Template:Did you know nominations/Bicycling in Islam

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Theleekycauldron (talk) 15:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Women and bicycling in Islam

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Fatma Aliye Topuz
Fatma Aliye Topuz
  • ... that feminist activists' struggles for liberation, like those of Fatma Aliye Topuz (pictured), were helped along by the bicycle? Source: Raab Alon, Women cycling in the Middle East url=https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003142041-52/wheels-fire-alon-raab work=Routledge Companion to Cycling doi=10.4324/9781003142041-52/wheels-fire-alon-raab
    • ALT1: ... that in May 2008, Queen Rania Al Abdullah of Jordan along with Syrian first lady Asma Akras Al Asad took part in a cycle ride for peace from Beirut to Bethlehem? Source: Madden, Steve, ed. (August 2008). "Pedaling for peace". Bicycling. Vol. 44, No. 7. USA: Rodale Inc. p. 34. ISSN 0006-2073.
    • ALT2: ... that Saudi Arabian and Iranian movies Wadjda and The Day I Became a Woman use bicycle as metaphor for independence? Source:Bennett, Bruce (2022-10-31), "Cycling and cinema", Routledge Companion to Cycling, London: Routledge, pp. 28, 115, ISBN 978-1-003-14204-1, retrieved 2023-02-13
    • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Södermanland Runic Inscription 113
    • Comment: Counting of expanded characters is too technical for me. But the article has been rejuvenated quite a fresh in last 4 days. If fails the 5 times expansion criteria please let me know I shall withdraw the nomination.

5x expanded by LegalSmeagolian (talk) and Bookku (talk). Nominated by Bookku (talk) at 17:32, 12 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Bicycling in Islam; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

