Talk:Stardust Crusaders/Archive 1

American Publication of Manga

There should be some mention of the Viz publication of this manga, ie, the progress and mention of whether or not it is edited or anything.

Character List

Joseph Joestar is conspicuously absent from the character list. Msoftceo 21:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Plot Summary Prod

I really liked the information provided on this page. I think the detailed character/stand table at the bottom is a really excellent and necessary reference. I did add additional information about this portion of the series, including the intro paragraph, information about the English translation, and the example cover for this portion of the series, which I figured justified getting rid of the prod at the top. I didn't have the heart to trim the lengthy summary since I thought all the info was good, but if this article requires a slimming of that section or additional sections or information about the series in order to make it less of a plot summary, by all means mention it here and I'll see what I can do.--Simside (talk) 07:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

End of the summary

I lol'd at the final part. "...forcing Jotaro to use Star Platinum in ways he never thought possible with a power level surpassing that of Goku, Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo and Vegeta. It was the day the earth stood still." I like funny stuff, but isn't this a bit... unorthodox for wikipedia? I mean, people who don't know anything about any of those characters might get quite confused. Maybe making the names internal links would help. I will do it when I check if the pages are informative enough about the power level of these characters, like over 9000. 85.70.174.197 (talk) 22:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Alessi Article

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't ever remember Joseph Joestar being attacked by Alessi and becoming younger in any story arc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.89.80.16 (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"Holly"?

Does Viz actually spell her name like that?

If so, how did they explain the "Seiko" bit, then? I mean... *sigh* Erigu (talk) 13:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Not to answer this ages later, but...Holly IS her name. That's how it's given on the family tree at the front of every volume of the Japanese edition. Doceirias (talk) 22:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Seiko is the name Holy gave herself when living in Japan. I think its explained that Seiko is Japanese transliterated from the meaning of the word "Holy"50.156.82.190 (talk) 21:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC).

Yeah, like I said above, the "Seiko" bit makes it pretty clear her name is "Holy" with one L. And that's also how it's spelled on (Japanese) official material like JoJo 6251, etc. But if Viz used "Holly" instead, I guess that's it: it's the English Wikipedia's policy to conform to the terminology used by the official English-language edition. Unfortunate.

And I guess it's my turn to answer ages (ages!!) later, Doceirias, but I was talking about the number of Ls in the name (which is something you can't see in the Japanese volumes since they use katakana).

(I still wonder what they did with that "Seiko" explanation though... did they just remove it?) Erigu (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

No, they included the explanation. --50.156.82.190 (talk) 05:13, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

So, in their translation, her name is "Holly", but stupid Japanese people think it's spelled "Holy" and call her "Seiko" because of that? Seems like a fairly unnecessary layer of complexity to add, for a series that has characters named "Vanilla Ice" or "Prosciutto"... Erigu (talk) 06:15, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

In JoJoveller her name is written as "Holy".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Pretty sure it's always been "Holy" in all (Japanese) official material. Starting with the Japanese version of the page linked to earlier.

I believe "Holly" is just a Viz thing, presumably so she'd have a "real name" (which, again, considering how Araki tends to name his characters, seems a bit of a futile effort)... Erigu (talk) 07:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Chapter Names

The names for the chapters 199 to 204 have their romanized names as Basutote, but the katakana is バステト (basuteto). Which ones are right?148.225.131.25 (talk) 18:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably the katakana. I imagine I just flipped it when I did the romanizations. Doceirias (talk) 22:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

This is not the anime's page

Ryulong insists I make a talkpage because his personal one is semi-protected. He thinks Crunchyroll's facepalm-inducing "rhyme" titles for the first few episodes of the Stardust Crusaders anime should take precedence over the ones on this page. Needless to say, I think they should not and he wants to edit-war over it because he is the big policeman of all JoJo on Wikipedia and I have to waste half an hour of my Friday night writing up a wall of text.

Now I have to back up my claims to an autistic degree because I am not logged in and nobody listens to you unless you have a gorillion edits and imaginary awards on your user page. Either way, I will say up front that I know Japanese and I have translated into English large parts of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. I own all the manga in English and two sets of Part 3's manga (along with much more) in Japanese. I'm not interested in elaborating further because I've been in several edit wars in the past and I know how they go.

Let's look at 「愚者（ザ・フール）」のイギーと「ゲブ神」のンドゥール, which CR translated for the purpose of rhyming as "Iggy the Fool and Geb's N'Doul". The most literal way of translating this, given that these are two names, is "'The Fool' Iggy and 'Geb' N'Doul", which has sufficed on this page for a very long time. It is not "awkward as fuck phrasing" as Ryulong puts it. These are pairs of proper names, and setting them up like nicknames is the more natural and most space-effective way to deal with them short of omission.

