Talk:Zond 5

The name «Tyazheliy Sputnik» doesn’t fit for «Zond 5»

«Tyazheliy Sputnik» (which is the same as «Heavy Sputnik») means «The complex of the probe and Block L stage»[1]. Examples of such complexes were Sputnik 7, Sputnik 8 with Venera 1 as the probe, Sputnik 23 with Mars 1 as the probe, Zond 1…Zond 3. All of them were launched by using Molniya (rocket) (aka SL-6/A-2-e)[2].

Zond 4…Zond 8 — were launched in a similar, but much heavier schema by Proton (rocket). Those «Zonds» were in fact Soyuz 7K-L1 unmanned spacecrafts with Block D 4th stage and the total weight at least above 20,000kg. Even though it was named on NASA site [3], as «Tyazheliy Sputnik» — that is quite different from the first «Tyazheliy Sputnik» — Sputnik 7. --Alogrin (talk) 11:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

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Additional sources

Listing here for inclusion Kees08 (Talk) 07:52, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• Russian article I did ten minutes of Duo Lingo and it still looks like a foreign language
• Science Magazine - second source that hypothesizes that it could be used for interplanetary missions, might be worth including in article
• DTIC
• Figure out how to find PDF of this (which is probably in Russian)
• UPI version - nothing new except it sounds like Zond 5 used EP?
• Prelude to Mars? - speculative and I do not plan to include; will leave here if someone disagrees with me
• Good for results section
  • Don't feel like forming the citation right now, so general notes: they were dehydrated too, the control tortoises lost 5% body mass, the fed/watered control tortoises lived in a vivarium, the results specifically say that most of the changes of the tortoises were due to starvation/dehydration but partially due to spaceflight, 6-7 years old, and their pre-flight diet is listed
• Drosophila article
• Schematic of flight
• A bit of information on the previous flight
• PDF page 14, very unclear image of tortoises mounted in spacecraft
• This says the first dummy flew on Zond 7

Photos

Nice work lately, great topic to focus on. Wondering if there are any useable photos of the spacecraft and, importantly, the tortoises and other travelers. The tortoises have a major historical role, and it would be nice to know as much about them as possible (I don't click on most links, so the good sources above may have some data), and how they died, where are the tortoise shells if kept, etc. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:49, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I was hoping for photos as well. I asked Huntster on Commons here. It sounds like the photos have all rights reserved unfortunately, so we would be unable to. The photos would be nice to upload, but since they are not absolutely required for the article, I do not think fair use applies.

I am interested in the outcome of the tortoises as well. There are two articles above I believe that discuss the scientific results that I intend to include into the article (was planning on doing it after the GA review, for no particular reason other than to give myself a break). I was really excited to find that they were numbered, that information was buried and I do not think well known! I will include other information as I unearth it. Kees08 (Talk) 14:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Good work. Wondering if they just killed the tortoises when they returned to poke and prod around their innards and chemicals, like the execution of the four surviving mice from the Apollo 17 mission. I would argue for fair use because of the magnitude of the historic place in spaceflight of the two tortoises. Glad that a GA process is occurring, this has certainly been one of the overlooked or underappreciated accomplishments of the 1960s space race. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I feel bad for the pre-flight brain implants Félicette had (plus they killed her post-flight too). If you have Animals in Space: From Research Rockets to the Space Shuttle, and if it has information on the cat, I would be grateful for your help (trying to limit my book purchasing..). I have several sources I have been collecting offline for that article as well. My presumption is that the tortoises were killed to be studied, but I will find a source for that first. Kees08 (Talk) 22:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

But the cat grew up in Paris, so there's that. I don't have the book, but it sounds interesting (thanks). Yes, the non-human space travelers had it rough for a long time. And since Félicette was only in space for a few minutes, and any changes in her brain (which should have been obviously doubtful) may well have reverted back after two months, the decision to "examine" her brain is worthy of derision and second-guessing. The talk of the monument in Paris on her page will hopefully occur. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:56, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

It seems like it will. The organizer is actually the person I am receiving all the sources from, they have been very helpful. Kees08 (Talk) 23:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Cool. Please thank him for me, a noble undertaking. Will be nice to see the completed statue and for it to have its own page on Wikipedia. I'd suspect a good photo of the statue will be used on many pages. Just added Félicette to the List of cats as the first item (just happened to work out that way). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:02, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Zond 5/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Nova Crystallis (talk · contribs) 01:18, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Reviewing later. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 01:18, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• All sorts of date formats in the infobox.

  Consistent now Kees08 (Talk)

• The picture in the infobox is an example of a Zond program satellite, or is only for Zond 5?

  Program; changed caption Kees08 (Talk)

• The lead is missing what the Soviets gained from the results of the satellite.

