Talk:Wells Cathedral/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Untitled

Someone has got to clean this up and cite sources. I can tell just from reading the "present structure" section that this was copied word-for-word from the official cathedral website. This is unacceptable. --Criticalthinker 20:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You were right. Large sections were a direct copy & paste from the cathedral web site. I've now reworded these & added more content from a range of other sources. I'd be grateful for any further edits or comments as I'd like to get this article up to GA.— Rod ^talk 18:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

West Front

I think this subject deserves a sub-section of it's own. I have seen detailed descriptions of the different levels of the scultures and will try to find those references and add material. Recently i saw a tv show (buildings of britain - i think) where they talked about a row of holes from where trumpets were blown. These can be seen high up in the center of the picture of the west front. Elsewhere are places for choristers to stand and sing. Derek Andrews (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Bringing it up to GA

There's quite a lot of problems here. As has been pointed out, most of the info has been lifted from the cathedral website in its entirety, except for the Introduction which has been lifted from what I wrote, elsewhere. The intro has a signifcant error. The dates are in conflict, and no-one has fixed them.

The History on the Cathedral page is not very well written. It contains this statement which has obviously been written by someone who hasn't thought through what they meant. It's all perfectly true, just confusingly written: 'he built the south-west tower of the West Front and designed the north west, which was built to match in the early 1400s..

This tells us that the towers match. In other words, the designs are the same. So to say that he "built one" and "designed one" is simply confusing the issue. What it should say is: "He designed the western towers, of which the northwest tower was not completed until the early 1400s."

This type of confusing language is used at various other places. It could all be simpler and more readable.

I would not feel at all happy about putting up for promotion any article which is largely lifted from another website. It's plagiarism, and we can't take any credit for it. I'll see what I can do, but WARNING its likely to be radical.

Amandajm (talk) 07:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you about the plagiarism issues. As discussed above I have been through & re worded large chunks which were directly copied from the Wells cathedral web site & have found a variety of alternative sources - as it had almost no references when I started working on it a few weeks ago. I did copy some of your text for the intro - but take that as a compliment & if its already on wikipedia surely that is allowed? Some of the convoluted text may be mine & I would welcome "radical" editing.— Rod ^talk 09:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion about the dates of damage to the cathedral by solders you state that damage to the organ was caused during the Monmouth rebellion (1685) and yet give civil war dates I was unaware that any damage was due to the Monmouth rebellion ( although St Cuthbert’s church was used as a prison) and understood that the damage was caused by puritan solders in the civil war? (paul Ancill ancillp@msn.com ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancill (talk • contribs) 01:35, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Lists of sub & assistant organists etc

Would anyone object if I moved the lists of organists and assistant organists into a separate article - perhaps List of organists and assistant organists of Wells Cathedral in the same way that the Dean of Wells and Bishop of Bath and Wells are in stand alone lists. The Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Embedded lists discourages lists in the body of the article and I t5hinbk this would be a barrier to getting this to GA.— Rod ^talk 13:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

That is a very good idea.--Charles (talk) 13:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Tis done. Any other help in getting this article to GA standard would be great.— Rod ^talk 14:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Pictures

I would like to get this article up to GA standard. I am grateful for the help so far received (and more promised). As part of this I would like to remove and/or reorganise some of the pictures which make the article look "cluttered". Template:Double image and Template:multiple image have been suggested as possible ways to help, but I think we need to remove some of them. Which pictures do other editors think should be kept, removed or put into duble or multiple image templates? They should of course all be in the category at Commons.— Rod ^talk 15:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Some comments on specific images:

• A picture of the chapter house and the ceiling would be great, but not the truly awful and ugly circular images in "Present structure" section.
• There is some clear duplication between the image entitled "The inverted arch in Wells Cathedral, in 2006." and "The nave and strainer arches c.1890". My suggestion is to keep the 2006 picture.
• There is also duplication between the "West front" infobox image and the one at the bottom entitled "Wells Cathedral sunset, November 2011" at the end of the article. My suggestion is to keep the infobox image.
• I don't think either of the clock pictures is especially good, yet the clock is one of the most impressive features of the cathedral. We need a single much better picture that shows off the whole clock.
• It would be nice to have pictures of the font, the organ, and the altar, but all three of the existing pictures are not very well framed.
• Pictures I really like include the "Chapter House steps", "The cloisters", "Plan showing four massive piers", "Elaborate metal work on the Undercroft door", and the "aerial picture showing the cathedral and Vicars Close".

I will take a look in the commons category and perhaps suggest some images on this page. --Bob Re-born (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - I'll await comments by others before removing them but re the clock - we could reuse one or more from Wells Cathedral clock.— Rod ^talk 21:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with all of Bob's comments (even though he binned a load of my Exmouth pics before he was re-born!) The worse picture by far for me is the "clock quarter jack". It could be wonderful. I really don't know why it's so bad. The circular images are indeed quite ugly. I think it's their novelty that makes them so. And there should definitely be some better ones of the glass and any notable monuments. Regrettably I have never visited or I might be able to offer better suggestions. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for comments - I have removed some listed above & moved others around. I'd be happy for more to go or be replaced.— Rod ^talk 22:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think we all need a good long look in Commons and to wait for any more comments from other editors. But an improvement already, I think. (While I personally like "The cloisters" as an image, it would perhaps be more accurately captioned "a large yewtree in the churchyard with the cloisters in the background"). The altar is a very nice image too, but (even if not historically significant) needs a mention somewhere in the text. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Bells

I noticed the other day that the bells were described as being anti-clockwise. As a bell-ringer myself, and having heard that the bells of Bath Abbey are the only anti-clockwise peal of 10 in the world, I was surprised and this and suspected it to be incorrect. Then yesterday I rang there myself for the first time and found that they are indeed clockwise, as is usual. So I have deleted the relevant sentence. Matthew Butler

If at all possible could the notes of the bells be added? A list or table might be better, where dates of casting could also be easily incorporated. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Choirs and Choristers

The sections on Choirs and Choristers seem to be closely related. Do others think they could be combined into one section?— Rod ^talk 14:14, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

In fact I think these two + Vicars Choral and the Voluntary Choir could all be combined into one sub section - thus shortening the overlong table of contents.— Rod ^talk 14:23, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Combined three, but left the Voluntary choir separate. Amandajm (talk) 23:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I believe there is a way of formatting the TOC so that it doesn't show all the sub-sub-sections, meaning that under the sub-heading Exterior you could lose the list facade, tower, porch etc. I don't know how it's done. Amandajm (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I have found and used Template:TOC limit which enables you to set the level of subheadings shown.— Rod ^talk 08:37, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! I might apply it here and there myself!

As you can see, I've fiddled with the pics some more, and I think they are looking OK. Thos two exterior shots of the north side Tower and porch really are terribly gloomy! I'm very pleased with the set of four that show the last bays of the choir, the Lady Chapel and the retrochoir. Even though that retrochoir pic is low resolution, it goes very well in that gallery. It would be nice to have one from about the same angle with the same degree of brightness, but bigger file. I ask a lot, don't I? Amandajm (talk) 09:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Anything else needed before GA nom?

Can anyone think of anything else that is needed to meet the Good article criteria?— Rod ^talk 21:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Rodw, you've done a great job of preparing this to put forward. I think it's time to do it. Amandajm (talk) 00:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

OK Nom done.— Rod ^talk 08:39, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Wells' Bells

Does anybody out there know them personally enough to call them by name? Do they have dedications or inscriptions? Amandajm (talk) 01:29, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Wells Cathedral/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk · contribs) 14:28, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't usually review architecture articles, and I got a little baffled part-way through this, but I couldn't resist as I'm rather fond of Wells Cathedral. There are only a few little issues for me, mainly regarding POV words, but nothing major. Spot-checks of the sources were generally fine, but there were one or two little issues. I'm not sure if this is aimed at FA; while it is more than comfortably going to meet the GA criteria, I would suggest getting some other editors to check this one before FAC as I cannot vouch for my architectural knowledge! Overall, an enjoyable read and pretty accessible for the most part. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:50, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• The stonework of its pointed arcades and fluted piers is enriched by the pronounced mouldings and the vitality of the carved capitals in a foliate style known as "stiff leaf". The exterior has a fine Early English façade with over three hundred sculptured figures.": Some of this is a little POV, and I'm uncomfortable with "vitality" and "fine" in an encyclopaedia article unless attributed.

• "Fine facade" is the least POV thing that any writer could say. What it indicates is that it is "intact", and "true to type" in a bit the way that a coin might be described as "fine".
• "Vital" is the precise form of the word used by AC-T. It's now referenced in the Intro. Amandajm (talk) 05:50, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• "As well as continuing the building campaign begun by Bishop Reginald, Jocelin was responsible for building the Bishop's Palace, as well as a choristers' school, a grammar school, an hospital for travellers and a chapel": As well as…as well as.

• Reworded— Rod ^talk 15:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• "He lived to see the church dedicated in 1239, but despite much lobbying in Rome…" Lobbying by who? And for the uninitiated, lobbying of who (and maybe why)?

• Reworded and a sentence added to explain.— Rod ^talk 15:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• "it already seemed too small for the developing liturgy, unable to accommodate its increasingly grand processions.": I'm not entirely sure what this means.

• Added a few words about the increasing number of clergy.— Rod ^talk 15:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• "was removed in an operation known as 'the great scrape'.": Is there a reason why single quotation marks are used here?

• Changed

Amiens Cathedral

• "The base is penetrated by three doors, which are in stark contrast to the magnificent portals of French Gothic cathedrals…": A hint of POV?

• Well, perhaps. Only perhaps. In France, the portals are very large, are emphasised by the architecture and are the main location of the architectural sculpture of the exterior of the building. They are renowned for their magnificence and are reproduced in every work on mediaeval architecture and sculpture. For this reason, a student might well expect that the three entrances of any Gothic cathedral might be grand. But two of these doorways are no bigger than one might find in a large house of the same period, and even the central one looks like a porch door, in France. Amandajm (talk) 05:25, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• "and together they constitute the finest display of medieval carving in England": More POV?

• No. This is without question. It's not a matter of aesthetic judgement; it's a matter of survival. Fewer of the statues were toppled, smashed, beheaded or defaced than at other locations. Amandajm (talk) 05:25, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• ""a masterpiece if the Early English style"": Is "if" a typo?

• Changed.— Rod ^talk 15:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• "The capitals themselves are remarkable for the vitality of the stylised foliage, in a style known as "stiff-leaf". The liveliness contrasts with the formality of the moulded shafts…" And again, a little POV?

