Talk:Teemu Selänne/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Records as a European

Selanne holds the European record for most goals in a season, as often cited Alex Mogilny is from Khabarovsk in the Asian Russian far east. Unless someone can cite that Khabarovsk is not in Asia, the record should read "Most goals by a non-North American", or the European record should stand alone as Selanne's. Please do not revert without checking a map of Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbrynen (talk • contribs) 04:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

References

Exactly how an article can be edited exactly 450 times (and have such an active talk page), and yet have not one inline citation, I cannot fathom. When I was assessing the article, I was tempted to give it a B-class, but I just can't give it that rating when it doesn't have one, single verified statement. Someone has a ton of referencing to do to get it up to B-class, let alone GA or FA status.

Just a random observation from an uninvolved spectator. Noble Story 11:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Teemu

Hopefully Teemu will come back to the NHL if and when it does start playing again. It would be a shame to end such an illustrious career like he has had with last seasons disappointments.

Teemu has had some major problems with his leg lately. It's something that has affected his game for a couple of years now, but right now the situation doesn't look so good. There is some speculation whether he'll be able to play at all anymore, because of his recent injury.

Revert on 4.9.05

Removing links to articles that have not yet been written is not exactly helpful editing, so I reverted the edit that removed them. Also, the league is not called "Finnish Mestis"; the name of the league is Mestis, but it is played in Finland. -Elrith 16:26, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Cup contenders?

I don't recall the Winnipeg Jets ever being "a threat for Stanley Cup contention" while Selänne played for them, as the article states. -J21

I just looked up the Jets' season and playoff stats/standings during Teemu's time there, and I agree... they didn't win the division (or come close to it) and they never made it past the first round. Forget about being CUP contenders... --Buchanan-Hermit 07:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Selänne quitting?

After today's match against Russia, Selänne said that "I've played over a thousand games in NHL, and have always wished that I would be able to end my career in the olympics finals." ("Olen pelannut yli tuhat peliä NHL:ssä ja olen aina toivonut, että saisin päättää urani olympiafinaaliin"). Should his hints about quitting be mentioned in the article. I find it quite surprising that the olympics' best player would be quitting, but well, he's almost 40 years... --HJV 23:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

He might be talking about his Olympic or international career. I would see no reason why he would be retiring from the NHL with the way things are going in Anaheim and him having a revival season. He is only 35 years old, and has a lot of good years ahead of him.

Croat Canuck

03:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

He definitely "quit" while he played for the Colorado Avalanche. Jmlk17 05:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

without discussion

without discussion, this article was protected from being moved.

First off, his name in English is Selanne and this is the English section of wikipedia. Secondly, the orginal author used the English spelling for the article. Basically the administrator decided that his pov was the right one and protected this page from going back to the original author's title. As far as i know it here on wikipedia, status quo is to remain until the dispute is resolved. The admin who move protected this page abused his powers and should have his admin powers taken away. Masterhatch 04:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the point of insisting on the wrong spellings of people's names just because some English speakers have a phobia against all accent marks. If "the English section of Wikipedia" refuses to use accent marks, how come it uses them everywhere except ice hockey? Why is Sauli Niinistö not at Sauli Niinisto? Why is Anneli Jäätteenmäki not at Anneli Jaatteenmaki? What makes ice hockey players so special? If you wish, you may initiate a RfC on me. I know I will have some supporters, and some opponents. JIP | Talk 07:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

what happened to the article history? it's gone for before March 1, 2006

This is the earliest edit in the main article's history:

   * 20:25, 1 March 2006 Masterhatch (moved Teemu Selänne to Teemu Selanne)

What happened to earlier ones? Why was the history trashed? Can it be retrieved? By the way, I am opposed to moving ice hockey player pages from their correct spellling using diacritics to Anglicized spellings that leave off diacritics. Hockey players should not be treated differently from other foreign people on English Wikipedia -- Mareklug ^talk 12:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The edit history should be at Teemu Selanne. When User:Masterhatch decided to push his Anglo-Saxic POV on foreign names again, and damn the correctness, the user who reverted him apparently used a copy-and-paste move instead of a real move. JIP | Talk 20:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not my "anglo saxic pov", it is just the way the vast majority of english publications do it. So, try looking at yourself in the mirror and stop pushing non english characters and spellings into the English language. Just because you think English is wrong to omit the non-english characters doesn't change the fact that english does change the spellings. Wikipedia is suposed to represent the English language in its current use, not how people feel that English should or shouldn't be. Wikipedia is not here to try to change the English language. If you are not happy with the way english does things, take up your fight elsewhere. Masterhatch 22:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

You're English Wikipedia-wrong on this issue, Masterhatch. Everywhere you look on English wiki, foreign persons' names which use Latin with diacritics are rendered on pages titled likewise. Convince yourself of that by just looking around. This is true of musicians, politicians, soccer players, writers, and hockey players. So don't go selectively and without consensus altering that reality. Please stop your moves to incorrect spellings. You are being a bad wiki editor, making an exception in a practice that is otherwise widely adopted on English Wikipedia. This particular page should be moved back to Teemu Selänne so that the edit history gets reunited with the least amount of lossage. I hope you see the need for that. Then, the redirect of Teemu Selanne will take care of English alphabet uses like it always did. The vast majority of the English media you write about are not the English Wikipedia, which as a Unicode-supporting online encyclopedia is the one place where accurate renditions of foreign names can be counted on. Please desist. -- Mareklug ^talk 23:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the rest of English wikipedia is wrong and not following its own guide lines? The MoS is clear that the most common form in English is to be used for wiki articles. Guess what!!! the most common form in English does not include diacritics!!! by adding the diacritics to English wiki article titles, it is going against the MoS. But whatever. You aren't a native speaker of English and neither is JIP. And i just don't care anymore. Really think about it, though: Wikipedia is here to reflect the current English language, not change it nor bend it to the way people think it should be. Good bye and good luck. Masterhatch 23:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need to spell things incorrectly if we know how to spell them correctly? If the mass media is ignorant, and wants to misspell things, let them. Wikipedia hasn't followed them in this, and I think articles on hockey players shouldn't be an exception. Why do you think there's this "Insert" box 5cm below the editing box with all kinds of characters in it? Could the characters be there so that people use them, or do you think they are just a decoration? I mean, would they put an insert character box, if we're not supposed to use it... (I still support having redirects from the anglicized spelling to the article, to avoid people having to use search too often, though). --HJV 00:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not spelling them incorrectly; it is spelling them in English. Even the article on Diacritics says "Modern English does not have diacritics." Native English speakers for the most part have no idea what diacritics mean or how they are to be pronounced; therefore using them in English Wikipedia simply makes it harder to read for English people. We do not spell Chinese people's names in Mandarin or Russian people's names with the cyrillic alphabet, though it might be said that those are the "correct" ways to spell them. Some of the reasons that "there's this "Insert" box 5cm below the editing box with all kinds of characters in it" are that 1) it is likely easier to have all languages of wikipedia run in the same framework, 2) some articles are linguistic in nature and will refer to foreign alphabets (i.e. someone might do a search for the Greek alphabet and actually want to know what the letters are), and 3) many foreign-language characters are used in English as scientific terms (eg. 'Å' often denotes the Angstrom, often used to measure wavelengths, 'θ' is commonly used as a variable to represent an angle of rotation, and 'Ω' is used both to represent electrical resistance in Ohms, and angular velocity in radians/sec). There are many reasons the characters are there - certainly to be used - but they are not English characters so it makes no sense to use them in the writing of words and names in English articles.--John Connor 07:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 22:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested Move

