Template:Did you know nominations/Momoiro Clover Z

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 The following is an archived discussion of Momoiro Clover Z's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you knowDYK comment symbol (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: by Allen3 talk 09:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC).

DYK toolbox

Momoiro Clover Z[edit]

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Momoiro Clover in concert

  • ... that Momoiro Clover's (pictured) ascent to stardom began on a sidewalk in a park?

5x expanded by Moscowconnection (talk). Self nominated at 22:41, 29 March 2013 (UTC).

  • ALT 1 ... that although their vocals are rendered unstable when coupled with intense dance-moves, Japanese idol group that Momoiro Clover's (pictured) nonetheless sing live and never lip-synch?
I'll help with this DYK nomination as time permits, but it may take some time. Japanglish (talk) 05:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
ALT 2 ... that although their vocals are rendered unstable when coupled with intense dance-moves, Japanese idol group Momoiro Clover Z (pictured) nonetheless sing live and never lip-synch?
Sorry about that. Japanglish (talk) 05:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Article is 5x expanded. It appears that the expansion started with this edit, so that editor deserves credit for being part of the 5x (even though it's the editor's only edit). All paragraphs have a reference, save one, and there are a few other places where sources are needed.
    1. Should I add Santanagarcia27 to the "5x expanded by" sentence? Yes, I counted the edit in the 5x expansion. The edit made me start expanding cause I thought it would be much harder to expand the article fivefold later. 2. There was a reference in that paragraph and it was removed in this edit. The editor doesn't like the article mentioning the story of how the members were weighed during the signing of the contract. We had several discussions about that story and I agreed only to cut the paragraph a bit, but... I've just added the reference back, but didn't add the two sentences cause I don't want to start a war. --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Adding him/her to the sentence there doesn't matter. I added the user to get credit with {{DYKmake|Momoiro Clover Z|Santanagarcia27}}. I've also started a 5x expansion on an article in my queue before I wanted to because someone else came along and added something substantive, which would've made it harder for me to wait.
  • As for the edit by Anosola, I agree that adding the reference back is important. As to adding those sentences, and the reason Anosola doesn't want that included, I'm not sure, and I'll leave it to you two to work out. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • As for the hooks, I don't personally like the wording "ascent to stardom" in the main proposed hook. Also, that's one of the parts of the article that lacks a source. ALT1 and 2 are verified AGF on the Japanese, though it's best to rewrite with the band being the subject of the sentence: – Muboshgu (talk) 17:54, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • ALT3 ... that Japanese idol group Momoiro Clover Z (pictured) never lip-synch in live performances, although their vocals are rendered unstable when coupled with their dance-moves?
  • Still a few places need citations. Let me know when you've addressed those. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Changed the hook for exactly the reason stated above: "ascent to stardom" doesn't seem accurate/appropriate. ALT 3: nice, smoother version of my suggested hook, & probably about the most interesting thing that can be "hooked" about this group. & I must state: This article needs a lot of work. Sorry I bolded but it's true/important. The article is written like a fan page; isn't that why Facebook was created? Far too much weight to a rather lightweight subject, misguidingly makes this group seem unique in that they "emphasize closeness with fans" and "keep a positive outlook" etc... Its a common aspect of ALL of these idol groups, of which these girls are only a recent, dare i say, minor addition. Dime-a-dozen. You should easily be able to find English sources to verify. Next point: why does this article seem to be hiding behind all Japanese sources, when a short search at Japan Times online ought to provide plenty of material, & of a more neutral nature. Next, the barrage of lists/tables offered might be nice for Japanese Billboard but, though it makes for a good resource, I don't think Wikipedia is that resource. It's actually very "Japanese" to provide these kind of tables (and I'm Japanese, by the way, so please don't throw that back at me), but the information provided in those can be found elsewhere in music databases, or at least MomoClo's Japanese Wikipedia page can be linked here in a "for more information..." capacity. Start by writing out the "Members" section in prose instead of a "table". Those tables, by singling out bits of info into its own box, put too much emphasis on the fact that "so-'n-so's chosen color is purple." Also, the article as a whole is very poorly assembled; bara-bara. Theres biographical info buried which can be reassembled into a paragraph of its own. Theres info up front which is of no major importance there. I really wanted to help with this article, which is exactly the reason I signed up here at Wikipedia, because there's lots of dis/mis-information in Japanese Wikis especially these pop-culture articles. Unfortunately I wonder if I should just state my case as to what I found, then just back off. Revisions I make to this article may be welcome by Wikipedia but probably not by whomever's baby this is. By the way, the bit about them being "weighed-in" MUST be included here. If not, I'd be really disappointed in Wikipedia. If you'd really like some help, I'll be watching. Japanglish (talk) 03:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
    Thank you very much for your help and the review.
    1. This is just a DYK nomination, and the DYK rules are very simple. This doesn't have to be a good article to qualify. Still, your suggestions are very useful cause I want it to be a good article too.
    2. I can't subscribe to some statements like "probably about the most interesting thing ... about this group", "written like a fan page, isn't that why Facebook was created", "a rather lightweight subject", "[d]ime-a-dozen".
