Talk:Wallace Fard Muhammad/Archive 2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Wallace Fard was his name.

He never referred to himself as "Fard Mohammed." Ericl (talk) 16:20, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

PROPOSED NEW EDIT - I WELCOME FEEDBACK BEFORE MAKING THE EDIT

Each year, a mini-museum of sorts is put together during the Nation of Islam’s annual convention which includes many hand-written documents from Wallace Fard Muhammad. His personal secretary wrote a book about her experience working closely with him in Michigan in the early 1930s. Numerous past members of the Nation of Islam have recounted their experiences with him during the Nation of Islam’s founding. Letters and instructions to his laborers are in the possession of various members of the Nation of Islam, and relatives of past members. Lessons, instructions, classes, and laws prepared by him have been strictly enforced and memorized by hundreds of thousands of people over many decades. Sources hostile to the Nation of Islam placed the number of followers during his time in Michigan at 8,000, and other sources place the number as high as 25,000. From these followers, developed a well-established account of what actually took place.

With the above history in existence, many people familiar with his work have become frustrated with the poor representation of Wallace Fard Muhammad on Wikipedia (according to notes on the edit page). I became frustrated in this way recently and was blocked from making edits because of the way that I chose to handle the frustration. I have thought about ways that I could approach this subject better.

Please consider the comment made by someone on Wallace Fard Muhammad’s edit page on November 20, 2014 (I believe this point was deleted today but I will leave my point because it illustrates what I'm trying to say). The editor states: “He was never called ‘Mohammed’ during his lifetime and we shouldn’t call him that now.” This editor clearly has not seen the material written by Wallace Fard Muhammad containing the name Muhammad. One of his lessons, memorized by literally hundreds of thousands of members of the Nation of Islam since the 1930’s, begins with the words “My name is W.F. Muhammad…” His instructions to his laborers contain the title “W.D. Fard Muhammad.” As Elijah Muhammad stated in his book Message to the Blackman, “[i]n the third year (1933), He signed his name W.F. Muhammad which stands for Wallace Fard Muhammad.”

Anyone familiar with this subject would wonder, why would someone attempt to edit this Wikipedia page if they have not even read the most basic material written by Wallace Fard Muhammad? But there are obviously a vast number of people making edits to this page of this type.

In my previous edits to this page, I took the position that people making comments like this were “intentionally” placing false information on this page. However, I must consider the fact that many editors have made factually inaccurate contributions unknowingly. For that reason, I have attempted to take the view of such writers into consideration more carefully. It is my intention to edit this page, but I wanted to post my intentions first to receive feedback from those that have written in the past.

The opening sentence on the current version of the Wikipedia page of Wallace Fard Muhammad, under the title Wallace D. Fard, states:

“Historians have used public records to identify Fard as Wallace Dodd Ford, a former restaurateur and Moorish Science Temple leader.”

Any Wikipedia reader who reads this sentence would falsely believe that there exists somewhere a historian that conducted research and discovered that Wallace Fard Muhammad is Wallace Dodd Ford. There is absolutely no historian of this type.

Karl Evanzz is cited as a source for the above sentence. However, Karl Evanzz states in his publication that he did not conduct research and identify Fard as Ford. Rather, he states clearly that he performed a Freedom of Information Act request to the FBI in 1978. He states that it took the FBI 10 years to answer. He states that the FBI file contained a Fard / Ford connection and he simply recounted what he saw in their file. He then recounts the experience of other scholars who wanted to know about Wallace Fard Muhammad, and how they conducted Freedom of Information Act requests to the FBI themselves. No historian “used public records to identify Fard as Wallace Dodd Ford.”

I raise the above point to illustrate the core problem editing this Wikipedia page. There is one extremely hostile source – the FBI. And there is one extremely flattering source – the Nation of Islam. Writers, historians, authors, etc. either quote the FBI or they quote the Nation of Islam. There is nothing else to cite as a reference other than someone quoting the FBI (like Evanzz) or someone quoting the Nation of Islam.

If someone unfamiliar with the subject goes to the current Wikipedia page of Wallace Fard Muhammad, they would believe the following false information:

1) That historians found a Fard / Ford connection through research of public records and the connection is unquestionable. In reality, the cited source simply quoted portions of the contents of an FBI file (a fact not contained on the Wikipedia page).

2) That Fard was born in 1893. In reality, Wallace Dodd Ford was born in 1920, and Wallie D. Ford was born in 1891, and the founder of the Nation of Islam said that he was born in 1877.

3) That he was affiliated with the Moorish Science Temple. In reality, Wallie Ford’s wife says that he “never had any unusual political, economic, social or religious beliefs, and that he had never indicated any interest in such things.” Yet Wikipedia readers are to take as absolute fact the belief that he was released from a multi-year prison sentence in California at the end of May 1929, then he was placed in charge of finances of the successful Moorish Science Temple two months later and was a candidate for leadership of the group at that time (a few weeks after being released from prison). Wikipedia readers are also to believe that he raised 8,000 members according to hostile sources, and 25,000 members according to NOI sources, while preaching for only 3 years and 4 months having no brush with religion of any kind in his life’s history prior. There is a level of intellectual dishonesty present when the theory is advanced that the Moorish Science Temple (with all its followers) had a guy a few weeks out of prison rise to the top of its ranks with such speed, then produce a larger and more devoted following than arguably any religious teacher in the modern era in 3 years and 4 months. If this theory is advanced, intellectual honesty requires that it be presented as what it is - a theory advanced and believed by some with absolutely no concrete evidence to support it.

4) That Moorish Science is similar to the teaching of the Nation of Islam. Whoever wrote this on this Wikipedia page has obviously spent little to no time reading the teachings of Wallace Fard Muhammad or Noble Drew Ali.

5) That Wallace Fard Muhammad wrote a book called Secret Rituals of the Lost-Found Nation of Islam – an allegation made by the NOI’s detractors in the early years - with no evidence to support the allegation (a fact unknown to Wikipedia readers). It defies logic that an entire book could exist, written by Wallace Fard Muhammad, that no one affiliated with him knew about, including his staff, his secretary, his laborers, and followers. Extreme care was taken by a lot of people to distribute his words through a carefully arranged procedure, with followers following an established process to obtain lessons via mail. We are supposed to believe that no one knew that he had written an entire book, and it failed to find its way into use, dialogue, etc. from devoted followers. But only detractors knew about it? There is too much history from actual people - history that could not be true if such a book was written by him. People that are trying to contribute to this page using Google searches and a few hostile sources are not able to appreciate how unfounded this actually is.

