Template:Did you know nominations/Britten's Purcell Realizations

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

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Britten's Purcell Realizations

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 19:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC).

  • This article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright or plagiarism issues. A QPQ is needed and the hook needs to be rewritten because it is currently ungrammatical. It might be better not to pipe the link. Ping me when you are ready for me to complete the review. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:46, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Pleae let me know more precisely what the problem is. I tried to avoid to say "in Britten's Purcell Realizations", Benjamin Britten realized works by Henry Purcell", to avoid repetition, and because the two are the best-known English compoers, and whoever will not recognize the names, will probably not care about any of the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:04, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
The hook has no main verb. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
The verb is "realized". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
No, "realized songs" is (or acts as) a noun for the possessive "Britten's". The hook does need a rewrite; at a bare minimum (though I recommend a more extensive recasting) "were written" should be added after "for voice and piano". BlueMoonset (talk) 21:28, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Sorry about the mistaken possessive.
ALT1: ... that Benjamin Britten realized several songs by Henry Purcell for piano beginning in 1945 when Purcell's 250th anniversary of death was remembered?
"was written for voice and piano" is wrong, becaue the vocal part was written by Purcell, and Britten only "realized" the figured bass (which in Purcell' time would have been played by a continuo group) for piano. I may need help with the wording. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. ALT1 looks good, though I think "commemorated" is better than "remembered", but we still need a QPQ. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:40, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I've copyedited the article. Although this are called "realizations", they seem to be as much arrangements as realizations: as the article makes clear, Britten goes well beyond the figured bass. I also think that most people are going to be confused by "realized" in the context of the hook, being unaware of the specific musical meaning. Suggesting the following recasting of the hook (note that I specified voice and piano because song arrangements are made for piano minus the words but including the vocal melodic line):
(ec) Thank you for the better word:
ALT3: ... that Benjamin Britten realized several songs by Henry Purcell for piano beginning in 1945 when Purcell's 250th anniversary of death was commemorated?
BlueMoonset, thanks for the article work. Knowing ERRORS, some were written later, so not "to commemorate". Also I do think we need to explain the title if we don't use its wording.
ALT4: ... that in his Purcell Realizations, Benjamin Britten arranged the accompaniment of songs by Henry Purcell for piano, beginning in 1945 when his 250th anniversary of death was commemorated? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I am reviewing Ernst Dammann. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
Changing the second ALT3 to be ALT4, to avoid potential confusion. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:13, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT2 is the best and most understandable of the new hooks, but to accommodate Gerda's point, we could have ALT2a -
Do you really think we should not mention the word "Realization" if it's in the title? Or alternatively mention the title? "arrange" just doesn't mean the same, at least for me. Having said that, I can live with ALT2a - always nice to have a long bold string - but am afraid it's misleading. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Well, I think its OK, because the word "realizations" in this context is unfamiliar, and few people will know what it means. However, if you want to suggest a different hook, please go ahead. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:17, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Just butting in here - I also think that ALT2a works well. I would not know what "realising" means in this context, but arranging, yes. Then, if I am interested in Britten and Purcell, I will click on the article and learn about realising (and about figured bass, to which I have just added a link, as I am a musical ignoramus). RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:36, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
PS I meant to say, the information about the figured bass in Purcell's time, that it would have been played by a continuo group, is interesting, and it's not in this article or Henry Purcell. I think it would add to the understanding of what both composers did to include it in this article. It is in the Figured bass article, but it would be more accessible if included in this, I think. As I said, I am a musical ignoramus, so many things that are obvious to those who are knowledgeable about music of this period are new to me! RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:42, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, I hesitate because it's basically true for all pieces of Baroque music, Handel operas, Bach cantatas, you name it, - should we really insert it in all? We don't even for FAs, so far. It seems a bit like saying every time when symphony orchestra is mentioned that it contains a string section. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:00, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
