Talk:Tone Loc

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Listas= setting

@Mikaey, Robofish, DepressedPer, DanielPenfield, and Usernamekiran: What is the reason why this artist's talk page is listed as "Loc, Tone" when the DEFAULTSORT setting is "Tone Loc"? Has the ListasBot ceased keeping pages aligned? The Name sorting guidelines for categories advise to sort by surname only if the article is titled "Forename Surname", otherwise the "sort key should mirror the article's title as closely as possible, while omitting disambiguating terms." This artist should either be listed as "Smith, Anthony Terrell" if the article had the title "Anthony Terrell Smith", as "Smith" is his surname. But since the article title uses his stage name of "Tone Loc", it should be listed as "Tone Loc". Is there anything I should know before I change the setting? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

1. The education level of the average editor is low and there are plenty of editors who literally think any multipart name should be sorted this way. And if you question them, they'll shut you right down with the "WP:NAMESORT is merely a guideline, not a policy" tactic.
2. Someone apparently set up a bot to make it so back in 2009--see this edit.
3. I actually filed a Phabricator task back in 2018 in relation to how AutoWikiBrowser enhances this problem.
4. Undoing this sort of listas was used as ammunition in a topic ban of my work back in 2019--see [1] -- DanielPenfield (talk) 14:35, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@DanielPenfield: Thanks Daniel, I am seeking to understand the rules these editors are applying and if they are using WP:NAMESORT as a guideline for stage names. I am quite aware the current article sorting guidelines advise to use surname first, so I am particularly interested in how a surname is determined in the case of a stage name, as the use of a stage name for an article title is not covered by the guidelines at all! If surname first was properly applied then this article would be listed under "S" for "Smith", instead it gets listed under "L" for "Loc" rather than "T" for "Tone", which makes about as much sense as listing under "A" for "Anthony". I could accept a listing setting "Loc, Tone" if I understood the [il]logical thinking behind it and could express it as a new guideline for sorting using stage names for those articles that use them. From what you have said and I have seen elsewhere my tentative guideline is: If an article title is a multi-word stage name that looks like having a culturally appropriate first name and last name then sort using the last name first. Thus this article is sorted as "Loc, Tone", rather than "Tone Loc". This usage could be supported by the way reliable sources treat a stage name. In a formal setting the artist would be addresses as Mr. "Loc" and informally addressed as "Tone" by his friends. If this was not the case, particularly with reliable sources, or the artist's interactions with associates, then sorting using the literal article title is justified. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@DepressedPer: I missed your edit earlier today that corrected the issue we are discussing. Assuming your actions speak louder than words, it would appear the "listas=" setting in talk page banners needs to align with the DEFAULTSORT setting for an article. The changes made are consistent with the guidelines for WP:NAMESORT if an article title uses a stage name, pseudonym or nickname that does not use a person's surname. While the Manual of Style comprehensively deals with how a person's names should be dealt with in the content of an article, it doesn't deal with how those article titles should be sorted. So I am still somewhat mystified at how the sorting decision is made when dealing with stage names, though I think I am getting closer to the truth. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 12:33, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't recall ever deliberately specifying for this talk page to be sorted in this way. It must have been done automatically when adding a WikiProject template. Robofish (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2022 (UTC)