Template:Did you know nominations/Grand Casemates Gates

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Grand Casemates Gates[edit]

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Re-enactment of the Ceremony of the Keys at Grand Casemates Square

  • ... that between April and October, drums and fifes are played daily at the Grand Casemates Gates (pictured) in Gibraltar to warn aliens to leave before the gates are shut?
  • ALT4 ... that the keys of Grand Casemates Gates (pictured) are a symbol of office of the Governor of Gibraltar?

Created/expanded by Aymatth2 (talk). Nominated by Prioryman (talk) at 23:16, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/GibraltarPediA Options, Gibraltar-related articles are temporarily being reviewed by two individuals. In addition to the regular DYK criteria, at least one reviewer should also indicate whether they perceive any conflict of interest or promotional concerns about the article under review.IP addresses and Victuallers are not allowed to do the reviews.
  • Review 1:
  • Date good, length a bit touch-and-go with the long Poole quote, but I'll let that go. Lots of good images here, but a couple sourcing questions.
  • The quote from Robert Poole is reffed to both his book and a blog that repeats the quote, can we cut the blog out of the equation? Citing the book would be sufficient.
  • The "Gauchos" source. This is off a menu! It sounds like a very informative menu, but I don't think it meets the reliable source requirement. I don't feel comfortable passing this with that source providing so much of the content.
  • Good historical coverage, but no real description of the gates. Dimensions, appearance, materials would all be beneficial. This would help the length as well. The Interior (Talk) 21:32, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
  • COI note No promotional language noted by this reviewer. The Interior (Talk) 23:11, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
  • All good points. This is sort of a casual redlink-filler article, not one I expected to be nominated... To the points:
  1. José Chipolina shows up quite often on Gibraltar-related searches, is serious, cites sources, and is always consistent with more formally published sources, so I trust him. With the Poole quote, I can find part of the quote online in a book here, exactly as Chipolina gives it, but not all of it. I have flipped the cite sequence, so the cite is to the book, with a pointer to Chipolina for an online version of the quote.
  2. Size, even when the Poole paragraph and the Gauchos material are cut out, is 2049 per DYK check, so both could be cut out and it would still pass the length requirement.
  3. I am not sure I particularly want to defend a menu as a source. This is the first time I ever used one, honest, but it gives a simple summary consistent with everything else I have read about the topic. As noted above, it could just be cut out, or the same information could be pieced together from other sources - there is nothing controversial.
  4. Lack of a physical description of the gates is a real gap. I could not dig up anything. Maybe someone who lives in the town can find some printed source. Until then, the article has to stand without it.
Not sure if the above addresses all the concerns. I may tinker with reducing the amount of Gauchos content - and it could just be dropped, I suppose. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:56, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
It is with mixed feelings that I report that the menu source and associated content had been dropped, replaced with content from more conventional sources. Aymatth2 (talk) 04:44, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the changes, they mostly address my concerns. Not sure what happened with the char count, I must've dropped a para when copypasting into the counter. Sorry about the menu, but it did stick out as problematic. I could just see the furor on WT:DYK: "DYK has no standards, rabble rabble, uses menus as sources, rabble rabble." As for the description, it would be nice, but not a DYK req. This reviewer is sated, I'll let Reviewer No. 2 add the tick mark if they are too. The Interior (Talk) 19:23, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Review 2:
  • Article is new enough and long enough, the image is licensed appropriately and the article meets all DYK criteria in my view. I have changed the proposed hook because the nominator had misinterpreted the paragraph in the article to refer to a daily event. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:20, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm not convinced by the sourcing of the hook that this is current practice. The website, if one goes out far enough, is copyright 2002 by a person, not by an official source for the regiment, so it's presumably at least a decade out of date in addition to being of questionable reliability. A newspaper story, if one exists, would be more reliable. The article claims April and October ceremonies since 1933, yet this is from a 1951 page that clearly shows a January ceremony in that year. I imagine that some version of the hook could be constructed that reflects the facts as they can be nailed down; please be sure that the hook facts are all cited by the end of the sentence they contain per DYK rules. (In this case, the "April and October" part had not been so cited, and should have been.) BlueMoonset (talk) 19:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
  • That is a valid point - the source is a bit dated. I added some more, and a bit more content. The last source (GBC News - 6 September 2012) shows the ceremony is still current. But the other sources show the main ceremony is sometimes in April, sometimes May, and sometimes in September, sometimes October. Plus there is a lesser ceremony every Saturday, presumably to keep the tourists happy. See ALT2 above - seems simpler. Aymatth2 (talk) 21:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I am happy with the new information on the ceremony in the article and the ALT2 hook. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:58, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I have removed this nomination from the queue, the explanation is at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Again pulled a hook from the queue for very poor sourcing.. A trout to everyone involved seems well deserved here, so

Whack!
You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something silly.