• "vitality/liveliness". There needs to be an adjective that encapsulates the character of the particular style of foliage. If one was writing about the equally famous foliage in the chapter house at Southwell, for example, then terms like "naturalistic", "life-like" and "Botanical" would be used, and almost surely would not be queried as POV. The foliage at Wells is none of these things. It is highly abstracted. On the other hand, it has enormous "vitality". It gives a semblance of being alive and growing, with tremendous energy. So "vitality" and "liveliness" are used in place of "naturalistic" and "lifelike". There are a whole string of such words that are used by art historians to describe the essential qualities of an artwork, and which are descriptive rather than qualitative judgements, e.g. "exquisite" means that an art object is finely and precisely detailed; it doesn't mean that it is "extremely beautiful", hence a miniature painting might be described as "exquisite" but Michelangelo's ceiling of the Sistine Chapel would not. Amandajm (talk) 05:25, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Spot-checks: I did quite a few spot-checks which revealed no problems. Then I found two pieces of possible close-paraphrasing which need fixing, but subsequent re-checks revealed no other issues, so I'm happy enough once these are sorted.

• Text: "Wells Cathedral has ten bells, the heaviest ring of ten bells in the world"
• Source: "The bells at Wells Cathedral are the heaviest ring of ten bells in the world."

• Reworded (but there are a limited number of ways to say this.— Rod ^talk 15:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Quite agree. Surely these are facts? How far does Wikipedia have to go to reword well-written facts into clumsily-written facts (no aspersions, Rod), just to avoid charges of plagiarism, close paraphrasing and laziness? It's becoming a real trademark. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:57, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• My understanding is that if there is literally only one way to say something, or a very limited number of ways, then according to US law (which defines the copyvio rules here) it is fine to use as there is no "creativity" involved. But in this case (and it's an unusual phrase anyway), "heaviest ring of ten bells" is almost certainly not the only way to say it. The same for "also well-represented", which could be phrased as something like "other subjects/disciplines are also included". My own view is that it's better safe than sorry. Others are less strict than this, but plenty of others are more so! Sarastro1 (talk) 16:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

*I'm sure you are doing your reviewer's job here with both rigour and fairness. My point is simply that there often seems to be two ways of saying something - one elegant and one clumsy. It's often possible to read a wikipedia article and spot the quaint avoidance of copy-vio. Safety has a price I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:21, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

There really is only one way to make this statement clearly. Rod's change turned it into a mis-statement as "of this size" is not the same as "ring of ten bells", and "in the world" and "worldwide" don't mean the same thing either. The writing of the sentence in the original is not creative, as pointed out above. A sentence like "John F. Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963" must have been written by someone, but it could hardly be the subject of a copyright issue, and neither could this. Amandajm (talk) 05:25, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• Text: "The collection's core subject is theology, but science, medicine, history, exploration and languages are also well represented."
• Source: "The core of the collection of some 2,800 volumes is theology, but science, medicine, history, exploration and languages are also well-represented."

• Reworded.— Rod ^talk 15:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll have a fiddle with this section. Amandajm (talk) 04:36, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Done. Amandajm (talk) 05:25, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Images: Fine. I'd like a little more publication information for the pre-1923 source of File:WellsCathPlan numbered.JPG if at all possible, but not a huge issue.

• fixed. Amandajm (talk) 04:36, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing: Not a GA issue, but it may be an idea to standardise the references used. Some use "page" others use "p". Some references include the year of publication (not just those where more than one source by the same author is used), others do not. Also, the comma use is inconsistent.

• Reference 64 is really not acceptable in a GA.

• Well spotted! Amandajm (talk) 06:08, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• There is a strange blacklisted URL appearing on the checklinks page (see the tool at the top of this page) for the Wells CVC website. It may also be worth adding the subscription required template to the ODNB entry.

• The strange blacklisting appears to relate to the site wanting to play you music when you go to it not sure what to do about it?— Rod ^talk 15:33, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Seems a little ironic to blacklist the choir site for wanting to play music... although am now a little disappointed that I got none when I opened it. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

That's a new one for me! I'd imagine there is little that needs doing, or can be done. That tool sometimes throws up odd results, and it looks a little odd today. It can be left as it is as far as I'm concerned. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:16, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll place this on hold for now, but happy to pass when these minor issues are cleared up. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:50, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I've dealt with some of the MOS one and will look at others. I will ask User:Amandajm, as the main author of much of the architecture section to comment on the "POV" comments - many of these phrases are well used in architectural writing and have particular meanings.— Rod ^talk 15:33, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I wondered if this might be the case, and I'm more than happy to bow to architecture editors on this one. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Observation by Giano

I have not seen any unjustified POV, but perhaps some of the terms need to be explained in slightly more common English: I think this is not far off FA (it's better than a GA), but as I have been asked, here are a few minor nitpicks.  Giano  17:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• "The walls are lined with deep niches framed by narrow shafts with capitals and shaft-rings like those of the portal." I'm not sure what this means, and I can't imagine many people will know what a "shaft ring" is - and it's probably best not to speculate.  Giano  16:58, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• "The exterior of Wells Cathedral presents a relatively tidy and harmonious appearance since the greater part of the building was executed in a single style." which is? I'm sure it says somewhere in the article, full of to many unfamiliar terms, but I have forgotten what it is by the tie I have reached that section.  Giano  17:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Improved this. Amandajm (talk) 03:40, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• A few terms need 'blueing' or explaining. I have no idea what a 'retrochoir' is. Similarly any will not be familiar wit a 'stellar vault'

• Retroquire is blue in the construction section. Stellar vault redirects to Rib vault, so I've added a link.— Rod ^talk 17:21, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• The article on Rib vault is mostly an old cut'n'paste from Britannica. I'll sort it out and illustrate it. I think the term "stellar" ought to be fairly self-explanatory. Amandajm (talk) 03:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I know as much about architecture as most people, and I did not know the term. If it's a rib vault, call it a rib vault. My English is not bad, but to me stellar means good. In relation to a vault, stars do not automatically spring to mind - now the connection is made - I see it, but i would still call it by it's more common name.  Giano  09:13, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• "retrochoir", explained; shaft-rings, changed to "annular mouldings", and "annulet"; "stellar vault" and "lierne" explained. Amandajm (talk) 12:52, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• There are a lot of flowery quotes, most of which are OK, but "of immortal and perfect loveliness" make me, as an architectural writer, cringe with embarrassment. could we lose it? And as for "a veritable glimpse into fairyland" - enough said - pass the sick bag.

• Sure. "Immortal and perfect loveliness' has gone.

<How do you respond to this "In describing the vista through the retrochoir and Lady Chapel, architectural historians have used terms such as "pure poetry"[72] and "a veritable glimpse into fairyland".[74]"? It's still utterly icky, but it gives a picture of how viewers respond to this sight. I am loathe to delete anything quite so clearly over-the-top!

• Mmmmm; visitors are as visitors do. I am quite sure that when I dragged my fully wired and iPoded up adolescent sons through Wells Cathedral one did not turn to the other and say "Oh look, Angelo, there is a veritable glimpse into fairyland" even in Italian, I have a feeling this would not have been said. However, you have the source - so some idiot must have said it - so leave it - if you must.  Giano  09:06, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• Giano, I cannot conceive of any super-cool adolescent Italian male who would express themselves in that manner. I have been acquainted with a number of super-cool adolescent Italians. The young man behind the information desk of whom I enquired the time of the train from Florence to Bologna replied "Who cares?" and then told the person to whom he was talking on his cell-phone that the stupid English woman thought he was the coolest person in the world.
• My sons are not Italian. They are not even remotely Italian. My sons are 1/4 Irish. My sons are perfectly capable of seeing fairies, even if yours aren't! Moreover, one of my sons spent a good part of his theatrical career being a fairy. He and Hugo Weaving started out in A Midsummer Night's Dream together. Look where being a fairy got Hugo! [1] Amandajm (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

WhatI was too subtly trying to say was that the quote sounds as though the article relies on the opinions of a half-witted, gushing vicar's wife who died in 1899, rather than a reliable authoritative source.  Giano  10:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

No, Dear! Haven't you lived in England long enough to know that it was probably the vicar himself?

It's gone, anyway......... Amandajm (talk) 11:59, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

delighted to here it.  Giano  12:52, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• "They are not typical, however, and this classification has been challenged.[86]" Interesting, but why and by whom? - a simple ref is not enough. Perhaps best not to mention it at all, if we aren't going to have the story.

• I fiddled with this. The ref to the negative side doesn't look very reliable, but is obviously correct in dismissing one of the figures as a Sheelah. Amandajm (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Much better.  Giano  10:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• "The reason for their construction may have been in part because of the pleasant ambience which cloisters in general create." whose speculation is this? Do they create a pleasant ambience? - were people concerned with ambience in medieval times? Some people might say cloisters are spooky and Harry Potterish. The most likely reason is as a rain-proof corridor/arcade connecting various precincts, but even that is speculation.  Giano  09:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• It's a rewording of whatever the cited ref is. Amandajm (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
• My POV is that although you are almost certainly correct in the speculation that they were corridors for getting from pointA etc, that Yes, pleasant ambience played a big part in the thinking behind many Gothic structures. By the time they built these cloisters, they had been an architectural form for hundreds of years, and before that, the Romans had built pleasant little courtyards with flowers and fountains. "Ambience" was around as a concept. A kid whose education into the nature of cloisters begins with a scene where an evil teacher in a vampire cloak walks up behind three innocent eleven-yr-olds and hisses :Someone might think you're up to something!" just might have a very different and perhaps less valid view than a monk who took a turn around the cloister as a little break between pages of copying. Amandajm (talk) 10:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I think you are relying too heavily on rewording the reffs - I'll have a look in a moment and make sure we are not too close to copyvio - it's easily done. I don't like the word "ambiance" you are selling the cathedral not giving an architectural summary.  Giano  10:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not insisting on that wording. I'm merely speculating on the nature of cloisters. Let's reword it or cut it. Amandajm (talk) 11:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

AC-T waffles on about it: ....the sheer pleasure they provide: and what better reason can be imagined? Amandajm (talk) 11:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's waffle. He's almost certainly right, but it really doesn't need anything more than the facts.

It's fixed. Amandajm (talk) 11:59, 11 March 2013 (UTC).