It makes sense not to, then. And with a link to Figured bass (I hope that's OK), there is information available anyway. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Adding another ALT hook and a request for a new reviewer. This hook is a slight tweak of ALT4:
ALT4a: ... that in his Purcell Realizations, Benjamin Britten arranged songs by Henry Purcell for voice and piano, as a commemoration of the 250th anniversary of Purcell's death?
What do you think, Gerda Arendt? RebeccaGreen (talk) 18:18, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer. Being picke - sorry:
  • I don't understand Purcell Realizations as I title, so just Purcell Realizations.
  • "songs by Henry Purcell for voice and piano" sounds like Purcell wrote them for voice and piano (while the key point is that the piano wasn't even invented when he wrote them.
  • I miss a year, afraid that without being told when the 250th ... was, our general readers will have no idea.
  • I also envision ERRORS to point out that only some Britten's realizations were "to commemorate", while others were written later.
Do you want to try harder? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, since you used Purcell Realizations (bold italic) in your own ALT4, it is odd to see you objecting to its use for ALT4a, a modified version of your own proposal. It looks fine to me; the Hyperion CD set uses Purcell Realizations as a title. I read the "arranged" section as "arranged ... for voice and piano" much like your original hook's realized songs by Henry Purcell for voice and piano, but if it is, on further reflection, overly ambiguous, perhaps "arranged figured bass songs" will solve that, and "in part to commemorate the 250th anniversary" to address the final issue. Updating ALT4a; resulting hook is 189 characters:
BlueMoonset, you note well how torn I am whether it's a title, which made he seek refuge in a pipe link. It's not a title that Britten gave this collection, only one of several ways of a description. I like your ALT4 best so far, and could live with it, including the italics, but while songs is general, figured bass songs is limited (+ I never heard the term, but that could be just me), and it would for my understanding not imply the many melodies (arias and a few duets) from the stage works. Any way to suggest better than "in part" that the anniversary gave the idea? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:18, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
ps: reading ALT1 again, I believe that solved some problems. Why not let people find out what "realize" means? - It's DYK, after all. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:20, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
The article title is in italics, so I have followed that in the hook. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:29, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I think they are both fine. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:18, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, - perhaps it's my lack of English, but for me, a piano arrangement is something for piano alone. Am I wrong? - Also, IF Britten's Purcell Realizations is a title, can we really cut it in two, and treat one part as if the truncated thing still was a title, meaning the same? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I have struck the word "piano" from the hooks. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:06, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Forgive me but that doesn't make me happy, - the replacement of orchestra by piano, while the vocal part stays mostly the same, is the key change. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:22, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
I might suggest "piano accompaniments" rather than "piano arrangements": that makes it clear that there is still a vocal component, though it doesn't quite allow for vocal line changes (it's "mostly the same" vocal lines, so those are not untouched by Britten). I should note that for at least some of these, there was no orchestra, just continuo instruments such as violoncello and harpsichord, or organ, which Britten's piano scoring replaces. The phrase "piano arrangements" is ambiguous (could be piano alone, could be piano and voice); perhaps "created arrangements for voice and piano" could replace "created piano arrangements" if "accompaniments" does not find favor. Using "arrangements for voice and piano" would add 12 characters to the hook length, whether ALT4c or ALT4d. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:57, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Since this has been sitting approved but unpromoted for over two weeks despite being the oldest unpromoted hook, I'm going to write out my proposals per the above, though with the caveat that I think "accompaniments" has the weakness I noted:
I hope that someone will promote one of these soon, or at least point to why none of the hooks work for them. —BlueMoonset (talk) 22:13, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Once this took as long as it did, how about reserving it for 22 November, composer's birthday and St. Cecilia's Day, patron saint of music. A Boy was Born. Of the above hooks, I'd go for c2. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Reading the hooks again: someone who doesn't know that Purcell and Britten are composers might think of flower arrangements ;)
ALT4c3: ... that in his Purcell Realizations, Britten composed versions for voice and piano of songs by Henry Purcell, 250 years after his death? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, no one will think that "arrangements for voice and piano" are flower arrangements, even if no composers' names were mentioned or recognised. RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:17, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
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