I am requesting that this article be moved from Teemu Selänne to Teemu Selanne because the most common way of spelling it in English is Teemu Selanne and not Teemu Selänne. My requested move is backed up by:

Wikipedia:Naming conventions "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) "If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works. This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources."
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics) "Diacritics should only be used in an article's title, if it can be shown that the word is routinely used in that way, with diacritics, in common usage. This means in reliable English sources, such as encyclopedias, dictionaries, or articles in major English-language newspapers." and "If the word is routinely listed in reliable English sources without diacritics, then the Wikipedia article should follow that method for the article title, though the diacritics version should be given in the initial paragraph of the article as suggested in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)." and "If it is not clear what "common usage" is, then the general Wikipedia guideline is to avoid use of diacritics in article titles."
Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format#Use of diacritics and non-English characters

A quick google search, minus wikipedia, english only websites, clearly reveals that Teemu Selanne is the most common way to refer to this article in English [1]

nhl.com
espn
hockeydb.com
legends of hockey
tsn.ca
nhlpa note: the website title does not include diacritics, but the main body does, which follows Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics) to a tee (meaning the article title on wikipedia would be sans diacritics also)
yahoo sports
SI
a fan page
salanne.us

A quick look at the next ten on google reveals only one site that uses diacritics in the title imdb It is very clear that Teemu Selanne is the most common way to spell his name in English. His hockey sweater spells it without the diacritics and so do English newspapers and most reference books about hockey. It is clear that this article needs to be moved. Masterhatch 18:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Also from WP:NAME: "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists." Doogie2K (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

What this is and is not

This is not a survey encompassing all of wikipeida. This is not a survey encompassing all of hockey wikipedia. The outcome of this survey will only affect this article, Teemu Selanne. If you are interested in discussing whether or not wikipedia should use diacritics as a whole in article titles, then go here Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics). This survey is only regarding whether this article title should be Teemu Selänne or Teemu Selanne. Masterhatch 00:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Before you vote

Before you vote, ask yourself a few simple questions.

Are the current wikipedia policies relevant here? If so, are they acceptable policies?
Are the current wikipedia guidelines relevant here? If so, are they acceptable guidelines?
What is the most common form of this article title in English? This policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions is clear that the most common English form be used for the title of an article.
What is the most easily recognisable title to English speakers? Is it Selanne or Selänne? Again, according to that same policy, the most recognisable form to English speakers must be used for the title.
Which is easier to link to the article, Selanne or Selänne? Consider that most people don't have ä on their keboards, so linking using ä won't be "...easy and second nature."
A quote from that very naming policy: "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." So, again, ask yourself, which is the more common spelling in English, Selanne or Selänne? To me, at least, that policy suggests that the English spelling be the title with the native spelling occuring in the first line of the first paragraph.

Before you vote, remove any personal point of view you may have on the matter. Vote keeping wikipedia policies and guidelines in mind. If you have a problem with certain policies and guidelines, there are talk pages to visit and voice your opinion. Masterhatch 00:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Support Masterhatch 18:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support --Skudrafan1 18:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support BoojiBoy 18:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support ccwaters 19:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support -- JamesTeterenko 19:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. The "most common usage" in external sources is the version without diacritics, and the Wikipedia article title should reflect that. --Elonka 19:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support -- Even his own autograph lacks the diacritics. Aottley 19:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
OPPOSE STRONGLY -- Unless he has changed his name recently, he is still Teemu Selänne, with diacritics. In Finnish, the letter ä is not letter a with two funny dots -- it's altogether different letter. Most common usage is valid if the versions are right, but we definitely should not misspell names (sans transliteration). If your keypad lacks ä there's no problem since you can use the redirect. --JyriL ^talk 20:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. English-language encyclopedias do use diacritics. If I look up Antonín Dvořák in Grove Music Online, his article is titled "Dvořák, Antonín (Leopold)". If I look up Dag Hammarskjöld in the Encyclopedia Britannica (online), the article is titled "Hammarskjöld, Dag". There is no reason for Wikipedia to be sloppy about this, and no reason to apply different standards for hockey players. u p p l a n d 21:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose I strongly oppose this. His name get pronounsed diffrenly when using the english way. There should atleast be said how it's pronounsed if the ä goes. --Krm500 23:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. Although I understand the Finnish point of view that the letters are in fact different, this is the English-language Wikipedia and the rule is most common name in English. The Finnish spelling can be in the article, but the title should be how he is known in English, even if it's a "mistranslation". --Dhartung | Talk 07:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose make redirects without special diacritics. Lapinmies 11:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Support If the Finnish "ä" is truly different from the regular Latin character "a", isn't that the same as using Cyrillic letters to spell Russian names? Just a thought. Doogie2K (talk) 23:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- Addendum Furthermore, it's not like we can't have the main article be called "Teemu Selanne" and then have the first sentence begin "Teemu Selanne (fi: Teemu Selänne)...". In fact, I think that's the current WP:HOCKEY guideline. Doogie2K (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
  - It is just a guideline and many people object it. Lapinmies 17:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
    - I object [to] your shoving non-English spellings down my throat. Funny how you can do that, yet no other language Wikipedia grants the same "courtesy" to English names. See Уильям Шекспир and Virginia Woolfová, which illustrate my point rather nicely. Doogie2K (talk) 00:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose It seems less informative to leave the diacritics out. Stefán Ingi 12:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I already made this comment on Marian Gaborik, but how is this "less informative"? Pretty damned thin. Doogie2K (talk) 19:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
  In general on Wikipedia, living people are referred to by their name, written in the Latin alphabet. The name of this Finnish person is Teemu Selänne so I would expect that to be used, not just mentioned in parenthesis. Stefán Ingi 20:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
  - - However, people on English Wikipedia with foreign names are usually transliterated into English. What's the distinction here? Doogie2K (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Strong oppose. The fact that the diacritics are often dropped for technical limitations or laziness does not make spelling without them right. And that WP:HOCKEY guideline cannot be binding for the rest of Wikipedia (in fact, I think it pretty much contravenes it). Duja 12:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Contravenes how? Do explain. English Wikipedia, English spelling. Finnish wikipedia, Finnish spelling. And so forth. Sounds fair to me.
- Also, you call it "laziness." You say technical limitations aren't an excuse. Sounds pretty damned selfish and non-NPoV to me. Doogie2K (talk) 19:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
  - ...yeah, except that this entire endless debate is about what constitutes English spelling. I (and a number of people) disagree it consists of only ASCII, as you seem to maintain. I don't get your not-so-nice remarks about "pretty damned selfish"? In answer: if you browse through e.g. List of Finnish people (and there are lists of people with far more "non-English" names like List of Poles) you will see how their names are spelled and how the articles are named. An attempt to impose a different convention on WP:HOCKEY just because they played in NHL for a period might be also referred to as "pretty damned selfish". Would you yourself browse through all those lists in a crusade to rename them according to the perceived "English spelling"? Yes, I maintain that technical limitations from the past, laziness and/or ignorance are not an excuse for a Wikipedia not to title the article according to the person's real name. And no, the argument that the correct diacritics should not be present just because he was often referred to without them in English-language media is not convincing for me. YMMV. Duja 07:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
    - Did I ever say that it was special because they're hockey players? No, our feeling is that all proper names should be spelled with English characters only (ASCII or not) with native spellings informatively provided at the beginning of the article unless an overwhelming amount of English print media provides said diacritics, in accordance with WP:NAME. This isn't an issue for Russian, Japanese, or Sanskrit, and I fail to see the distinction simply because these characters look like English ones with markings above them. You say they're separate characters? That only reinforces our point.
      And yes, it is selfish to expect the rest of the English-speaking world to conform to your ideal of how foreign characters should be handled, especially since most English-speaking users do not have the technical ability to handle them. This is not laziness on their part; it is a limitation of the technology available. You have an issue with it? Bitch at Microsoft, Logitech, and IBM, not us. Besides, we don't include Cyrillic characters that we can't adequately account for (ы springs to mind) in our Russian transliterations, so why should we include Czech or Finnish characters that we allegedly can't adequately account for in our transliterations of these languages?
      I will say it one more time. This is English Wikipedia. Names should be completely transliterated into English. We transliterate Cyrillic and Kanji into English. Therefore, I see no reason why we should not transliterate Czech and Finnish "separate characters" into English. Would you like me to start taking diacritics out of Czech or Finnish Wikipedia? Would you like me to start moving Russian-name articles into Cyrillic-titled article spaces? I'll do it, and we'll see just how quickly I get slapped down for vandalism/shit-stirring. It's the same damned thing you're suggesting, yet magically, the rules don't apply to you because...the characters look similar enough? Funny, that. Doogie2K (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
    - Besides, why is it that CS Wikipedia can literally change the spelling of a famous English speaker's name, but we can't "change the spelling" of a famous (insert nationality) simply by transliterating? Doogie2K (talk) 17:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
      - Because if you take this kind of approach to transliterating, we can just as well decide to transliterate Mario Lemieux as Major Major and start a vote and debate. There are rules to transliterating just like there are to grammar and spelling, and "transliterating" Selänne to Selanne is just as acceptable as "transliterating" Mario Lemieux to Mark Good. Elrith 15:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
        Except that's not a transliteration; that's a translation. Thanks for coming out, though. Doogie2K (talk) 17:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
      - It's considered good etiquette to keep civil in Wikipedia debates. Also, this is precisely my point. Teemu Selanne is not a transliteration any more than Mark Good is. Elrith 18:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
        That mark good example is horrible because we aren't talking about translating. We are talking about the most common spelling in English. Obviously mark good is far from the most common spelling in English while Teemu Selanne is by far the most common spelling in English. I have never seen Mario's name written that way in a serious publication (although i have seen it written that way in a joking sense with writers trying to be "cute"). For the vast majority of English publications regarding Teemu, only a small handful use "those two funny dots". That is what we are talking about here: most common in English publications. I am truly sorry that you ahve a problem with the way the English language deals with your precious spellings. Masterhatch 02:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
        
