User:Skäpperöd/MedcomRfC

<Draft> Request for comment

Background

This RfC is intended to build consensus on several issues regarding the content of the articles Lutici and Pomerania during the High Middle Ages.

Michalek's map of Boleslaw's 1121 campaign

File:Wrymouth expedition pomerania lutici.png reproduces the information contained in a map by

• Andrzej Michałek (2007): Słowianie - Słowianie Zachodni. Monarchie wczesnofeudalne [The Slavs - West Slavs. Early feudal monarchies,] Bellona, p. 102,

a snippet of which is viewable here. The caption (in the original as well as in the reproduction) reads: "The Expedition of Boleslaw the Wrymouth to Szczecin and against the Lutici in 1121," circles are explained as "concentration of forces," arrows as "directions of Boleslaw's march and attacks." The map was recently introduced to the following articles:

• Conversion of Pomerania
• Lutici
• Pomerania during the High Middle Ages

Q: Should File:Wrymouth expedition pomerania lutici.png be included in the articles? Comments should address the following disputed issues

• Reliability of Michalek?
• Compliance with WP:PSTS - good or bad summary of secondary sources?
• Is Michalek's view authorative or does it fail WP:UNDUE / WP:EXCEPTIONAL?

Joint Danish-Polish expedition

The wording we agree on here will be introduced to Pomerania during the High Middle Ages#List of Polish campaigns, a table listing year(s) in the first column, and details in the second column.

Proposal A (current wording)

Sometime between 1121-1130

Joint Polish-Danish invasion of Rügen. The Rani accepted Polish suzerainty but Polish control didn't last.[1]

Footnote:

^[1] Andrzej Michałek (2007). Słowianie Zachodni. Monarchie wczesnofeudalne. Bellona. p. 102. ISBN 978-83-11-10737-3.

Proposal B

1129 or 1130[1]

Niels (Nicholas) of Denmark sieged Usedom (Orna/Osna), and after negotiating a treaty pursued to take Wolin (Julin/Jumne) with military support of Boleslaw III Wrymouth of Poland.[2] Before Boleslaw's forces left, Richeza (also Ryksa or Rikizza, Boleslaw's daughter) joined the Danish forces to stay with her future husband Magnus (Niels' son), cementing the Danish-Polish alliance.[2] When the Danish fleet had sailed to the Strelasund, Wartislaw I of Pomerania went aboard to negotiate, but failed to achieve favorable results.[2] In the outcome, Wartislaw most likely had to again accept Boleslaw's overlordship,[3] and Boleslaw and Niels may have specified their mutual spheres of interest regarding the areas around Rügen and the estuaries of the Peene and Oder rivers.[4]

Footnotes:

^[1] Christiansen, Eric: Saxo Grammaticus. Danorum Regum Heroumque Historia. Books X-XVI (British Archaeological Reports (BAR). International Series, vol. 84), Oxford 1980, p. 305: "Nicholas' expedition cannot be dated before 1128, since the biographers of Otto record no Danish attack up to that year. By Christmas 1130 Magnus had more than one child by Ryksa, according to Saxo (v. inf. 126); therefore the spring of 1129 is the likeliest date." Gaethke, Hans-Otto: Saxo und die Geschichte der Ranen auf Rügen in der 1. Hälfte des 12. Jahrhunderts, in Tore Nyberg (ed.): Saxo and the Baltic region (University of Southern Denmark studies in history and social sciences, vol. 275), Odense 2004, pp. 115-141, here p. 131, agrees on Otto von Bamberg's 1128 mission as terminus post quem, but as terminus ante quem prefers 7 January 1131, when Knud, who took part in the expedition, had died.

^[2] Primary source: Saxo Grammaticus, Gesta Dan. XIII.5.2-3. In secondary literature, cf. Steffen, Wilhelm: Kulturgeschichte von Rügen bis 1815 (Veröffentlichungen der Historischen Kommission für Pommern, Reihe V: Forschungen zur pommerschen Geschichte, vol. 4), Cologne/Graz 1963, p. 42; Eggert, Oskar: Geschichte Pommerns, vol. 1, Hamburg 1974, p. 54; Gaethke, Hans-Otto: Königtum im Slawenland östlich der mittleren und unteren Elbe im 12. Jahrhundert, in Neitmann, Klaus & Neugebauer, Wolfgang (eds.): Jahrbuch für die Geschichte Mittel- und Ostdeutschlands, vol. 46 (2000 [2001]), pp. 1-111, here pp. 30-32.

