Talk:Susanna and the Elders (Gentileschi, Stamford)

Article title (move?)[edit]

Would it not be better to title this article Susanna and the Elders (Artemisia Gentileschi, Stamford)? This artist is known more commonly as Artemisia than as Gentileschi, and there is another painter called Gentileschi: Artemisia's father Orazio -- Frans Fowler (talk) 04:51, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with adding Artemisia. Compare Susanna and the Elders (Artemisia Gentileschi, Brno) and Susanna and the Elders (Artemisia Gentileschi, Pommersfelden) (but not Susanna and the Elders (Gentileschi, Bologna))

I would also propose replacing Stamford with Burghley. Nedrutland (talk) 06:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, even better. The new title would then be Susanna and the Elders (Artemisia Gentileschi, Burghley)—unless anyone knows any impediment. Frans Fowler (talk) 08:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second thoughts, though... Pommersfelden is the town near Weißenstein Palace, where the earliest of Artemisia's three Susannas hangs. Brno is the city where the other one hangs (somewhere in the multi-site Moravian Gallery). Is "Stamford" not more consistent with those two? -- Frans Fowler (talk) 14:18, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be inclined towards concision and therefore having simply "Gentileschi" followed by a location. Artemisia not Orazio is today the primary topic for an artist called Gentileschi, so she would still be recognisable from the article title. In cases where multiple artists share a surname it still seems best to use only the surname for disambiguation, except where that creates a genuine ambiguity – e.g., when there are paintings by Orazio and Artemisia with the same subject matter. Danaë (Artemisia Gentileschi) and Danaë (Orazio Gentileschi) should stay as they are.

As for what to put as a location here, I'd be surprised if sources said "Stamford" rather than "Burghley House" or "Burghley" – not least because Burghley House is only near Stamford, Lincolnshire. I think Susanna and the Elders (Gentileschi, Burghley House) would be the best match with the parent article for the location, which is at Burghley House. Ham II (talk) 10:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds right. Oddly, Burghley isn't even in the same county as Stamford. Did Orazio ever paint a Susanna and the Elders? Johnbod (talk) 04:00, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Johnbod, Ham II, and Nedrutland,

(a) I accept that "Burghley House" would be a good choice for consistency with the article that discusses the collection, and that consequently it would be better than "Stamford".

(b) Judging by the "incomplete list" of Orazio's works and the Met's 2001 catalogue of works by Orazio and Artemisia, it doesn't look as if Orazio ever did a Susanna and the Elders, in which case there is presumably no ambiguity that adding Artemisia's first name here would resolve.

(c) Nonetheless, if concision is the deciding criterion, I'd prefer Artemisia to Gentileschi in the article title because I believe Artemisia is more recognisable. There are now quite a few fiction and non-fiction books about her. On their covers, Artemisia is usually more prominent than Gentileschi, and sometimes Gentileschi is not mentioned at all. In the art market, father Orazio's work still fetches significantly higher prices than daughter Artemisia's, so presumably not everybody primarily associates Gentileschi with the daughter. (The National Gallery in London paid some £3.6 million for Artemisia's Self-Portrait as Saint Catherine of Alexandria in 2018; in 2019 it paid about £19 million for Orazio's (admittedly much bigger) The Finding of Moses.) So, my reconsidered suggestion is: Susanna and the Elders (Artemisia Gentileschi, Burghley House), less the "Gentileschi" or the "House" (or both) if required for concision. - Frans Fowler (talk) 09:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]