        Then clearly, you don't understand English that well, or you'd have understood the difference between the definitions I provided for you. Transliteration deals with characters, translation deals with words. Which is which, Elrith? Doogie2K (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. The only webpage linked to in the article spells his name with 'ä'. Haukur 11:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- comment I added another one for you without diacritics. Also, look at the list above. Masterhatch 02:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  - I also checked Google Books and found lots of references to him - all without the diacritical mark. That makes it reasonable to omit it on Wikipedia but on balance I'd still prefer to include it in line with Uppland's arguments. It's not a big deal either way. Haukur 22:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
    - So, since you now see that the spelling "Teemu Selanne" is far more common than "Teemu Selänne" in English publications, would you be willing to change your vote to follow the basic of wikipedia policies that states "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." and "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form."? or even a well respected guideline that states "If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works."? Masterhatch 16:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. There are no software or display problems which could be used to argue against the correct name, which includes "ä". —Nightstallion (?) 13:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Isn't that a rather ignorant and presumptuous statement (to say nothing of condescending)? How do you know? On what basis can you justify such a statement? Doogie2K (talk) 23:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. Man, I said I wouldn't wade into this again. Glancing at Encarta, Jagr doesn't have a single diacritic mark in the article. Antonin D. does. This is because IN ENGLISH (and I hate to use bold here, but I need to identify the reasoning), the most common form of Jagr's name is J-A-G-R. The most common form of Antonín Dvořák's name is Antonín Dvořák. Applying WP:NAME, which is a WP:POLICY, we have Use English words - Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form. This, to me, is the crux of the matter. The POLICY as listed states "Use English unless the native form is more common," thus Dvorak, Zurich, and Dag Hammarskjöld are all in their native spellings. They're most commonly used in their native spellings. Hockey players, however...are transliterated. Many more people are, too. Accuracy is one thing. Rampant nationalism is another. RasputinAXP c 04:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Ignoring diacritics doesn't make an English name. Oruj 17:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Support, keep Wikipedia looking professional, use standard English. Christopher Parham (talk) 01:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Strong Oppose. His name is not "Teemu Selanne". There are no reasons to move it, a redirect here does fine. ShaunES 01:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC).
Oppose per my comment below. If someone's name is spelled with diacritic marks, then there are redirects to the diacritic name from the English name. The WikiProject Hockey proposal is in direct opposition to the diacritic mark proposal, both of which are equally useful. However, the mass moving that I had to do makes me more on the side of the diacritic-marked side of the argument. Ryūlóng 01:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- Addendum http://www.iihf.com/CARDS/FINLAND/TEEMU_SELAENNE.HTM Ryūlóng 01:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  - The IIHF is one source, and one that must take into consideration the greatest number fo countries. I can give you about fifty others, if you've got an hour, that focus primarily on the English-speaking world. You know, the people targeted by English Wikipedia? Doogie2K (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment I think you need to reread the proposals. They are not in direct oppostion to each other. They actually are saying the same thing: if the most common form in English uses diacritics, then diacritics are to be kept and if the most common form in English drops the diacritics, then the diacritics are dropped. Try reading a little closer. Masterhatch 05:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

What is his actual, full, legal name? Teemu Selanne? No? Then why are we trying to rename it? Because everyone else doesn't use his real name? Bugger that. ShaunES 05:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC).

Whatever his full legal name is should be mentioned in the first line of the first paragraph. Look, we aren't trying to rename anyone. We are just trying to stick to wiki policy (Wikipedia:Naming convention) that is clear that the most common English name be used. The most common English name for Selanne doesn't include diacritics. For some people, in English, it does. For those people (and places), the diacritics should be kept in wiki article titles. I am trying to remove diacritics from titles,i am just trying to keep it simple and follow policies and common sense. If most English publications drop diacritics, then it is against wikipolicy to add them. If most English publications include diacritics, then it is wikipolicy to keep them. Masterhatch 05:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

We are trying to rename someone though. If his name is one thing, and it's redirecting to the neutered version, you're changing its meaning. I don't see why we can't be satisfied with the redirect as it is. ShaunES 06:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC).

