Talk:The Wall/Archive 3

there's other cover art of The Wall with "Pink Floyd - The Wall" written at it, you know

Can we add it as alternative cover?? --82.139.5.13 (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC) Google "the wall" or "pink floyd the wall" and on pictures section you can find it --82.139.5.13 (talk) 15:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

As it would be a non-free image I doubt a justification could be found for including something so similar to the image already used. Parrot of Doom 16:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Nick Mason: no drums?

I find it hard to believe that Nick Mason didn't play any drums on the record, since he was and is the DRUMMER in the band. Couple that with the fact that his Wikipedia page says he has played drums on every album (there's also a specific source for this on the page). Does anybody know why he isn't credited with drums on this page? Akdrummer75 (talk) 05:33, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

You are aware, are you not, that a drum is a percussion instrument? Parrot of Doom 11:14, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

If a person plays the drums, then they are credited with the drums (drum kit). This is on every Wikipedia page for albums. Things that are considered percussive are bongos, congas, maracas, etc. You don't just say "percussion" for every drummer. That doesn't make any sense. It helps to be specific. Akdrummer75 (talk) 08:09, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

It makes perfect sense to me, but then again I understand what a percussive instrument is. Parrot of Doom 08:39, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

But it doesn't to MOST PEOPLE. I also understand what a percussive instrument is, I'm a drummer for pete's sake. You're being ignorant, and a prick too. You would learn from being nice to people when they're just trying to help. MOST PEOPLE don't think of drums when they see "percussion". That is why, like I said, every Wikipedia album page credits the drummer with "drums", specifically, "drum kit", not just "percussion". Akdrummer75 (talk) 08:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The only thing I've learnt about this discussion is that I'm arguing with someone who thinks that by trying to insult me, his view will be given more credence. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Good day. Parrot of Doom 09:27, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, you are a prick. You're being rude. And you are ignorant, because you assume that everybody knows everything about musical instruments. So, I'm not insulting you, I'm just making true statements. But whatever, I can see discussing this with you is pointless. Akdrummer75 (talk) 00:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

As a musician myself, I tend to agree with Akdrummer75. If I was looking for a percussionist, on say craigslist, I would get responses from congo, bongo, djembe (hand drums), and maybe timbale players. If I wanted someone who played a proper drum kit, I would make sure the ad was clear I was seeking a drummer. I've played in bands where we had both, and not all percussionists can play a drum kit, nor kit players hand drums. For one poor example, Roger has played some percussion instruments, such as a gong, but to my knowledge he cannot hold a beat on a drum kit. — GabeMc (talk) 00:40, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, those are good examples. Thank you for agreeing with me. Akdrummer75 (talk) 00:54, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Pink's full name

Does anyone have a suitable source that gives Pink's full name, i.e. Pink Floyd? If you listen to the tracks, you can hear it, but is it ever quoted in a source? Lyrics pages won't count: In The Flesh, "Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel" and Young Lust, "Yes, a collect call for Mrs. Floyd from Mr. Floyd".--ML5 (talk) 12:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Untitled

"deals largely" ..."the album is a rock opera that centres on Pink"..."Pink's life experiences".... Paragraph is very poorly written and imposes subsequent paradigms not relevant to the actual album — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.48.76.59 (talk) 01:09, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The real Wall

Does anybody think it't be worth mentioning that the inner artwork for this album (i.e. the broken wall with the hammer and judge behind) has been painted on to the Berlin Wall? And if so, where would that information go? Thanks. Middle Eye 512 (talk) 14:33, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Most likely in the article on the Berlin Wall. Parrot of Doom 14:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

typo?

Is this a typo:

"Hidden behind his wall, Pink's crisis escalates, culminating in a hallucinatory on-stage performance where he believes that he is a fascist dictator performing at concerts similar to Neo-Nazi rallies, at which he sets men on fans he considers unworthy."

Sets men on fans? Huh?

the genre?!

I think that hard rock and art rock should be listed into infobox as geners!There are a lot more hard rock song than progressive rock songs!

Kurt Loder review = favourable?

Kurt Loder's Rolling Stone review is apparently favourable, according to the article ... yet it gives the album a star rating of "not rated", while Loder says:

"The Wall leaps to life with a relentless lyrical rage that's clearly genuine and, in its painstaking particularity, ultimately horrifying ... hardly the hallmark of a hit album ..."

and ends with:

"Even Floydstarved devotees may not be sucked into The Wall's relatively flat aural ambiance on first hearing. But when they finally are — and then get a good look at that forbidding lyrical landscape — they may wonder which way is out real fast."