• I'm almost finished; I don't like nitpicking other people's work, it's why I rarely do this sort of review. Hower, as we are here: "It is probable that they served for processional purposes, a reason supported by the fact that at neither cathedral is there a north range." I think it needs to be explained why the absence of a north range makes this probable. It's repeating references again, without giving an understanding of why - most people will not be religious experts.  Giano  13:05, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I've just tweaked the following sentence to make it clear that the range described as "south-facing" is in fact the "north range". Amandajm (talk) 13:22, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

"It is probable that they served for processional purposes, a reason supported by the fact that at neither cathedral is there a north range" What I actually want to know does why does the absence of a north range make it probable that the cloisters were used for processions? Why should anyone need to process there - does it link the high altar to the robing rooms? Church processions usually lead to the altar or the cathedra from the western most entrance; so why are the cloisters en-route - that's what needs explaining.  Giano  16:15, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I'm perfectly happy to accept that the "POV" terms are OK in architectural writing if Giano says so. Perhaps if he someone could check which ones are fine and which ones need tweaking, that may be the best way forward. I agree that this is closer to FA than GA. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Giano, please check my lst 3 or four edits, and I think you'll find it's all done! Need coffee! It's almost midnight. Amandajm (talk) 12:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

You shouldn't drink coffee so late at night. Almost there, just one more query above and then I'll give it a final read through.  Giano  13:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Hummmph! I have a large mug of Twinings Camomile and Spearmint Tea and four Arnott's Vita-Weats with Vegemite. I would much rather have a strong cup of coffee and a wee nip! Amandajm (talk) 13:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Whether driven by tea or coffee it looks as if you two have been doing great things to the article while I've been at work.— Rod ^talk 17:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Just the one remaining query above about processions and the as fas as I'm concerned Sarastro1 can GA it.  Giano  17:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I don' think it was as simple as processing from here to there. In countries where the weather is a little more predictable, outdoor religious processions have always been a feature. Parading around the town in the full drag, with banners and statues and holy pictures is a bit more risky in England.

The excessively long naves of Norwich, Ely, Peterborough and Winchester were built for procession. Wells, being planned as a cathedral from the start, had a role in serving the community which was not quite the same as the monastic cathedrals. The cloister at Wells is not a closed cloister. It had an entrance porch in the western range, not just a door, but a significant porch. I don't know what state it is now in, or whether there are photos, as it's impeded by other buildings. (I am at a geographic disadvantage.)

Anyway, a porch to the world suggests that it was a major mode of entry into the building. It would possible to assemble a considerable procession under cover, near the south tower, and then process all the way around three sides of the cloister, and in through the south transept door.

I think it is reasonable to simply state what Clifton-Taylor says about cloisters being built to facilitate processions. One doesn't have to have vast knowledge or be a genius to work out that this means people processed around the cloister.

Sorry Amanda, this is sounding dangerously like your own opinion and another's unsubstantiated opinion. Religious processions don't happen indoors or outdoors for no reason. Furthermore, they are not extended into private places like cloisters, they are for public spectacle not the exercise and health of those taking part. A porch would almost certainly have been built for reception of the noble dead, entering the cathedral precincts for burial within the cloisters (like a lychgate on a village church). The body had to be sprinkled with holy water etc before it entered consecrated ground. It's even possible that the cloisters were built for the purpose of burial - it was a lucrative business for a cathedral at the time. I don't know and neither it seems, does anyone else; so, I think without some more positive proof - speculation about processions has to go. It's potentially misleading; if it stays in the article it will be quoted as solid fact on numerous other sites within a year.  Giano  08:27, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Cloisters: In monastic churches the cloisters are indeed a private place and that is why they do not usually have a large porch onto the outside world. However, in this instance the cloisters were plainly built for some purpose other than the essentially private purpose they served in a monastic church.

A C-T supposes they may have been used for processional purposes. The fact that there was a substantial porch on the western wall of the cloister suggests a mode of public entry, which supports the idea of them having a processional purpose to about the same degree as the lack of a north range does. i.e. one can see how such a procession might have worked. And yes, it is speculation on the part of both myself and A C-T.

On the other hand, your suggestion relating to burials, is, I feel, a very good one. Amandajm (talk) 09:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I omitted to say that I thought your change makes it all perfectly clear that no-one knows. I have left a message below concerning grammar.Amandajm (talk) 09:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

What I want to know from Rod is, what were the buildings due west of the cloister and what is there now?

When I last visited (a couple of years ago) there was a gift shop west of the cloister attached to the wall of the cloister. Further south is the Penniless Porch and a National Trust shop - I will add this as questions to ask when I do the photography visit you asked for - they have now come back to me, but still trying to arrange access to misericords etc and suitable dates and times.— Rod ^talk 09:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

This porch, if it still exists, is about half way along the western wall of the Cloister, jutting onto the Green. There appears to be a wall at 90 degrees to the cloister wall. The porch must be located in the vicinity of that wall. Maybe it is incorporated into the gift shop.Amandajm (talk) 09:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, Rod, with regard to the library, I have found plans that show the library above the western range of the cloister, but the website states that it is above the east. Is it in fact above both, with the main visitor entrance being to the eastern range? If it isn't the library that currently occupies the upper floor of the western range, what is it? Amandajm (talk) 00:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Reid (1973 p113) says "The library chamber over Bubwith's cloister was 165 feet long, and we cannot tell how it was furnished and used in medieval times. As reconstructed after the troubles of the seventeenth century there seems to have been a room, as at present, about seventeen feet square overlooking the palace. The library proper stretched from this for some sixty feet towards the cathedral and was divided off by a partition, just north of the entrance to the external privy. About half the whole space was thus left unused. Then in 1728 there was an extension of thirty-three feet and the partition was moved northwards to its present position. This was to accommodate the books left to the library by Bishop Hooper and it seems likely that the whole was panelled at this time." - does that help?— Rod ^talk 09:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Ha! what if this thing that looks like a porch on the map is actually the external privy?

Rod, you really need to get up there and look! Wish I could join you! Are you far from Wells?

Even if you don't do anything else, please photograph the three misericords that are on display. Amandajm (talk) 09:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Update: Everything looks good from my viewpoint; I'm fine with what I thought was POV now (and have learned a little about architecture in the process!) so once Giano's last point it sorted, I'll pass this. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Misericords

Having just written this section, I realise it's too long. I'll chop it out, say a few lines here, and make a separate short article out of it.

Amandajm (talk) 07:22, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

My word, Amanda. With a few good images that could a fascinating article in itself. Well done. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I've looked at Misericords are fine all referenced and as they should be. It's a very nice page. Just the bit on the origing of the cloisters to sort.  Giano  22:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the cloister thing can be better sorted than it is. The "ambience" bit has gone. Well, I'll look again and make sure it is. The statement by A C-T that they were for processional purposes doesn't seem too hard a concept. Why don't you have a go at improving it, Giano?

because I am supposed to reviewing not improving. I strongly object the processional concept, but I will have a go.  Giano  08:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

As for the pics of the misericords.

I am hoping that Rod will go in there with his camera and get permission. There are three on display in a case on the wall, but they don't photograph as well as those that are not behind perspex. On the other hand, photographing those that are in situ is difficult because (according to another site) the seats don't turn up easily because of thick cushions that are tacked in place. I think I'll drop the online gallery an email and see if I can persuade him to upload a few to Wikimedia Commons.

The other online gallery consists of the same shots that I have access to, taken by JCD Smith.

As a short-term measure, I will upload a low res Smith photo as "Fair use".

Do you think that the misericord section is too long and detailed? I could make it into a separate article, but I'd like to wait and see what pictures Rod can come back with! If he could get several good ones, it would warrant an article.

Amandajm (talk) 05:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

That all sounds very encouraging. My own experiences with asking vicars for things to use at wikipedia have not been very successful, alas. But let's hope. I think you are very wise to wait and see what Rod can get. Photographing stuff in glass cases is very tricky, I find. The section certainly doesn't look too long to me. It looks very good - but if a separate article could be made, and this one trimmed a little, then so much the better, I guess. I think you and Rod have done a really first class job with this article, which looks about 1000% better than it did only a few weeks ago. Very well done. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

More misery Could someone please go to the misericord section where I have been hampered by my non-British keyboard. It needs a nice little pound sign typed in at the right place! Amandajm (talk) 06:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I've added the pound sign, but noticed that gryphons is to a dab page - should it pipe to Griffin?— Rod ^talk 07:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Right, I have a made a couple of minor changes to cloisters. I am happy with the page now and think it's good enough to be a GA. I see there are some further queries below, but as far as I'm all done here. I'll hand back to the chief reviewer  Giano  08:12, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

No, I tweaked cloisters a few more times. Something had got left out. Pleas check.

Also take in the main page, with a picture of the planet Saturn looking like a well-sucked gob-stopper!

Griffin! Is that how you spell the bloody thing! Amandajm (talk) 09:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Red links

I'll do Arnold of Nijmegen. You can fight it out over Bykonell and the Oratorio Society! Amandajm (talk) 09:58, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Cut and Paste from George Ponderevo's talk page

Medieval

Please don't change the letter case in articles about English churches. Almost every ancient English church, and certainly the cathedrals (with only three exceptions) are more simply designated as Medieval architecture rather than Gothic or Romanesque. The term is used in the same manner as Renaissance, Jacobean, Georgian, Victorian and Baroque. Amandajm (talk) 23:24, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Please try and get it right Amandajm, just follow the link. Honestly! George Ponderevo (talk) 23:33, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll go with that, until there is an appropriate link. It could go to the article about English cathedral architecture.

Re the cathedral school. Simpler is not necessarily better. The two statements were written very precisely and for good reason. The establishment of a choir does not necessarily indicate the founding of a school. It is the school that chooses to date their foundation to that point. Note that I have written "point" because a specific date is not available. The matter of dating of the foundation of the Cathedral School, as against the Choir, is somewhat contentious.

Re: "At the lowest level of the facade is a plain base, contrasting with and stabilising the ornate arcades that rise above it."

Please leave this exactly as it is. While I realise that your edit is simpler, let me stress that the subject of the section is the "facade", not the "base".

Simpler is not necessarily better.

Amandajm (talk) 00:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

• "At this time a choir of boys was established to sing the liturgy, which Wells Cathedral School considers to mark its foundation."

The precise meaning on this sentence is now that the Cathedral School considers that the the liturgy marks its foundation. Try again! [Reader, please NOTE: this rather impatient response post-dates the insulting stuff immediately below it beginning "Since when did you get to be my master?"]