So it's also renaming me to represent my name as Джейсон Робертсон? Fascinating. I guess the Czechs also "renamed" Virgina Woolf in the article I linked above, too? Doogie2K (talk) 17:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought I could stay away from this, but it appears that I cannot. There is a difference between transliterating a person's name into another language that does not use the same alphabet (Cyrillic, Japanese, Chinese, etc.) and changing a person's name into another language that uses the same alphabet (English, Spanish, Finnish, Dutch, German). Teemu Selänne's name is spelled in the Roman alphabet in his language of origin. Changing "Selänne" to "Selanne" based on two proposals that have not been accepted. If you want to go talk about not using diacritics in article titles, go try moving "Pokémon" to "Pokemon" and see what happens, or "café" to "cafe". If anything, there should be a proposal somewhere that diacritics should be used in titles that are loan words, or even loan names. Ryūlóng 02:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should have stayed out of it. You are still not actually reading the discussions. café and Pokémon should stay where they are. Why? because that is the most common way to spell those in English!!! That is what this is all about: the most common way to spell things in English. Masterhatch 03:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I take that back about café being the most common way to spell that name in English. but Pokémon is right where it should be. Masterhatch 03:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

As for cafe or café, i feel that café should be the title of the article here on wikipedia, even though it is debatable as to whether it is the most common spelling or not. the difference with cafe and teemu is that cafe and café are both very widely used in English and it is not at all uncommon to see café in newspapers, reference books, magazines, leaflets, encyclopaedias, billboards, and the like. Teemu Selänne is not commonly found in said English publications but Selanne is. Masterhatch 03:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Read it again, Ryulong. You may have noticed I also mentioned a Czech article, which does not use Cyrillic. Doogie2K (talk) 20:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Support. – Axman (☏) 10:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose His actual, real name is Teemu Selänne. That's what this page should be. There are rules governing the transliteration of Finnish names into English, and they are clear: Finnish names are not to be transliterated. Selanne is not an acceptable spelling. Elrith 15:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- Link? Doogie2K (talk) 17:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  - I've worked as a professional Finnish and English translator, and it isn't acceptable to omit diacritics from Finnish or Scandinavian names when translating. However, you'll find that the current page is Teemu Selänne and this proposal wants to change it to Teemu Selanne, so I think the burden of proof is quite the other way around. I'm not at all convinced that an exception should be made to the accepted rules of Finnish-English translation because some Wikipedia users object to "foreign spellings". Elrith 18:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
    - You don't get it. We, here on wikipedia aren't trying ot change anyone's name! We are simply following the policy that states "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." It is quite obvious that the most common spelling of his name in English publications does not include diacritics. If, by chance, the most common spelling in English publications did include diacritics (as there are many people that do fit this), then diacritics should be included in the article title! The burdon of proof is on you, not me, to show that the most common spelling in English includes diacritics. If you can show me that, i would have no problem with this article keeping the diacritics. Masterhatch 02:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
    - You are no more a reputable source than I am. You want to pull that card, you'd better back it up with sources. Also, this is not considerng how things are done in Finland; they don't speak much English there, from what I understand. I'm talking about how things are done in Canada, the US, Great Britain, Austrailia, New Zealand, and every other country with English as a significant language, because that is our consitutency at English Wikipedia. Doogie2K (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
      - Not a crucial point for this discussion but my understanding has always been that the English Wikipedia is written for all people who can read English - whether they are native speakers of the language or not. If the intended audience was only native speakers of English then I don't think I'd want to contribute here. Haukur 22:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
        I misstated my point. What I was trying to say is that it should be written in the style of a native English speaker, since, as I understand things, it is meant to represent the English-speaking world. Obviously, anyone who understands the language is welcome to read and contribute, and I doubt anyone would dare suggest otherwise. All I was getting at was that native English speakers never use diacritics, and they're not part of any standardized form of English that I've ever seen, which begs the question of why we would use them here. Doogie2K (talk) 01:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
        Hmm, well, that "never" is probably a bit too categorical. I live in an English-speaking country (the United Kingdom). On my way to work I see shop signs and advertisements with diacritics on them. I often see diacritics in the newspaper I read in the train and in English fiction and non-fiction books I read. The company I work for has many items with diacritics in their names in its catalogue. More relevantly there are very many English-language reference works, including encyclopedias, which do use diacritics. For someone like Thomas à Kempis or Väinämöinen the use of diacritics is dominant in printed works in English. But for this particular hockey player it seems like the diacritic-less form is much more common in printed works so you have a good case for using it here. Haukur 08:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
        Well, if a word is most commonly rendered in English with diacritics, by all means, use them. This name is most commonly rendered in English without, ergo, we spell it without. Some people (not you, you seem to get what we're saying) really need to read Wiki policy before making unilateral changes. In WP conflict resolution, if there's a dispute between two versions, the original stands until the dispute is settled. Kind of hard to do that when people keep moving articles every time you try to put them back where they started. And in any case, the most common form in English is without diacritics. Some may say this makes hockey players unique across Wikipedia. Guess what? Out of all the Finns and Czechs known to the English-speaking world, I'm willing to bet a sizable number of them play ice hockey. Doogie2K (talk) 16:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
        Maybe if you're a hockey fan :) As for the location there seems to have been a lot of back-and-forth. Can you give me a diff to the first move? Haukur 19:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Support DMighton 17:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion

comment User:Jyril, could you explain yourself when you say "misspelt"? Are you actually saying that English spellings are misspellings? If so, that is an awfully bold and POV statement of yours to say that English spellings are "misspellings". If I am understanding you correctly, you are claiming that the vast majority of English publications are littered with spelling misstakes. This is actually what got me on this horse in the first place; someone called an English spelling a misspelling and that ticked me off. English does not misspell English spellings. It is clear that the majority of English publications do not use diacritics for Selanne's name and in order to keep wikipedia NPOV, wikipedia must reflect that. If you have issues with this, go to all the reputable publications who, as you claim, are misspelling things and get them to change. If the majority of reputable English publications, both on line and off line, use those two "funny dots" above the a in Selanne's name, then wikipedia should reflect that. but as it sits, the majority of said publications don't use those funny little dots. Masterhatch 21:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I claim that Selanne is not English spelling, it's just Selänne without diacritics, and in this sense misspelling. I fully understand that most English webpages don't see necessary to use diacritics. But here on Wikipedia, we should not sacrifice accuracy to convenience, especially when there are no major technical issues. Like I said, redirects help when typing the address; English Google doesn't count diacritics: Selanne gives exactly the same results as Selänne etc. Sorry that I'm a bit sensitive on the issue, but accuracy should prevail. (PS. Thanks for not asking redirecting to Selaenne -- in many sport events 'ä' is replaced with 'ae' in names, which is ok in the case of German names, but absolutely ridiculous in the case of languages such as Finnish.) --JyriL ^talk 23:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. While you are claiming "accuracy" i am claiming most common and recognisable form in English. My claim is based on wikipedia naming conventions. Most accurate is fine and dandy, but there are dozens of articles that use the most common form as opposed to most "accurate" form, such as Republic of Korea vs. South Korea. While Republic of Korea is the official English name of the country, South Korea is used here on wikipedia because it is the most common and recognisable form in English. Same with Selänne vs. Selanne. Teemu Selänne is by far the least common form in English publications and Teemu Selanne is by far the most common. Therefore, Teemu Selanne must be used. If most English publications used Teemu Selänne, i would support that being the title here on wikipedia 100%. But that is not the case. Masterhatch 01:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line is, we're not "misspelling." We're transliterating. There's a big difference. If it's acceptable for most languages, how come it's not for the handful that use diacriticized Roman letters? Doogie2K (talk) 17:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