There are one or two positive notes, but on the whole it is hardly "favourable". Chaosdruid (talk) 21:39, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

"Usual" encores during the In The Flesh tour.

Our article previously stated:

He was not the only band member who felt disaffected at the show, as guitarist David Gilmour refused to perform the band's usual twelve-bar blues encore.

According to Nicholas Schaffner's appendix, "A Collection of Great Set Lists" in his oft-cited and seemingly reliable Saucerful of Secrets: The Pink Floyd Odyssey, the usual encores during this tour were "Money" and "Us and Them" (and on one occasion, "Careful With That Axe Eugene"). Pink Floyd, during this era of their careers, did not perform 12-bar blues jams at all, let alone as a "usual" encore. This jam, on the night of the spitting incident, was a one-off. So I edited the article, citing the Schaffner book, to read:

He was not the only band member who felt disaffected at the show, as guitarist David Gilmour refused to perform the band's usual encores ("Money" and "Us and Them"), leaving the rest of the band, with Snowy White, to improvise a slow, sad twelve-bar blues, which Waters described as "some music to go home to".

I guess I didn't cite the inline citations quite correctly, because I couldn't figure it out.

What's REALLY bothering me is, I KNOW I have fixed this misinformation before. Maybe in a different article. This edit of mine must ABSOLUTELY NOT be reverted. Anyone claiming Pink Floyd did a blues jam more than once during the In The Flesh will have to prove it. I don't have to prove a negative proposition (that they did not have a "usual" blues jam on this tour), but anyone claiming a blues jam happened more than once on this tour, much less "usually", must have a reputable source that says so.

--Ben Culture (talk) 06:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

False Information Regarding Where The Wall Was Recorded

I own what was once Producer's Workshop. I know Bob Ezrin, Brian Christian and many other names you might find on the record sleeve of The Wall. Pink Floyd only spent 4 days at Cherokee Studios. Everything else was done at Producers Workshop while they were in Los Angeles for 3 months finishing. The string arrangements were done at CBS New York and the stuff they did in France and the UK before coming to LA of course. But there are several very false statements in the current article regarding The Village and Cherokee Studios. The Wall was done at Producer's Workshop. All of the overdubs and mixing as well. And the mastering was done at The Mastering Lab which was in the same building as Producers Workshop.

Here's an article outlining the studio schedule for Pink Floyd : http://www.brain-damage.co.uk/the-wall/the-wall-recording-and-mastering-sessions-in-detail.html

As you can see, they were only in Cherokee for 3 days. Sept 6th- Sept 8th.

From Sept 12th until Nov 14th, Pink Floyd was at Producers Workshop.

You can also see in this interview with James Guthrie (the mixer and engineer of The Wall) that Pink Floyd was at Producers Workshop. There's no mention of Cherokee.

The Glenn Povey book cited in the article is completely false and is probably hearsay.

I own the studio and am trying to protect its heritage. I just want to know how to officially change these things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamburg58 (talk • contribs) 06:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Until your claims can be confirmed by a reliable source I'm afraid they cannot be integrated into this article. Parrot of Doom 11:58, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The album jacket only says it was recorded at Superbear, Miravel, CBS and Producers Workshop. From the article "Canadian Producer Steers Pink Floyd To 'The Wall'" (Billboard December 1, 1979: 27) "Ezrin says 'The Wall' was started last December at Super Bear Studio in France, with additional recording done at Chateau Miravel in the same country. Final mixes were completed on the double album at Producers Workshop in Los Angeles using two sound rooms and some 70 to 80 'information bits' or tracks, mixed down to conventional two-track stereo." I don't know if brain-damage.co.uk can be considered a reliable source or not but its information apparently comes from studio log sheets and is very precise, enough so to cast doubt on the account in Povey's book. Just because the book meets the standard for a reliable source doesn't guarantee everything in it is accurate, see Verifiability, not truth#"If it's written in a book, it must be true!". In Povey's other book, Pink Floyd: In the Flesh, it says "recording began at the Superbear studios in France, followed by CBS in New York and finally, for the largest part, the Producers Workshop in Los Angeles." Piriczki (talk) 15:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The one thing the Floyd biographies have in common is that they all say different things about various events. I'll try and take a look at this matter in more detail, I'm just busy with real life stuff at the moment. Parrot of Doom 16:27, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Clarity, Consistency, & Accuracy

I've a dispute with Parrot, and possibly with Friginator, who disagree with me about the inclusion of a sentence that is in the 3rd paragraph of the article's intro. Before I edited it the paragraph read:

The Wall features a notably harsher and more theatrical style than Pink Floyd's previous releases. Keyboardist Richard Wright left the band during the album's production but remained as a salaried musician, performing with Pink Floyd during The Wall Tour. Commercially successful upon its release, the album was one of the best selling of 1980, and as of 1999, it had sold over 23 million RIAA certified units (11.5 million albums) in the United States. Rolling Stone magazine placed The Wall at number 87 on its list of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time.