6) That Wallace Fard Muhammad’s founding of the NOI was nothing more than selling items, Moorish Science, and a ritual killing. Nothing of the actual known history is referenced. If this were the intellectually responsible way to present his founding of the Nation of Islam, why would so many people have been affected in so deep a way for so many years by such? Evanzz described the FBI's search for Fard as the federal government's most exhaustive search for someone in a non-criminal matter in the country's history. Would this really have happened for a guy who sold some items, quoted some Moorish Science, then inspired a ritual killing, and disappeared? The history requires an effort to balance these assertions.

7) That Wallace Fard Muhammad didn’t teach anything. The Wikipedia page is void of his actual teaching. I quoted a passage from Message to the Blackman in a previous edit where Elijah Muhammad recounts what Wallace Fard Muhammad taught, but someone came behind me and deleted everything after the words “some of the planets other an earth” to give the impression that he taught nothing but tidbits about God and the devil and other planets.


These problems exist in my view because the entire Wikipedia page is a recitation of the FBI’s COINTELPRO assertions – quoted by people that conducted Freedom of Information Act requests, such as Evanzz. I previously attempted to bring balance to this page by saying basically, “On one hand those citing the FBI say this……, and those citing the NOI say this……..” My edit was deleted and the current page was reinstated. I believe it was deleted, in part, because the people contributing to this page believe there was some research independent of the FBI’s COINTELPRO actions cited by Evanzz and others.

I have decided to take a new approach that will satisfy those who take the FBI based assertions as gospel while simultaneously providing balance. Specifically, I will include the following:

a) The FBI’s May 16, 1957 memo states that no effort had been made to locate W.D. Fard and the effort began for the first time, at that time (23 years after his disappearance). A search of the name Ford brought two suspects, one of which was a prominent movie actor. The second was Wallie D. Ford, whose wife was interviewed and criminal history at San Quentin examined. The FBI closed all efforts to locate Fard on April 15, 1958. The FBI then published an article on August 15, 1959 in the New Crusader Newspaper of Chicago stating that Fard Muhammad was a Turkish born Nazi agent for Hitler during World War II, and Fard and Elijah Muhammad came up with the idea for the Nation of Islam while in prison together in Milan, Michigan in 1943. I will cite sources that have been openly hostile to the NOI for this information, including Evanzz. I will also cite the New Crusader Newspaper.

b) FBI Feb. 19, 1963 memo states “in connection with efforts to disrupt and curb growth of the NOI, extensive research has been conducted into various files maintained by this office. Among the files reviewed was that of Wallace Dodd Ford.” The file goes on to outline Wallace Dodd Ford’s criminal history and family history, then it states “investigative efforts to verify this were negative.” Ed Montgomery publishes his article on July 28, 1963, with the FBI as his source, in the Los Angeles Evening Herald-Examiner “Black Muslim Founder Exposed As White.” I will cite LA Evening Herald-Examiner, Evanzz, and FBI Feb. 19, 1963 memo.

c) Lastly, in the late 1970s and 1980s, Freedom of Information Act requests are made to the FBI regarding Wallace Fard Muhammad. Some seeking the requests, published material containing the FBI file info.

d) I will include a detailed history of Wallace Fard Muhammad’s activities during the 1930 to 1934 founding of the NOI citing a white professional who interviewed numerous members of the NOI during those years.

e) I will utilize Wallace Fard Muhammad’s own words to outline his teaching. I will also include the rest of the cite from Message to the Blackman that was partially cut by a previous editor. Lastly, I will include his dietary law which is among the most important aspects of his message that tens of thousands follow from his teaching today.

f) The above will be woven into the current Wikipedia page.

g) The In Culture section contains a reference to the book Middlesex, which has no societal significance. I am going to add to the In Culture section references to quotes of Wallace Fard Muhammad in Hip-Hop music, among the Black community, which is most affected by his work. Wallace Fard Muhammad and Minister Louis Farrakhan are arguably the most quoted people in the history of Hip-Hop music. I will add a few quotes from recent artists like Jay Z - "I'm going to chase the Yacub back in the cave," Jay Electronica - "God tribe of Shabazz stylin' on the record," and quotes from years ago like Brand Nubian - "This asiatic black man is a dog spelled backwards The maker, the owner, the cream of the planet earth Father of civilization, God of the universe," or Wu Tang Clan, Poor Righteous Teachers, Rakim, etc.

The above outlines my intention. I welcome feedback before making these edits.

Kwm1975 (talk) 04:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

ADDITIONAL POINT BEFORE EDITING

In my talk section above, I have requested feedback on my proposed edit to the Wallace Fard Muhammad page. I have an additional point that I would like to receive feedback on prior to editing the page.

In prior discussions on the talk page, the valid point was raised by others that the page should begin with the reason that Wallace Fard Muhammad has a Wikipedia page to begin with. The current page does not give such information at all. But in any event, such information should not only be included, it should form the way that the page begins. There was a response previously to this point on the talk page stating that his biography is important to the issue of how he is viewed, so the biography controversy should go first according to someone who posted previously.

While that is at least a point to consider, it is also true that Wallace Fard Muhammad is personally responsible for more people being converted to the religion of Islam than any other individual human being in world history since the Prophet Muhammad himself. This is a historical fact. The Nation of Islam has several offshoot organizations that are religious in nature, and offshoot organizations that are secular in nature. Even the most harsh critic of Wallace Fard Muhammad and Elijah Muhammad, among the followers of Warith Deen Mohammed for example, are always forced to admit that the Blacks in their organization would be Christians at this very moment (with a very small exception) if it were not for the coming and work of Wallace Fard Muhammad. This is only one example. When you add the Muslims in the Nation of Islam, the Muslims in the offshoot religious organizations, individuals converted to Islam through the work of the Nation of Islam who did not join the organization, people converted internationally in places like London, Central, and South America, and Canada, you can not find an individual personally responsible for a religious conversion on this scale recently. And each month there are new members added to the roles of the Nation of Islam domestically and internationally because there are literally tens of thousands of people memorizing and taking to heart his instruction to "help to Arise the dead Nation, and place them on top of civilization."