  Added all the results I have right now Kees08 (Talk)

• "a version of the Soyuz 7K-L1 crewed lunar-flyby spacecraft" Is a lot more important to mention in the first paragraph.

  Done Kees08 (Talk)

• "Out of four circumlunar launches, the Soviets had one partial success (Zond 4) and three failures." The parentheses could be replaced with commas.
  • Same could be done for the next sentence.

  Done for both Kees08 (Talk)

• Link vivarium and Russian Academy of Sciences.

  Done Kees08 (Talk)

• "The spacecraft also had the ability to image the Earth. Kazan Optical and Mechanical Plant (KOMZ) developed the AFA-BA/40 imager, which was installed on the spacecraft." Did the imager take pictures of the Earth?

  I assume so, but I never found a source that said that directly, which is why I avoided saying it in the article. Kees08 (Talk)

• "launch pad 81" You mean "Site 81"?
  • Or in the infobox, "81/23"?

    That was a great catch; thanks. I checked both my sources on the launch and neither list the pad so removing that from the infobox. Kees08 (Talk)

• "Offgas" Outgassing?

  Done Kees08 (Talk)

• "Zond 5 became the first spacecraft to circle the Moon and return to land on Earth. On September 18, the spacecraft flew around the Moon, although it did not orbit the Moon." Merge/reword these sentences. Mention the date first at least.

  I moved it to the reentry section Kees08 (Talk)

• Mention and cite splashdown coordinates.

  Done Kees08 (Talk)

• Maybe link the Space Race?

  Done Kees08 (Talk)

• "The British Interplanetary Society believed that TASS would be able to send cosmonauts around the Moon in a matter of months." What TASS?
  • If it's this one, how could a news agency send cosmonauts into space?

    Woops. Fixed. Kees08 (Talk)

• "Another analysis showed the flying tortoises had elevated iron and glycogen levels in their livers. The flight also affected the shape of their spleen." Merge sentences.

  Done Kees08 (Talk)

• Anything happened with the rest of the biological payload?

  I don't think I have access to any of the sources that explain the results, like the Drosophila results. I did plan to seek them out and include them at a later date for a FAC run. Kees08 (Talk)

• "RKK Energiya museum, in Russia." Which city?

  Near Moscow, done Kees08 (Talk)

Just a few things. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 04:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: I am done for tonight if you want to rerun your date script, I accidentally reverted a couple of them. Kees08 (Talk) 05:57, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

mealwarms; wine flies or fruit fly eggs

@Kees08: The list of Earthlings doesn't match up between the lead and the body. Were there mealwarms? Were mature wine flies included or were they just fruit fly eggs or wine fly eggs? --- Coffeeandcrumbs 04:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I recall reading through a lot of sources and picking the list from what I deemed the most reliable, but let me check on this tomorrow. Kees08 (Talk) 05:07, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Payload other than tortoise:
Mannequin NSSDCA Wine flies NSSDCA The Atlantic 1968 AP article Meal worms NSSDCA The Atlantic 1968 AP article Plants NSSDCA The Atlantic 1968 AP article Bacteria NSSDCA The Atlantic 1968 AP article Drosophila eggs Siddiqi Wheat, barley, pea, pine, carrot, tomatoes, tradescantia paludosa Siddiqi Chlorella Siddiqi Lysogenic bacteria Siddiqi

Siddiqi cites "Results of biological investigations undertaken on Zond-5, Zond-6 and Zond-7 stations" (page 161). Since Siddiqi had a source and the others did not, I ended up using his list in the prose. I think I can change the article to reflect Siddiqi, maybe after verifying that it interprets the source material accurately. Kees08 (Talk) 02:52, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I collapsed the list. I agree with going with Siddiqi but can you make the lead agree with the body: "Fruit fly eggs" instead of "Wine flies" and I don't see mealworms mentioned in the body. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 03:28, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Fruit fly eggs added; removed mealworms from lead since it was not in Siddiqi. Kees08 (Talk) 03:40, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:47, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Zond 5

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that two Russian tortoises on Zond 5 were among the first Earthlings to fly around the Moon and return safely to Earth?

• Reviewed: Melitta Muszely
• Comment: Please reserve for July 2019. Holding area is at WP:DYKNA#July 16–24 (50th Anniversary of Apollo 11)

Improved to Good Article status by Kees08 (talk). Nominated by Coffeeandcrumbs (talk) at 05:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC).

Interesting, solid GA on excellent sources, Russian sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. I like the hook but am not sure about the capital Earthlings. July date fine by me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

• Hi, I came by to promote this, but I don't see an inline cite for the hook fact. Yoninah (talk) 20:32, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

The hook should read like so to avoid the mistaken intepretation that there may have been early missions that accomplished something similar to this mission.