I very much doubt that no matter how hard I try I could ever be as trying as you. George Ponderevo (talk) 00:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Since when did you get to be my master and tell me what I can or can't do Amandajm? I suggest that you get off my case and find something useful to do elsewhere; I think you need to reconsider your whole approach here, which is frankly completely counterproductive and unlikely to achieve the outcome you're hoping for. George Ponderevo (talk) 00:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

George Ponderevo,

What on earth is the matter with you? Can't you be told anything?

You have been given reasons why these two changes are not appropriate. I have taken the trouble to write them on your page, rather than simply deleting what you have done. Why does that mean I'm "on your case"? What have you got to be so precious about?

• I have accepted your change to "medieval", having given a reason why I would prefer it otherwise.
• I don't see any value in changing "which" to "that" except that most Americans prefer it that way. It doesn't follow an English rule. But since many prefer it that way, it's better, not worse.
• Thank you for the practical changes you have made to the formatting.
• Pleased don't continue to make changes that affect the meaning.
• Here is an example of a non-helpful edit: "The statues are of life size."

Your addition of the hyphen was fine. The removal of the "of" was not. It took the language from precise to journalistic.

An art/architecture writer can say either "The statues are of life-size" or The statues are life-sized", but not "The statues are life-size".

Amandajm (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think "dean" is a proper noun in that context, either :P --RexxS (talk) 00:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

It isn't, but who dare argue with the mighty Amandajm. George Ponderevo (talk) 00:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I can be told many things, and I will consider each of them on their merits. But I cannot be bullied. I will, or I will not, continue to make edits to Wells Cathedral as I choose, not you. Amandajm. George Ponderevo (talk) 00:50, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

And as for the distinction between "which" and "that", I suggest you invest in a good English grammar book. You might learn something. God knows, you've got plenty of gaps to fill. George Ponderevo (talk) 00:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

And let's be quite brutally frank. You came here with a rant that was frankly a lie; the architecture of Wells Cathedral, as the lead says is Gothic, not "Medieval". George Ponderevo (talk) 01:12, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

• Response

OK. I'll explain:

The Early Medieval period of architecture covers a very wide variety of styles that were all essentially local and include Carolingian architecture, Saxon architecture, Merovingian architecture and Byzantine architecture.

The Late Medieval period of architecture includes two styles that were pan-European: Romanesque architecture (which is called Norman architecture in some regions including Great Britain), and Gothic architecture.

In Northern France, in Germany and in Italy there is usually a very clear division between the Romanesque buildings and the Gothic buildings e.g. Notre Dame de Paris, Cologne Cathedral and Florence Cathedral are all most definitely Gothic while Saint-Etienne, Caen, Pisa Cathedral and Worms Cathedral are without question Romanesque.

In England, this clear division does not exist.

In England, the majority of the ancient cathedrals span a time period of about 400 years, and include Norman (Romanesque) and Gothic architecture.

For example:

1. If someone talks about Peterborough Cathedral as one of the finest Norman buildings in England, then the statement is made with the understanding that it also has a unique and superbly magnificent Gothic facade, and a remarkable eastern end that was not added until 300 years after the facade, being very late Gothic. This means that any book about English Gothic architecture would include descriptions of Peterborough Cathedral, of which the greater part was designed in 1117 and is most definitely Norman.

2.The buildings dates of Canterbury Cathedral range from 1070 to 1505 (with its north tower not finished until the 19th century). The Choir of Canterbury and the Choir of Wells were under construction at exactly the same time. One could describe Canterbury as a "Gothic Cathedral" but where does that leave the Norman crypt, the Norman chapels and the two small Norman towers?

3. Another case is Winchester Cathedral. When you enter the building you see one of the finest Gothic naves in Europe. But here is the problem. It is incredibly long! This is entirely dependent on the fact that most of the stone at which one is looking was in fact put in place by Norman builders in about 1080. But 300 years later William Wynford remodelled the whole blinking thing by carving Gothic fluting into the old piers, and fitting Gothic arches into the Norman ones. The form of what he created was in part dictated by what was already there. The extreme length, for example, is typically Norman, not Gothic. The distance between the piers etc, was set in stone, so to speak.

The extended time-frame over which almost all the ancient cathedrals and many of the abbeys were built means that in making comparisons between English cathedrals, it is better to use the term "Medieval" than either "Gothic" or "Norman".

• So when I indicate that the term Medieval architecture is preferable to Gothic architecture when summarising and comparing English cathedral, this is the reason.
• I would like you to withdraw the statement that You came here with a rant that was frankly a lie; the architecture of Wells Cathedral, as the lead says is Gothic, not "Medieval"
• I would also like you to withdraw this "But I cannot be bullied."

No-one has tried to bully you.

You have simply been requested not to make certain changes, to several aspects of the expression.

• I am cutting and pasting this discussion to the talk page of the article. I am sorry that I didn't post it there in the first place!

Amandajm (talk) 04:58, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

There's no need for you to explain, I know exactly where you're coming from, and it isn't a nice place unless you're a bully. So I suggest you leave me alone now, because I'm completely immune to bullies. George Ponderevo (talk) 05:00, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

So, George Ponderevo, having insulted me by name, in ten of your edit summaries to Wells Cathedral, and left the insult clearly visible in the history of that article, you accuse me of "bullying"?

You have quite a sense of humour! Amandajm (talk) 02:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

And thank you again for your practical improvements to formatting, spelling, removal of unnecessary caps etc. Amandajm (talk) 02:24, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

This is a misunderstanding

George, if it wasn't for the rude nature of your edit summary "(am I the only one one who can read here Amandajm?)" I would have to presume that this was a well-intentioned edit.

I am sorry to say this, but the sentences you have constructed here are so wrong that you clearly don't know the subject, and perhaps ought not be trying to rewrite something which Giano, (who knows a great deal about the subject of architecture) has passed as "ready to go" (apart from the little theoretical matter we are discussing above).

You have changed:

"The architecture of the cathedral presents a harmonious whole, being entirely Gothic and mostly in the Early English style of the late 12th and early 13th centuries. While the majority of English cathedrals were commenced in the Norman period, Wells Cathedral was the first that was begun as a Gothic design."

to:

"The cathedral's architecture presents a harmonious whole, entirely Gothic and mostly in the Early English style of the late 12th and early 13th centuries. It was the first English cathedral to be to designed in the Gothic style, as opposed to the Romanesque more common at the time. "

• It is fairly common knowledge, George, that the Romanesque style is called "Norman" in England.
• "designed in the Gothic style, as opposed to the Romanesque more common at the time." is sheer foolishness.

One of the points being made in the sentence (as it is originally structured) is about timeframe. All the other cathedrals (except Salisbury and Lichfield) were begun much earlier. It isn't about choosing a style for the building. Romanesque was not "more common at the time".

This was the first cathedral begun in the new era of Gothic rather than Norman (the usual term for English Romanesque.

• The word "being" entirely Gothic is not accidental. What that word implies is that the reason why the building is harmonious is the fact that it is entirely Gothic. If you read the blurb above, you will understand why this fact is remarkable.

While the article undoubtedly has typos and words remaining from other edits, most of the language has been fine-tuned to say precisely what it is intended to say. The sentences that are conveying the crucial information have, for the greater part, been worked over very carefully and are nuanced to mean exactly what they are meant to say.

Amandajm (talk) 05:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Cloisters

Please fix dubbydup!

Either "Theories to explain...." or "theories explaining...." .

At present it says "Theories to explaining......"

Amandajm (talk) 08:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Passing

Well, this was an interesting one. I think it is the most detailed GA review in which I've ever been involved. I think it's certainly at GA level now, and Giano is happy that it is solid from an architecture viewpoint, so I'll pass this. I think some of the above discussion, if there are issues remaining, are better held on the talk page with a view to aiming at FAC. None of the issues seem to affect GA status. I think I've realised there is rather a lot I don't know about architecture, and thanks to everyone for sorting those aspects out, Giano in particular. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes it's better not to know too much. Congratulations to all concerned. Please note I did not mention the infobox even once!!!  Giano  18:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks all.— Rod ^talk 19:04, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to all who have contributed, particularly Rodw for all you fantastic research and hard work, to Matinevans for all the perceptive tweaks, Sarastro1 for reviewing this and Giano for adding his inevitably nit-picking expertise! (Yes, I agree totally about info boxes and I kept right out of it as well!) Not to forget Johnbo, Mr Stephen for tidying up and George Ponderevo for meticulous contributions to formatting, spotting typos and inconsistencies, and changing all the whiches into whatnots.

What next? I've fixed the red link to Arnold of Nijmegen..... I think I'll put him up for DYK! Amandajm (talk) 02:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

What else is needed to get this article to FA?

What else do people think is needed before this article would be ready for a FA nomination?— Rod ^talk 20:48, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm terribly busy. Just dropped by to check my watch list. I will get back to you on this, as getting it through the FA process takes a bit of effort! Amandajm (talk) 23:27, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Dab & date for Pliny

In the library section is a link to Pliny for "Pliny's Natural History printed in 1472", however the dab page doesn't have any author which would fit that date - are we talking about a version of Natural History (Pliny) if so is it likely to have been "printed" or copied long hand by the monks?— Rod ^talk 18:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's only 22 years after Johannes Gutenberg first printed anything, in 1450. But Natural History (Pliny)#Printed_copies tells us "The work was one of the first classical manuscripts to be printed, having been so at Venice in 1469 by Johann and Wendelin of Speyer..." so it's possible it is indeed one of the earliest printed books. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:43, 11 July 2013 (UTC) ... and see page 175 here!

Thanks does give the impression it was "printed" (by Jenson at Venice) - shall I just link to Natural History (Pliny) otherwise leave alone? (the source you pointed to is Church, C.M. (1904). "Historical traditions at Wells, 1464, 1470, 1497" (PDF). The archaeological Journal. 61 (11). if anyone thinks we should include it as a citation).— Rod ^talk 19:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, Rod. Thanks for spelling that source out. I just did the links, but I guess maybe the Pliny the Elder link is optional. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

The Bishop

I've been trying to add references for the details in the infobox & find the Bishop Peter Price retired on 30 June. His successor will not be appointed for a while. How should we show this in the infobox & lead?— Rod ^talk 20:52, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if the recent edit history here might help? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

2nd century figure?

"John Bernard, died 145;" Looks 1300 years early to me. ϢereSpielChequers 23:14, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Well spotted - should be 1459.— Rod ^talk 07:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Reference Issues

I've now been through most of the references, formatting them to use the sfn template etc but have found a few issues..