I do not intend to reference the above facts in my edit. I raise this point to simply place into perspective who we are dealing with.

Further, there is no aspect of Black life in America that has not been deeply affected and influenced by the Nation of Islam. This includes politics, culture, music, art, education, sports, science, medicine, diet, and economics. I could elaborate on this point for those unaware of this subject, but please consider all of the influences of the graduates from Muhammad Universities of Islam since the 1950's to the present, the influence of the NOI's farm projects, banks, entrepreneurial endeavors (particularly from the 1940s through the 1970's), the engineers and doctors who say that they went into those fields because of the way that fields of science were pushed by the NOI, NOI Ministers such as Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan, and Warith Deen Mohammed, the Jesse Jackson presidential campaign, any number of local political controversies with the NOI at the center, sports figures from Muhammad Ali all the way down to current football and basketball stars, Black participation in U.S. wars (this issue is how Elijah Muhammad was arrested), Hip-Hop artists like Public Enemy, 1960's so-called Black power organizations (on the secular front) whose founders say that they decided to start their groups after hearing the NOI, international issues and influences on world leaders like Muammar Gaddafi who loaned Elijah Muhammad money and appointed Louis Farrakhan the deputy commander of a world Islamic people's organization, and African leaders who say that they grew up listening to NOI tapes. I could go on for hours on this subject. Even in yesterday's news and in social media over the last week, the NOI influence on the Ferguson Missouri debate is significant and it is all based upon what Wallace Fard Muhammad said. This is not even to mention the NOI's influence on the church and Christian pastors. Also, ask almost any Black person that goes to prison about the influence of Islam from the NOI's work, in the prison system since Elijah Muhammad's incarceration and the incarceration of many others in the group. It is immeasurable and talked about significantly in the Black community.

The point is this. Whether we want to admit it or not, and whether someone believes Wallace Fard Muhammad was not who he says that he was, millions of Black Americans will say that the core message and organizational system that he is responsible for creating, had significant immeasurable influence upon their lives. This is who we are dealing with on this Wikipedia page. I do not intend to go into the above in my edit.

Having said that, how do you begin the Wikipedia page of a person whose theology and teaching is responsible for the above? The answer is that you begin the page with what the person did and how they are viewed in the context of their life's work by the people they influenced. People who are doing specific things in situations like Ferguson Missouri today only because they are thinking about things that he said. You do not begin the page with the thinking of people off to the side who do not like him or believe him. After a proper introduction of why the person is being talked about, then you go into the deeper analysis.

It is my intention, when I make my new edit that is referenced in my talk section above, to also start the page differently. I welcome comments on this point as well.

Kwm1975 (talk) 11:29, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwm1975 (talk • contribs) 11:23, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Shabazz

The edit that has just been added about the name "Shabazz" should not be included. First, Fard did not claim that all human beings belong to the tribe of Shabazz except Whites. He said the subsaharan blacks migrated into Africa 50,000 years ago and they are from the ancient tribe of Shabazz. It makes no sense to pull this one title (Shabazz) out of the vast array of teachings of Fard, and discuss it by itself. Your comments about Shabazz includes a lot of speculation and facts that I would disagree with. But it is not necessary for us to go in depth into this now in my view, because there is no logical reason to discuss Shabazz on this page. I intend to delete the Shabazz references because it does not add to the overall page, it is not accurate, and it is unnecessary and not helpful.

It seems the author of the Shabazz references has some personal beliefs about the name Shabazz and Afghanistan. Perhaps an article in another forum or publication would be best to discuss those views. But the references in your section are mere speculation, not supported by facts. They are also unnecessary on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwm1975 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Edits to Opening Section

A few edits were made by Nijacunning to the original "Beynon's Account" section that I included previously. The purpose of this brief dialogue is to explain why I am changing the language back to the way it was when I originally included the section on Beynon.

Before I included a section on Beynon, it was my opinion that there was nothing included about Fard's actual activity among his followers. I intentionally used Beynon as my source of information for Fard's activity in the opening section because there is a degree of skepticism among many contributors to this site about Nation of Islam sources. Obviously, the only people who actually have a first hand account of Fard's activities among his followers, is his actual followers (from the Nation of Islam). So I thought long and hard about how I could include the relevant facts that are not in dispute about Fard's activity, without drawing skepticism. I solved the problem by using Beynon as my only source. Thus far, it seems that people do not have a problem with the Beynon section.

Beynon never met Fard. He interviewed Fard's followers. From his interviews, we have two separate items of interest: 1) facts derived from Beynon's discussions with followers, and 2) Beynon's opinion about various things from those discussions. Among the items that can be classified as "opinion" is the characterization of the Nation of Islam as a "cult."

I intentionally included in my original draft "facts" that are not in dispute. I excluded Beynon's opinion items. I did so because Beynon is not the only person with an opinion, and there are many people whose opinion is arguably worth more consideration on this than his.

It appears that Nijacunning changed the language of the section so that it now provides both items that can reasonably be classified as "opinion" and items that followers of Fard would dispute. If such items are included, the site would have to include the view of the other side. However, I do not believe it would be reasonable to go down that road because the items presented by Nijacunning actually do not add value. For example, the words "Like other Arab and Syrian peddlers, he..." does not add to the reader's knowledge of Fard. It only shows that Nijacunning and/or Beynon personally believe that Fard's actions were like Arab and Syrian peddlers. It goes without saying that the words "The founder of the cult..." simply raise a non-factual point of dispute. This is why I did not discuss Beynon's "cult" language in the body of the article. Readers are able to see his title in the footnotes and read the article for themselves.

For the actual body of the article, I believe it is best to simply include undisputed facts. Every undisputed fact of value is included in the original draft. For this reason, I am changing the language back to the way it was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwm1975 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Wolverine Possession Act?

Google is obviously not a comprehensive research tool, but it still seems strange to me that googling "wolverine possession act" only yields this page and references to it (and "wolverine possession act" -fard produces a single reddit conversation that avoids WFM's name but still quotes this page)

Was there actually such a law or is this a long standing hoax? 2A02:908:1062:5260:34D5:F94F:2506:FC03 (talk) 00:30, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

History lacking

In the current version [1], the biography/history section seems to be lacking. For example, it quotes extensively about how the FBI looked in to the Wallie D. Ford of California arrested 1926, interviewing his wife, tracing his family history, finding his draft card etc. But it doesn't seem to provide any real info on why the FBI was sure this person was Wallace Fard Muhammad other than they they conducted a search for people with similar aliases based on Beynon's article and only found Wallie D. Ford and the actor.