    3. When you say "a short search at Japan Times online ought to provide plenty of material", you should try it first and see what you find. And Japan Times don't seem to me to be "of a more neutral nature". It would actually say that it is biased towards Momoiro Clover and against AKB48. But it doesn't really matter, though, cause I couldn't find any reviews about Momoiro Clover on the site, there were just bits now and then.
    4. A discography is essential to any band-related page. This is an English Wikipedia, we can't link to Wikipedias in other languages the readers won't be able to read anyway. Everything must be here, in English.
      I do think all these tables make the article look reader-unfriendly, but the only thing that can be done is to split them into a separate discography page. I'm already consulting another contributor to the article about that. If the editor doesn't object, I will split it, leaving a more concise version in the main article.
    5. The member section would look incomprehensible in prose.
      The colors are essential information, it is strange that someone who knows the group would suggest to remove the info
      I am not sure I will be able to find a reliable source for the exact wordings of the taglines in the next few days, so I'm thinking about commenting them out for the time being.
    6. I don't think it would be a far-fetched statement to say that there were many editors who were disappointed in Wikipedia here. You shouldn't get frustrated, it's always like that. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
    7. Basically, any additions (if they are additions, not removals of content) will be welcomed. The DYK section is for new articles, and this is what it is - a new article. I expanded it very fast and didn't really have time to think about it much. It is more of a rough draft and, therefore, can't be called "my baby". If you want to add something, add, add anything you want, but don't delete the tables. :) --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
    8. I will probably just remove the part about "the deep appreciation to the fans". It does seem excessive for an encyclopedia article. You are welcome to remove it too if you think it sounds promotional. --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I will address other citation requests in 2 days. I'm currently working (offline) on some other articles related to Momoiro Clover, so in a few days I will have much more material. If I am not able to find a source for something, I will just remove it and add a paragraph about something else in return. --Moscow Connection (talk) 08:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Not against the group, not against the article (and not against you!). But they are what they are: the most current incarnation of whats already been overdone —even their Korean counterparts are no longer commanding much attention, AKB too (all mostly just making TV commercials nowadays)— therefore the coverage here should reflect that. One could switch article titles between groups and few people may notice (sorry, hammering my point there).
If Japan Times isn't writing much about them, then that's due to a more down to earth, realistic/neutral standpoint. I'd already done the search you suggest, if for any reason just to verify myself (12 articles, 2 just about them), and plenty of what appears in the wiki IS covered in English at JT... material much more encyclopedic than what color bloomers they wear, please. Like, the music maybe? AND a very reliable source. Someone may want to put a little more effort into that, in the interest of making a better, more informative, verifiable article. Some more specifics:
  • "Performances/Films" listed way down after all the tables... should be positioned above the tables (i.e. tables LAST), AND can be sourced by Japan Times. (by the way, I just through that in as one example; there's also Metropolis, Mainichi; search English-language-newspapers-in-Japan; check English Fuji Rock sites etc etc)
  • The "Members" table CAN be simply and effectively written out in prose; ALL of those tables can. Have a look at how it was handled in the KISS article, among others. Write, friend, Write! (seems like Momo's English wiki is pretty much a straight translate of the Japanese wiki, but Japanese wikipedia has a bad reputation and may as well be called facebookedia; and some of the Japanese sources are fan-blogs which wouldn't pass here)
  • Tables consisting of only ONE item each; what's up with that? in that case, flow it into the prose until there are a number of items worthy of a table!
  • Not "frustrated," friend, I'd just like to be impressed! There shouldn't be what i've often seen as a rush to get articles to DYK. Contributors are too eager to rack up their stat quotient; more often than not they just clog up the flow here because the articles aren't as ready as they should be. So as long as I see things worth commenting on, for better or worse, I will. Japanglish (talk) 10:50, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
    • «i've often seen as a rush to get articles to DYK» - What is your main account? Your comments are disruptive. Please stop. Everything you say has absolutely no connection to the DYK process. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive to you maybe? You need to relax, I haven't said anything out of hand, except that it may not be what youd like to hear. This is very unreliably sourced, promotionally toned otaku translation... Explanation for the "clover" name does not appear as its written here in either of the sources provided for that paragraph. The reason for the group's addition of the "Z" is in fact explained in the source but it's not as its been explained in this article. Shall I continue?... I'm going to back out of this simply because you can't handle the criticism and I didn't show up to argue. I've reviewed the material and that's what i found. The article has already made it into the queue but the work isn't done, keep tidying up. I'll stay out of it for now. Japanglish (talk) 14:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, you should continue. These are constructive suggestions. And any problems with the sources are relevant to the nomination. I don't think you should stay out. You are helping. I will read the sources carefully. There were sources for "pure girls" and "spread happiness". I was in a hurry and didn't check everything. --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:39, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm planning to come back tomorrow and address your issues. It would be nice if you helped with the article. As you understand, I only planned to nominate it for DYK and didn't think about making it a good article or anything. But with someone's help it is possible. The article is not long, it can be re-written, a separate section actually about music can be added, etc. As you understnad, my Japanese is terrible and it's hard for me to decypher all the numerous news articles about the group. It takes too much time for it to be worth the effort. To start with, if you find some general sentences about their image, their musical and visual style, it would be nice. --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:33, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
I have split the discography to a separate article, by the way. The current version of the discography section that is left is not final. I'm waiting for Anosola's opinion. Also, the member table looks terrible; something has to be done with it to make it look less untidy. I will think about it later. First, I will change the way the colors are indicated. "モーニング娘。#現在のメンバー" is better, but the colored squares didn't work in some Internet browsers last year. --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Example edits made. Please check out the new, more informative INTRO section, which ties/explains more directly to the proposed DYK hook. Check out the new MEMBERS section explained in a more encyclopedic way. If anyone has the interest, someone may want to go through ALL these types of "idol" artices and follow this format! I've made the edits easy to undo if anyone gets there panties in a bunch, but quite honestly dosnt't it look/read/feel better this way?? If I've set a new standard, then my work here is done... read & learn > write & teach Japanglish (talk) 12:10, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
P.S. I merely re-formatted what already existed within the previous "table" format, but none of that is sourced... i'll leave that to the nominants. Also I type fast so I'm sure there are typos. Japanglish (talk) 12:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't like your edits. I think the format you are suggesting is not acceptable.
Lead
  1. «sometimes centered on a specific number of members» - Misleading, irrelevant. Cause this is not the case with Momoclo. They are five now, but the group wasn't conceived as a five-member group. And the groups you mention later don't have a fixed number of members either.
  2. «as with comparable groups such as SKE48 and Nogizaka46, both of which employ former members of Momoiro Clover» - There is no connection whatsoever to Nogizaka46 and SKE48, other than the coinsidence that 2 girls later became members of these 2 groups. They should not be mentioned in the lead.
  3. «Members remain part of the group until "graduation" is announced, usually upon reaching a certain age» - Misleading, irrelevant. Cause this is not the case with Momoclo.
Member list
  1. I appreciate what you tried to do with the member list, I can see your very good intentions. But no one will be able understand it like this. It was visually comprehensive. Now, no one will be able to understand it.
  2. The pink spade symbols (used instead of bullets) look strange. The article is not about a game of cards.
I really hoped you would help with the article, though. Help by adding something from Japanese sources if you can. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I rest my case! Everything I added to the intro adds encyclopedic context, so someone who knows nothing about this group will have an overview of the group and the big picture of what they are part of, not just for fanboys who already know the group to pat eachother on the back about. It also provides context for the proposed hook. Mention of the interchangeability of the girls is already noted in the article, so its easily part of what can be considered an outline. The clover graphic is dispensable but it sure looked better than a box. Whats with you and your boxes? Can you read? Spend your own time sourcing your own article if you believe it to be so worthy, I no longer have any interest. As it stands, sources are either unreliable or absent altogether. Good luck. Japanglish (talk) 13:17, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I hope I don't regret this but, I think my opinion is valid so I'll toss it in. I'm waiting here in DYK too (Mona Lisa replicas and reinterpretations), and noticing this "japan-vs-moscow" cold-war starting, and I'm partial to the "encyclopedic" vision although I understand that "rush for DYK acknowledgement", and I know these girl-groups deserve their coverage in English Wikipedia... but I'll add here that some (Japanese) sources for this article as it exists aren't reliable. Not for the information reported here. Much of this Japanese content is from fan-related coverage. Personally I don't have the time or resources to contribute but, we're all in the same boat there eh? Japanglishes' edits, I think, provide a better, introductory, encyclopedic (and neutral!) view of the topic. And he (sorry, SHE?) provided and interesting hook, I think. I don't care about the clover graphic, but actually I gotta say: it IS better than the box/graph it replaced. Separately, I agree a lot of these Japanese "Idol" groups need some kinda "new" protocol as to who-is-who and whats-the-difference, instead of just posting box-lists of everything. "AGF" of foreign translations is problematic. "Japanglish" please put your talents to use, but "Moscow" please provide sources which can be verified? Momocuro's article does need alot of attention, even for simple english. Penwatchdog (talk) 18:28, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
This may throw grease into the fire but, I'm noticing most of that 2013 section deals with some kind of release-date slated for, well, right now. Referenced or not, that content seems to be, loaded maybe? Something not yet covered by outside sources except as an announcement of its release? I really don't wann be part of a three-way here; anyone else care to offer something? Currently, my vote would be about this. Penwatchdog (talk) 20:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
  1. Japanglish's good intentions don't make them less of a one-purpose account and a suspected sock puppet. See his contributons. He also tried to highjack the nomination, which already had a reviewer. He also insulted the group in his review several times.
  2. Your vote is too hasty and your reasonings are incorrect. Where is the fan-related coverage, for example? Tokyohive's articles are translations from Oricon and Natalie. It is a matter of minutes to replace them. They contain the links to the original Japanese articles.
  3. As I said, the nomination already has a reviewer who, together with Japanglish, found real problems with the sources, either listing them here or tagging in the article itself. I am working on it. Please don't vote yet. If you see a problem, you name it.

What Santagarcia27 added was a copyvio from "Momoiro Clover Z Play First Show at Seibu Dome to 37,000 Fans" by Yattar News. It simply means that the article was expanded more than 5 times. I think it will be correct to remove him from the credits. I will do it now. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Hiya Moscow. Briefly in response:
  • I have questions about the tone of that 2013 paragraph;that it seems promotional. 5 refs there merely overcompensate anyway, and I also thought a couple of those seemd like blogs. I'm still learning these kinds of rules but Id been informed that blogs aren't reliable sources.
  • There were a couple of other blog-like sources that I don't have time right now to go back and check again, but I will.
Sorry if attaching that X-vote might've been too strong for humble me but that's what i felt. Thing that made me question all the refs (therefore question AFG) is:
  • Yomiuri English page; first, some of info pulled from that was padded, about Yoyogi park for one, so i wondered if Japanese refs could be too.
  • (by the way, however questionable the motives or however misdirected, Japanglish was right about the Japanese refs he/she cited, which i noticed right away too) so naturally question marks started adding up.
  • Also that "Yomiuri" ref: can we get neutral consensus whether that's a valid source? Its a "web citation" site, doesn't seem to be a Yomiuri site.
  • You also oughta go through the article and generally neutralize other instances of excessive praise or claims.
I'll step aside in the interest of fairness because I probably shouldn't've stuck my nose in here in the first place! but I'll check here again as I'm still in line too & I'll look into Japanese specifics when I can. Penwatchdog (talk) 06:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
  1. The first paragraph in the 2013 section is not promotional. The goal they chose for themselves is very difficult, it should be mentioned in the article. At the time, they had just achieved their goal of performing at Kohaku Uta Gassen and needed a new one. (I hope no one would argue that a participation in Kohaku can be planned or predicted. It can't.) Everything else deals with Momoka's illness.
    I rewrote the second paragraph, it was simply outdated. It was written before the album came out. I think there's nothing wrong with announcements, there are plenty of articles in Wikipedia that are written entirely about something planned.
  2. There are no blogs among the sources currently. Tokyohive was a blog, but the articles were written basing on reliable Japanese publications and had links to the originals. I found the originals and replaced the references. I think the most unreliable source currently is Anime News Network, which is not needed and left in the "Overseas performances" section for the sake of having more English-language references.
  3. There's no need for consensus on the Yomiuri Shimbun reference. The link is to the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.
  4. I agree that the language is overly happy and may sound promotional. It would be nice if someone toned the article down a little bit, but I'm not the right person to do it. I look at the sources and they are happy. I can't switch to an angry mood.
  5. You didn't say anything wrong and you are helping. --Moscow Connection (talk) 08:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I have corrected the article and added references where requested. --Moscow Connection (talk) 08:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I have also asked the people at WikiProject Japan to come by. I hope we will have more feedback and more people who can evaluate the reliablity of the sources used. Any new alternatives for the DYK hook are also welcomed. --Moscow Connection (talk) 08:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Holy wall of text, Batman! I'm going to have to look at this later when I actually have time to wade through all of that... ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:22, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Just happened to be catching up with other participation here at DYK... NihonJoe: by all means: "wade through" it; I'll be interested to hear the results of your swim. Wall-of-text: Yessiree, it's an encyclopedia after all! There's repetition in there though, and unencyclopedic coverage which could be cut without worrying about meeting count-quotients maybe? Seems like Moscow and company have been working on it but I still see work to be done. There IS, by the way, a description of the "Z" in the Japanese sources... maybe Nihonjoe will offer translation? There ISN'T, by the way, any source support for the use of "pink" nor "clover" connotating what's described in the article ("happiness" etc)... I'm sorry, I'm sticking my nose in here again but my assistance at this point is gonna be limited! I made it a point to checkout Moscow's previous DYK entries, many dealing with these "idol groups"; I can see why maybe you got pounced on this time... maybe previous DYKs were "AFD'd" and nobody noticed but there are flaws back there too, so maybe the best advice I can give is: don't depend on AFG's, because obviously theres someone watching?? You also gave yourself away up top: you admitted your japanese skills are limited but you're submitting articles of mostly japanese sources... using a little more caution in the future oughta help bypass these jams! I'll keep checking while I can but my time is up soon! Penwatchdog (talk) 07:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

The last time this article was rated, was April 12. That's a week and a half ago. I'd like to know from someone who is working on this article how much time is still needed to get this article DYK proof. Obviously, we can't allow this process to run on forever.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 10:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the issues pointed out by Muboshgu and invited him to continue, but he didn't return. I also fixed most issues (constructive ones) pointed out by Japanglish, who seemed a one-purpose account created to participate in this discussion anyway. I am absolutely willing to continue, but there's nothing much I can reply to Penwatchdog. The article has been proof-read for any factual errors by a Japanese native several times already. --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Alright. I have just proofread this article myself, and while I don't speak any Japanese, the English sources seem to be in order. I do however have an issue with the tone, which seems slightly promotional. "They didn't expect it would be that hard to catch people's attention, but didn't give up." "The girls keep smiling and exert all their energies to move forward." Those kind of sentences need to be curbed. —♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 19:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
In my opinion, that's been as much of the problem as any questions of references, for as long as I'd been involved here. Agreeing with Amber: just the explicit facts, Moscow! It's been said a few times already: Tone-down the fan-pagey drool! "Asent to stardom" etc... I was also waiting to hear what the WPJapan had to say but they didn't provide any input here, and came-and-went faster than Japanglish! (By the way, there's a "Japanglish" editing on Japanese wikipedia... maybe the same?) My input here is really at an end; I've already assisted with many other noms while waiting on line for my own to pass, and now they have! I'll check in once more to see if my vote is necessary but otherwise I'm outta here. Penwatchdog (talk) 03:04, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
I think I have "curbed" and removed what sounded promotional. I also asked Boneyard90 to help and he copyedited the entire article. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
If there are no problems, I would like to tweak ALT3 a little bit:
  1. I think the word "never" might be too strong. I asked Boneyard90 and he said that "have never lip-synched" would be better. The article currently says "do not lipsynch", I can change either the article ot the hook.
  2. The words "dance moves" don't require a hyphen in between them.
  3. The word "intense" can be added back (as in the version that Japanglish originally proposed) cause their dance moves are actually intense and Hotexpress says "intense". --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Still too promotional. For instance "The band gives a special emphasis to closeness and accessibility to the fans. Its slogan is "Idols you can meet right now. The members are also close to the band managers who are open to any discussions and suggestions." "The group is noted for their high spirits, a positive attitude." "The response from the audience, who cheers and relentlessly waves glow sticks throughout the band's live performances" "and went by minibus on an exhausting tour across Japan". And the list goes on. Please do resolve these issues. —♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 09:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Giving you an-E-for-effort 'cause you've obviously put in some time... but keep it up a little more if higher-ups allow it!

  • I'd put a "lead too short" box on it but I don't wanna tie this up any more than necessary. But the lead does, in my opinion, need to provide more. When I joined this party Japanglish had added a pretty well-rounded Lead. You don't have to re-instate that altogether but you may wanna at least pull from it or use it as a guide. It was a pretty informative overview of that whole "idol" world, which first-time readers probably arent educated about.

Giving thumbs up to the Japanese refs BUT: There IS still an explanation for the "Z" which none of your team has addressed...

If you're not gonna look into translating it, then I recommend: Don't explain the Z at all, for now at least, because the way you've described it as "never announced" is incorrect (that is, whatever source you're referencing contradicts a Japanese source, where it's described as kinda "meant to invoke mystery of the unknown" or something like that - like A.Hitchcocks "maggufins": something inserted with an appearance of meaning, but meaning nothing; maybe your English source translated it wrong!)
  • Explanation of Pink Clover meaning "happy smiling whatever whatever" still needs a tweak; sourced or not, it just sounds awkward - SOMEthing... phrase it better? And: that same explanation appears 2x in the article word-for-word... choose which placement is more relevant and either get rid of the other or differentiate between each!
  • Previous members: unless they went on to bigger-n-better things (two?), I question the need to include those who did NOT go on to anything else. At-the-very-least: I don't think any of those previous member's birthdays are necessary at all. Maybe change that section from its current "bulleted" list to a brief paragraph of previous members who did go on to...?
  • Whatever happened to the bit about the girls weigh-in? If it's sourced, it oughta be in here. That'd give this article some balance! (There're also articles online which are more critical of these Japanese "idol groups" including these girls; how they're herded around, breaking down into tears from overwork etc. It might not be what you'd like to report, but it's factual record about the very industry these girls are part of, and these very girls, which isnt all smily faces-n-sunshine. I think that's what all reviewers here mean about "tone"... I'm not saying you need write a scandalous expose'... the article is only providing one-sided reporting)
  • Keep copyediting! Here-n-there are lots of little things you should comb through.
  • I may not be back to follow-up... someone else please confirm the handling of the above and the article will be ready. Japanese sources: Penwatchdog (talk) 10:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't understand why you're greenlighting this article, Penwatchdog, when the concerns I just listed haven't been fully addressed yet. The exhaustive tour quote has been altered, but overall this article still reflects a promotional tone.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 10:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you very much! I will address the issues you listed and report in a couple of days. I will need to think about it. What I can say right now is:
    1. I probably don't quite understand the article (about the letter "Z"), I didn't see the "meant to invoke mystery of the unknown" part. What I saw is that there was no real explanation, it just went "bla, bla, bla" and stated an editorial opinion that it was something about the sense of losing Akarin. What I personally think about the letter is that someone (pictured) watched too much Dragon Ball Z. It was like if a new series with new protagonists started.
    2. I will add the weigh-in back. I wanted to add it back, but I didn't want to annoy the editor who removed it. The story is already discussed in the "Ikuze! Kaitō Shōjo" article.
    3. I would also like to add a short paragraph about their friendly relations to the band managers (that I simply removed now, after Amberrock said it was too promotional) and about the numerous pranks managers play on them. One example being the weigh-in, another the shooting of Shirome. There were also many surprise announcements at live events, etc. Since I don't have good sources for any general sentences like that and since it may look promotional, I should probably wait until the DYK is over. But the aticle is not complete without it.
    4. I am not sure if any explanation about idol groups in general is relevant in the lead. It would be relevant to explain that Momoiro Clover was an idol group in the concept section, but I don't know how. I would actually prefer to add a paragraph there and to call them simply a "girl group" in the lead. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:29, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
    5. I do think the members who left before the debut (i.e. all the former members except Akarin) take too much space in the member section. But it would require some clever writing. I will think what I can do.
    6. I would also prefer to lose the member table (in this particular article, not in other idol articles), and to add back an abridged version of what Japanglish wrote. But I don't have sources for all of it currently. Anosola provided sources (on his talk page in the Japanese Wikipedia), but since I can't see the magazines for myself, I should probably wait until the DYK is over or ask Anosola to add it himself. Although the article is not complete without the information and there's nothing that may be contested cause the info is absolutely harmless in its nature. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:44, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
    7. They may have transcended their status as merely idols cause it is hard to imagine a change in band members now. That is another reason why any general explanations about idol groups may sound misleading in this article. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:02, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
YES, YES Amber of course! my green-checks were simply in reference to the parts i would vouch for; in this case specifically: Japanese sources. Otherwise just showing good faith to the article itself because it has undergone a major overhaul (though its taken weeks and still needs more!)... Moscow: don't add or subtract anything other than what I or Amber have deemed necessary... you'll just be prolonging an already-lengthy process and I can't help any further! I only happen to still be here because I added another nom to DYK which I was able to finally tend to. I'm still around but don't depend on me Moscow! Thank you Amber for helping me here!
Moscow: there was something in Japangle's Lead which very simply describes these idol groups which didn't have anything to do with the interchangeability; something about making TV/commercial appearances and being dance/sing choreographed groups... I'd go with that if I were you. And then go to every idol-group page on English Wiki and insert the same kinda addendum to the Leads... it'll be the best thing you could do for all those articles. Penwatchdog (talk) 12:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I have to reiterate Penwatchdog's call; focus on our concerns. Leave the rest for later. You're running out of time on this nomination.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 14:47, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I've addressed all or most of Penwatchdog's requests and asked someone to look at it and to turn the promotional tone down. I intentionally added a couple of sentences back cause I think they are important and I hope they can be changed to sound less promotional with smaller losses than I was able to. --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm feeling friendly but only because some apparently neutral editor is finally putting in some effort. Still theres a shipload of matters, if its worth it timewise and effortwise. my input will probably be misconstrued anyway but heres a partial list:

  • Moscow please comb through it all and place periods/commas INSIDE end quotes ("xx.")
  • Yoyogi park: "significant numbers... well populated"
  • Former members: messy! Add Akari into the paragrapg/prose and ditch the colors/unnec.details!

2008-09:

  • repetitive explanation of the name (which is still wishy-washy!) ditch one!
  • "finally"... "welcomed"... "minivan TOO" ...out!
  • "group was noted for their dynamic..." unnecessary.

2010:

  • fix "King Records" link
  • "according to official site..." all unnecessary?

2011:

  • "spectators in a state of tears..."
  • "top achievements to date..."
  • referencing "youtube" ??
  • sentence about "Blue..." UNencyclo
  • "largest to date..."

2012:

  • "foreign Asian country..." ?
  • "lyrics declaring war..." UNencyclo
  • "first and last 'CONCERT'..." ?? sloppy section
  • Aug.5th Seibu Dome sentence: ?? hmmmm
  • Japan Expo: simply "performed" will do.
  • 9th single: "their first" will do. (or add the Z to their proper name?)
  • New Years NHK: last sentence: ???

2013:

  • several "important" announcements. no.
  • descriptions of those goals: sloppy!
  • Nissan stadium: surpasses "capacity" but says nothing about whether that many people actually attended.
  • SOURCES please?... Movies. Overseas.

Tending to all the above and all expected back&forth will surely drag this out longer. How much longer can this go on? Japanglish (talk) 05:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

How much longer it can go on? I'd say he has one (and only one) more chance. If the tone still isn't suitable by then, we'll close the nomination. We did something similar a few days ago with Template:Did you know nominations/Los Angeles Crusade (1949). —♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 12:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Now I've removed all the parts you cited as promotional. I didn't even rewrite them, just removed. Even those that I thought were important. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:36, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Akari is important, she must not be listed along with other members who just passed through. By the way, she was on the first album, and she will be on the next album too. (The next album will be an indies compilation.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't know about the "lyrics declaring war", but it was an important song, it must stand out somehow. I didn't find any news articles about that, but there was a lot of fuss when the video came out. Someone noticed that the rocket traces in the beginning of the video resembled the numbers "4" and "8" and people speculated that the group was starting a war with AKB48. By the way, someone has just created an article about the "idol wars" in the Japanese Wikipedia: アイドル戦国時代. The term has been used very often for a couple of years now. And these small things make the article interesting. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I've removed everything what Amberrock listed. And the vast majority of what Japanglish listed, but things like "largest to date" are important cause the article needs some sort of a continuous story, needs to show the band's progress. And the sloppy sentences that Japanglish listed are harder to fix. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The last Japanglish's requests that I either haven't fullfiled or haven't yet commented upon are: «descriptions of those goals: sloppy!» and «Nissan stadium: surpasses "capacity" but says nothing about whether that many people actually attended.» 1. I will try to rewrite the paragraph later. 2. The concert will be held in August. The capacity is cited from the words of the top manager of the arena. He invited the group to perform there saying that Nissan Stadium was the biggest in the country and that it could accomodate 72,327 people, which was more than the Olympic Stadium. This is all I know. It is surely better to write it like I have just explained to avoid any misunderstanding, but would it be encyclopedic? --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Not a DYK issue, but regarding the directive to place periods and commas inside quotation markes: this is not always correct per the WP Manual of Style. See MOS:LQ. LadyofShalott 00:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Amberrock: Moscow: Lady: Very sorry but I have to withdraw from this due to a real-world emergency! Sorry to leave you all hanging with this! Parting comments: Amber I leave this in your hands! (seems like this can just continue forever and I still see issues) Moscow hang in there; if this one doesn't make it at least you'll be better prepared the next time? (let go of what YOU think is important or interesting and just report the facts!) Lady thanks for showing up and general input! (someone send that Lady a bottle of wine!) Japanglish, well, be nice! (you've made lots of good points; read-learn-write-teach, words to live by!)Penwatchdog (talk) 03:31, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Finally, there it is. I think this article is now appropriately encyclopedic enough. The negligble concerns that remain can be disregarded for DYK purposes. The sources check out, and it's definitely not promotional anymore.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 12:23, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Amberrock, it's impossible to tell which of the hooks are being approved. Can you please specify which are, and also strike those that are not just to be safe? Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:31, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Whoops, excuse me. I'm approving ALT 3.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 15:23, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
    If it is ALT3, above I have suggested to change "never" to "do not" and to change "dance-moves" to either "dance moves" or "intense dance moves". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:28, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
  • That I do approve too, so the final ALT3 now reads:
  • final ALT3 ... that Japanese idol group Momoiro Clover Z (pictured) do not lip-synch in live performances, although their vocals are rendered unstable when coupled with their dance moves?
—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 15:53, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to bother everyone again, but I have another small improvement suggestion (for the hook). I think the second "their" is unnecessary, simply "when coupled with dance moves" would be better. And "even though" would sound better in this sentence than "although". This version sounds better to me:
  • ALT3a ... that Japanese idol group Momoiro Clover Z (pictured) do not lip-synch in live performances even though their vocals are rendered unstable when coupled with dance moves?
--Moscow Connection (talk) 20:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
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