Talk:Stafford Heginbotham

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replaced discussion[edit]

User:RedJulianG40 made This edit giving the summary "Removal of information that has already been stated and has been inserted without citations)". As far as I can see the deleted text explains Heginbotham's chief notability in relation to the events, is not repetition, and is a abridged version of what is in the main body of the article, with references, as is Wikipedia policy.Overagainst (talk) 16:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC) User:RedJulianG40, I am afraid that this and the ting about the laughter is not really encyclopedic editing. As you seem to be ploughing ahead with your own idiosyncratic idea of what should be in the article after having made undiscussed deletions of what others have added, don't be surprised if your accumulated comtribution is not treated as sacrosanct.Overagainst (talk) 17:17, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:Overagainst Why are you continuing to make edits that duplicate information on this page? (RedJulianG40 (talk) 17:04, 27 April 2015 (UTC))[reply]


User:Overagainst I've again removed duplicate information that you keep inserting - why have you also removed the famous quotation from Heginbotham about football being the Opera of the people? (RedJulianG40 (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2015 (UTC))[reply]

Complaints.[edit]

RedJulianG40, The lede is supposed to summarize the article, which necessarily involves duplication, and it is your job to know that before you make edits especially big deletions to the lede on the grounds of duplication. The lede needs to have his notorious reputation for fire-setting and insurance fraud, because that is a major part of his notability. And I included the opera quote you like in my edit, see ref 3 you didn't look hard enough. I think you should read up on policy and guidance before you try editing on anything else beyond minor matters of his family members and where he is buried (which are arguable) or altering the phrasing and suchlike.

My understanding of policy is you can't do what you did here, You can't remove discussions from talk pages like that, so please put it back. If there is going to any more of this from you I will have to consider whether to take it to a dispute board.Overagainst (talk) 19:11, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Overagainst Why remove all of the fires that he has links to? It is not an accusation, the source is reputable and they are links - please revert this amend. And if someone has been convcited of the fires - then add this in to the article, don't just delete the list (RedJulianG40 (talk) 12:51, 28 April 2015 (UTC)).[reply]
User:Overagainst You're right yes that the lede needs to summarise the article - but what you did was just duplicate chunks from further down the article. Which is not what the lede is for. I see you have now altered the lede to reflect the article. I would argue that Heginbotham's notoriety comes from the previous fires. It doesn't. It comes from him being Chairman of the football club at the time of the fire. The book revelations have been argued and this should be reflected in the article - you seem to only want to point out the negatives about Heginbotham - when you should be giving an unbiased opinion - something which you seem incapable of doing. I've taken the liberty of updating the article to give a more rounded picture - which is what you should have done in the first place. (RedJulianG40 (talk) 15:06, 29 April 2015 (UTC)).[reply]

Questionable motives[edit]

User:Overagainst You seem to be against trying to give a balanced historical view of Stafford Heginbotham, I have to question your motives when it comes to contributions to this page as you have only added negative revelations about the person and not a rounded picture - which is very easy to find with a long tail search. You can make all the threats you like but I will continue to add to this page in an unbiased way. (RedJulianG40 (talk) 15:57, 1 May 2015 (UTC)).[reply]

Deletions[edit]

User:Overagainst Why have you made a number of deletions that give a rounded picture of Stafford Heginbotham and have valid citations, Specifically I ask you to explain why you have deleted the following:

Personal life and death Heginbotham married Lorna Silverwood[19] and had two sons, James and Simon, who still reside in West Yorkshire.[20] In 1995, following a heart transplant operation at St George's Hospital in Tooting, Heginbotham died. He was 61.[21][22] His funeral was held at Bradford Cathedral in early May 1995 and he was interred at Undercliffe Cemetery overlooking Valley Parade.[23]

Stafford was famous for wearing a Toupée, speaking of his time at Bradford City A.F.C., former player John Hendrie recalled that: "We all lived in each other’s pockets back then. Stafford Heginbotham would come in the dressing room before a game and offer us £200 for a few drinks that night if we won. We wouldn’t see him again until 2.50pm the following week and he’d make it double or quits. Looking at his “syrup”, we’d always ask when he was going to pay (toupee) – it would go straight over his head!".[24]

A keen cricket fan, in 1977 Heginbotham created the "Stafford Heginbotham Castle Trophy Highest Aggregate Wickets" in the Bradford Cricket League. The trophy is still running to this date.[25]