Above, I see some mention of photographs and fingerprints of the two, but our article doesn't mention this currently. In the absence of some clear link, the obvious problem is the possibility the FBI simply failed to find the real Wallace Fard, perhaps because it wasn't his real name but an alias rarely used before he appeared in Michigin. (And this was long before computerisation plus records does days were likely sketchy, after all it's not clear when or where he was born.) While Wallace or WD Fard seems a bit of a weird alias there was after all the actor who's name may have appeared in the papers or whatever. Notably, given the politics of the time, it seems sources would generally want to take care about automatically trusting the FBI without looking at the evidence. (Some commentators above suggested planted evidence, but that's a far more extreme accusation than they simply failed to find the real person.)

On that point, has there been no independent scholarly analysis? Our article briefly mentions Karl Evanzz and other authors who looked at the FBI file, but doesn't really say anything about whether they looked at the evidence and found it convincing that Wallie D. Ford was Wallace Fard Muhammad. (And interesting point is whether anyone has done a search given that a number of historic records and now computerised and publicly available for anyon other people with similar names or aliases.) By the same token, there seems very little info on why he disappeared in 1934, but I assume some sources must have looked in to it.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:59, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Master Fard?

I go to an Islamic school though i am not a muslim. it is actually a Nation of Islam school, and i go for the education. i beileive what minister farrakhan and elijah muhammad are saying, but im not so sure about fard. they say in the nation that he is god in person, and that he is in a giant flying space ship with elijah muhammad. they said that neither of them died, and soon they will burn america for 300 years for her sins. i think its all just to much junk. not that i dont believe it, but then again not that i do. but i do beilieve in god, and thats all that matters is that i stay on the path with god...-Richard —Preceding unsigned comment added by user:Blubbernugget (talk • contribs)

I somehow agree that Blacks are Asiatic, but what about the so-called "White Man" of America ? Did you know that Blacks and whites are both Asiatic ? this is because they both come from around the same places...Not every white man is "truely Caucasian", they can claim to be though. I'm Caucasian but I'm also 1/8 Native American in descent, I consider myself Asiatic.Just My theory, what did you think ? By the way,Why would a man like Mr.Fard say that all white people are pure evil and can't repent ? I realize my sins but this man lied and HE IS NOT JESUS OR "ALLAH-IN_PERSON" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.95.238 (talk • contribs)
There is no somehow agreement that blacks are Asiatic, why, because we come from the continent East Asia, which is now known as Africa. No Master Fard Muhammad is NOT Jesus and no one ever said he was. He is Allah in the Person and he doesn't lie. How dare you spit on the Saviours statements. You can repent but you are not saved. Whites are just a part of the black man so yall will end up gone and once again only a part of the black man like how it once was. Yall will only be in thought and spirit without form. Sorry but it is Allah's will. You will get spared during the war of Armaggeddon though. I'm not knocking that, i'm just saying in the long run yall will decease. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.254.250.9 (talk) 01:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

to the person before me. wow. That isnt your place to say. God spares who he spares and take who he takes. are you god? no. So you dont know. -Richard

I'm not saying God won't spare anyone, obviously he will, and he'll probably spare a lot of people that we all thought should've been thrown into the lake of Fire, but if the sun itself is chemically causing whites to becom steril and decreasing their birth rate then eventually they will all cease to exist. Now ask yaself why would God bring them on this planet and genetically make them subseptable to the sun so that eventually hey will die out? What's the reason behind that, ask in the best of manners and the answers will come.

what proof is there that the sun is making white people steril? What scientific expiriment did someone do to prove thaT?? No, and there is no proof. i know, now im going to get a response like : Cause MFM (fard) said it, or farrakhan said it, so its automatically true. Well, show me the truth, PROOF. And dont just say there are less white people than everyoe else on earth because they arent, and even if they were, thats no proof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.251.152.237 (talk) 22:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha ha, yes you are sadly mistaken in your knowledge but your passion is admireable, i do say that. First, are u a scientist? Have you looked at the fact that you need melanin that is found in the pigmentation that is in brown, yellow red or black skin in order for metabolization of Vitamin D and calcium. You get most of Vitamin d and Calcium from the suns rays, that was a question i had in 4th grade, what vitamin does the suns rays give off? I remember the answer now because i was so mad at the time that I got the answer wrong, but vitamin d comes from the sun, milk too but much of it comes from the sun. What is the rule of heat and colors, dark colors absorb while light colors reflect. So instead of absorbing the necessary Vitamins from the sun white skin reflects it because of it's light pigmentation. This leaves a depletion of calcium which the body tends to draw from the bones and sperm, making the bones frail and making the sperm count dwindle. The population of white in the entire world is about 500,000,000. while the population of blackls all over the world is about 4,420,000,000, from those numbers i would have to say that there are more black people. I got this from white scientists, it's amazing what you find when you actually are open to things. Have you not heard of how whites birthrate in America has a 0% increase in the past 4 years? They, (The racist ones and ones in high position) have said in around 20 to 50 years America will be a brown nation, instead of the majority by whites, and that's not including the immigrants immigrating so-called illeagally, they didn't account for them because they aren't counted. Look this stuff up, it's quite obvious really, if you want to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.99.222 (talk) 01:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC) what ever, im done with this. Your answer was retarted and so are you. your just another racist a-hole who has nothing better to do but f up the world. Everyone is equal. and btw, riiight.... white birth rate is 0%... smooooth scientist. Im sorry, do you not see all of the pregnant women out there. right, birth rAte is at 0% -Richard, aka Sybil, aka Bob

Yea i see pregnant women but you didn't specify that they were white. When the birth rate is at a 0% that means it's increase is 0%. It didn't improve from one year to the next which would be odd if people are being born right. Really your people proved it for me so those facts you have to take it up with your scientists alright. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.73.110.249 (talk) 23:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

"You get most of Vitamin d and Calcium from the suns rays... what vitamin does the suns rays give off?" It's amazing that this STUPIDITY was posted in 2007 and no one has challenged it as of Sept. 2012. The rays of LIGHT coming from the sun carries no calcium or vitamin of any kind. You must have been in a Muslim school if that is what you were taught in fourth grade. The Qur'an is full of scientific inaccuracies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.33.182 (talk) 13:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