The possessive particle の is pretty flexible when it comes to things such as titles. "Geb's N'Doul" is an irregular way to translate it especially given that the Geb Stand is possessed by N'Doul and not the other way around. It's obvious too even by the next episode's title "Khnum's Zenyatta and Thoth's Mondatta" that CR is trying to make a rhyme of them. This will obviously stop when there are no longer two names to rhyme (besides Hol and Boingo, but no rhyme potential in any of the names there), and all the future episode titles will just seem odd in comparison.

Anyway, it's like translating 英語の先生 (eigo no sensei) "English's teacher" instead of "English teacher". It's confusing. Is the teacher the one and only person who teaches English? How is this not "awkward as fuck"? But that's neither here nor there. We have a pair of proper nouns that can be parsed differently according to the の. CR's translation does it one way, the manga page isn't be required to do the same. Viz translates the story title as "Iggy the Fool and the God Geb". This obviously doesn't help since Viz's work has moderate adaptation in its translation and took its own approach to these titles: "[User] and the God/Goddess [Stand]". This too is valid in its way.

tl;dr version: CR's rhyme puns are more awkward and irregular than the literal translation. This is a page for the manga. There is a page for the anime. I'm not interested in the anime's page. The manga's page should keep the titles the way they've been all this time. If there were something wrong enough to edit, I would have done so already. There are two specific things not wrong enough to bother editing, that I won't bother mentioning unless pressed. And there I go again going off-track with my powerlevel.

PS: We shouldn't recognize any precedence of adapted names anywhere either, like J.Geil being "Centerfold". Those might garner a footnote, but not the main focus. I notice that Ryulong actually reverted a bunch of edits along these lines in April when a user arbitrarily changed all these after the English release of the PS3 "All Star Battle" fighting game. I don't know why he changed his tune since.

206.75.108.139 (talk) 07:43, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

You cannot be 100% sure why one translation was chosen over the other. It is just a simple change from the incredibly awkward sounding "The Fool Iggy and Geb N'Doul" to "Iggy the Fool and Geb's N'Doul" (which I've seen before the anime aired) as well as "Khnum Oingo and Thoth Boingo" to "Khnum's Oingo and Thoth's Boingo". Why does this matter so much? The titles have been changed over time to better translations anyway. There's a difference between using the oddly changed names between the Japanese and English translations of the anime. THere's no way we're switching to Centerfold and Rose and Zenyatta etc. But a simple change in grammatical form should not raise this much of a stink from anyone. It's how the anime's episode titles are being officially translated and the episode titles are identical to the chapter titles.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that you changed those names back to Oingo and Boingo. Good work.

But now you are retroactively editing CR's episode titles, and due to a conflict you are stuck in the middle of your original "awkward as fuck" argument against the old titles and your correct lowering of precedent for the "officially translated" newer names.

Wouldn't it be easier then to just go back to how it was before, instead of settling for a THIRD variant that is in one way or another less correct than the previous two? Your bias has taken you in a new direction, and I find that interesting, but Wikipedia is no place for that.

Or perhaps you have a complex about reading illegal scanlations? You've revealed that you don't own the Viz manga, so unless you were gifted by the Holy Animu Spirit with the ability to sperg in tongues all the facts about any manga or anime and thus able to verify all the information on the JoJo pages not already covered by the anime, you have downloaded and read illegal scanlations of JJBA. It's okay. Some of it may have been my work.

And now that you're able to watch the anime and get information legally, you want to push this new information really hard into places it doesn't belong. Like the page for the MANGA.

The problem with the grammatical form is that the way CR did it for that is wrong for the sake of a silly rhyme. The Stand does not possess the Stand User, it's the other way around.

If I'm zealous about this, it's because you'll dismiss me for posting under an IP if I don't take the argument to task. And I could go full autismo if I wanted. This isn't even my full power.