I have replaced the offending source by a selection of other sources. There is no doubt that the drums are banged, pipes tooted and keys jangled whenever there is an excuse, or failing that every Saturday at noon. But I sadly agree that a source that relies on Wikipedia cannot be considered reliable. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

An aside Another useful phrase that covers that situation is "Hock my chinik."Sinclair, Rabbi Julian (March 6, 2009). "Don't hock my chinik". The Jewish Chronicle Online. Retrieved December 30, 2012. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

  • Article is new enough and long enough, completely sourced, no bare naked URLs. Pic has commercial licence. Nice hook, comes in at 156 chars with "(pictured)" removed. Verified hook against sources. Good to go.

The ceremony "has been held since 1933", but "is mentioned in James Joyce's novel Ulysses" (from 1922), and the first source for the hook is from 1908. Something doesn't add up here. It is also unclear which of the five sources given after "Traditionally, and in the revived ceremony, drums and fifes are played to warn aliens to leave before the gates are shut." actually supports this sentence, the first three don't seem to contain this information. E.g. the "Life" source discusses "drumming in the keys"; "The Navy from Within" mentions that the drum-and-fife plays after the closing of the gates, so not a warning before the gates are shut; in the 1908 source, I can't find anything relating to this at all. The fifth source, [1], is not a reliable source, and again does not contain the info that this ceremony is to warn aliens to leave before the gates are shut. I haven't been able to get that information from the snippets provided from the fourth source either, perhaps a direct quote, with page number, can be of help? Oh, and the section below, from "in 2005" until "before the parade", should either go or be almost completely rewritten. The crux of the ceremony is that the Governor hands the keys over, so descriving that in 2005, the Governor attended the ceremony is a bit ridiculous, as he attends the ceremony every single time. There is no indication why any of the events described in this section is especially noteworthy, it comes across as "these are the ones we found a source for, so we included them to make it a bit longer", not "these were extra special occasions which merit extra attention". Fram (talk) 09:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

