Talk:Stanisław Ostwind-Zuzga

Jew?

In regards to this revert, as our article, as well as the Polish article and external sources, makes clear, the subject of this article converted (baptism) in 1920. He was not a Jew in WWII, and his origin only became known to the communists in interrogation. Thus, while born Jewish, describing the subject as a Jew post 1920 is factually inaccurate.Icewhiz (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, then if you have a scholarly source verifying that he converted to Baptism then add that fact plus source, but don’t remove reference to his Jewish heritage. GizzyCatBella (talk) 19:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

That fact (baptism, conversion to Catholic) is already present in the article. I do suggest you self revert, as there are no sources in the article establishing he was a Jew post 1920, and you reverted factually inaccurate information. This source (which I would cringe at using - however it is available online, and this individual is primarily discussed in such sources due to the Polonia Restituta award in 2018 - he has not been the subject of attention outside such circles) covers his adult baptism as do a few others. We do not, on the English Wikipedia, generally refer to people who convert to a different faith by their previous faith. Note that I did not remove reference to his Jewish heritage - I corrected the factually wrong description of this baptized individual as a Jew.Icewhiz (talk) 20:13, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Is the fact of his baptism sourced to RS? Start from finding a scholarly source first (or two) and then lets discuss his Jewishness. GizzyCatBella (talk) 20:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Is his Jewishness sourced to a RS? There is no inline cite - the sole citation for this in the English article is his Jewish heritage discovered by the communists, not being a Jew. The baptism is already in the article (English and Polish), and I provided a source above. Scholarly sources for this individual do not really exist - coverage is limited to nationalist sources of varying quality - who clearly mention the baptism. As it stands - our article contradicts itself - saying he converted to be a Catholic while saying he was a Jew in the lead (unsourced).Icewhiz (talk) 20:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source? [1] GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:17, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I have an extremely dim view of wpolityce (and would say no in a RSN discussion, or use with great care), however other editors claim that it is a RS, and it is used in some enwiki articles. The Polish article is referencing an IPN book (seems like a popular audience book) for this baptism bit as well. I contend that the very least we have severe doubts he was Jew post 1920 (as we have at least a low quality source making that claim, and no source backing up him being a Jew post 1920). That he was born Jewish is established. We also have sources for the communists uncovering he was born a Jew - which means he was hiding this. Sourcing for this individual is generally poor, and mainly in more nationalist oriented sources - I am not sure he would survive an AfD, but I will not be nomming him. But we should be facctually accurate in the lede and cats.Icewhiz (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source in your opinion that can be used. Yes or not please. [2] GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:33, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I would advocate avoiding use of it in the context of a historical article, and would personally only use it for attributed opinion/interviews. However, when a low quality source contradicts unsourced material in the article - that is a significant indication the unsourced material should be removed.Icewhiz (talk) 21:39, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

So it is an unreliable source is your opinion. So why are you relying on this source in this particular article but dismissing it in others?GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:44, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I am not relying on it (and in fact I said I would cringe to use it). I updated the unsourced lede (the lede does not have to be sourced) to properly reflect the body of the article which stated this individual was baptized. The plwiki and wpolityce articles are supporting evidence here - but are not sufficient for sourcing (the book plwiki cites, while a poor source, is probably usable). As is - following your revert - the lede contains extremely dubious information that is not sourced.Icewhiz (talk) 21:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

You removed everything related to his Jews heritage, this is not an update. GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:58, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

No, I did not. Look again - I left "highest ranked officer of Jewish origin" in the lede. Note that this source, which we presently cite in the article (though again - I would cringe at using it - but it is available online) - says he was baptized in 1920.Icewhiz (talk) 22:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

O, yes. You did. Ok, then, so wPolitice and Polonia Christiana are reliable sources, correct? GizzyCatBella (talk) 23:50, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Both are very low quality sources that should not usually be used for an article on a historical figure - however coverage of this individual seems to be limited to such outlets (and we are presently using pch24, plwiki (which this article seems to be a translation of) is using wPolitice).Icewhiz (talk) 04:06, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I’m sorry Icewhiz, but we either use wPolitice as a source or not. You seem to be inconsistent. So is wPolityce a reliable source we can rely %100 from now on? GizzyCatBella (talk) 04:33, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

A person educated in a certain culture belongs at least partially to this culture. A baptism doesn't change someones culture but a religion. Xx236 (talk) 06:25, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Born on April 26, 1899 in Warsaw as Szmul Ostwind, in the Jewish family of Wolf Ostwind and Rebecca née Saudel. GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:53, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I added a source for the conversion based on - Nacjonalizmy różnych narodów perspektywa politologiczno-religioznawcza, publisher Księgarnia Akademicka, book chapter by Wojciech Muszyński.Icewhiz (talk) 06:24, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: - this edit doesn't clearly state in the lede that nature of this individual's Jewish background. Furthermore, the category "Polish Jew" is incorrect for an individual who converted to the Catholic church in 1920.Icewhiz (talk) 07:19, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Says who? Is there a policy or something? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:43, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

A specific policy for "who is a Jew"? Jeez, I don't know if anyone got that specific. Calling a former Jew Jewish in our voice (via the category) would seem to violate a number of core policies (V, NPOV, and NOR).Icewhiz (talk) 08:07, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

There are plenty of Catholic and Buddhist Jews Icewhiz,and they are even Jewish Muslims who identify as such.Judaism and Jewish identity are not locked, unless you subscribe to hardline orthodoxy views--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:04, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

This individual, who hod his former Jewish identity, and while being tortured insisted on being a Pole, not Jewish, made it clear he identified as catholic. Converts are usually referred to by their new faith, bot their former one.Icewhiz (talk) 03:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC) Kicked over to wikiproject Judiasm.Icewhiz (talk) 03:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I believe his point is that "Jewishness" isn't just a matter of faith.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

There are secular Jews. There are Jews who proscribe to various new age stuff. There are also atheist Jews. However, the mainstream view is that Jews who choose to convert to Christianity are Christians (or a different faith), and not Jews.Icewhiz (talk) 05:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Article name

Subject to my understanding was named "Stanisław Ostwind". Zuzga was one of his aliases. Any objections to renaming the article to Stanisław Ostwind, and mentioning the alias separately of the subject's name?Icewhiz (talk) 07:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

No. GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, most sources use the "Ostwin-Zuzga" formulation and that's what we go by, per WP:COMMONNAME.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:15, 20 June 2018 (UTC)