206.75.108.139 (talk) 09:07, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I'm not reading all of this "I'm the better nerd than you" argument you've posted because you're being incredibly rude and offensive while doing so. Crunchy roll paid people to translate. Or someone at Warner Bros Japan did. Or someone at Luckyland did. Their grammatical translations of these titles are better than the shit put forward by the fans over the past several years. Just because you don't like how it was made to rhyme is unimportant. Please be more concise next time.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:48, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

• If the titles have been officially translated into English, it is irrelevant how YOU think they should be translated. We go by the official translation as that translation can be verified. —Farix (t | c) 11:55, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

  One of the problems is that the officially translated names in Japan are vastly different from the officially translated names in English because of various trademark issues, so the article here is using the officially translated grammar but not the localized names, but that's not really why the IP is upset. He doesn't like that the grammar was changed.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

  Are the chapter titles the ones translated by Viz or not? —Farix (t | c) 00:03, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

  I'm not 100% sure. The volume list follows the Japanese release rather than Viz's. I've just been using the new anime's Crunchyroll episode titles to fix translations of these chapter titles, as they're not using Viz's translation.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:32, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Exactly how are the chapter titles translated by Viz Media, since Viz is the official English publisher? Appeals of expertise, such as this one will not fly if it is contrary to our verifiability policy and Viz's translations. —Farix (t | c) 17:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the comment by the banned editor's sockpuppet. He just blanket reverts any edit of mine he can.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:48, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that wasn't me. I'm not Japanese and I have zero intention of logging into a Wikipedia account again, let alone making a sockpuppet. Congrats too on pretending not to have read the parts where I completely disassembled your reasoning. Farix here is more open-minded, even though he doesn't own any of the manga either, so I will address him.

Viz's chapter names are "Iggy the Fool and the God Geb", as well as "Zenyatta and Mondatta". I mentioned this in my reversion, but Ryulong ignored it. He reverted the names back to Oingo and Boingo, and I point out that this goes against his desire to use CR's translations anyway.

The Viz edition of the manga has a moderate amount of adaptation to it, so I wouldn't place the highest value to it. Come 2018 or so, there may be a brand new edition of Part 3 out by Viz.

Anyway, Ryulong's bias against fan translations is pretty obvious at this point. It sounds to me like he's waiting for a reason to erase information he doesn't like and hasn't the expertise to contest in any other way.

I also say again: Possessive form using proper names are best parsed like nicknames, especially when there's more than one set. :::This is normal grammar, and a Stand User possesses a Stand. Not the other way around.

Tell me something though, Ryulong: if you were editing the Attack on Titan page, which "official anime translation" would you decide to be canon? CR's or Funi's? The answer is: The translation that is most accurate and sounds natural.

206.75.108.139 (talk) 22:55, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Kodansha USA's translations are used on the AoT pages.

So the issue is thusly:

On this page we translate the Japanese chapter titles into English using the translations put forward by Crunchyroll's official subtitles but with the Japanese names.

Just because 206.75.108.139 does not like the grammar is not consequential.

At some point we add the Viz version of the manga release to the page.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:08, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

You miss my points. Besides, there are already THREE sets of chapter names (Original JP tank, Original WSJ, and JP omnibus/etc.). Are you really thinking of adding a fourth? No, I think if you had your way, you'd gut two of those and probably delete all the Japanese too so another autist weeb like me can't call you out again. What a waste.

While you consider that, please look at the ISBNs and see if any of them can be found on CR. (This. Is. A. Manga. Wiki. Page.)

Now please acknowledge that CR is inverting the grammar in those titles to make puns. I won't demand anything else of you.

206.75.108.139 (talk) 00:10, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a page on a manga that has now had two separate anime adaptations. This article is presently being updated to conform with the new information from the present adaptation which for the first time in over a decade is up to date with the Japanese releases. Episode titles in the anime are identical to the Japanese manga chapter/volume titles. This page will be updated accordingly with the anime's release.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:34, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Both anime adaptations have their own wiki pages. There is no, or better information to be gleaned that belongs on this wiki page. The present anime has its own wiki page. CR's translations of the episode titles show an obvious adaptation loss, which is unacceptable to see here considering there is Japanese text for reference on this page, the same too applies to Viz's manga. Update http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JoJo%27s_Bizarre_Adventure:_Stardust_Crusaders accordingly if you wish.

You have exhibited bias against fan translations and your fervor for fixing those which you dislike is misplaced. I realize similar could be said of my Friday night fervor, whatever my expertise, but I am not kicking up a fuss on the talk page for the new anime. This is the page for the manga.

Crunchyroll's mangling of grammar for short-lived puns in their translation of the anime do not belong on this page as the one and only titles for these chapters of manga. If nobody were subbing this and furigana didn't exist to make the name obvious, would you fly into a rage and refer to 隠者の紫 as "Purple's Hermit" because of "awkward as fuck phrasing"?

Can I get someone else to weigh in on this? Ignore my autism way up above and please think objectively.