  • According to the sources, the ceremony was discontinued shortly after the Great War, and then reinstated in 1933. I see no contradiction. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
  • The fifth source says After peace was restored in 1783 the Port Sergeant would use fife and drum to warn aliens to leave the Rock before the gates were closed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
    • I have struck the part of my above comment that was incorrect, thanks. But still, that's not a reliable source (doesn't mean it's incorrect, just that it is not acceptable as the hook for a DYK). Do any of the other four sources contain this info? At least "The Navy from Within", which is a reliable source, flatly contradicts this. As for the history of the ceremony, the article reads as if the ceremony was created in 1933, and then provides information which is incompatible with this. That this contradiction is resolved in the sources is not good enough obviously, such contradictions need to be avoided in the article. Fram (talk) 11:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I should make it clear that I tossed off the original short description of these gates to fill a redlink. I only found that the article was in DYK when the first reviewer raised some questions. I see value in starter-type articles, written quickly, that outline basic non-controversial information. Quantity can sometimes be more important than quality. But I would have taken more care over sourcing if I had thought this would be given as an example of new work on the front page...
I have added some more content, more sources, made it clearer which source says what. The ceremony has obviously evolved over time, but equally obviously a short version is still enacted every Saturday at noon, and a more elaborate version twice a year. And yes, they play drums and fifes to warn non-residents to leave - although I doubt that they are really serious about wanting to kick out the tourists. After Bluemoonset questioned whether the ceremony was still current, a collection of items from 2005 to September 2012 were added to demonstrate that they are still being staged. A Flickr search amply confirms this, but I suppose we can't use it as a source. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Can you proved a quote from the "Admiral Jerauld Wright--warrior among diplomats" book to support the hook? It is not easily accessible otherwise to verify this, and the only other source that discusses this aspect, "The Navy from Within", contradicts this. I have been able to read the book from "something to happen, when I heard in the distance" until "I wanted to see the Governor and watch the" on page 45, but not before or beyond that. Fram (talk) 15:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I stuck in a Jerauld Wright quote and some other stuff but am starting to have my doubts about whether the hook is a good one. There are sources that say aliens, or at least Spanish laborers, once had to leave before the gates were closed. We have sources that mention the drums and fifes right up to the September 2012 show. But we have nothing that says in the modern ceremony the drums and fifes are used to warn the aliens to leave. In fact it seems that they are played to encourage the aliens, or tourists, to stay. I propose ALT3, which is supported by several of the sources in the last two paragraphs. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Article is new enough and long enough, completely sourced, no bare naked URLs. Pic has commercial licence. ALT3 hook verified,short enough. Verified hook against source. Good to go with ALT3. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Of course you did. The hook is "that the Grand Casemates Gates (pictured) in Gibraltar are symbolically locked every Saturday?", and the source given for this statement, [2] (is it a reliable source?) says "Today the gates are gone but the keys remain for ceremonial purposes." If the gates are gone, how are they (even "symbolically") locked every Saturday? Note that the source given only states that the four land entrances were shut historically, but doesn't discuss any locking in the current ceremony. Fram (talk) 09:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify on that point, I can see the gates from my window at work and they're definitely there but they're never closed... --Gibmetal 77talk 2 me 12:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Fram (talk) 12:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
  • We have a situation where the hook fact has a source that says the gates are "gone", yet we have a person from Gibraltar who can actually see them and says they are there, but never closed. Under the circumstances, I think we have to discount the source on the "gone" fact ... and also on any other it may provide, having gotten such a basic fact wrong. Either a new source must be provided to support ALT3—I'd say this area of pilotguides.com is tainted—or an ALT4 must be provided. Until one of these is done, this nomination cannot progress; given what has already happened, we want to be very sure before this gets another run at the main page. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
  • ALT4 may work. It is backed up by Archer's book, which seems serious, and is consistent with the other sources about the ceremony. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
  • hook ALT4 is in article cited, short enough, and confirmed in the reference. Good to go. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Needs second reciew per Gibraltar DYK rules. Fram (talk) 09:51, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Someone removed my above comment, against all talk page guidelines, and incorrectly to boot. The "second" review needs to address the changes, new hook, etcetera. A review from November 2012 can no longer be used to promote this article, since the review had nothing to do with the hook that is currently being discussed. Fram (talk) 13:11, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Normally, I don't believe a new "second" review would be needed just for a new hook if the nomination already has two full reviews, though the original proposal wasn't at all clear on what to do if a problem was found on the second review. But this article has had a great many issues, and I don't see any indication that Graeme's review included a thorough look at the "Ceremony of the Keys" section, which had indeed been greatly revised since the first two reviews were completed. (The rest of the article is unchanged in that interval.) It would certainly make me less reluctant to promote the article for a second time if it had an additional review that focused both on that one section and the ALT4 hook based on it. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Final review desired of, at a minimum, the revised "Ceremony of the Keys" section of the article and the ALT4 hook. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't really want to get involved further in this review, having already been whacked by a wet trout, but although Gibmetal 77 assures us that the gates are there, I don't care to approve ALT4 as it is because looking at the image in detail, I cannot see any gates. (The same objection applies to all the other proposed hooks.) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Grand Casemates Gates, 7 August 2009, viewed from outside the old town
  • See the picture to the right, which appears in the article's infobox. It shows four gateways, two for pedestrians and two for vehicles, under a sign saying
    GRAND CASEMATES GATES
    ON SITE OF
    WATER GATE.
If this picture is examined closely, it will be seen that the two central gateways have wooden gates, apparently four in all although only two are visible, which are open and swung back flush with the wall. If the picture of the pedestrian gate with the play soldiers is examined, there also seem to be wooden gates, open and flush with the wall, one of which is visible behind the drum. That would be a total of eight wooden gates, or four pairs of gates. There is no reason to doubt User:Gibmetal77, who says "they're definitely there but they're never closed".
The picture backs up the sources in showing there is a structure in Gibraltar called "Grand Casemates Gates". The sources attest that there are some large "keys of the gates" that get handed around in the tourist ceremony and that are a symbol of office. Whether those keys actually fit the gates, and whether the gates could be swung closed and locked, is a different question. I have no idea what impact a genuine locking of the gates would have on tourist revenue, if any, since there are now alternative routes into and out of the town. But none of the hooks, least of all the last one, assert that any locking of the gates has actually happened in recent times.
Anyway, the term "Grand Casemates Gates" seems to be a synecdoche of the pars pro toto variety, and the keys are now associated with the larger structure rather than with any individual wooden gates. I hope the above clears up the concern. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:23, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Presumably the gates will next be closed at the start of the Fifteenth Siege of Gibraltar. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • But check this image. The center gates are clearly present, but there do not seem to be any gates for the pedestrian tunnel to the left of the picture. No point locking the main gates when anyone can slip in the side way. When the 15th siege starts, the troops will find someone had blundered. Theirs not to reason why, of course. Aymatth2 (talk) 21:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Gibmetal77 may be able to confirm this, but from memory I think there is some kind of iron gate in the tunnel. I recall seeing a chain mechanism. So perhaps it's not hopeless after all? Prioryman (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • That doesn't give me a really warm feeling. A chain isn't going to do much. Let's just hope the governor is watching this discussion and gets someone to do something about it. Aymatth2 (talk) 21:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • He's not just watching this discussion, he's commented in it, if you believe some of the anti-Gibraltar paranoia going around :-) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I was able to resolve this question in about 15 seconds by doing a Google Images search. This image from Panoramio shows the wooden gates quite clearly. Prioryman (talk) 17:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • OK, you may have misunderstood the point I was trying to make. "Gates" may not be visible in the image but "Grand Casemates Gates" is. The article is (was!) new enough and long enough. The ALT4 hook is cited to a reputable source. Ready to go as far as I am concerned. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:29, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


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