Template:Did you know nominations/John Blackadder (preacher)

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:39, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

John Blackadder (preacher)[edit]

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  • Reviewed: Elan SCX
  • Comment: I was a bit lazy on paraphrasing in a couple of places. The most recent source is 1887, so there are no copyright issues.

Created/expanded by Aymatth2 (talk). Self nom at 13:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

  • Article was made on February 12th and nominated one day later, so we're good there. The length of the article is very clearly above the requirement. The article also appears neutral, is cited properly, and while I do see some of the close paraphrasing issues as noted by the nominator above, the out of date copyright should make that mostly irrelevant. If there is any amount of direct copying though, you might want to put a note in the references that that was done. Hook length is within required limits and is fairly interesting. This looks good to go. SilverserenC 21:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
  • In addition to the near-verbatim paraphrasing, there is direct copying and no notice that this was done. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
<s>[[File:Symbol delete vote.svg|16px]]</s> Issue identified 6 days ago with no response.--Ishtar456 (talk) 02:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Not so fast, please. The creator/nominator's user page indicates that s/he has been on holiday. Aymatth2 may not yet know that this hook was pulled out of the prep area or queue, after having been approved. --Orlady (talk) 03:38, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
ok.--Ishtar456 (talk) 04:13, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I left a note on Aymatth2's usertalkpage. Hopefully this gets fixed soon. --PFHLai (talk) 21:25, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I just saw this. Google Books is no longer letting me see some of the cited pages. Where is the problem? Aymatth2 (talk) 04:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I believe the concern is that if you have used verbatim or near-verbatim content from public-domain sources, there needs to be a note to this effect, identifying the sources. See Category:Attribution templates for some templates to be used (or language to be borrowed for use) to do this. --Orlady (talk) 02:55, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Understood, but I can't find a place where I did that. It may be from one of the pages that Google is no longer letting me see. I suppose I could wrap Template:Source-attribution around all the sources, just in case, but that does not seem right. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
  • After seeing your response, I accessed the sources and compared them with the article. (I was able to see everything except for page 50 of Stuart.) I edited one very minor instance of wording that I thought was close to the source, but I can't see the issues that Nikkimaria says she found. Just one question: Is there a reason that you accepted the 1622 birth date without noting that some sources give the birth date as 1615? --Orlady (talk) 16:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
  • A couple of examples, to help you see the problem: "expelled from his parish in 1662 after the restoration of Charles II because he refused to comply with the Episcopacy, which the government had introduced" vs "expelled at the restoration of Charles II for refusing to comply with the Episcopacy, which the government had imprudently introduced"; "a notorious sinner was converted. Blackadder said that instances of the power and irresistible grace of God such as this rejoiced his heart, and did him more good than twenty years’ stipend" vs "a notorious sinner, was converted; and Blackader was wont to say that such instances of the power and irresistible grace of God rejoiced his heart, and did him more good than twenty years’ stipend". Nikkimaria (talk) 16:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Regarding the choice of the wording in the "expelled from his parish" passage, note that the article creator needed to wrestle with a variety of archaic verbiage to come up with terminology that would be both comprehensible and accurate. Some of the other sources describe this same event thusly:
  • "Upon the 'intrusion' of episcopacy on presbyterian Scotland in 1662, the minister of Troqueer was 'extruded' from his church and temporarily imprisoned at Edinburgh"
  • "In 1662, when episcopacy was attempted to be forced on Scotland, Mr. Blackadder, in his sermons on several Sundays, energetically exposed its unlawfulness, and, to use his own phrase, 'entered his dissent in heaven' against it. In consequence of this, and the refusal of the presbytery to celebrate, by order of Parliament, the anniversary of the Restoration, he and some of his brethren were conducted to Edinburgh, by a troop of fifty horse sent for the purpose."
  • "...he was ejected from his charge by the by the infamous act of Glasgow, 1662. This act was preceded by several encroachments, which were fitted to excite suspicion and alarm on the part of the ministers. On this occasion, Blackadder stood manfully at his post ... [etc.] ... When news of the proceedings of the Presbytery of Dumfries had reached Edinburgh, the commissioner immediately despatched a military force to that town, with orders to place the whole sacred court under arrest. Accordingly, a troop of fifty horse... [etc., etc.] ... By the severe orders of the court he was soon obliged to leave his charge, which he accordingly did..." [That one takes a full page of text to describe what happened.]
  • "...he was ordained minister of Troqueer..., during the Commonwealth, and was ejected from that parish in 1662."

I commend the article creator for finding words that concisely and understandably explain what happened, and I deem the similarity with one of the several public-domain versions to be largely coincidental. --Orlady (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The "notorious sinner" and "twenty years' stipend" passage appears to be a case where the source cited (Fleming 1886) was paraphrasing something that Blackadder had said. It can't be presented as a direct quotation, because we don't have Blackadder's actual words, so it would be appropriate to indicate that the article uses public-domain content from Fleming. --Orlady (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

  • I have added a footnote on the uncertainty about Blackadder's birthdate and highlighted the content that was reproduced from David Hay Fleming's book. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I think that the various recent changes should resolve the concerns about this article. --Orlady (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
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