For the very simple reason that transliterating is governed by rules, just like other aspects of language. It is not acceptable to transliterate Finnish names in English text. Elrith 15:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Says who? You? Doogie2K (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Says I. As I said above, I've worked as a translator and am aware of the rules of translating Finnish, including proper names. The "English spelling" that Masterhatch refers to is a fiction. There is no such thing as an English spelling of Finnish names, because Finnish names are spelt exactly the same way in English as in Finnish; the idea that there is an "English spelling" of a Finnish proper name is completely his invention. He and several others have been waging a crusade against "funny little dots" for reasons I can't understand. No-one had any problem with diacritics in article names until a couple of people wrote and posted a "guideline" to Wikiproject:Ice Hockey and started making unilateral edits to remove diacritics because they had invented a Wikipedia policy that had the support of all of three people. The biggest reason this is such a non-discussion is that both the originators of these proposals, and, I notice, you, bring an attitude of nationalism to this discussion. How is it "shoving something down your throat", as you've said elsewhere, if an article spells a person's name the way it's spelled in their native language when that form is perfectly intelligible to English speakers? You've made several accusations of nationalism and NPOV on this page. I find the idea that foreign names have "funny little dots" on them that don't belong in a serious encyclopedia offensive; I think you should re-examine exactly who is being racist and NPOV. Elrith 18:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Racist? wow, that was awfully bold. There is nothing racist about this. maybe a bit nationalistic, but definately not racist. Oh, speaking of nationalistic, maybe you should examine your own thoughts and edits. Maybe, just mabye, you are trying to push your nationalistic views onto the English language and maybe, just maybe, we are trying to keep all as neutral as possible. I mean, the Wikipedia:Naming convention is very clear that the most common form in English be used, not the foreign nationalistic's form. Masterhatch 02:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations. You've just crossed the point of no return. From here on out, the conversation can only get more hostile and inflammatory, because you whipped out the "r" word. Well, I can call you racist, too, for not respecting the fact that my language -- the one I'm trying to represent your precious foreign names in -- does not come with the requisite tools to do so. It's not going to get me anywhere, but now that you've opened the door, God and Jimbo only know where this will end. Goodbye to good faith. Doogie2K (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You're both being so hypocritical it's disgusting. I only see two people here talking about having "foreign spellings" "shoved down their throats" and making disparaging remarks about other languages. And obviously it's me who's crossing lines and pushing nationalistic views. The hypocrisy is sickening. Well, the vote is over, and there still isn't a consensus. As long as you keep conducting these debates this way, there's not going to be a consensus. I'm done here. Elrith 17:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

??? Explain the hypocrisy here. I just don't see it. I have been quite clear: Use the most common spelling in English for article titles. What is so hypocritical about that? As for shoving foreign spellings down our throats, why should we on wikipedia go against the grain of most common spellings and add diacritics? When people demand that diacritics (and other non-English characters) be used for article titles when it is just not common to do so in English, that is called pushing nationalistic views. I am just keeping with what most English speaking people are familar with (as per Wikipedia:naming convention). Of course, for the cases in which the most common English spelling uses diacritics, then by all means, use them for the article title. Oh, what do you mean "...keep conducting votes this way..."? The vote was fair. The only thing it was lacking was references supporting the use of diacritics. Oh, wait, maybe if in the future you used references to back up your side of the argument, things would be resolved much smoother. the way i see it, one side (the side i am on) used references galore to support our case. Your side used none. Masterhatch 22:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The hypocrisy I'm referring to is the one over accusing me and others of pushing POV and being "nationalistic" while at the same time waging a war to rid Wikipedia of funny little dots and "foreign spellings". What kind of facts or references could I possibly present when you say that my view is "pushing nationalistic views" and ignore my arguments, as you have done ever since this debate began? I have tried to tell you that there are rules about languages and translating/transliterating them, but I sadly can't find an online reference to them. You, however, also don't have any references to support your point that diacritics should not be used. You have given Google search results that say they are not generally used, which is a different thing. Google hit counts aren't the be-all and end-all of a Wikipedia policy debate, which you should know. Is is different from ought, especially in this case. And the point is that you want to change Wikipedia, so you have to convince everyone that your changes should be adopted. You're not making much progress, and certainly haven't convinced me.

Since this is something of a closing argument for me, as this vote is over and the debate isn't going anywhere, I want to be perfectly clear that you and "your side", as you say, are the ones who started this argument, and you are the ones who started edit wars over it, including ridiculous ones over the Olympics team infoboxes. I think your "side"'s, and your, conduct in this debate has been absolutely deplorable. I'm not claiming to be a model Wikicitizen myself, but as I logged on today I noticed, yet again, the letter ä removed from the first line of this article, as well as this edit by you. As it is, Wikipedia ice hockey articles incorporated Finnish/Scandinavian letters and diacritics before you started your crusade. I think it's extremely poor Wikiquette and behaviour on your part to continue with this kind of edit war. If a consensus is reached on Wikipedia about the use or non-use of ä, ö and å, then I will stop using them. Until then, however, this is the way Wikipedia was before your crusade, and this is the way it will stay until some official policy is arrived at. Since you want to change Wikipedia, there is a proper way to do this: create a Wikipedia-wide policy on using diacritics and Finnish/Scandinavian letters and have it approved through the appropriate channels. Your current way of edit wars and shouting at people on talk pages amounts to little more than bullying. If you want to change Wikipedia the proper way, read WP:HCP and get to it. Otherwise I will continue to regard edits like the one I linked to above as nothing more than vandalism, because that's what they are. I hope you'll take the time and energy you invest in this fight and those edits and use it to try to resolve this problem through the Wikipedia policy process. I don't intend to engage in another of these debates again, unless it is over a global Wikipedia policy. Until there is one, I intend to continue using Finnish letters in articles about Finnish ice hockey players. Elrith 16:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, i am not the one shouting at people. As i recall, it wasn't me who first used the word "nationalistic" and it definately wasn't me use use the word "racist". And i strongly think that you still misunderstand me. I have no problem with diacritics being used here on wikipedia. I just don't think that when the most common spelling in English omits them, wikipedia should use them. That goes against Wikipedia:Naming convention. and as for changing wikipedia, there is already discussion in progress in that regards here. Oh, and by the way, this whole edit war started when people started mass moving pages to include diacritics unilaterally. Before the mass moves (starting near the end of 2005), most pages didn't include diacritics. Sure a few did, but not most (referring to hockey articles, of course). I didn't care that a few pages were that way as it was no big deal. But, as mentioned before, a select few people started moving pages unilaterally and without any discussion. That is when this little edit war started. Next time, look in the mirror before laying blame. So, i ask you directly: What is wrong with using the most common spelling in English used my the majority of reputable references as per Wikipedia:naming convention? Masterhatch 23:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Using diacritics is not covered by WP:NAME; your claim that they should be omitted to conform to WP:NAME is your interpretation. Don't confuse the two. I still strongly believe that as long as there is no official policy on using diacritics, you are totally wrong in removing them arbitrarily from Wikipedia while the policy is unresolved. I feel that continuing to remove diacritics from pages that use them and starting these kinds of votes on moving pages is an instance of WP:POINT; you are disrupting Wikipedia by trying to change content to conform to your policy proposal even though that policy has not been accepted.