^[3] Eggert, Oskar: Geschichte Pommerns, vol. 1, Hamburg 1974, p. 54; Gaethke, Hans-Otto: Königtum im Slawenland östlich der mittleren und unteren Elbe im 12. Jahrhundert, in Neitmann, Klaus & Neugebauer, Wolfgang (eds.): Jahrbuch für die Geschichte Mittel- und Ostdeutschlands, vol. 46 (2000 [2001]), p. 1-111, here pp. 32: "Fürst Wartislaw sah sich zur Unterwerfung gezwungen, bedingungslos, wie es scheint, und gewiß unter die Hoheit Boleslaws III. Sein Versuch, wenigstens mit König Niels zu einer Verständigung zu gelangen, mißlang."

^[4] Büttner, Bengt: Die Pfarreien der Insel Rügen. Von der Christianisierung bis zur Reformation, Cologne 2007, p. 27, referencing Skyum-Nielsen, Niels: Kvinde og Slave. Danmarkshistorie uden retouche, vol. 3 (1085–1250), Copenhagen 1971, pp. 64-65.

Temp

1121 - solved

Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Lutici 1121 inline text Discussion has led to some progress here. The initial question about the introduction of a capture of Demmin and Stralsund in the inline text based on Michalek ([1] [2] [3]) has been solved: VM has verified that there is no respective inline text in Michalek [4] [5] VM has agreed that the "capture of Demmin/Stralsund"-wording is not supported by Michalek's map [6] [7], which was used as the reference for that claim [8] [9] [10] [11]. Thus, there is no need for an RfC to ask whether the capture-wording is ok or not, rather, there should be a (short) list of proposals for what wording we use instead. Boleslaw's 1121 Müritz campaign The wording we agree on here will be introduced to Pomerania during the High Middle Ages#List of Polish campaigns, a table listing year(s) in the first column, and details in the second column. Lutici#Division and conversion of the Lutician areas, where it will be transformed to "In 1121, [text of second column]." Proposal A 1121 Bolesław III Wrymouth advanced from the lower Oder region deep into Lutician territory, reaching and devastating the Müritz region.[1] According to Maleczynski (1939), Boleslaw thereby "most likely took Demmin and Gützkow" and, with reference to the 1121 campaign of Lothair of Supplinburg, "German and Polish expansion met at Müritz lake and the upper Peene river, and probably in the vicinity of today's Stralsund."[2] Enders (1986) says that during the same campaign, Boleslaw destroyed the Ukranian stronghold of Nadam, following a thesis that Nadam was located near today's Nieden.[3] Herrmann (1968) proposed that Boleslaw's campaign followed a fork of the Magdeburg-Malchow route which ran from Lake Müritz to Stettin/Szczecin, via Nieden.[4] That the Müritz campaign took place subsequent to a capture of Stettin in the winter of 1120/21 is proposed by Gaethke (2000) and others, while Piskorski (1999) and others say that the capture of Stettin took place in the winter of 1121/22.[5] Footnotes: [1] Primary source: Ebo III.4 (in MGH SS 12). In secondary literature: Brüske, Wolfgang: Untersuchungen zur Geschichte des Lutizenbundes... [Studies of the Lutician federation's history...] (Mitteldeutsche Forschungen, vol. 3), Münster/Cologne 1955, p. 94: "[In 1121], Boleslaw penetrated deep into Lutician territory. He advanced towards Müritz lake and devastated the area so thoroughly that it was nearly devoid of humans, as reported by Ebo." Similarily, with reference to Ebo: Schultze, Johannes: Die Mark Brandenburg, vol. 1, Berlin 1961, p. 59; Eggert, Oskar: Geschichte Pommerns, vol. 1, Hamburg 1974, p. 41; Herrmann, Joachim et al.: Die Slawen in Deutschland. Geschichte und Kultur der slawischen Stämme westlich von Oder und Neiße vom 6. bis 12. Jahrhundert, Berlin 1985, pp. 385, 552 (fn. 15); Gaethke, Hans-Otto: Kämpfe und Herrschaft Heinrichs von (Alt-) Lübeck und Lothars von Supplingenburg im Slawenland 1093/1106-1125, in: Zeitschrift des Vereins für Lübeckische Geschichte und