• Refs 51 (magic stats) & 53 (Newsletter no 35) are deadlinks - can anyone replace?
• Ref 76 - just says O.E.D. - I assume this is the Oxford English Dictionary but more detail is needed - not sure this one is needed anyway - can I remove it?
• Ref 88 - does anyone have a copy of Smith, John Colin Dinsdale (1975). Picture Book of Misericords of Wells Cathedral. Friends of Wells Cathedral. ISBN 978-0902321151. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) to add page numbers?
• Ref 90 - does anyone have a copy of Remnant, G.L. (1969). A Catalogue of Misericords in Great Britain. Oxford at Clarendon Press. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) to add page number?
• Ref 107 Wells Cathedral Voluntary Choir - shows up as a problem on "checklinks" saying "Blacklisted URL exists in page" I think this is because the site wants to play you sound - but I'm not sure - any ideas whether there are other issues?

Any help appreciated.— Rod ^talk 18:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC) I've dealt with a couple of these. Page numbers still needed for Smith (Ref 90) & Remnant (Ref 92).— Rod ^talk 11:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

In trying to sort out & standardise the isbn formats in the bibliography I have a problem with:

• Lee, Sidney (2001). Dictionary of National Biography. Adamant Media Corporation. ISBN 1-4021-7064-5. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)

I can't trace it & the isbn is wrong.— Rod ^talk 12:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Smith has only two pages of writing, pp. 1,2. plus a brief descriptive title to each picture e.g. "Man with cup asking his wife for more". The indication that one misericord is in the V&A comes from the caption on page 22. Amandajm (talk) 05:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - so could you put p=22 within the sfn temaplate for the V&A claim but we have 6 other claims cited to that book - I think each needs the page no adding - even it is just the page no where the info is in a caption to a pic.— Rod ^talk 06:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Clock

Ey up! Done some work on astronomical clocks recently, and noticed there was no mention of Peter Lighfoot, the monk who supposedly constructed the dial in 1325:

• It is difficult to give any intelligible account of the elaborate functions discharged by this wonderful piece of mechanism with any brevity, and we must refer the anxious to the Canon Church's detailed account. It must here suffice to quote the few words concerning this clock to be found in A Concise History of Wells Cathedral, written more than a century ago, by John Davis, the verger:

In an old chapel of the northern transept is a curious old specimen of the art of clockmaking; it is a dial constructed by Peter Lightfoot, a monk of Glastonbury, about the year 1325, of complicated design an ingenious execution.

^{Cox, J Charles (2008). English Church Fittings, Furniture and Accessories. p. 183. ISBN 9781905217939.}

The passage goes on to say that similar clocks in Wimborne Minster and Exeter Cathedral have been attributed to Lightfoot. I think we should say something of Lightfoot either here or in the main clock article; plenty of other, older books cite him as creator of the clock. Here's just some:

• Savage, James (1820). Memorabilia, Or, Recollections: Historical, Biographical, and Antiquarian.
• g, E (1862). The tourist's guide to Wells, the cathedral, Cheddar cliffs, &c.
• Britton, John (1836). The History and Antiquities of the Cathedral Church of Wells: Illustrated by a Series of Engravings, of Views, Elevations, Plans, and Details of the Architecture of that Edifice, Including Biographical Anecdotes of the Bishops of the See of Bath and Wells.

--Hillbillyholiday ^talk 14:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

(Exeter Cathedral Astronomical Clock seems currently to have no attribution, either at its own article, or at the main Cathedral article.) Martinevans123 (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, fix it, Dear Henry! Amandajm (talk) 03:08, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll let Henry know, or even Henrietta. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Whoever-you-are-without-a-name

Plleeeaaase leave this article alone until you know that "Flowing Decorated" takes two capital letters, and so does "Early Christian".

I fixed 16 errors introduced by some well-meaning person who decided to "tidy-up" the expression.

I tried to maintain the useful tweaks to grammar and brevity, but ultimately gave up, and reverted the lot, when I discovered how many of the tweaks had resulted in inaccuracies. If I can be bothered I'll return a few of the better edits, but I really wish people who are not familiar with the subject would desist from making changes to what they don't understand.

Amandajm (talk) 16:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction

In one paragraph it saying: "The scissor-arches are known as the "St Andrew's Cross arches" as a reference to the patronal saint of the cathedral and are "brutally massive" and intrusive in an otherwise restrained interior.[9]", yet the caption alongside describes the same arches as "The strainer arches divide the internal spaces in a dynamic way." Which is it? I prefer the latter. Additionally, It probably ought to be patron saint rather than patronal.  Giano  22:43, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I read the "brutally massive" as a direct quote from Swaan's book (which I don't have) and the picture caption "dynamic" as a different opinion. They are also called "scissor arches" in the text and "strainer arches" in the picture caption. I am hoping that User:Amandajm will be able to comment on this one.— Rod ^talk 08:20, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

"Brutally massive" and intrusive? Definitely! A dynamic division of the space? That, too.

One could hardly say that "brutal" (in the architectural sense) and "dynamic" were mutually exclusive.

Both are true. Neither has to go. They are different ways of describing the effect of the arches, which is, ultimately, to chop the interior into parts.

When seen from the nave, the arches really are very brutal and intrusive. When the overall effect of the arches upon the entire interior is taken into account, then they "divide the internal space in a dynamic way".

Giano, I don't know why you have a problem with it. You know perfectly well that there is more than one description for any object. Amandajm (talk) 09:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Amandajm (talk) 09:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Please don't tell me what I may or may not know. What I do know is that in architectural language 'dynamic' is rather exiting and full of movement, and Brutal is harsh, stationary, solid and in your face. So I don't see how both terms can be used for the same object on the same page. It's all very well quoting all these experts authoritatively, but it would help if you chose experts sharing from the same school of though or at least explain that Jones thinks A, but Smith thinks B.  Giano  11:52, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Apologies for the my presumption! (You are the second sensitive editor to whom I have been obliged to apologise within the day!)

Shall I presume then that you do not know that an object may be...... No! Obviously that is the wrong assumption as well........

This heads up our article on Brutalist architecture- not exactly "stationary"!

Is "brutal" essentially stationary? Those arches are, without doubt, harsh and in-your-face, (to use your words). The detailing is crude, compared with the refinement of other parts of the building. Those two owl's eyes looked as if they have been excavated by a Titan with a cordless-drill the size of a tractor.

I don't think we can argue "dynamic", since there is a certain overwhelming sort of flow about those arches and their brutal mouldings (No, cut brutal!)

"Brutal" and "dynamic"? Mutually incompatible, or....what?

There is only a problem here, because you, Giano, find the two terms mutually exclusive. I do not consider that they are. In fact, I consider that to state that one writer finds the the arches "brutal" while the other finds them "dynamic" would be to labour the point as if the two terms were in fact, mutually exclusive.

It all hangs in your use of the word "stationary" when describing "brutal".

Amandajm (talk) 04:42, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Whatever you like Amanda.  Giano  09:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Giano! I just needed someone to be so kind and reasonable! Amandajm (talk) 09:51, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• Amanda, I was surrendering - not agreeing with you.  Giano  19:28, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry, Giano! I was reading some good grace into your reply. Perhaps that was taking it too far.

What I should have said was something like: "Ya! He backed down! That makes six to Giano and one to me! Yah!" Amandajm (talk) 23:13, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

.....returns feeling small and chastened..... I suppose you are going to say now that you didn't like the baklava, either.... Amandajm (talk)

• Scissors arches/strainer arches: Scissors describes the shape, strainers is what they do. In describing them as having been inserted for a purpose, then "strainer arches" would be preferred. In describing their appearance to the laity, then "scissor arches" would be preferred.
• With regards to the best display of Medieval sculpture in Britain, yes it is quite some statement, but true beyond doubt, but I have adjusted it, anyway, to "one of". There is only one other contender: Exeter Cathedral is careful to claim only that it has the best display of "14th-century" sculpture in Britain. The facade there is about 100 years later than that of Wells. (Only a handful of figures at Salisbury are medieval.) Wells has retained more figures than Exeter.

• As for the statement that the synthesis of architecture and sculpture is "unsurpassed".... Well, that is not to say it is the "finest", merely that there is nothing better. The sculptured screen at Exeter is finely detailed, but the whole facade looks like a piecemeal construction. The situation here is a bit comparable to asking "What is Christopher Wren's greatest church?" or "What is the greatest rock band to come out of Liverpool?" The facade of Well's cathedral might not be quite as well known to the public, but the question of its standing in terms of the Medieval architecture of Britain is without question. It's not as if we are looking at a vast number of sculptural facades.

Amandajm (talk) 10:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

What else is needed to move this article towards a FA nomination

This article is looking good and has been stable again for a while. I am going to put it up for peer review to see if a new pairs of eyes comes up with anything useful, but can any of the regular editors identify anything which is needed to get this article to meet the Featured article criteria?— Rod ^talk 14:18, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The paragraph on the North Porch includes a link to Saint Edmund which is a dab page. I presume this should be Edmund the Martyr but there are several other martyrs so can anyone confirm?— Rod ^talk 16:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Almost certainly. Does he have a crown? The only other Pre-Reformation possiblility is Edward Rich, not a martyr & only canonized after 1243, who would wear a mitre. Johnbod (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

In the section Plan and dates there is a table that lists the architectural styles. I know that many have probably been wikilinked in the preceding text, but would it be useful to reiterate them here? --Derek Andrews (talk) 15:46, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm taking a look at doing this but have a couple of queries:

• The first (choir) is described as "Early English Gothic" while the next three (Transept..., West front & Undercroft of chapter house) are described as "Early English". Is there meant to be a difference as the best link I can find for both is English Gothic architecture#Early English Gothic?— Rod ^talk 10:32, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
• The Chapter House is described as "Geometric Decorated Gothic", Lady Chapel = "Reticulated Gothic" and Central tower & "St Andrew's Arches" under the tower = "Decorated Gothic", Reconstruction of choir, retrochoir = Flowing Decorated/Reticulated Gothic. I could make a link to English Gothic architecture#Decorated Gothic, but I can't find anything specific for "Reticulated Gothic"
• The south west tower =Perpendicular Gothic - would everyone be happy with a link to English Gothic architecture#Perpendicular Gothic
• The next four are "Perpendicular" I presume this could also link to English Gothic architecture#Perpendicular Gothic
• The Choir and pulpitum altered = "Gothic Revival" I presume this can go to Gothic Revival architecture.
• I am (vaguely) aware of a guideline to only wikilink the first occurrence in a list, but if different terms are used which will be linked to the same article (or sub section of it) would it be better to link each occurrence?
• I also note that the North Porch (No 10 on plan) and Cloister (No 12) are not included in the list of dates & architectural styles.— Rod ^talk 10:32, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Lead section

Just a couple of minor points of annoyance (to me) on reading the lede, which I will leave for FA editors to decide what if anything should be changed.