There should be some way to put some of this delusionary dementia in the article, as a sample of the low-grade thinking in the cult. Maybe it could be used as the basis for an article in an on-line magazine? Then the article could be referenced in a section marked 'Modern Beliefs of the Group'. It should also include verifiable links to statements by the current leader , Louis Farrakhan, about his regular visits to a spaceship, where he meets with Elijah M. and Fard, and passes on their wisdom on his return (these are already sourced in Farrakhan's article, so those references can be used if not removed yet again by someone). 86.148.55.210 (talk) 09:13, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Deleted

I removed the discussion thread entitled "call a spade a spade", due to it being racist spam. Chairman_Sharif

"Call a spade a spade" is an old saying which has absolutely nothing to do with so-called "racism." It probably (I said probably) appeared first amongst poker players, simply because the spades outrank the hearts, diamonds, and clubs. (Thus, there can be no ties in poker hands. An ace of spades outranks an ace of hearts, which outranks an ace of diamonds, which outranks an ace of clubs. AKQJ10 of spades is the highest ranking hand in poker. It outranks AKQJ10 of hearts, which outranks AKQJ10 of diamonds, which outranks AKQJ10 of clubs).
"Call a spade a spade" means "don't cheat" (by claiming that a card is a spade when is not a spade). Wherever and however the saying arose, it not "racist spam" — I had heard of it and "Wallace Fard" by 1955, 50 years ago. GhostofSuperslum 02:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The 'spade' saying dates back past that, referring to the garden tool. A spade with its straight edge ( as opposed to a shovel ) was generally used for spreading soft stuff, like mulch or manure and it was considered a slightly indelicate thing to refer to. In Mark Twain's autobio, there is an account of a talk he had with a New Woman of the 1890's on certain subjects, which Twain described as 'the damnedest conversation I have ever had with anyone, of either sex". She "called a spade a spade, without coldly symbolizing it as a snow shovel [another straight edge]" (quotes from memory). There is also a reference to the phrase in Wilde's 'The Importance of Being Ernest' from about that time.

It would be possible for some racist to give the phrase his own twist, but the phrase itself has no racial content at all, given or implied. 86.148.55.210 (talk) 09:25, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Afghanistan vs. Pakistan birthplace

This article is confusing. It seems to say that he was born both in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It also seems to say he might have been in Hawaii or New Zealand. If no one knows for sure, why is his birthplace not listed as undetermined or disputed? Kaltenmeyer (talk) 04:04, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Balance

This article focuses heavily on Master Fard Mohammed's mysterious origin and little about his teachings and why he was so influential. It also has a heavy focus on Beynon's article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CarlSerafino (talk • contribs) 14:57, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

comment

What a disgrace for wikipedia to address Wallace Fard Muhammad as a criminal, not as a person. He is obviously persecuted in his time an now on. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.153.114.141 (talk) 22:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

"Fard" did three years in prison for narcotics, under his real name, Wallace Dodd.Verklempt 19:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Fard never did time in prison at all. He was sent to jail in his 2nd or 3rd year of teaching and he was sent there for teaching black people a superior knowledge then what the world has ever had. Also for aquainting black people with the truth of their history. Not to say that blacks were always perfect but to give a better view on black people after feeling as if there was nothing for them that they were able to do. He used history to encourage, and the natural law of evolution means that black people would be smarter and better today then back then, so they could easily get to and surpass the greatness that they had achieved in the past but with such ease in the present and future. Also his true name is Wali Fard Muhammad, and really he calls it an attribute because names are supposed to be an identifyer of your attributes, or characteristic. His name means a protecting friend (Wali) that is obligatorily (Fard) worthy of praise (Muhammad).

Some sources for that would be useful. The name stuff is interesting, and it should be easy enough to find whether he was jailed for narcotics or religious persecution. 86.148.55.210 (talk) 09:31, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

From The Nation Of Islam: https://www.noi.org/fard-muhammad-fbi-cointelpro/ which seems to confirm his arrests and prison terms. I won't edit the article because I am not qualified to do so, but I think that more sources should be put up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C51:7680:4B47:CC09:68D1:7B11:35DA (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Black?

This is ridiculous, many 'blacks' do not have dark skin. Also why is the standard for external links on this article unlike the standard used in other articles such as 'Yogananda'? In other words the Yogananda article (like many others) include links to organizations which spring from that subjects disciples. Yet in this article my attempts to post a link to a Buddhist organization which springs from Wallace Ford are always erased. Why?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.15.57 (talk) 06:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

He's not black? Look at the blacks, they have dark skin, he could be Italian or a mixed, but he's not a black.

82.3.233.109 15:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

He was from New Zealand, probably of mixed parentage.Verklempt 19:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, what do you call one that is light skinned, you call them black. They put down black when they tell of their race. If they are mixed America calls them black. Why? The black trait is a dominent trait in genetics so you have to go with that of which that is more dominent. Master Fard Muhammad (to whom be praised forever) is mixed, by a Black Original Man named Alfonso, and a white woman who was the most purified woman in the world. Master Fard Muhammad, Allah in the person is a Black Man.

Of course there is no evidence for your claims. He put himself down as white on the 1920 census.Verklempt 01:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong in the date because they didn't take census that year. It was every 5 years starting in 1901, so you it would've had to have been in 1921, secondly who wrote it, Wallace Fard Muhammad or Wallace Dodd Ford because these are two different people.

Is that so? Perhaps you shold read the 1920 US Federal Census. Paul B (talk) 00:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "black trait", and gene "dominance" is not decided by the entirely man-made concept that we think of as "race". Using these terms proves that you don't know anything about science. I suggest you read a biology book sometime. While you're at it, a sociology book wouldn't hurt either. StrangeApparition2011 (talk) 02:06, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Several accounts of this group refer to its leaders suppressing photos of Fard because they thought he looked too white. Let's find them, and put them in, along with a comparison of different accounts of who he was, and a look at the possibility he had no black blood, or was 'passing' with very little. It is relevant because of the group's racial views, and how they deal with them. 86.148.55.210 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:39, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

https://www.noi.org/fard-muhammad-fbi-cointelpro/ I doubt that a white man would create the NOI, but what do i know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.176.1.245 (talk) 20:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

White arabs

"He ... was described as a white Arab man, but remembered as being a "light-skinned" black man by leaders of the Nation of Islam. "

LOL when has anyone ever been described as a "white" Arab in all of history?? In no other context would an Arab be described as white... except here, where it is positioned to undermine the NOI's racial views. Weasel word, I guess? ^ Elijah Muhammad did in his June 18th 1972 Theology of Time lecture — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C8:380:B200:31D4:8FD7:FC13:6B4F (talk) 03:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I've edited to correct and also I would ask for reliable sources citing claims of WFM being a "white Arab". Further, "white Arab" is not defined or mentioned on the page for Arabs. This term will also need to be defined.