  • The first DYK source is accessed by request from WP:REREQ quote is included in the article citation that shall help verification, rest of the 2 DYKs were accessed from Google books. Bookku (talk) 12:19, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @LegalSmeagolian and Bookku: Could you please explain how you arrived at 5x expansion? I am not able to replicate your calculations using the DYK tool, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. (If the article is eligible, I would like to have the article run on International Women's Day if possible...but I do have a few very specific comments about things to fix first.) Cielquiparle (talk) 16:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @Cielquiparle: Sorry I am not technical enough for exact counting. But we rescued article from AFD claims, renamed and almost WP:TNT new start over. In number of sentences terms we may have retained at the most five sentences from version prior to 7 Feb, We added almost 30 new sentences. If you do not count bibliography part then new sentences are 5 times. Bibliography too was added by me in December.
Since it is almost afresh I thought to present it over to this forum. we wish to respect rules and guidance. Bookku (talk) 18:36, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Article is new enough (expansion began on February 7 and was submitted on February 12). Although the way in which the 5x expansion was calculated did not, strictly speaking, adhere to the rules, based on the explanation given above, I see that the "original" article had 620 characters (105 words) of "salvageable prose" and by February 12, it had expanded to 4,795 characters (777 words). (The article is now at 5,786 characters (948 words) of prose.) On this basis, we can say that the article is long enough (expanded more than 5 times), and I would just ask that next time, you read the rules and install the DYK check tool so there is no uncertainty or confusion. (Basically, it's cleaner to delete all the prose you are not planning to keep, the day before you start expanding.) The article is well sourced throughout, with inline citations, and a lot of care has gone into trying to maintain a detached and neutral tone about a very sensitive and controversial subject. Earwig says copyvio is unlikely, although I do have one immediate concern which I will explain below. The QPQ is done. ALT0 is OK. So what is left is to discuss the other hooks and address some related issues:
1) Please minimize the text quoted in Footnote 2 (the Raab chapter). It is too long and will raise flags down the line. I understand maybe you just included it to help the DYK reviewer, but we don't need it anymore, so please only include 2 to 3 key sentences at most.
2) ALT1 is not approved, as I was unable to verify this fact based on the source. While it's fine to just discard the hook if you don't want to fix it, the corresponding claim in the article still needs to be fixed. The original text (which is easily accessed through Wikipedia Library) says Follow the Women bike tour (followthewomen.com), from Beirut, Lebanon, to the Palestinian city of Bethlehem. The cyclists, whose ranks included women in long sleeves and head scarves, and women who'd learned to ride just to join the trip, rode with queen Rania Al-Abdullah of Jordan as well as Syrian first lady Asma Akhras Al-Assad, crossed the Jordan River (which was neither deep nor wide, they reported), shared meals with locals and visited refugee camps... Many of the Arab women ended their ride early... The reason I object to the current wording of ALT1 is that it makes it sound like both Queen Rania and First Lady Asma al-Assad rode together all the way from Beirut to Bethlehem, when in fact, based on other sources it sounds like they probably only joined a portion of the ride, because as ride sponsors, they were also responsible for hosting and officially receiving the cyclists. I would advise either finding a reliable source that explains their role a bit more clearly and modifying the article accordingly, or simplifying the sentence in the article so that it sticks closer to what the "Pedaling for Peace" article actually says (that the Rania and Asma "rode with" the women, without implying they both rode with the women the whole way).
3) In ALT2, the word "powerful" sounds non-neutral in wikivoice, so it needs to be reworded somehow – e.g. simply striking the word "powerful" out, or using wording to make it clear that there is a specific scholar you are naming in the article who says it's a "powerful metaphor" (e.g. "is viewed as a powerful metaphor...").
If you could please address these issues ASAP, I am happy to approve the hook for DYK. Many thanks for your hard work in rethinking and reworking this insightful article following the AfD discussion. Cielquiparle (talk) 19:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Pinging @Bookku:. (Also edited my own copy above.) Cielquiparle (talk) 19:49, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle Many thanks for valuable inputs. We shall ping you as we accomplish suggested improvements. Although Alt1 and Alt2 are not must- in the article and in DYKs too I have tried to present diversity across regions in Muslim women's cycling practices and there by avoiding stereotype.
1) I have trimmed ref note a bit, I am also contemplating to split in feminist view and orthodox view and look for further scope of trimming as required.
2) For Alt1 I shall request @LegalSmeagolian and Ipigott: to help out to avoid grammar mistakes from my side when article is soon about to go for DYK. I suppose for Alt1 more sources may be available in Jordan and Syrian Arabic news media, but availability of such sources shall take it's own time.
3) About Alt2 metaphor of cycle in photographs has been discussed by author Raab too but without using word metaphor. Besides both the movies have been explored favorably by multiple academic authors though I could not spare enough time on all of those. I am removing word 'powerful' from 'powerful metaphor' as of now as suggested. Idk if word 'substantial' will be enough for toning down.
Just now saving in bit of hurry. I shall work further a little while later.
Bookku (talk) 05:08, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
@Bookku: Thanks for your response. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Approving ALT0, ALT1, and ALT2. The current wordings of both ALT1 and ALT2 have been amended slightly to address concerns raised earlier (ALT1 says "took part in" instead of "took"; the word "powerful" has been removed from ALT2). The direct quote in the footnote has been split and shortened (though it could be shortened more, it is better than before). Additional sources and content have been added re: the Follow the Women bike tour. Happy to have this promoted for International Women's Day (8 March 2023, Prep Area 1) if possible. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
@RoySmith, the link created by you seem to go some where else. I suppose that needs to be WT:DYK#Bicycling in Islam Bookku (talk) 06:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, my bad. The WT link is the correct one, thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
This is just for record. I had discussed my views on some of the concerns expressed @ User talk:RoySmith/Archive 52#To clear the air. To be editorially neutral I will take their relevant concerns on article talk page for discussion after present round of article update by other users. Bookku (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
Update. Picking this back up now (working on article). Please don't close this nomination. Cielquiparle (talk) 17:32, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle: any progress? BorgQueen (talk) 11:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
I guess is the answer is "not much", as I see the orange tag is still there. BorgQueen (talk) 17:18, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
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