Talk:Sudanese literature/Archive 1

Archive 1

Confusion of Name

The name Sudan comes from the Arabic word for black and was used in the sense of Black Africa. This is why Leo Africanus talks about Timbuctoo. There already is a wikipedia article on African literature. Most English readers will expect this one to be about literature in the Sudan, the country they can see represented on a map, some distance from Timbuctoo.Gallador 02:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and French colonial administration used "Soudan (français)" for the modern state of Mali up to independence, and this sometimes creates confusion with the modern state of Sudan. See French Sudan for more. Munfarid1 (talk) 10:20, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sudanese literature/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cerebellum (talk · contribs) 14:07, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello! I will be reviewing this article, please allow up to a week for the review! --Cerebellum (talk) 14:07, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Munfarid, thank you for this article, I enjoyed reading it. My favorite part was learning about Selim Aga, what a fascinating life! The article is especially valuable since it helps counter our systemic bias and poor coverage of Africa. I imagine it's difficult to find sources for the topic - google search for "Sudanese literature" in quotes only gives me 11,000 results, while "Irish literature" gives over a million! The article is well-written and well-referenced. Of course GA reviews focus on the negatives, so please see below for my comments. I'll place the article on hold for seven days so you can revise the article. Best wishes, Cerebellum (talk) 11:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

• Lead: The lead has two paragraphs about Sudanese literature from 300 BC to Islamic period, but I don't see that information in the body of the article. The same is true of the information about the Sudanese Writers Union. In general, content that appears in the lead in summary form should be in the body as well.
• Broadness: That leads me to a related point, there's not much in the article about premodern Sudanese literature. I understand that most of it is oral and you cover the oral tradition well, but I found two works that I think should be in this article - the Tabaqat of Wad Dayf Allah, and the Funj Chronicles (link). Is that right?
• Quotations: For some reason, I think that quotations should not go in the lead section, like the one from Eiman El-Nour. It's tough for me to articulate why, I guess it's just a style preference, so let me know if you disagree.
• Contemporary Sudanese literature: Two comments for this section. First, you begin the section by going straight into details baout Tarek Eltayeb. I think it would be good to start with a summary sentence, or even a paragraph, about contemporary Sudanese literature in general and its significance. Second, do you have any more information about Hamedd al-Nazir than the single sentence that is in the article now? Maybe the titles/plots/significance of his novels.
• Prose: The prose is very good, I've made some changes though so let me know if you disagree with any of them.
• Images: It would be nice to have a couple of images to illustrate the article, maybe a photo of Tayeb Saleh or anything else you think is appropriate.
• South Sudan: It might be too early to tell, but since 2011 has a distinct South Sudanese literature appeared, distinct from that of Sudan? I guess I wonder because you mention you suppression of free speech under the Bashir government in Sudan, I'm not sure if South Sudan is the same way, or if the civil war there has made literary activity impossible. If none of the sources discuss this topic that's fine too.
• Magazines: When you mention Andariya and the The Niles, I don't think primary sources (the magazine websites) are sufficient to support the implied claim that these magazines are a significant part of Sudanese literature. Are there any secondary sources which discuss these magazines?
• Theater: The second sentence of the "theatre" paragraph confused me a bit, is it saying that more than one writer wrote a play about El Mek Nimr? If so it might it be worth adding the name of one of the writers for clarity.
• References:
  • The first paragraph of "Nonfiction by Sudanese writers" should have a reference. Also, the second paragraph of "Literature in English by writers with Sudanese roots."
  • For references #3 and 19, please provide page numbers.
  • Reference #15 gave me an error message, are you able to access the website?
  • Reference #68 gave me a 404 error.
  • Reference #69 is missing the title. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello Cerebellum (talk, thank you very much for your helpful and encouraging remarks. I have just rewritten the lead and added an introduction to Contemporary Sudanese literature, as you suggested. Also, I have tried to fix all the other issues you raised and added a few more sentences to complete the subject. (e.g. a new paragraph on graphic storytelling)

Thank you very much for your hint on the Tabaqat of Wad Dayf Allah, and the Funj Chronicles, which I was not aware about. - I have just added this and have corrected on the other smaller issues (magazines, theatre,references, page numbers etc.) you mentioned. - Also, you will see that there are now two pictures of Tayeb Salih and Leila Abulela. Do you think we need more? (I actually have asked someone in Khartoum to upload corresponding pictures on Commons, but am not sure, when this will be available.)