Altertumskunde (ZVLGA), vol. 80 (2000), pp. 63-163, here pp. 126, 136. [2] Maleczynski, Karol: Bolesław III Krzywousty, Lwow 1939 (repr. Wroclaw 1975), p. 154: "Na zachodzie podbój polski objął znowuż zapewne miejscowości Kocków i Dymin" (preview) and "Ekspansja polska i niemiecka zetknęłyby się w taki sposób ze sobą na przestrzeni górnego biegu Piany od Jeziora Morzyckiego ewentualnie po okolice dzisiejszego Stralsundu." (preview) [3] Primary source: Herbord II.5 (in MGH SS 20, where Nadam/Naclam is identified as Nakel/Nakło). Richter, Friedrich: Das Dorf Nieden. Versuch einer Ortschronik, in: Heimatkalender des Kreises Prenzlau 8/1933, p. 128, proposed that the Nadam destroyed by Boleslaw in 1121 was near Nieden, an Uckermark village. Herrmann, Joachim: Siedlung, Wirtschaft und gesellschaftliche Verhältnisse der slawischen Stämme zwischen Oder/Neisse und Elbe (Schriften der Sektion für Vor- und Frühgeschichte / Deutsche Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin, vol. 23), Berlin 1968, p. 122. and Enders, Lieselott: Historisches Ortslexikon für Brandenburg, vol. 8/2 (Uckermark), Weimar 1986, p. 710 agree and relate Nieden to Boleslaw's 1121 Müritz campaign. Kirsch, Kerstin: Slawen und Deutsche in der Uckermark. Vergleichende Untersuchungen zur Siedlungsentwicklung vom 11. bis zum 14. Jahrhundert. (Forschungen zur Geschichte und Kultur des östlichen Europa, vol. 21), Stuttgart 2004, p. 75, with reference to Enders says that "it was proposed that Boleslaw on his way to the Müritz destroyed the Ukranian stronghold Nieden on the Ucker river in the north of the later Uckermark." [4] Herrmann, Joachim: Siedlung, Wirtschaft und gesellschaftliche Verhältnisse der slawischen Stämme zwischen Oder/Neisse und Elbe (Schriften der Sektion für Vor- und Frühgeschichte / Deutsche Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin, vol. 23), Berlin 1968, p. 122. [5] That the Müritz campaign took place after the capture of Stettin/Szczecin is proposed e.g. by Gaethke, Hans-Otto: Kämpfe und Herrschaft Heinrichs von (Alt-) Lübeck und Lothars von Supplingenburg im Slawenland 1093/1106-1125, in: Zeitschrift des Vereins für Lübeckische Geschichte und Altertumskunde (ZVLGA), vol. 80 (2000), pp. 63-163, here p. 136: ""Vermutlich im Anschluß an die Eroberung Stettins;" Eggert, Oskar: Geschichte Pommerns, vol. 1, Hamburg 1974, p. 41; Brüske, Wolfgang: Untersuchungen zur Geschichte des Lutizenbundes... [Studies of the Lutician federation's history...] (Mitteldeutsche Forschungen, vol. 3), Münster/Cologne 1955, p. 94; Wächter, Joachim: Zur Geschichte der Besiedlung des mittleren Peeneraums, in Porada, Haik Thomas (ed.): Beiträge zur Geschichte Vorpommerns. Die Demminer Kolloquien 1985-1994, Schwerin 1997, pp. 333-342, here p. 333; these authors accordingly say that Boleslaw captured Stettin/Szczecin prior to spring 1121 (ibid). In contrast, the capture of Stettin/Szczecin is dated to the winter of 1121/22 e.g. by Maleczynski, Karol: Bolesław III Krzywousty, Lwow 1939 (repr. Wroclaw 1975), p. 106; Piskorski, Jan Maria: Pommern im Wandel der Zeiten, Szczecin 1999, p. 36; Losinski, Wladyslaw: Stettin (Szczecin), in Wieczorek, Alfried & Hinz, Hans (eds.): Europas Mitte um 1000, Stuttgart 2000, pp. 156-162, here p. 160. Solved - implemented truncated version per agreement on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Volunteer_Marek&oldid=554834808#Medcom_RfC. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:08, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Proposal B (Proposal C if any) Discussion

1130

I think before we can decide on RfC-questions here, we should first settle the verification issue, since the requested quotations have not yet been provided. VM, can you please provide the respective quotation from Michalek? Skäpperöd (talk) 07:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC)