Template:Did you know nominations/Minna Lammert

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:53, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Minna Lammert[edit]

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1876 stage machinery for Das Rheingold

... that Minna Lammert was one of the first Rhinemaidens in Bayreuth, whom Wagner thanked "with tears in his eyes" after the first rehearsal with the "swimming" machinery (pictured)? Source: [1]

Reviewed: Benjamin Steinberg (conductor)
Comment: I suggest to use it on 25 July, the opening of the 2018 festival. They don't play the work this year, or we could go for that day.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 12:19, 16 July 2018 (UTC).

The article is long enough and was nominated on the day it was created. The book and German sources are accepted in good faith. I wasn't able to detect any close paraphrasing. A QPQ has been provided. There are some minor issues with the hook and the article though: in the article, I'd recommend mentioning and linking to Richard Wagner during the first mention. Also, the hook could probably be rephrased somewhat since it seems to lack focus: is the focus of the hook Lammert, or the "'swimming' apparatus"? If it's Lammert, the hook could probably be written to emphasize this. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 13:54, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

The most interesting thing about her is that she sang that role in that performance, but I find it adds interest that Wagner thanked the three (kissing and hugging, but I didn't go that far), and for what? not for singing but being brave enough to be elevated by an apparatus he wanted and everybody else thought was impossible. There are photos of the 3 "swimming" in the external links: it was a sensation. The diary is in English. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:31, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

As for a link to Wagner in the article: when a piece has an article, the composer doesn't need one, to avoid a sea of blue. The hook won't be interesting to people not knowing who Wagner is ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Precisely, which is why a link to Wagner is needed even more. Not everyone is familiar with Wagner and classical music. Hooks are intended to be interesting for a broad audience, not just music buffs, so the idea is to broaden hook interest, not to limit it. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 14:52, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't get it. Wagner is linked in the hook, and I will not link him in the article, per a convention by projects Classical music and Opera. Composers get a link when the work has no article, but for a composition with an article, you can be sure to find the composer there, if you don't know who Mozart is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:06, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@Khajidha: Thoughts on the hook wording? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 20:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: Also, as for the hook being about Wagner kissing and hugging, if that's the point the hook is trying to make, then the hook should probably be rewritten to focus on that. Right now the wording is awkward and her being a "Rhine Maiden" doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the hook. What about something like: "... that Wagner thanked Minna Lammert "with tears in his eyes" after the first rehearsal with the "swimming" apparatus (pictured) of Das Rheingold?" Okay, maybe that may need to be rephrased too, but the point is there. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 21:52, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

You will have to introduce Rheingold first, or swimming makes no sense. It makes sense for Rhine maidens. - I agree that Das Rheingold is the best article to link to, because it's under major expansion. I intentionally didn't mention kissing and hugging, but am close to giving up relying on my English. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Drop swimming, let readers find out in the article why tears?

1876 Rhinemaidens

ALT2: ... that when Minna Lammert, Lilli Lehmann and her sister Marie rehearsed as the Rhinemaidens for the first performance of Das Rheingold in Bayreuth (scene pictured), Wagner thanked them "with tears in his eyes"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:12, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

ALT2 sounds better and is on the right track, but it's 217 characters when including "(stage design pictured)"; WP:DYKSG however is vague on whether or not that counts as part of the hook, so I'll let it pass. I'm ready to approve this, I'm just waiting for feedback from Khajidha. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew

When I learned DYK the pictured-clause was not counted, but I didn't follow every rule change. We could say Lilly and Marie Lehmann, but tricky to link, - one the greatest singer of all times, the other not even an article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

I just realised that the article is Rhinemaidens, and a FA, so better link to that one, also or instead. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:52, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Learning further: we do have an image of the "apparatus" called "machinery", - I adapted. image and hooks. As the creatures appear in both Das Rheingold and Götterdämmerung, it's also fairer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:05, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

I think the two of you have pretty well covered any issues I had with the original. ALT2 is fine.--Khajidha (talk) 13:40, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, giving this the tick. Special date request for July 25 is approved. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 14:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Promoting for the requested date but commenting on the inaccurate hook and the poor review which approved a hook with an incorrect quotation. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:53, 20 July 2018 (UTC)