What is wrong with using the most common spelling in English is that it is wrong. It is incorrect to replace the Finnish letters with different letters in a person's proper name. As I've said, WP:NAME does not address the question of using diacritics or "extended Latin" characters; this is specifically referred to as an unresolved dispute here. Your proposal to remove diacritics is a policy proposal, and in my opinion it is not backed by WP:NAME. I believe this is a case where it is not appropriate to conform to the most common spelling in English because it omits information, namely the fact that Teemu Selänne's proper name is Selänne, not Selanne. As I've said, I don't want to discuss this in connection to a specific page or name but as a part of a general Wikipedia policy. Elrith 11:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

comment User:Uppland, at no time have i said that English doesn't use diacritics! I am just saying that when the majority of reputable publications don't use diacritics, then wikipedia should follow suit. Of course, if the majority of reputable publications do use diacritics, then wikipedia should follow suit as well! In the case of teemu, most english publications don't use diacritics. Masterhatch 22:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. The back of his own jersey says "SELANNE".[2] Perhaps if he were currently playing in Finland, it would say "SELÄNNE". But he's not, so that point is moot. I say if he is willing to allow his name to be "Americanized," then the English version of Wikipedia should use that spelling as well. --Skudrafan1 22:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

comment Uppland, it is really nice that you pointed to other unrelated wikipedia articles and external links that use diacritics, but it would be great if you pointed out where English uses Teemu Selanne's name with diacritics? Because isn't that what this is all about? Masterhatch 23:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The examples of Dvořák or Hammarskjöld are very relevant in that they illustrate how English-language encyclopedias handle diacritics. Wikipedia aspires to be an encyclopedia and should follow the practice of encyclopedias and other scholarly publications, not the sloppy practices of the sports pages in your local paper. And it should be consistent; there is no reason for special rules for hockey players. u p p l a n d 08:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with Hammarskjöld being spelled with the ö because that is the most common way it is spelled in English-language sources. But "Selanne" is the most common way that name is spelled in English-language sources, so that is the way it should be spelled here. BoojiBoy 00:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The English-language sources that spell Teemu Selänne's name without diacritics are not encyclopedic or academic sources. If you look at English-language newspapers, I am pretty certain that the names of Dvořák and Hammarskjöld are often written "Dvorak" and "Hammarskjold" as well, but an encyclopedia can be more careful with getting things right. If the Encyclopaedia Britannica would have an article on Teemu Selänne, it would very likely apply the same principles to his name as it does to Hammarskjöld's. u p p l a n d 05:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Show me these other sources. Not all entries on wikipedia can be found in traditional encyclopaedias, so we use other reputable sources. We can't disregard a source simply because it doesn't fit our personal point of view. Masterhatch 00:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please clarify which "other sources" you are referring to. u p p l a n d 05:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

??? That is what i am asking of you. You are talking about other sources than newspapers and the such. What other sources are you talking about? I am assuming that you are talking about English sources that spell his name with diacritics. if so, please show me, otherwise you dont have a a leg to stand on. Wikipedia:Naming convention is all too clear, the most common English name be used for titles. Masterhatch 05:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The first point I want to make is that Selänne is a Finnish name for a Finnish person, not an English name, and it doesn't become an English name just because you spell it "Selanne" - it remains the same Finnish name, just written with an "a" instead of an "ä". Removing diacritics does not make it an English one, and in most cases this spelling is likely used as a matter of convenience, not because it is an established English form of the person's name. Hence I don't see sources using "Selanne" as having any authority (in this case, they may be excellent sources for other facts), and a Google popularity contest becomes rather pointless.

English names exist for certain well-established groups of people, such as foreign rulers (e.g. Charles IV of Spain), classical authors (Homer, Virgil), biblical characters (Solomon, Isaiah) and Christian church fathers and saints (Ambrose, Francis of Assisi). Those are English names for foreign people, but the case of Selänne is not analogous, because these other names have a centuries-long history of established use in writing and a distinct English pronunciation. These are uncontroversial English forms known to any semi-educated English-speaking person, as opposed to "Selanne".

A second point is that consistency is a good thing in an encyclopaedia. An encyclopaedia, once it is established that diacritics can be used, should attempt both to be more consistent and more careful in the spelling of foreign proper nouns than can be expected from sports journalism and fansites on the web. Even the Encyclopædia Britannica 1911 (long before unicode) used diacritics for foreign proper nouns, for instance for the name of Dvořák, and in the same article when paranthetically noting the German name (Mühlhausen) of his Czech city of birth. This case is analogous because it concerns a (comparatively) modern individual, and because the name of Dvořák is (and was in 1911) often spelled without diacritics in other types of English-language sources.

A third point is that the native spelling actually carries information on the pronunciation that the version stripped of diacritics lacks. One doesn't have to be Finnish to know that Selänne is pronounced differently from Selanne, or Polish to know that Wałęsa is pronounced differently fom how "Walesa" would be, or Spanish to know that an Ñ is pronounced differently from an N. In fact, if all the knowledge one has of one of these languages is some general idea how to pronounce some names, the correct spelling helps a lot in the pronunciation of other names. A Pole will probably recognize and correctly pronounce "Walesa" anyway, even if it is written in ASCII. u p p l a n d 11:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

"One doesn't have to be Finnish to know that Selänne is pronounced differently from Selanne"

Is that so? And how in the hell would your average hick from central Alberta (i.e. me) know that? Last I checked, they didn't teach diacritics in elementary school. Doogie2K (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

<sarcasm>Well, now you have Wikipedia to learn how it should be written and pronounced.</sarcasm> Duja 20:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Way to miss the point altogether. Doogie2K (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Have we considered using redirects? DMighton 13:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

There are redirects in place for any articles that had been moved to diacritic-less names Teemu Selanne redirects to Teemu Selänne, as do every other hockey player's name that had been unilaterally moved per the suggested guideline that is Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format#Use of diacritics and non-English characters. If the random user types in any of the names without the diacritic marks, they'll be sent to the articles that use the diacritics. Ryūlóng 21:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

