk) 18:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: And btw, you're talking about not being civil, even when he started calling me 'nothing more than a nationalist Dutch (sic)'. Again, what is this? Awater01 (talk) 18:11, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Awater01 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I restored the page to its original version when the other user instigated an edit war himself. But he reported me and now I'm banned? This is really absurd. I was even the one who went to the talk page. Awater01 (talk) 18:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Decline reason:

Restoring the article to its original version can still be edit warring, and it is possible to edit war, and post on the talk page. You do not address your incivility. I think an unblock should be possible in this case, but you need to accept you were edit warring, and you were uncivil. PhilKnight (talk) 19:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

@PhilKnight:It was certainly not my intention to edit war, only to bring the article back to its original state. If that's edit warring, then fine, I won't do it again. With regard to being uncivil, I'm sorry, but the user simply had nothing sensible to say and was edit warring himself. Sure, I didn't react very nice, but neither was he (e.g. he started insulting me by calling me a nationalist). However, if my responses are not allowed, then I obviously won't do it again. Awater01 (talk) 20:02, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bans and blocks are not the same; this is a block. Blocks can be created with an automatic expiry date, especially if there are reasons to believe that similar behavior will not continue after the date. Where such reasons are not obvious, an indefinite block can be helpful to ensure that a proper unblock request is made first. Such a request should demonstrate an understanding of what led to the block and why it was disruptive. It should also explain why others can be sure that the behavior won't continue in the future. Ideally, it should additionally describe which helpful contributions are currently prevented by the block, as specific as possible.

Regarding "not capable of having a sensible discussion on the TP", in an unblock discussion about a civility-related block, I'm afraid the block duration was a fine choice and there is currently no reason to believe it should be reduced.

The block is about your behavior, not others' behavior. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: So you get to decide that just like that? This is really kafkaesk. I'm sorry but this is really unbelievable. The user who reported has really no clue of what he's talking about. When I say "not capable of having a sensible discussion on the TP", then that's merely my opinion of his way of arguing; it makes no sense whatsoever.

It would also be nice if you explain why I, and not the other user, am the one who's blocked? He's the one who started the edit war. I'm the one who restored the page to its original version when there already had been a resolved (!) discussion on the exact same matter some time ago. Can you please explain that? This is unfair to the extent that it becomes absurd. Awater01 (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: Can you explain to me why I am disruptive, even though I'm the one who's seeking a discussion and starting one, even though I'm the one who's restoring the page to its original version. Awater01 (talk) 18:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You have been edit warring, and you have been incivil. That's the explanation. Neither discussion nor others' behavior makes you exempt from these two policies. I'm currently cleaning up the talk page discussion at Talk:Baruch Spinoza#Nationality which is unfortunately full of personal attacks and lacks a focus on the article content. Yes, it does contain completely unnecessary remarks from both sides of the discussion. Yes, it may have been, or still be, reasonable to block more than just one editor in this matter. I've found one who clearly violated two policies and blocked them; there is not a single policy-based argument against the block here on this page so far. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In case it isn't clear and relieves you, there will be at least one other administrator independently reviewing the block in response to your request above, and the request will either become green or red depending on their response. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:40, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: So a sentence like: 'It's really astonishing, the confidence with which you're bragging your ignorance.' Is what you call a personal attack? And is a reason to block someone? Seriously, what are you talking about? This man is quoting a book, brags about me not having read it, even though he clearly didn't even read it himself; the information he denied was in the book was evidently already in the preface! But then I can't call him ignorant?

Really, I don't understand this at all. If you look at the archives of the page, then you see that the exact same discussion was held some time ago. Then some guy comes along who clearly has an agenda, makes contributions in bad English, starts multiple edit wars, provides the most ridiculous arguments in a discussion, doesn't accept general agreement in scholarly work (I have supplied more than enough!) and at the end snitches me at the admin board when I don't agree with him. But I get blocked. Really, if this is Wikipedia in 2023, then it's better for me to leave. Awater01 (talk) 18:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: I have noticed that you removed a personal attack of user PepGuardi on the discussion page of Spinoza. May I ask why I'm honored with a block and he apparently doesn't have to face the same kind of consequences? This man was edit warring first, insulted me by calling me a nationalist, but I'm the one with a block. How is this possible? Slightly hypocritical don't you think? Awater01 (talk) 20:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Awater01 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

It was certainly not my intention to edit war, only to bring the article back to its original state. If that's edit warring, then fine, I won't do it again. With regard to being uncivil, I'm sorry, but the user simply had nothing sensible to say and was edit warring himself. Sure, I didn't react very nice, but neither was he (e.g. he started insulting me by calling me a nationalist). However, if my responses are not allowed, then I obviously won't do it again. Awater01 (talk) 19:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Decline reason:

Saying "if this was wrong, I won't do it again" is analogous to "if I offended you, I apologize". Either you think what you did was wrong or you don't. Only you can control your actions. If others are acting inappropriately towards you, you shouldn't fight fire with fire, you should use proper procedures and remain civil. I'm not convinced that your actions won't recur, and for that reason I am declining your request. 331dot (talk) 20:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

@331dot:I really don't follow you at all. The unblock wanted a reason, so I gave one. Am I not implying exactly what you want to hear? Yes, I believe that what I did was wrong and I won't do it again. Awater01 (talk) 21:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I would want to hear more than "I won't do it again", I would want to hear how- how will you resolve editing disputes? What will you do when a discussion gets heated? But my review puts an end to my involvement here; your new request will be reviewed by a heretofore uninvolved admin and any decision will be between them and the blocking admin. 331dot (talk) 21:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@331dot:Jesus Christ man, the pettiness of this is really beyond believe. I was personally attacked and offended first, I gave a mild (yes personal) response (which was of course not good) and now I am banned? I mean, come on! Okay, I shouldn't ever give the same reaction back, but seriously, you people act as if I just committed a genocide here.

So you want to hear ' how- how will you resolve editing disputes'. By the same way as I have been resolving them over the past 15 years here? By giving arguments based on scientific sources. Which is a lot more than what most users give, including the person who attacked me first. Awater01 (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Three unblock requests and we haven't yet even passed the point where WP:NOTTHEM doesn't need to be mentioned anymore.

I'll prevent further edits for 72 hours while leaving the latest request open. Please read WP:GAB and take more time before writing the next appeal. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Awater01 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

What do I need to say more? I explained my opinions and actions and yes, I believe that what I did was wrong and I won't do it again. What more do you want to hear? I usually give the arguments based upon sources, I did that here as well, unfortunately these responses weren't read. What can I do more? I mean, I need to explain how I resolve editing disputes? By giving objective scientific sources, like I always do. How else? Awater01 (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Decline reason:

If, communicating like this, you feel like you have exhausted your options, you have probably made the case for remaining blocked more clearly than any of us could. Can you not see how to an objective reader that by treating this as some sort of guessing game you seem to see this process as some sort of unwelcome obligation and nothing more? How your impatience and frustration suggest that the same problems that got you blocked will recur soon enough after you are unblocked, if you are?

At three unproductive unblock requests we sometimes revoke talk page access. I'm not doing that right now because good faith tells me there might yet be the possibility that you will understand what is being asked of you. But if you decide to make another unblock request and it's just like these other ones, I would strongly recommend to that reviewing admin that your talk page access be revoked. — Daniel Case (talk) 06:39, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Socks blocked[edit]

Block evasion usually doesn't work. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:44, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree:@331dot: Again, and you're probably not going to believe me, I'm not a sock puppet for either of those users. Yes, I know one of those users, but again: that's not me. The other user - Berboel something - is someone I don't even know and is also completely uninvolved in the discussion. This means that you banned two people who are completely innocent, one of which doesn't even have anything to do with this 'discussion'; the fact that he was mentioned is pure paranoia from the guy who mentioned him.

Having said that. It seems to me that this whole thing is blown out of proportions completely. I was not very nice, that's true, and I apologize for that. The edit warring was also not good, I apologize for that as well. However, like you said: 'it takes two for an edit war'. The other user participated in that just as well. And as you know, the other user also made some personal attacks on me; you even deleted them, so you know this. Why am I the only one, it seems, who gets the blame for everything? Only because the other user was the first to complain about me? I'm really baffled by the way Wikipedia apparently functions.

The situation is now that someone who evidently knows next to nothing about what he writes, gets his way. The current info in the article is contradicting common knowledge and all the major authors (Curley, Popkin, Nadler, Encyclopedia Britannica, you name them), even the reference where the sentence was originally based on. The article now is seriously flawed. Is this all in the benefit of the Wikipedia project? Awater01 (talk) 03:51, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Someone who evidently knows next to nothing about what he writes". After three unblock declines. After a temporary talk page access revocation. All while blocked for incivility. Enough. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 06:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 2023[edit]

Your ability to edit this talk page has been revoked as an administrator has identified your talk page edits as inappropriate and/or disruptive.

(block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • abuse filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, you should read the guide to appealing blocks, then contact administrators by submitting a request to the Unblock Ticket Request System.
Please note that there could be appeals to the unblock ticket request system that have been declined leading to the post of this notice.

~ ToBeFree (talk) 06:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]