Moreover, that this point is raised in the intro paragraph suggests that this page would have his racial identity and controversy to be a main focus of this article... It is fine to mention controversial points, but while it may be important to critics, it should not be a _fundamental_ topic of the article.

146.115.145.17 (talk) 13:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

This is what the source cited, which is hard to access, says:
The Black Muslim movement came into being around 1930. Its first apostle was Wallace D. Fard, or Wallace Fard Muhammad, a salesman of silks, incense, and perfumes in the Detroit ghetto who is remembered variously as a light-skinned black man, a light-skinned Arab, and a white man.
(What the Wikipedia article said ("He was also known as being a seller of silk, incense, and perfume and was described as a white Arab man, but remembered as being a 'light-skinned' black man by leaders of the Nation of Islam.") seems uncomfortably close to plagiarism and should be changed.
C. Eric Lincoln wrote that Fard was described variously by those who knew him as: (a) a Jamaican Negro whose father was a Syrian Moslem, (b) a Palestinian Arab, and (c) descended from the Tribe of Koreish (the tribe of the prophet Muhammad). Lincoln says that a Chicago newspaper described him as Turkish. (The Black Muslims in America, 1961, p. 12)
According to Herbert Berg's Elijah Muhammad and Islam (2009), Fard's police records describe him as "'white' with a 'dark' complexion" (p. 24).
On the second issue, the importance of his skin color, I think we need to follow WP:LEAD and WP:WEIGHT, the relevant guidelines. First, the opening section should summarize the text of the article, not introduce facts that aren't discussed elsewhere in the text. Second, how much importance do biographers and historians put on Fard's skin color. With respect to the second point, I would estimate that two-thirds of the books I've read about the Nation of Islam and Elijah Muhammad and perhaps 40% or 50% of the books I've read about Malcolm X start their material about Fard by discussion his mysterious origins and his skin color. In the United States of the 1930s, skin color was a much more significant social barrier than it is now. Some descriptions of Fard see to me to be clearly mythological (born into the same tribe as Muhammad). Other accounts seem more likely, including the idea that people who knew him weren't sure whether he was a light-skinned black man or a dark-skinned white man.
I don't think we should delete the material about Fard's skin color, but I also don't think it belongs in the opening section of the article. Unlike most other Wikipedia biographies, this one has no "Early life" section in which the material would naturally fit. If you have any suggestions, please share them. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

WD Fard was probably no immigrant

The YouTuber "Resume Byron", who puts a lot of effort in tracing the roots of WD Fard and his person in general, released a clip five months ago, where he establishes the the theory that Fard wasn't foreign at all, but a native of Jasper, Texas.

He and his family did belong to the group of mixed-race people, which were not considered White nor Black, but were labeled as "mullatos". The mullato community of this area existed outside of the Black and White scheme and they usually did intermarry. Besides some that could "pass as Whites", because of their physical appearance. 

This hypothesis, which is based on Census reports, would shake the foundations of basically every theory there was before.

I encourage everyone to have a look on this clip and also the prior work of "Resume Byron".

I can't post the link because YouTube is blacklisted, but the name of the clip is "Wallace Fard Was not Foreign" by the user "Resume Byron".

It's really worth a watch and the time, if you're interested in the "mysterious" past of Fard.

This theory is completely new to me and I don't think it was ever discussed here. Even by doing a quick Google research, the only time I saw it being mentioned was in a subreddit 27th December of 2021. And I don't know where the user that made this post had it's infos. But it gives a hint that someone came up with this before.

While the documentation, by the 1910 US Census, that there was a mullato named Wallace Fard and had at least one son is rock solid, one has to decide if this was the first official record of "WD Fard". The founder of the Nation of Islam.

Well, I hope that there will be a discussion about it. KingOfRay (talk) 11:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

YouTube is not blacklisted, the links above work. But it is rarely considered a reliable source. When it is it's usually something like a major newspapers YouTube site. I see no reason to see the person making those videos can possibly meet WP:RS even if he used his own name (which I found but found nothing about him). And we can't do our own research. Doug Weller talk 11:56, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
John Andrew Morrow has written about virtually every possible origin for Fard, and one of them is definitely that he was a "white passing" American with black ancestry. Writing up Morrow's scholarship is on my to-do list, and I'll look at Resume Byron's videos to see if they have RSes inside them we could potentially use. Feoffer (talk) 22:40, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
@Feoffer I should have looked at this first I guess before replying to you elsewhere. Of course that makes sense. Morrow, I'm not completely sure about. His full professorship is from a community college. I can't find much about the "Covenants Foundation" other than that he directs it. I see a book of his is Covenants of the Prophet with the Christians of the World[2], a hard to find (for me at least) book by this publisher[3] and see [4] for which we have no article. Doug Weller talk 07:22, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Finding W.D. Fard is published by Cambridge Scholars Publishing and Morrow does cite his own sources. So far as I'm aware, (but I'm not yet up to speed) Morrow doesn't reach any definitive conclusions of his own (in contrast to the Byron video that makes a strong thesis statement USING material from Morrow). If Morrow says things that ever conflict with mainstream scholarship, obviously we should weight accordingly.
If you have sources you think is more-definitive than the Morrow book, I'm open to them. I'm new-ish to the subject. Feoffer (talk) 07:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
@Feoffer CSP isn't a reliable source. It's article casts doubt on it and discussions at RSN have mainly said either don't use it at all, or only on a case by case basis. And at best WP:UNDUE would apply, ie if only Morrow says it, we shouldn't use it. Doug Weller talk 09:37, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the info about CSP! My bad! Yeah, it sounds like Morrow is only useful when he can link us to the writings of more-reputable scholars -- turns out his degree was in Spanish Lit?!? Feoffer (talk) 09:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
I should reiterate -- Doug Weller is completely correct when he says it's not a Reliable Source we could use directly. Feoffer (talk) 07:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Copied from User_talk:KingoOfRay