And this changes what, exactly? You're still demanding that we conform to your worldview, something no other Wikipedia has to deal with. If you can't see that what you're asking is the same as asking the Czechs to go and move their Virginia Woolfe article to suit our spelling, then you're beyond hope. Doogie2K (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It can be quite validly put that you are still demanding that we conform to your (fairly narrow, I'd say) worldview on something every other Wikipedia deals with. When a language rule demands a transliteration, as in e.g. Russian wikipedia, then it's transliterated. Where it demands original spelling, as in e.g. Croatian Wikipedia, it is retained. AFAICT, English spelling requires transliteration only for non-Latin alphabets, and, as pointed above, Teemu Selänne is a Latin alphabet. Duja 20:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no. You are demanding that we, as English speakers, conform to your worldview. How, you ask? Because you're asking us to include characters (they are distinct, right? Have we established this yet?) that are not a part of our standard character set. The character "ä" is part of an extended Latin alphabet, used in various ways by various languages. The original Latin alphabet, I can say with certainty, didn't have umlauts, accent marks, or haceks. Doogie2K (talk) 18:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I purposefully mentioned Croatian because there's no W in Croatian alphabet, yet there is article hr:Washington because language rule says don't transliterate from Latin-based alphabets. While English is far less prescriptive than Croatian, I believe the same rule applies there (as Elrith pointed out above) in all serious publications, which Wikipedia certainly aims to be. No, I don't believe that Munich should be at München or Beograd at Belgrade, as that's how they're traditionally spelled, but I do believe that (almost) none of persons or names from Latin-writing languages that entered English in 20th century (and older terms not frequently used in English) do not have an established "transliteration" in reputable English sources, and should be written with proper diacritics. I am able to more or less correctly pronounce the names from most European languages (and if not, I'm willing to learn by looking at the corresponding phonology article). I still render your insistence on "your" perceived English spelling as "I dunno whasthis and I don't care, but it bothers me as foreign". Duja 11:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone here is forcing Croatians to spell Washington as Washington. It is their language, they do as they please. See also (Kanada, Havaji, Južna Karolina, or Engleska). I don't feel the need to "correct" them. ccwaters 12:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Duja, who are you to judge this, "...but I do believe that (almost) none of persons or names from Latin-writing languages that entered English in 20th century (and older terms not frequently used in English) do not have an established "transliteration" in reputable English sources, and should be written with proper diacritics."? This is another example of people on wikipedia voting using their personal POV instead of following wikipedia policies and guidelines. Look, it is not for us editors of wikipedia to decide anything; we only follow what is already being done. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. If the majority of reputable English publications are dropping diacritics, even on people from the 20th century, then wikipedia must follow its own guidelines and do the same. On the same note, if the majority of reputable English publications are keeping diacritics, then it should only be natural that wikipedia would also do the same. That is about as NPOV as one can get. Masterhatch 15:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, there are no "reputable" (in the narrow sense of the word) English publications dealing with foreign sportspeople, entertainers and like. They often appear on web pages, newspapers etc. written in casual style, with diacritics dropped due to technical limitations, laziness to apply technical tools, or ignorance. Now, wherever we do have foreigners more popular in English-speaking area, we will have the situation as here. A blind application of policy as you interpret it now leads to inconsistency, which is IMO far worse than not being "readily recognizable to general public" (which argument I don't buy): if a sportsperson has played in an American league or appeared in English press, thus being more accessible to English-speaking public, he will have his name spelled in a poorly anglicized fashion ("drop the diacritics"). If his popularity was more limited to domestic ground, his name will be correctly written in WP. I don't believe that was the intent of WP policy writers; I also don't think that we, as editors, are not to decide anything. Apparently, common sense and a consensus are called for, but we do seem to have different criteria and different reading of that policy. My criteria for "established English spelling" are much different than yours, (and the interpretation of WP:NAME likewise). For example, I think that cases like Zurich vs. Zürich, and Danzig vs. Gdańsk are close, while Selänne is not. And I think what was done with Jaroslav Spacek example presented by Doogie is a butchering, where apparent English pronunciation doesn't even come close to the native one, and without IPA pronunciation in the intro. Duja 11:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

What is your definition of "reputable"??? And then Show me examples of non-English publications that satisfy your criteria. Sports media source their NHL hockey information from the NHL, respective NHL teams, and the NHLPA (the organization whose sole purpose is respresenting the players in question). I must be missing something, because I don't see where they have failed. ccwaters 12:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

No kidding, tell us what "reputable" means in your view. And after you come up with your definition for "reputable", why don't you give us some "reputable" sources to back up your side of the debate. Masterhatch 22:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Another thing, diacritics don't affect English pronunciation. English people pronounce it the way they hear it. For example, i hear Spacek's name being pronounced as "spa check". Adding or subracting diacritics won't affect the way i say his name or the way other Englsh speakers say his name. Masterhatch 22:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

See now, instead of shouting the place down, calling names, crying PoV, why has no one else made suggestions? See, I like that pronunciation guide suggestion. If we were willing to do that, would you be more willing to follow policy interms of diacritic use – that is, if they are not in the common English spelling, they appear once, in the native translation, presumably alongside a phonetic guide? I have no problem with compromising, as long as it remains within the spirit of policy. Doogie2K (talk) 15:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy on diacritic use on Wikipedia. Policy proposals, especially policy proposals on Wikiprojects, are not policies. Your arguments that the existing WP:NAME policies apply to diacritics the way you claim are your arguments, not Wikipedia policies. Your interpretation is solely yours, not a Wikipedia policy. Elrith 11:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a dishonest proposal

This proposal rests on a false premise. In the list of Wikipedia policies that supposedly bak the idea of removing diacritics from the article's title, the only two policies that relate directly to diacriticals (namely Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format#Use of diacritics and non-English characters) are policy proposals, not Wikipedia policies. The very beginning of the first quoted page reads: "References or links to this page should not describe it as "policy".", but this proposal does just that. I'm afraid the proposal has been deliberately misrepresented as being backed by Wikipedia policies when it is, in fact, not. Elrith 18:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe at any point i have referred to those two proposals as policies and i have been clear that they are in fact proposals. What i have been pointing out, though, is that Wikipedia:Naming convention is clear about this: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." and this "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists." and this "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." Those two proposals you mentioned stem from this official policy, not our own pov. Both those proposals are also clear that if the most common form in English includes diacritics, then wikipeida will follow suit. We on wikipedia are not here to be leaders, only followers. Masterhatch 02:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, let's not forget to assume good faith here. I've perhaps been a bit guilty of that myself, but the point still stands. Doogie2K (talk) 01:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Masterhatch is being totally disingenuous. You list the two proposed policies identically with accepted, official Wikipedia policies; that, to me, is misleading. Neither proposed policy can support any move or change; they can't support anything, because they're only proposals. This is a totally dishonest way to argue. I could just as well invent a policy, write it up as a proposal and start making sweeping changes and justify them with my own proposal. Actually, that's exactly what you're doing. Elrith 17:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I tend to disagree (as you thought i might). Notice that I haven't quoted from those two proposals, only linked to them so people can have a read. I quote from a policy and a guideline. Not once have i implied that the proposals are anything but and i have been very clear about everything. What you are missing, though, is anything to support your side except your own POV (it's misspelt!!!). Oh, and if you look at the page histories of most (but not all) hockey players (including this teemu selanne one) you will see that they started out without diacritics and so it is people who have moved them to include diacritics that have in fact done so without consensus. (Note about teemu's page history: while it appears to have started out without diacritics, diacritics were first added about 20 minutes or so after page creation) Masterhatch 23:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

And in the event of a conflict, the original should be preserved until the conflict is settled. Doogie2K (talk) 15:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You're being ridiculous. At the beginning of the conflict, the page was called Teemu Selänne, and the conflict is over people insisting it be moved. The only sensible interpretation of the "original stands" rule is that the page stay at Selänne until a consensus is reached. What you're doing here is grasping at straws. Elrith 15:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Two questions for all

A direct question: What is wrong with following wikipedia policy "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." and guideline "If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works."?