Stuart McCall Biography In his autobiography, The Real McCall, former Bradford City A.F.C. player Stuart McCall talks of agreeing a tax-free payment with Stafford Heginbotham which was not honoured by Jack Tordoff. McCall took the club to the Football League and, after a second hearing, won his case. Speaking about the issue, Jack Tordoff stated that: "Stuart was very close to Stafford Heginbotham, and he and Stuart arranged a deal while they were on a club end-of-season holiday. Stuart signed a three-year contract, but Stafford promised him privately that if we didn't get promotion he could leave the club. Stafford also promised him a signing-on fee of £50,000, and that went into his contract, but Stafford didn't tell the board that this sum was tax-free. At the end of the season we allowed Stuart to break his contract and leave for Everton to further his career because a promise had been made to him. Stuart took us to a tribunal. The tribunal ruled in favour of the club, but Stuart appealed against this decision and got Stafford to go with him. Stafford told the tribunal he had promised a tax-free payment to Stuart so the club paid up on the same day."[16]

The fires linked to Heginbotham - if you have proof that someone was convicted then add it to the information, don't just delete the list.

Fires linked to Heginbotham The following are fires that are allegedly linked to Stafford Heginbotham.[18]

May 1967 - Fire in Stafford Heginbotham’s factory at three-storey Cutler Heights Lane, Bradford. April 1968 - Fire at Genefoam Ltd, managing director Stafford Heginbotham, Cutler Heights Lane. August 1970; Store-room explosion at Matgoods, founded by Heginbotham in Wyke, Bradford. December 1971; tenant fire at Castle Mills building, Cleckheaton, owned by Heginbotham. August 1977; fire at Yorkshire Knitting Mills in Heginbotham-owned Douglas Mills Building in Bradford. December 1977; fire at four-storey Coronet Marketing factory, Leeds Road, Bradford, Coronet Marketing a subsidiary of Tebro Toys, owned by Heginbotham. November 1977; fire with toxic fumes at Douglas Mills factory. June 1981; fire in plastics factory at Heginbotham-owned Douglas Mills.

Can you explain why you have deleted these points otherwise it is I who will be making a complaint against you for just adding negative information about Stafford: (RedJulianG40 (talk) 16:08, 1 May 2015 (UTC)).[reply]

You may be a newish editor but if you won't read the policy and guidance on editing I can't be available to explain why things are done. You now know not to remove other peoples contributions from the talk page and ignore them when they ask you to put it back. The accusation that he was a mass murderer (lighting a fire in the stand would be murder if deaths resulted whether or not he intended to kill anyone) is not mine and is the reason the article exists.
About deletions from the article that is to a great extent a matter of opinion, however Hegginbotham only has an article about him because of his connection with the fire. That is his notability and the encyclopedic content in the article will be largely in relation to it. So the article is not intended as a rounded portrait of the man. His family details, football transfer dealings, and banter about his wig don't really rate a mention in my opinion. He isn't really a personality in his own right and that sort of thing can be in the article to show how he was perceived at the time but it should be quite limited. I did say he was a popular figure. The fans are supposed to have called him 'Central heating' as a joke about him being an arsonist, so that probably should be be mentioned.
I don't think a laundry list of fires belongs in the article. If you want to get the book 56 by Martin Fletcher then you will be in a better position to add things, but from what I can gather from his former accountant, who has been quoted recently, Heginbotham did not own one of those properties at the time it had a fire. The excepts of 56 I could access seemed to indicate there were another 3 of those fires (not clear exactly which ones) that were attributable to arsonists who the police identified. So maybe 4 of the fires were very doubtful as linked to him. Fletcher seems to be hinting Higginbotham orchestrated even the fires that others were found to have set, which I think is unlikely. But there is no doubt he had an awful lot of insurance claims for fires, and Fletcher says there was another, at a nightclub in the 60's, that he couldn't pin down but journalist Paul Foot said was linked to Hegginbotham
The most negative thing is not spelled out in the article, because as Paul Foot (who knew about five of the fires) said in the Mirror back in the May 1985, it's more that a little odd that Heginbotham did not act on the council warnings about the possibility of accumulated rubbish under the stand causing a major fire, considering how much involvement he had with his premises burning down in the past and the rumours of fraud and arson that dogged him. In view of what we now know, it is very sinister. Overagainst (talk) 09:39, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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