1- "Unlike the majority of the current structures of the English cathedrals which were started in the Norman period, Wells Cathedral was the first begun as a Gothic design." A lot of words here, that don't really say very much and leave me wondering exactly what is implied, especially "the majority of the current structures" which seems rather vague and weasely. Is it implying that there were earlier ones started as Gothic, but which no longer exist? Also, 'Norman period' linking to Romanesque architecture is not exactly clear either.

2- "Wells" is used to refer to both the cathedral itself (which I find rather pompous) and other parts of the city, or at least the Liberty (ie Bishop's Palace and Vicars Close). I think that wherever we mean the cathedral, we should say so, for example "the choir at wells" would become "the choir at Wells cathedral".--Derek Andrews (talk) 11:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

1. There is nothing "weasely" in any of this. Many of the cathedrals were founded earlier than the Norman period, but it is not apparent in their structure. Winchester, for example, has the foundations of the Saxon church in the lawn to the south. Only a very small number have Saxon remains within the present building. Most of the cathedral buildings date from the Norman period ( as against their ecclesiastic or monastic date of foundation which might be 200-400 years earlier.) Norman architecture is the term usually used for Romanesque architecture of Normandy and Britain. Wells is unusual for not being in part Norman. It was begun at a later date than the majority, just before Lichfield and about 40 years earlier than Salisbury. Wells and Salisbury and Lichfield are each quite unified in their designs while the other 24 ancient cathedral buildings all have bits and pieces of different dates, generally stretching over about 400-500 years, and with no attempt to make anything match.
2. When it has been established that the subject of discussion is the cathedral, and that comparisons are being made to different cathedrals, then it is the normal parlance to simply refer to the place name, rather than keep repeating the word, "cathedral". In this case, it is clear from the sense that what is being referred to is the Cathedral. In the case of the Bishop's palace, it is the Bishop's Palace at Wells Cathedral that is meant, not a palace outside the cathedral precinct and within the town. Banister Fletcher makes a distinction only when he is also referring to buildings that are not cathedrals, e.g. "the fan vaulting at Gloucester Cathedral and at Bath Abbey". The choirs are referred to in the same way. If someone said "The choirs of Bristol and Wells are giving a recital", then it would generally be understood that it was the cathedral choirs that were being referred to, provided it was in the context of church music.

Amandajm (talk) 13:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

In the light of your latter comment, I have just checked it out, and made one change (from Wells clock to Wells Cathedral clock as per the article). In fact, at the beginning of every major section, where relevant the term "Wells Cathedral" is used in an introductory sentence. This makes it perfectly clear what is being referred to. And the convention follows, as I have pointed out. Amandajm (talk) 13:37, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

'Norman period' seems ambiguous and poorly defined. Are we talking politically or architecturally? In looking at Norman_architecture I read "Norman masons introduced the new Gothic architecture. Around 1191 Wells Cathedral and Lincoln Cathedral brought in the English Gothic style". Could we not just say something clear like that? Maybe "It was the first English cathedral to be designed from the start in Gothic style". Or (if this is true) "Although other English cathedrals began adopting the Gothic style during construction, Wells was the first English cathedral to be designed from the outset in Gothic style". I do wonder though if we need all three of these sentences to spell out the nuances of this point? --Derek Andrews (talk) 15:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Some rewording may be helpful, but the distinction between earlier vanished buildings and what can still be seen is important and worth keeping. There was at least one previous church building so terms like "start" and "outset" are potentially misleading. Johnbod (talk) 15:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

This has been changed. Are we still not happy with it? The "Norman period" when referring to architecture means "Romanesque". The interesting thing here is that we have two contemporary buildings, the choir of Canterbury, and the choir of Wells. William of Sens is known to be the architect at Canterbury. The link with Sens Cathedral is clear, and one would say, in that case, that the Gothic style was introduced by "the Normans". Wells Cathedral has nothing to do with this. It is impossible to look at Wells Cathedral and deduce that the building style came from France. It is nothing like anything, except that it has pointed arches. It was plainly built by someone who had seen something Gothic and has created their own free interpretation of it. In terms of innovative design, Wells Cathedral is light years ahead of the choir of Canterbury. I am beginning to rave..... Amandajm (talk) 00:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I think you have done a wonderful job Amanda and it has resolved the problem I had with it. Thank you. The only thing I see in the lead that I haven't fixed myself: should we link Gothic? --Derek Andrews (talk) 12:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Should the lead include mention of the dedication to St Andrew? --Derek Andrews (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Page numbers still needed

We have a couple of references which still don't have any page numbers (which I suspect might be an issue if this article does finally get to FA nomination):

• Ref 100 - Smith, John Colin Dinsdale (1975). Picture Book of Misericords of Wells Cathedral. Friends of Wells Cathedral. ISBN 978-0902321151.
• Ref 102 - Remnant, G.L.; M.D. Anderson (1969). A Catalogue of Misericords in Great Britain. Clarendon Press.

Does anyone have access to these to add page numbers?— Rod ^talk 11:18, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that Smith's booklet doesn't have numbered pages. I'm not sure where I've mislaid it to! I believe all the written info is in the front, and then there is a picture gallery.

I don't know about the other source. Maybe it's online. Maybe it was quoted second-hand from a very nice website that didn't give the pages. Amandajm (talk) 12:21, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Smith: pp. 1-2 and 25. I am not sure how to add this because of the way the refs are now formatted. Amandajm (talk) 12:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I've now found a "read inside" copy of Remnants book which lists 64 at Wells (pages 142-144) but I can't see the support for the claim "The misericords at Wells date from 1330 to 1340" as used in this article.— Rod ^talk 13:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

It's in Smith. Ordered 1325. Problems with payment stalled the production. They wanted them in by 1339 for the opening of the choir which had been refurbished. The boy with the thorn in his foot dates from 1664. Amandajm (talk) 13:31, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Reference or note

The current No 81 in the reference list says "Banister Fletcher lists the features and says, "The highest development in English Gothic of this type of facade" This appears to be more of a note than a reference. Should this be moved to a note (it would be the only one) or incorporated into the text? Can anyone provide the proper reference for "Banister Fletcher " as I can't see it in either the rest of the reference list or bibliography.— Rod ^talk 11:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

We have an ongoing Banister Fletcher problem. I use the 17th edition, which I bought secondhand 45 years ago. Nothing in the section on Medieval England has changed, as far as I'm aware, but other sections have been expanded considerably. Well meaning editors correct my reference by inserting the latest edition, and then all the pages are stuffed up so that you couldn't find the reference if you wanted to. Amandajm (talk) 12:28, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The note supports the caption "unsurpassed in Britain". I'll find the page number.

Amandajm (talk) 12:32, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. Amandajm (talk) 12:47, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I moved Sir Banister into the body of the article and put in four supporting refs for the caption. Amandajm (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks but I think we need to add Banister Fletcher to the bibliography.— Rod ^talk 13:24, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. I find formatting stuff like that so stressful that I need a brandy and a lie down! I'll just go back to stuffing around with the Tree of Jesse article, unless you need me further. Amandajm (talk) 13:45, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I've tweaked the Fletcher ref & think this one is resolved. When you've had your well deserved lie down (& brandy) could you take a look at the questions about linking architectural styles etc in the "What else is needed to move this article towards a FA nomination" section above?— Rod ^talk 13:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I've linked "Gothic" in the first instance. I've linked Romanesque. Anything else can link to the article English Gothic architecture which has sections on the major divisions of style. It's 1.30 in the Land of Oz. Tomorrow I have to take a tour of an historic cemetery so I'm turning in. Thanks for everything!

Precinct

I have made a few changes to this section and hope i am not stepping on anyone's toes here. I don't think it is true to say that the cathedral is in a walled precinct. Some is walled and some is not; some is just buildings; some walls has been removed, but I don't think it ever completely surrounded the cathedral. I must admit that I always assumed that the 'walled' area was synonymous with the Liberty of St Andrews, but maps on Somerset Historic Environment Record suggest that the liberty was larger, taking in the rec ground in the SW (and not surprisingly the tithe barn), and in the NE much of the cathedral school grounds as far as North road and up St Thomas Street. So I have removed my earlier mention of the liberty and retitled this section 'Surrounding buildings', which I think is what the section is really about anyway. happy to discuss further if need be.

On a lighter note, I just came across an interesting historical note [2] (p144→) about the drunken and riotous behaviour of people associated with the cathedral. Enjoy. --Derek Andrews (talk) 22:18, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I presume the barn being referred to is The Bishop's Barn, Wells, but I'm not sure whether it should be included somewhere in the history section of this article.— Rod ^talk 12:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes that's the barn Rod. I don't see any need to mention it in this article as it is some distance from the cathedral.--Derek Andrews (talk) 12:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Page protection

The content dispute seems to be resolved as far as I can tell per what appears to me to be a strong consensus on the article's talk page (and in discussion elsewhere including the edit war noticeboard page). Perhaps one of the kind admins here can remove the page protection so editors can resume work on the article? As it's being worked up for FA it seems there is a timing issue and some frustrations have been expressed regarding the protection issue. I think leaving a page protected for an extended time over this type of dispute can in fact be a kind of disruption and in this case there doesn't seem to me to be much of a remaining dispute? Numerous editors have weighed in. I wouldn't think more would be needed but I suppose an RFC could be conducted it the outcome isn't abundantly clear already? Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:36, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Candle, what was the strong consensus arrived at, and where on this page can I find it? --71.163.153.146 (talk) 02:15, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

In the Restrictive which section. It looks like a consensus to me. If someone really thinks the issue is unresolved then I suppose they need to start an RfC, but I think the consensus is quite clear. Candleabracadabra (talk) 04:05, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

You have a creative imagination. There is no consensus here. There is also no deadline. --71.163.153.146 (talk) 04:31, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Trying to get consensus for an edit to this protected page re citation placement

I note this page has been protected. I am trying to follow the procedure at Wikipedia:Edit requests as I believe there is an error with citation placement, which (hopefully) shouldn't be too controversial.