A follow up question: What is more common in "...other encyclopedias and reference works", Teemu Selanne or Teemu Selänne? Masterhatch 02:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

A third question: are diacriticized letters distinct characters or not? If yes, then transliteration rules apply. If no, then it makes no difference, and English can represent it in the most common form. Either way, there's no justifiable reason for diacritics to exist in these titles/article bodies. Doogie2K (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Briefly:

Inconsistency.
There are no "other encyclopedias and reference works" in many cases, such as this.
Yes, the diacriticized letters are distinct characters, in most cases. No, the transliteration rules don't apply, as there is no transliteration between Latin and Latin. The proposed "transliteration" is not lossless.
Duja 11:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Although most English words have the same number of letters as characters as graphemes, this is not true of other languages; therefore, you're it's-either-a-letter-or-it-isn't argument is a simplification. I live in a town called Llandudno (the first letter of which is a Welsh Ll); would you support those who mispell it as Landudno moving the article? I may be wrong, but, as someone not involved in this debate, I get the impression that your opposition may be more directed at non-ASCII characters on Wikipedia.

Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley _talk _contrib 11:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

No, the standard handling of such Welsh names is to assume there are 2 L's, and pronounce it poorly. ccwaters 11:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

No, the problem isn't with non-ASCII characters at all. The problem is titling articles with the least common spelling in English. Masterhatch 16:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I dont' see the inconsistancy. I really don't. It is all pretty clear and straight forward: for article titles that the most common English spelling includes diacritics, then wikipedia shall too. For articles that diacritics are least common in English, then wikipedia will them out too. You seem to be whinging about the lack of references that use diacritics. You know, that is exactly my point. Masterhatch 23:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the article diacritic, you'll find that the letters ä, ö and å in Finnish and Scandinavian names are not properly diacritics, as they are distinct letters of the alphabet. Elrith 17:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, distinct letters of the alphabet meaning they aren't in the English one. Masterhatch 23:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

...and therefore, meaning you transliterate. Doogie2K (talk) 15:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

To quote you: "Says who? You?" Where do you get this idea? Elrith 15:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Sigh...you'd think you'd know where WP:NAME was by now. Note that this specific convention also includes the stipulation that if the native spelling is more prevalent, use that. I still don't know why people are crying PoV over this. Doogie2K (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Nowhere on WP:NAME does it say that you are required to transliterate the characters ä, ö and å, so I don't know what you're sighing about. So I still don't see any references to back up your claim that these letters should be transliterated. Elrith 11:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Examples

If anyone's gotten this far, they're no doubt thoroughly engaged in the debate, so I figure, why not provide some examples of what we're looking for here?

Jaroslav Spacek - Czech ice hockey player with the Buffalo Sabres, whose name includes two characters with haceks
Johann Strauss the Elder and the Younger - German classical composers whose names include "ß", which is also not an English character. It's not a perfect analogy, for the same reason many have decried my Russian examples, but it's an example of a name from a language that largely uses the Latin alphabet, which has been Anglicized for technical/readability purposes.

I don't think either of these examples are at cross-purposes with the ultimate point of using the most recognizable form to the English-speaking world. They preserve the native spelling without causing technical problems for those of us without world keyboards, and I think represent a positive solution to this problem. Doogie2K (talk) 20:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Spacek's name is butchered, as I said above. It doesn't even nearly correspond to pronunciation /ʃpatʃɛk/. A closer transcription would be "shpatchek", but it's neither common nor 100% correct, so I'm against it in any case.

But again, we're not transcribing, we're transliterating. That's WP policy.

I've added your phoneticization of Spacek's last name. While I'm passingly familiar with Slavic pronunciation, thanks to two years of university-level Russian, I wouldn't want to make the guess about the first name, even though I'm fairly certain it will be something very close to it spelling (/jaˈrʌslaˌf/? Does Czech devoice at the end of a word as Russian does?). Also, would you like to render the stress marks when we do this? (I've done so here; I presume the stress on "Spacek" is on the first syllable.) Doogie2K (talk) 15:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

ß vs. ss was discussed previously and the consensus was to retain "ss", as (IIRC) it's not incorrect even in German (Swiss German doesn't even use ß), the replacement is fairly widely accepted, and it's a just notation convention in German rather than a different sound.
Duja 11:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

As i said above, diacritics don't affect the way it's pronounced in English. I say the name like "spa check" because that is the way i hear it. Adding or subtracting diacritics won't affect the way I pronounce that name. Masterhatch 23:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Policy proposal

I have created a policy proposal for Finnish proper names at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Finnish); please comment on it at the talk page! Elrith 14:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Selanne should be UFA

CBC was reporting that Selanne and J.S. Giguere were unrestricted free agents at the end of this season (this makes sense considering that Selanne signed the contract at the beginning of the 2006-07 season (a.k.a the end of the 2005-06 season). Since he had his year in Anaheim, and since there were no discussions or reports about Selanne being signed, he should be listed an an Unrestricted Free Agent (considering that he signed a 1 year deal).

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in the meantime I will put Anaheim Ducks as a former team for Selanne, just like what we did with Mike Peca last year when he became unrestricted. I'd appreciate verification for this.Ohyeh 13:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Selanne is a UFA (see TSN website), I've since removed him from the Anaheim Ducks current roster (Ducks official website no longer lists him). GoodDay 20:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible plagarism

Most of the "playing career" section of this article was lifted wholesale from the Anaheim Ducks page at http://www.hockeypacific.com/anaheim-ducks/teemu-selanne/ (or vice versa--without better date information on both articles, I don't know which, particularly because this is the first article I've ever attempted to edit). It begins with this paragraph: "Selanne played in his 1,000th NHL game on December 31, 2006 against the Minnesota Wild. On February 7, 2007, in a game against the San Jose Sharks, Selanne scored his 524th career goal to move into a tie with Bryan Trottier for 27th on the NHL’s all-time list. The “Finnish Flash” moved past Trottier with a first period goal against the Coyotes in Phoenix on February 15, 2007 with his father, Ilmari, in attendance (the fathers of 18 Anaheim players and one of the player’s father-in-law were at the game as part of a team-building experience)."

This article matches word for word with the hockeypacific.com article to the end, even containing identical punctuation errors. Neither article cites the other at any point. The citation that is there is a link to a press release from the Anaheim Ducks that no longer exists.

I propose deletion of that section until a rewrite with suitable citations can be made. Astraldaeva (talk) 19:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

- - EDIT: On further investigation, there is a general citation of wikipedia at the bottom of the page. I apologize for any confusion I've caused anyone besides myself. So long as this does not violate wikipedia's copyright policies (I do admit to being wet behind the ears as this is concerned), I withdraw my proposed deletion. I will continue to find citations in order to make the article more reliable.***

Astraldaeva (talk) 23:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Nickname

Per WP:HOCKEY's decision to remove the nickname field from the infobox, it is being moved here for use later. "| nickname = The Finnish Flash" -Djsasso (talk) 21:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)