As to South Sudan, - I am not sure, if a distinct South Sudanese literature has appeared. But since Stella Gaitano is about the only South Sudanese contemporary writer I have read about, I don't really think so.

Thanks also for your compliment on my prose, and the changes you made to my text. Being a non-native speaker of English and not living in an English-speaking environment, I certainly appreciate your encouragement.

Maybe you want to make good use of the upcoming weekend and have a look at my changes, and let me know what you think of them. Best regards, and glad you enjoy reading about Sudanese literature. :) Munfarid1 (talk) 19:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Munfarid, looks great!! Thank you for the quick response and thorough revisions. Photos from Khartoum would be great :) But it's not necessary for the GA criteria, I'm happy to pass as a GA. --Cerebellum (talk) 11:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 05:56, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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Sudanese poet Mahjoub Sharif

• ... that the earliest book in English of Sudanese literature is the memoir of Selim Aga, born around 1826, who had been sold as slave, but twenty years later, published his autobiography in "faultless idiomatic English"? Source: (McCarthy, James (2007). "Selim Aga: New Life on his Life and his Explorations in West Africa" (PDF). The Journal of the Hakluyt Society, July 2007.)
  • ALT1:... that the ancient way of reciting Sudanese literature out loud is not dead, but has been accompanying the Sudanese Revolution of 2018/19? Source: In the 21st century, contemporary forms of oral literature as an expression of identity, political resistance or visions of the future include the forms of spoken word poetry, political slogans, rap, or hip hop music that accompanied the Sudanese Revolution of 2018/19. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-50835344

Improved to Good Article status by Munfarid1 (talk). Self-nominated at 19:03, 25 January 2021 (UTC).

Substantial article on plenty of good sources, Arabic source accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. In the lead, I'd like more information about the languages but up to you. I am no friend of the small print in a quote box, but again up to you. - In the first hook, why mention the mountains? The hook ends at the first question mark, DYK? It has to be one question. If you want to mention more from his life, it needs to come before the question mark. The second hook is too long for the standard DYK readers, perhaps compare others on this page and trim it a bit? "not dead, but alive" is redundant, for example. Nice to meet you! I learned a lot! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the image is licensed but not of highest quality. If you still want to use it, a connection must be given in the hook, which looks like the ALT to me, - I see no connection to the original. It has to be in the format (... pictured) - with ... replaced by what it is, or nothing if clear. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt - nice to meet you, too, and thanks a lot for your comments and suggestions. I have tried to follow them and changed both hooks accordingly. - We (i.e. you as reviewer or can I do it?) can omit the picture, as I find it difficult to include a mention of the poet in a short hook. - Also, I have not written more about the historical languages, as their literature is only preceeding "Sudanese" literature. Hope this helps to put the hook into the DYK loop. Munfarid1 (talk) 08:11, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for all that, Munfarid! The hooks are better, and next time, please don't change the originals but propose the new wording below to leave the conversation transparent. Never mind for this time. I'd still like to shorten them, for the limited attention span of our Main page readers:

ALT0a: ... that the earliest book in English of Sudanese literature is the memoir of Selim Aga, who was born in 1826 and sold as slave, but published his autobiography in "faultless idiomatic English"?

ALT1a: ... that the ancient way of reciting Sudanese literature out loud (pictured) was performed during the Sudanese Revolution of 2018/19?

Feel free to improve on those, but then below, please. We have done all about the image, - the prep builder will take it or not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks again, Gerda, and also for your very helpful remarks about how to change hooks. This is only my second time in DYK, and I was not fully aware of how to go about it. - Now we have two good hooks, I assume the prep builder will be able to go ahead with scheduling this hook for the DYK section on the Main Page. Your knowledgeable assistance will certainly make more people aware of the literary heritage of Sudan, whose culture remains largely undocumented and even less known in the world. Munfarid1 (talk) 14:52, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I should not approve hooks that I made myself, but in this case I only reworded what you offered. Thank you for the article about a great and easily overlooked topic! Did you see Pueblo pottery, earlier today, pictured? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:59, 7 February 2021 (UTC)