Here is the same paragraph with my edit:

The Wall features a notably harsher and more theatrical style than Pink Floyd's previous releases. Commercially successful upon its release, the album was one of the best selling of 1980, and as of 1999, it had sold over 23 million RIAA certified units (11.5 million albums) in the United States. Rolling Stone magazine placed The Wall at number 87 on its list of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time.

My contention with the inclusion of Richard Wright's departure being mentioned there is (1) it topically out of place with the rest of the paragraph, thus interrupting otherwise clear prose, and (2) it seems misleading and potentially contradictory with its vagueness, unlike the more complete, nuanced info about Wright's departure in the Recording section. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_wall#Recording)

What if the disputed sentence stated that Wright was "fired" instead of "left?" Would that be wrong? I mean, Waters' ultimatum by nearly all accounts was (to roughly paraphrase), "Tell Wright that he's either out of Pink Floyd or I'm taking m̶y̶ ̶b̶a̶l̶l̶ The Wall and going home!" That seems more "fired" than simply an unqualified "left." To be clear, I absolutely do not think that we should replace "left" with "fired"; I'm just trying to make a point of clarity. The premature mention of the departure here obfuscates the reported reality. Compare the disputed sentence with the more exhaustive information under the Recording section for yourself. Is the sentence in the intro of the 3rd paragraph that only mentions that Wright simply "left" an accurate, intellectually honest description with what Mason, Blake, and others say happened, that Waters insisted Wright leave or there would be no The Wall? Moreover, why interrupt the paragraph's main idea, which is simply about The Wall's general album & tour info, with incomplete information about one specific member, the late, great Richard Wright?

Here is the paragraph under the Recording section with the more complete information about Wright's departure:

Accounts of Wright's subsequent departure from the band differ. In his autobiography, Inside Out, Mason says that Waters called O'Rourke, who was travelling to the US on the QE2, and told him to have Wright out of the band by the time Waters arrived in LA to mix the album. In another version recorded by a later historian of the band, Waters called O'Rourke and asked him to tell Wright about the new recording arrangements, to which Wright allegedly responded "Tell Roger to fuck off …". Wright disagreed with this recollection, stating that the band had agreed to record only through the spring and early summer, and that he had no idea they were so far behind schedule. Mason later wrote that Waters was "stunned and furious", and felt that Wright was not doing enough to help complete the album. Gilmour was on holiday in Dublin when he learnt of Waters's ultimatum, and tried to calm the situation. He later spoke with Wright and gave him his support, but reminded him about his minimal contribution to the album. Waters, however, insisted that Wright leave, else he would refuse to release The Wall. Several days later, worried about their financial situation, and the failing interpersonal relationships within the band, Wright quit. News of his departure was kept from the music press. Although his name did not appear anywhere on the original album, he was employed as a session musician on the band's subsequent The Wall tour.

I did not think that my edit would be controversial. The correct information is still in the article under the Recording section and the intro reads a helluva lot better while not confusing the reader before the Wright departure information in the Recording section. Am I splitting hairs? Tell me why I'm wrong. I welcome any and all constructive criticisms. Thank you for your time and consideration. --RushRhees (talk) 07:13, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources that contradict what this article says then please present them. The lead section is just a condensed version of the article but if you think that in this context, mentioning Wright's departure (he left, he wasn't fired) is somehow trivial and confuses our readers, then my only reply is that you simply do not understand what a lead section is for. Parrot of Doom 07:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I see that you changed it back to include the RW mention in the lead about a half hour ago. I thought that I had already reverted the paragraph back to your preferred wording. My bad. My contention was that saying RW simply "left," without qualifying that with a mention of Waters' ultimatum -- which he gave and there is no dispute about that, as you can see in the footnotes/links in the Recording section -- seems misleading. I've never seen shrewd ultimatums as a choice. I guess it's just semantics. Okay, enough for real this time. I am gone. Shine on. --RushRhees (talk) 09:10, 21 March 2014 (UTC)--RushRhees (talk) 09:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Track listing is done wrong

The track listing shown here is wrong. The LP has 4 sides not two and these listings are not correct for the album sides. This is in fact a correct track listing for the 2-disc CD set but that is not what should be shown as the primary listing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.130.149.50 (talk) 16:48, 4 October 2021 (UTC)