In the Misericords section (1st line of the 2nd para) Remnant 1969 (Ref 103) is used to support the claim "The misericords at Wells date from 1330 to 1340." Having looked at the book (page 142-144) it doesn't give dates but does support the claim in the 4th sentence of that para about the number. I am assured that Smith 1975 (Ref 101) does support the claim about the dates of the misericords.

Therefore I request that Ref 103 is moved to the 4th sentence and that Ref 101 is reused to support the dates.— Rod ^talk 11:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't have either reference, but your suggested edit seems reasonable to me.--Derek Andrews (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I've now done this.— Rod ^talk 16:55, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

That paragraph again

User:Eric Corbett

Eric dear, turning three statements back to front isn't a "minor" edit, when they are in the first paragraph and have been literally sweated over. (OK, it's Australia, and it's humid, I have to admit) But inserting a semi-colon, with or without a hyphen, is the last straw!. That semi-colon, right in the middle of the third paragraph has upset me far more than any misplaced this or that..... (or was it which or what... I can never remember the difference!) Now I need a brandy, lime and soda, to get over it! (Incidentally, most of those thats and whiches were my doing. And I really have very little conscience about it.) Amandajm (talk) 13:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Whether a particular edit is minor or not is clearly a matter of opinion, not fact, and equally our opinions are not altogether aligned on this point. But I look at it this way; at least I gave you an excuse to have a drink. Eric Corbett 13:20, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

The bottle was empty...... However, playing a couple of rounds of minesweeper is very soothing! Amandajm (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

(The above interaction intended, on my part, to be humorous and take the edge off the fact that I had reverted a number of well-intentiond changes. I hope this is clear.) Amandajm (talk) 01:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Eric Corbett , what exactly is ridiculous?

Your present edit "appearing much as it does today" is a vast improvement over your last effort which was "and it appeared much as it does today".

Please don't refer to my edits as "ridiculous" unless you really are sure that what you have written is an improvement.

Unfortunately, a number of your recent edits (particularly the one that you regarded as "minor" but which changed Wells from a secular to a monastic foundation) have been inaccurate or misleading.

I am finding it hard to comprehend why you are quite so insistent on maintaing some of the changes that you have made, when the author is of the opinion that the original wordings express the facts more accurately.

Let me say again that semicolons have a role, both in longwinded legalise where many clauses need separating, and in short snappy sentences in which the writer is balancing a couple of facts. I like coffee; she likes tea They need to be used for effect.

They generally do not work effectively for stringing complete sentences together. Whenever Wikipedia writers do it, it is almost always badly done.

The bishop was buried near the choir; the grave has no inscription is bad because the two short sentences have no linking idea. The subjects are different and not of a similar type. The location has no bearing on lack of inscription

The bishop's grave is in the choir; it has no inscription. is better although it could be better expressed.

The bishop was detested; even the stonemason refused to engrave his name. In this combination of two sentences the semicolon is being used to make a real point in which the second reflects significantly on the first.

Amandajm (talk) 01:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

the majority

The architecture of the cathedral presents a harmonious whole, being entirely Gothic and mostly in a single style, the Early English Gothic of the late 12th and early 13th centuries. In this Wells differs from the majority of English medieval cathedrals, which have parts in the earlier Romanesque architectural style introduced to Britain by the Normans in the 11th century.

User:Eric Corbett , you have changed this a number of times.

Your first change reordered the sentences so that the main point was lost.

And now you are arguing over my use of the words "the majority" , when you would prefer it to be expressed as "most".

You have been offered this explanation as an edit summary: "That has been carefully worded to mean EXACTLY what is meant. It is different in this manner from 24 of the cathedrals and similar to two others."

and reverted with: "not carefully enough worded", (following immediately by an edit summary telling me about another matter "that's simply ridiculous".)

Well, I've had lunch and considered why it is that writing "differs from the majority of English medieval cathedrals" says more to me than the simplified "differs from most English medieval cathedrals".

I have to ask myself whether i am simply being bloody minded.

• I take into account that User:Derek Andrews had queries about the facts presented in this section, and that this had prompted me to make changes to the paragraph, explaining the mode and significance of Well's difference to the majority of other English medieval cathedrals. The point that I am making here is that I am not averse to change.

Then why am I being apparently so stubborn as to insist that my wording Wells differs from the majority of' English medieval cathedrals, is to be preferred?

• The reason is this: most can mean almost anything. It is a simple, commonplace word that could imply "all the rest".
• The use of the term "the majority" carries the inherent implication that there is a "minority".

This is the case. Apart from Wells, there is Salisbury Cathedral. (Until recently it was believed that no part of the Norman building still existed at Lichfield, but I have just read that remains have been found within the existent fabric) So that brings us to a minority of two. Wells Cathedral, and the enormously significant Salisbury Cathedral.

• We either could go with "the majority of...." or write Salisbury into the equation.

But there is reason for not doing this. A number of the so-called "parish church cathedrals" are ancient, but entirely Gothic. This is a bit of a minefield. I don't want to be writing lengthy footnotes to explain why buildings are included or excluded.

So, unless you can come up with a really good reason for insisting that the words "the majority of" be dropped in favour of "most", I shall make the change accordingly.

I await your reply. Amandajm (talk) 03:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

The majority of is simply a prolix alternative to most, it carries no additional meaning. But it is of course your choice whether you want this article's prose to be improved now, or wait until it's criticised at FAC. No skin off my nose either way. Eric Corbett 12:50, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

If what is meant is "all other English medieval cathedrals except Salisbury", why not just say so? A couple of words longer, but precise and informative. PamD 19:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

All other is a very cry from most or even the excessively wordy the majority of. Eric Corbett 19:29, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

"All other" means "everything other than." - "The majority of" means "most, but not all." Now here's the interesting thing: "most" just means most - isn't that clever? One single little four-letter word sums up all we want to say. As a general rule of thumb, "when in doubt leave it out" and that applies to excess words as well as sex. Verbosity is not a virtue. It's a pity that it takes a non-native speaker with not one jot of understanding of your grammar to tell you. Amanda, you should know better, and Eric (on this occasion , you do know best) why don't you just carry on and then all of you together can get this rather nice page to FA.  Giano  20:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Not sure that would ever be possible Giano. If this article was presented at FAC in its current state I'd rip the arse out of it. Eric Corbett 20:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

• In response to PamD, thanks, I'd considered that. But that's too simple to work, I'm afraid. There are a number of cathedrals which have been made cathedrals more recently, but have previously been large parish churches or collegiate churches. A number of them are of Gothic foundation. They are generally lumped together as "the parish church cathedrals". It leads to this minefield of what constitutes a "medieval cathedral".

• User:Eric Corbett, I have given good reason for my preference. The reason for your preference seems to be that mine is "excessively wordy".

Don't tell us that "the majority" doesn't carry the implication of "a minority", because it does, and that is exactly the implication that is required, to cover not only Salisbury, and those smaller ancient "parish church cathedrals" which other readers may wish to bring in.

Eric, what you are doing, in threatening to "rip the arse out of it" is known as "bullying".

• User:Giano, why don't you reread what you have written above? Have you got any idea how self-opininiated and patronising your choice of words makes you appear?

"Isn't that clever?....applies to excess words as well as sex.... pity it takes a non-native speaker.... Amanda, you should know...... "

Are you seriously criticising my mode of expression, while simultaneously expressing yourself in that manner?

Have you considered the use of simple statements such as "I agree with Eric"? It would certainly say more than all the high-falutin' twaddle.

But then It's a pity that it takes a non-native speaker with not one jot of understanding of your grammar to tell you. Amanda, you should know..... is very much part of your talk-page style.

And I still fail to understand why you Eric, (and now you Giano, though it should hardly surprise me) are wasting so much effort over my grammatically correct mode of expression. (Giano, FYI, this isn't a matter of grammar.)

I prefer "the majority of", and have given adequate reason. Eric, since it is a matter of brevity and not a matter of grammar, why are you a) so determined to get your own way? b) making threats over it?

One of the problems that we have here, Eric, is that you are accustomed to editing the writing of people who are a great less competent than I am. People in general see your edits as improvements, and no doubt they usually are. You are no doubt used to your changes being accepted. This is a different case. While I appreciate your corrections to my many typos, repeated words, "then" instead of "the" and all that, I know myself to be more than usually competent at English expression. When I write "the majority of", reconsider it (at your prompting) and decide that it is my preferred expression (in this case), then, as a matter of judgement, my opinion is in every way as valid as yours.

I cannot help wondering if the person to whom you, Eric and Giano, are talking was named Bill Paterson, rather than Amanda, would you be quite so bullying on one hand and quite so insulting on the other?

Giano, Eric, it really makes no difference to me whether this article gets an FA or not. Turning this into a really fine and readable article that expresses both the beauty and the enormous architectural significance of Wells Cathedral is important to me, and, with User:Rodw, and help from others, this has been achieved.

Personally, I really do not give a fig whether you two decide to "rip the arse out of it" at FA or not. I can't be bullied over a process that I really do not care about.

However, I am not in this alone, and User:Rodw would obviously like to see it at FA.

If Eric's insistence on "most" rather than "the majority of" is the make-or-break issue (Can anyone comprehend the pettiness of this?), then I feel that I must compromise over this matter of expression, acknowledging, as I do it, the inappropriateness of the process, and the nature of the bullying that has taken place.

I was considering writing an architectural history for Canterbury Cathedral next. The article lacks one. Now there's a challenge!

Why don't you, User:Eric Corbett, with your grasp of brevity and clarity, and you User:Giano, with your exquisite understanding of the expressive qualities of language, take it on instead?

And in the process, the pair of you can bring up arses and sex on the talk page to anyone who gets in your way, as you have here.