206.75.108.139 (talk) 01:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's the thing. Anime and manga pages always crossover. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (OVA) and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders are essentially glorified episode lists seeing as they are covering the exact same content as the manga. Now, the fan translations for the most part are fine. However, we've had plenty of issues in this topic with the release of JoJoveller and like every single English name inside it being scrutinized and hated (like Ermes for example). Now, I will never propose that the renames into the official English translation has used because the official translations within Japan should predominate (I will never say we should replace Oingo with Zenyatta). But the grammar of the episode titles' names is better than what we've had on Wikipedia as an unofficial translation. "Iggy the Fool and Geb's N'Doul" is better than "The Fool Iggy and Geb N'Doul" which had been in use. Is the translation a bit clunky? I'll give you that. But it makes more sense.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:40, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

"[Ryulong] have exhibited bias against fan translations"

Fan translations are irreverent if we have official translations. The chapter titles should use the translations published by the Viz. If they conflict with the episode titles translated by Crunchyroll, then the Viz translations still take president. —Farix (t | c) 02:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Viz's volumes are set up differently from the Japanese release.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:46, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

And how does that affect Viz's translation of the titles? —Farix (t | c) 02:49, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I would set it up to be separate from the original Shueisha titles and their translations, which are partly from the Crunchyroll anime.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand. Are you saying that the Viz titles are not translations? —Farix (t | c) 03:00, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm saying I'd list Viz's 2000s release separately from Shueisha's late 1980s to early 1990s release as part one chapter is technically in a previous arc's volume and the titles are vastly different in content as per the IP's statements that the chapter titled in CR's episode titles as "Iggy the Fool and Geb's N'Doul" is "Iggy the Fool and God Geb" and "Khnum's Oingo and Thoth's Boingo" is "Zenyatta and Mondatta".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't know Wikipedia's current policy on canon-layers or adaptation v. literal, but go back to what I said about there already being THREE different versions of chapter titles on here. There are the original WSJ chapter titles, - which I believe are worthy of at least being archived because they only appear in the magazine and I am grateful to the persons who translated them (they were originally very difficult to find even on JP fan sites) - then there are the tankobon chapter titles, which in turn segue into revised chapter titles which can be found in rereleased volume sets (Bunkobans, magazine-size Soshuhens, Hakosobans aka 'JoJonium', and as it happens the JP episode titles for the anime). Now Ryulong is proposing there be a fourth set for CR and you are thinking about adding one for Viz, Farix, which will likely result in one or more of these sets of titles being gutted (which I do not want). I would rather just leave CR's stuff on the anime page. I'm averse to "adaptation decay" altogether.

Not that I'm a "100% literal" purist either. If there is a pun or reference in an original JP title, then it should be in the translation. See my old edit on Stone_Ocean of "燃えよ竜の夢（ドラゴンズ・ドリーム）" as "Enter the Dragon's Dream". If someone had reverted that, then I'd at least understand why. I don't understand why Ryulong is so vehement about CR taking precedence on this page.

Thanks either way for looking at this again, Farix. 206.75.108.139 (talk) 03:59, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Because the anime is using the "revised titles" and because CR has translated them, we're using those translations.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:20, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

You know, having looked you up, I'm seeing why you're so fanatic about this (Who in their right mind takes TV-Nihon subs as canon?). And now that you're supposedly only able to edit once every 72 hours, I'm not going to take advantage of that and just revert what we've been arguing about. I've said the same thing over and over, and you refuse to listen because you believe CR is infallible and the translation was not made by one of their staffers but clearly was penned by ARAKI HIMSELF. I'd like Farix or someone else to weigh in again. 206.75.108.139 (talk) 04:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I have never made TV-Nihon subs canon. Where the fuck did you read that garbage? And no. I can edit as much as I want. The Farix only cares about having only the Viz translations on this page. All I've done is take Crunchyroll's grammatical structure and used it for the chapter titles because otherwise we are going to have completely different translations across Wikipedia for the exact same phrase just because you don't like it and want this page to just be a manga page with its own separate translations.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:35, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The names of the rest of the Nine Egyptian Gods voice cast already revealed?

The SC Egypt anime (as of this post's date of published) has only finished the Anubis episodes. But, Mariah, Alessi, both D'arby Brothers and Vanilla Ice have the name of their voices for anime already. Can someone show me the source of where they got this info. 50.156.82.190 (talk) 03:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Never mind, that information turned out to be a rumor.50.156.82.190 (talk) 03:54, 7 June 2015 (UTC)