• ALT 1: ...that two Russian tortoises were among the Earthlings on Zond 5 that became the first to fly around the Moon and returned safely to Earth?

@Yoninah: I have copied the source over to provide an inline citation. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 21:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• @Coffeeandcrumbs: this is the sentence with the hook fact that needs a cite: Zond 5 carried the first terrestrial organisms to return safely to Earth after flying around the Moon.
• ALT1 is a bit convoluted. How about piping the link?
• ALT2: ... that two Russian tortoises were aboard the first spacecraft to fly around the Moon and return safely to Earth? Yoninah (talk) 21:10, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I think that works. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 21:22, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• @Coffeeandcrumbs: thanks. And the cite? Yoninah (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 21:33, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• Thank you. Restoring tick per Gerda Arendt's review. Yoninah (talk) 21:45, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Copy edit queries

• What is "the LES"?
  • Launch Escape System, but usually it just receives signals and does not send them, so I removed that part. Actually I removed a lot of it; mostly unnecessary details, and added a source. Kees08 (Talk)
• "weighing 0.34–0.4 kg" Each, or together?
  • Per tortoise; added 'each' Kees08 (Talk)
• "to image the Earth" reads oddly. Does "image" mean 'photograph'?
  • Image is often used since a lot of space imaging is not in the visible light spectrum (I think photographs have to be?). I am indifferent to which term we use. Kees08 (Talk)

I see what you mean. OK. I have added a couple of links.

• "affected the shape of their spleen" Is this due to the "elevated iron and glycogen levels in their liver[s]", or something entirely separate?
  • Due to the flight, according to the source. Reading the source's source (the scientific paper), I do not believe the actual shape of the spleen changed but rather cellular structure internal to it. "The spleen follicles were diminished..." amongst even more complicated phrases related to biology. The second half of the paper was torture to read through. Kees08 (Talk)

Tweaked,

Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:19, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

• Terrestrial is a DAB; and looking at the DAB list, it seems like it typically refers to land-dwelling species instead of Earth dwelling. I think earthling may be the better option, but not sure. PS I use an extension that highlights when links go to DAB pages so I find them really easily (and another extension that highlights fair use photos with a red border) Kees08 (Talk)

Oops. Removed. But the first words of the DAB give the usual dictionary definition: "Terrestrial refers to things related to land or the planet Earth." I think that the context makes it clear which is intended.

My problem with "Earthling" is its unencyclopedic tone. Have you ever come across it outside of science fiction? ("Take me to your leader, Earthling!")

• Booster and rocket are, as far as I am aware, synonyms, so we can use Proton rocket or Proton booster, but probably not Proton rocket booster. Proton stage is another option; oftentimes rocket refers to the entire launch vehicle, booster can be mixed use (for stage or full launch vehicle), and stage is a section of the rocket. Just my personal experience, not sure that reflects real life. Kees08 (Talk)

I would disagree - see the first words of Booster (rocketry). A quick google on the phrase gets plenty of links, including to several dictionary definitions.

I ran out of time to review all your edits, they look pretty good overall. I will try to look through the rest tomorrow; feel free to edit more between now and then. Kees08 (Talk) 07:30, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

No problem. I am about to go out. I think that I am close to done. It's your article, so feel free to override any of my edits or opinions - I won't be offended. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:34, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Just changed the capitalization on one thing. Was that all for your copyedit/review? I am willing to work on it more if you think it needs it. Just got done with the other articles we are promoting for the anniversary so turning my efforts back to polishing up the articles that will be on the main page. Kees08 (Talk) 22:51, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Kees08: Apologies, RL has been a little busy and I lost track of some of my Wiki-activities. Yes, the copy edit is finished. It is, IMO, fit for the front page. Well done on a nice piece of research, and sorry that I forgot to ping you. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:23, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Cosmonaut crew communications test

Did this really cause a scare in the US? all the sources I can find suggest that Jodrell Bank at least assumed it was a tape recording. Ulivi's Lunar Exploration Human Pioneers and Robot Surveyors certianly states that as does Harvey's soviet and russian lunar exploration. As does this fairly solid website which credits the same conclusion to Bochum space observatory.©Geni (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Reference (link) to 'Discover' article

I'm sorry I can't figure out how to change the link in the article, but maybe someone more knowledgeable can change it. The link in reference 4 no longer exists, but I think https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/the-first-earthlings-around-the-moon-were-two-soviet-tortoises is the same article. Bruce Mardle (talk) 17:19, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The Discover article also has images of the two tortoises and of their capsule upon its return to Earth. Either or both of these would improve the page of this historic achievement. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:43, 1 October 2022 (UTC)