Amandajm (talk) 00:47, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

"One of the problems that we have here, Eric, is that you are accustomed to editing the writing of people who are a great less competent than I am." On the contrary Amandajm, you are one of the least competent editors I've ever come across. Eric Corbett 01:30, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

You can only make yourself look foolish with a comment such as that. I have no difficulty acknowledging my extremely poor typing skills and truly appreciate the efforts of those who correct them. Amandajm (talk) 01:47, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Restrictive which

The restrictive which is absolutely fine in British English and should not be changed to that for its own sake. If you are unsure about this, please consult an authority. Inglok (talk) 14:57, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Rubbish. Eric Corbett 15:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit. Please state clearly your reason for reversion. If you are having difficulty understanding which words may introduce relative clauses in British English, please see this page on the Oxford Dictionaries website, which states that "restrictive relative clauses can be introduced by that, which, whose, who, or whom." Inglok (talk) 15:18, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

My only difficulty is with your ignorance. Eric Corbett 17:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Hm! The OED clearly supports Eric on this one. After all, its a very restrictive staircase. Amandajm (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I reread this, looked at the OED again, and Inglok (talk) is correct. Amandajm (talk) 02:48, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

No, the OED does not support Eric. Could you provide a reference, please? See, for example, the entry for which, sense 9b: "Introducing a defining or restrictive clause". The false distinction between which and that is a pseudo-rule. It is followed in the United States, and has become standard usage for many, but not here. Eric Corbett's changing of one to the other looks like an attempt to impose American usage (and disputed, too) on a British English article.

This is Geoffrey Pullum, an eminent linguist:

he's one of those people who believe the old nonsense about which being disallowed in what The Cambridge Grammar calls integrated relative clauses (the old-fashioned term is "restrictive" or "defining" relative clauses). Strunk and White perpetuate that myth. I've discussed it elsewhere. The notion that phrases like any book which you would want to read are ungrammatical is so utterly in conflict with the facts that you can refute it by looking in... well, any book which you would want to read.

— Geoffrey Pullum, Language Log

And again:

Using which in an integrated relative clause is not [an error], and nobody who has carefully studied the English language would think that it was.

— Geoffrey Pullum, Language Log

And, Eric, if your abusive behaviour continues I will refer you to the administators' noticeboard. Remember that you were blocked last time for your abusive behaviour. Please see Wikipedia:Civility. Inglok (talk) 21:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Please feel free to do so sooner rather than later, but watch out for that boomerang. Eric Corbett 22:01, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Apart from being wrong, you have failed to present any case for your change whatsoever. We must therefore assume that there is none. Please see WP:TPNO. Inglok (talk) 23:28, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm really not sure what you're trying to achieve here, unless you're doing this to win a bet. Even the source you linked to says "In many cases, in British English, both words are equally correct". But we're not writing for a purely British audience, so it would be as well to remember that. Or in your case think about it for the first time. Eric Corbett 00:25, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

You have quite obviously broken WP:CIVIL. You have been rude and uncivil, and that most recent snide comment has not been the first. You will see on your talk page that I have referred you to the administrators' noticeboard.

It is exactly that "both words are equally correct" that they need not be changed. Please actually read what I have written and the links. It is not a 'rule' and it does not need to be 'corrected', particularly on a British English article. To take your argument to its logical conclusion, we should change all the instances of the restrictive which to a that. But why do you insist on following an American pseudo-rule? Inglok (talk) 00:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

And you are quite obviously an idiot. Eric Corbett 01:35, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok, focussing back on the that/which debate, Inglok we've all been using "that" in situations such as these. It is nice to actually have a distinction between the two words. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I strongly support Inglok on the general principle. It is a Wikipedia style principle that articles are usually written in the form of English most closely associated with the subject. Obviously an article on Wells Cathedral should be written in the more usual British grammar, terminology and punctuation etc. On this basis I believe "which" is more appropriate in British English articles in those instances where either "which" or "that" are acceptable. Anglicanus (talk) 05:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Then you are clearly just as ignorant as Inglok. Eric Corbett 05:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary. If anyone is being "ignorant" on this subject then it's yourself. But I would rather be ignorant than a patronising git. Anglicanus (talk) 05:54, 21 November 2013 (UTC)rshio

But you are clearly both, so how do you reconcile that? Eric Corbett 05:57, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for proving the truth of my comments about you. It is one thing to be simply ignorant but another, as in your case, to suffer from invincible ignorance. Anglicanus (talk) 06:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

You claim to be a priest. God help your parishioners. Eric Corbett 06:38, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't "claim" to be a priest as I actually am one. I only claim to be a ratbag. But thank you for praying for my parishioners. I'm sure they will receive spiritual benefit from your gracious piety. Anglicanus (talk) 07:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

British English doesn't care whether "which" or "that" is used, American English does. There is no issue here, Eric correctly chose the version that satisfies both camps. --Epipelagic (talk) 06:52, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

You are missing the point. It is irrelevant whether American English "cares" about "which" or "that" being used in this article so there is nothing "correct" about Eric's preference for "that". Anglicanus (talk) 07:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying the use of "that" here is incorrect in British English, or are you merely saying that "which" is an alternative? --Epipelagic (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I presume the lack of response here indicates acceptance that the use of "that" was not incorrect in British English. This thread must be a contender for Wikipedia's lamest article talk page thread. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• Am I the only person who finds this whole thread, not just pathetic, but also rather tragic? Here we have one of the project's best editors (Eric) working very hard and quietly improving a page - raising it to FA standard. Then along comes an editor, hitherto unconnected with the page, who then starts to edit war and argue some puerile point of grammar to the extent that the page is then locked down. Really, some Admin needs to take Inglok to one side and explain to him some common manners and a code of good behavior and the potential dire results of his failure to adhere to that code.  Giano  10:11, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• No, but for other reasons. What I find sad is that so much time and energy is being wasted, and bad-feeling is being generated, over such a trifling matter that/which very few readers would ever notice, let alone care about. --Derek Andrews (talk) 12:01, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

The page has been protected for a week. Now no one can move it forward. Well done the pair of you.--Derek Andrews (talk) 12:10, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter how long it's protected for. If Inglok and his faux priest mate Anglicanus don't butt out this article will never be ready for FAC. Eric Corbett 14:47, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

The distinction between that and which was invented by prespcriptive grammarians and is slavishly followed by those seeking to write what they think is 'correct' English. It has no solid basis in the canon of English literature nor in everyday English usage. I will repeat what I have written for everyone's benefit: please see this page on the Oxford Dictionaries website, which states that "restrictive relative clauses can be introduced by that, which, whose, who, or whom." Also see, for example, the entry for which, sense 9b: "Introducing a defining or restrictive clause".

If you were to follow the link I posted earlier you would find this:

As a check on just how common it is in excellent writing, I searched electronic copies of a few classic novels to find the line on which they first use which to introduce an integrated relative with which, to tell us how much of the book you would need to read before you ran into an instance:

• A Christmas Carol (Dickens): 1,921 lines, first occurrence on line 217 = 11% of the way through;
• Alice in Wonderland (Carroll): 1,618 lines, line 143 = 8%;
• Dracula (Stoker): 9,824 lines, line 8 = less than 1%;
• Lord Jim (Conrad): 8,045 lines, line 15 = 1%;
• Moby Dick (Melville): 10,263 lines, line 103 = 1%;
• Wuthering Heights (Bronte): 7,599 lines, line 56 = 0.736%...

Do I need to go on? No. The point is clear. On average, by the time you've read about 3% of a book by an author who knows how to write you will already have encountered an integrated relative clause beginning with which. They are fully grammatical for everyone. The copy editors are enforcing a rule which has no support at all in the literature that defines what counts as good use of the English language. Their which hunts are pointless time-wasting nonsense.

There is a lot more at the Language Log, a blog written by linguists.

Avoiding the restrictive which is mostly an American pursuit. For those arguing that a restrictive that satisfies both American and British English, your argument is flawed. It is like arguing that because organize is standard American and British English (albeit Oxford) that changing organise to organize is justified because "we're writing for an American audience too". It is wrong to change an article written in British English to suit disputed American English usage.

If there is a good reason to change which to that then it is yet to be said on this talk page. Inglok (talk) 09:08, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia relies on a collaborative environment and it is obvious that you and Eric should not edit the same page during the same period. Is which/that so important that the battle must be continued? Until death? There are lots of other pages needing work, so why not drop this? I'm sure you are aware that what is considered correct usage varies according to place and time, and all that can really be said about a language rule is that it applies for some purposes, and there can be no proof that one word is better than another word. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Image

User:Viriditas, User:Anythingyouwant,

• the original image is not ideal, but shows the length of the building
• the bleached image was very poor.
• There are two problems with the present crop.

1. You have cropped out the Lay Chapel to the east of the building (left side of pic) That is also part of the cathedral

2. The crop is so shallow that the actual height of the lower part of the building (which was by implication behind the trees) is not longer there. The building would not fit into the space that you have left for it.

in terms of the building itself, the uncropped picture shows more of it in actuality, and gives more of a sense of its size. Moreover, the view of the building above trees etc, is the way it is most often seen from a distance.

Amandajm (talk) 05:59, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the bleached image was very poor. Here are the other two images:

current image

old image

Any image will have its advantages and disadvantages. For example, any image of one side of a building will omit what's on the other side. On balance, the new (present image) is better, though I am slightly biased as the one who made it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you realise that the low building you have cut out to the left is part of the cathedral?

And, as i said. the crop is so tight that there is no room for the undercroft of that chapter house that you are looking at to the left with the large windows.

Amandajm (talk) 06:15, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The chapel is virtually invisible in the old thumbnail. I have no objection if you wish to include a good image of the chapel later in the article. If you look at the top image in the St Andrew article, you will see that it too omits parts of his body, and there's no sin in that.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

OK! It is like this: there is a rule on Wikipedia that says that editors do not own articles, and that trotting our "ownership" is a breach of policy. On the other hand, a clause or two later says something to the effect that an editor's involvement ought to be acknowledged. That means that if a random drops by and insists on a change that is not a point of fact or grammar, then the major contributor ought to have a little more say in the matter than the random.

I don't want to argue about whether or not the article is headed up by a picture that shows the entire length of the building or one in which the Lady Chapel is cut out. Please just be sufficiently polite as to acknowledge that the main writer here would prefer that Lady Chapel about which I have written. to be included, along with space enough at the bottom of the picture for the viewer to at least imagine the depths of the picture.

You can insist on your own way, and call in support, if you choose, but you are going to look quite ungenerous in doings so.

Amandajm (talk) 06:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the most generous thing to do is wait a day or so. The United States is mostly asleep right now, and when it wakes up then more people might give some more input here. I won't be calling in any support, but rather plan on reverting to your preferred image if that is the consensus. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Does it mean a great deal to you? Amandajm (talk) 06:57, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Excellent job, this will do nicely:

Amandajm's newer image

Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:59, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

So glad that you are satisfied.

What about the consensus from the Americas? Are we still waiting on it?

Amandajm (talk) 07:09, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, if America is displeased, then you and I can stand against America together.  :-) Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:33, 24 November 2013 (UTC)