@Feoffer John Andrew Morrow is actually a strong advocate of Fard being foreign.
The census report, which can be found here:
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/GCH7-ZKY/wallace-fard-1868
And the mentioning in this subreddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HighStrangeness/comments/rpzcm7/wallace_farq_mohammed_the_founder_of_the_nation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Are the only sources I can find by a quick Google research.
I don't want to watch the whole work by "Resume Byron" again. But I think that he had more quotes than that. Else, I wouldn't made my post. KingOfRay (talk) 07:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
@Doug Weller I just want this hypothesis getting unnoticed. Even if it doesn't find it's way into the article. Because neither AK Arian or Morrow or any other researcher/source mentioned this possibility. At least this way, maybe some people are going to dig into it. Besides "Resume Byron" of course. Who doesn't reach many people with his small YouTube channel. I think it's an very, very interesting discovery. Together with the last part of the similarities between him and a fellow prisoner called Lucius Lemus/Leemon (?,I don't quite understand the the surname). A man Fard took as his model, even taking up his birthday as the official birthday proclaimed by the NOI. They said he was born in 1877 at the 26th of February. Just like his fellow prisoner Lucius L. He also took other claims made by L. including how many languages he spoke and could write and were he studied. Things Fard and the NOI later adopted.
"Resume Byron" is not a professional scholar, historian or journalist. But I had many conversations with him and he's an autodidact with great knowledge in the field of NOI studies. His own research is limited by his financial abilities. But I consider him better educated in many ways than Morrow. Who of course is an expert and professional in Islamic studies. I also personally think that Morrow didn't have much to add in his book, than AK Arian in "Chameleon" or Karl Evazz in "The Messenger", besides leading one through a jungle of different denominations/practices of Islam. KingOfRay (talk) 09:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
@KingOfRay, wouldn't the 1910 census in Jasper Texas be contradicted by AK Arian's discovery of the 1909 naturalization of Wali Fred Dad in Oregon? Feoffer (talk) 05:13, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
@Feoffer Yes it does! But if you watch the clip by "Resume Byron" again, you'll see that the age (of Wallace Fard Jr.) fits with the age of the St. Quentin inmate, I think. He makes many points why it fits.
You did, at some other point ask if it is proven that St. Quentin Fard, is Detroit Fard. It is! The Detroit police took his fingerprints, when he was interrogated by police related to the "ritual murder", carried our by one of his followers.
On this occasion the two photos of Fard at the police station, printed by the "Detroit Free Press". The Spanish article of Fard uses on of this pictures.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Fard_Muhammad?wprov=sfla1
It's sad that Resume Byron doesn't work/write for a useful source. He's making such a strong case compared to others. Morrow doesn't even want to settle at all, but leaves every option open. Only AK Arian makes the claim that he knows the ship one which Fard allegedly came to the US.
But I also really have to read/buy "The Messenger" and "Chameleon" again. Morrow's book is to expensive to me. So I have to wait for a used edition. But there's a YouTube interview online, were he discussed the main topics of his book. I don't think he discovered anything new, relating to the time of Fard before he went to Detroit. He puts much effort into the teachings of the NOI and by what they're influenced. He comes to the conclusion that most teachings are in line with that of the Ghulāt. A Shia extremist branch.
I personally think that he picked up the basis during his time in St.Quentin. Than by the Ahmadiyya, who were present in many large cities in the US during that time. Trying to spread their teachings in America. He was probably also a member of the Moorish Science Temple of America, in Chicago. The libraries of Chicago and Detroit could also be an easy and free source of information on Islam and it's many different teachings and denominations. And of course he made up a large chunk by himself. Which, of course fitted his person and mission as a con man.
I probably have to add that English is not my native language and I've never been to an English speaking country. So pardon if my posts contain grammatical and misspellings. On that part, I'm an autodidact myself. KingOfRay (talk) 07:46, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, we can't really cite an autodidact on Youtube, but we also won't need to. Byron isn't the first person to suggest that Fard might have been what we'd now call a white-passing African-American. Sounds like I need to get a copy of Chameleon and The Messenger and work from those, rather than Morrow.
Based on your understanding of those three sources, is it controversial to say that the NoI found was' the man arrested in 1926 and sent to San Quentin? I think all mainstream schoalrly sources agree he was the same person, while NoI as a matter of faith teaches that he was not? IS that correct
Thank you so much for helping me get up to speed -- we're supposed to have an article that will get me up to speed, we shall have to write it ourselves. Feoffer (talk) 21:16, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Pictures

At the paragraph "Efforts to trace Fard's history 1914–1926", it says that there are only five known pictures of Fard. This is wrong!

There are two pictures from the "Detroit Free Press" (edition November 24, 1932) that show him, wearing a scarf and presenting a book to two police officers. After he was being arrested, because of a murder case that involved one of his followers/cult member. KingOfRay (talk) 10:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed! This article needs a lot of work. I've changed it to a handful. These are the pictures we have on Wikipedia of Fard:

At some point, all these images should find their way into this article, but we don't really have the narrative to accompany them written yet.

We also need images of the various government documents tied to Fard -- Census record, Marriage records, birth certificates, etc. We probably won't show them in-article, but we should have them available for our readers to inspect. If you know where we could find them, please let me know. Feoffer (talk) 21:01, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Specifically, I'm looking for:
  • May 9, 1914 Marriage Certificate to Pearl Pearl Allen, a native American teenager, in Multnomah County, Oregon,
  • 1915 birth certificate of child with Hazel
  • 1917 Los Angeles phone directory
  • 1924 marriage certificate to Carmen Trevino
  • 1926 prison records
Feoffer (talk) 22:49, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
@Feoffer Wasn't his son, Wallace Max Ford, with Hazel born at the 1st of September 1920? He died serving at the US Coast Guard in 1942. He was born under the name Wallace Dodd Ford in Los Angeles. The name "Max" was added later.
Source: FBI Vault, online available as PDF.
Where did you get the 1915 from?
It's sad that he didn't survive longer. It would've been interesting, if there was the opportunity to bring forward the son of the NOI's saviour. Although they still deny that the man we're talking about was "Professor Ford", or one of the many aliases the NOI acknowledges. KingOfRay (talk) 08:13, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

NPOV issues: Black supremacist and avowed racist.

This man is one of the most notable black supremacists, and one of the most notable racists in history. For every other supremacist, or racist, this is in the lede of the article. If by any stretch of the imagination he played coy with his ideologies or beliefs one could possibly stretch empathy to encompass - nah, I'm joking. You guys label anyone even the least racist person a racist if it suits your agenda. Yet a literal avowed racist who ranted extensively about genociding whites gets 'founder of the nation of islam.' and nothing more.

I want to assume good faith here, but you'd have to have a crayon shoved deep up each nostril to NOT see the blatant POV issue with this article. 2001:8003:2998:5100:50FD:2CD8:8930:2A5B (talk) 22:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm still learning about Fard, but I'm not sure he was a Black Supremacist or if that was more a teaching of his successors. Fard was, at minimum, white-passing. Feoffer (talk) 23:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
@Feoffer Although he was "White-passing" and was registered as White in his draft card and I think also at St. Quentin, his dark complexion and non-acceptance by the general White society, is what probably drove him into black supremacy. Which he definitely preached. This wasn't a narrative first established by Elijah Muhammad or Louis Farrakhan. KingOfRay (talk) 08:21, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Ahmadi Connection Is Uncertain

The efforts of one editor to link the Ahamadi movement to Wallace is scrupulous and easily debatable.

Wallace’s ancestral origins are unknown, with some claiming him to be Arab (among the NOI), New Zealander (among the FBI, Pakistani, Afghan, etc. His knowledge and connection to the South Asian originated Ahmadiyya movement is an interesting theory but not one indisputably supported by data and evidence. Brotheryoda (talk) 01:28, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Brotheryoda Then remove it. I also think that he was got in contact with the Ahmadiyya movement. At exactly this time they send over people to large cities of the US, to preach and spread their message. And I think Fard probably picked up a lot of knowledge about Islam from the Ahmadiyya. But I don't think that there's a single proof for it. So I think no one has a problem if you just remove it from the article. KingOfRay (talk) 08:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Birthdate Changes: Believing that Fard is one of the FBI Leads

Unless you are an NOI fundy (and therefore have your whole faith to lose), you know that ALL the evidence suggests that WD Ford is WD Fard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C8:380:B200:31D4:8FD7:FC13:6B4F (talk) 03:56, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I am the original writer of the current Wallace Fard Muhammad page. Years ago, I came to the page and saw that it was based entirely upon a couple of sources, and those sources basically read the FBI file - developed their own personal belief as to Fard’s identity - then wrote a book outlining their belief. When people come to this subject, they usually fall into one of three camps: 1) People who do not claim to know Fard’s real identity; 2) People who believe strongly that one of the various leads in the FBI file is Fard; and 3) People who believe that Fard is who Elijah Muhammad represented him to be.

When editing Fard’s birthday on this page, for many years, some have chosen to place one of the birthdates of one of the leads from the FBI file (with a note that no one knows the exact birthdate). This approach makes no sense. The FBI concluded that they do not know Fard’s birthdate - after all of their efforts. Further, they internally made it clear that they themselves did not believe that Fard was any of the leads that they developed. Whenever they publicized one of the various identities, claiming that the lead was Fard, internally they stated that their sole purpose was to discredit Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam.

Whenever someone supports the Nation of Islam, they want to “correct the record” by stating that Fard’s birthdate is 1877. Whenever someone believes that Fard is one of the FBI leads, they want to say that his birthdate is one of the lead’s birthdates.

What should actually be placed on this page? Obviously, the footnote should continue to state what it currently states about the date not being known. But when a date is placed on the page, the date that Fard CLAIMED should be the date that is present. I understand that many editors believe that Fard is either this lead found by the FBI or that lead found by the FBI. But that’s your opinion. Any book on the subject can only give some other person’s opinion based upon the same source. So all that there is to say is this: Fard claimed to have been born in 1877 - his actual birthdate is not known for certain. All readers then have a chance to look at the FBI history for themselves. And they can then decide if they believe that one of the FBI leads is Fard. The fact that Fard claimed that his birthdate is 1877 is not disputed and is widely known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwm1975 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kwm1975 The US Census lists his (Wallace Jr.) birth year as 1894.
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/GCH7-ZKY/wallace-fard-1868
Taken this is the (in)famous Wallace Fard Muhammad. But it's in line with his age when he got incarcerated at St. Quentin and other documents. KingOfRay (talk) 08:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

ToDo / Thoughts

  • Per ResumeByron: WDF sold hair relaxer. Important if true given the prominence of the product in Autobio of Malc X.
  • Claim that WDF personally used relaxer cited to Elijah Muhammad's son.
  • Do RSes claim that official portrait by NoI is 'doctored'? (youtubers claim it, and it certainly looks it, alternate version circulating with him holding different, thicker book?)
  • good overview:
    • Arrested after infamous voodoo murder
    • Order to disband the cult as condition of release?
    • Re-arrested in Detroit
    • Threatened with accessory to murder if returns to Detroit
    • Maintained correspondence with Elijah Muhammad

Feoffer (talk) 00:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I think you'll need better sources than Morrow for any of this. Doug Weller talk 07:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
So, catch me up -- I know it would be controversial to say, as fact, that the subject of this article was born in Texas, that's just one of many many theories. Is it controversial in your eyes to say that Wallace Fard Muhammad was W.D. Fard who was arrested in 1926, 1932 and 1933? Feoffer (talk) 09:43, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
I really need to get out of this discussion, it's distracting me from other priorities. We'd need multiple solid sources for that. Doug Weller talk 13:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
@Feoffer The source for his arrest and his involvement in this "voodoo murder" is the Detroit Free Press, not Morrow. The edition of the 24th of November 1932. It even contains a photograph that clearly show the man doing time at St. Quentin.
https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&sxsrf=AB5stBggfh9MDx1gx3Y0sWut96pbzJDk-g:1688978756261&q=wd+fard+newspaper&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjq-LKW4IOAAxUMtaQKHRaXDXAQ0pQJegQIEhAB&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=wRzbPpf8S27HsM KingOfRay (talk) 08:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wallace_Fard_Muhammad/Archive_2&oldid=1193957636"