Talk:Squatting in Australia/Archive 1

To alleviate confusion

Right now there's this page and also Squatting (Australia) but I've requested the latter be moved to Squattocracy. If it hasn't been carried out yet, the request is here. Mujinga (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with this re-arrangement of the articles and their content (so it's not uncontroversial). There are two types of squatting presently being discussed in this article, one being the historical early land grab prior to land being opened for selection (and appears to be an Australian term for this behaviour) and the other generally in relation to illegally living in otherwise unocccupied buildings either through being unable to afford their own or trying to make a political point about housing (this form of squatting occurs in many countries). IIRC there were previously two articles. I don't think it's helpful to combine them in a single article as the two are different and occur in different circumstances. A person wishing to link the term would be unlikely to be undecided which was needed. Similarly "squattocracy" is not a neutral term; it's pejorative, so we should not be using it to simply state a fact that a person was squatting in the historical sense, as in Cullin-la-ringo massacre. As the previous article indicated, not all squatters were "squattocracy", a distinction now lost. It's useful to be able to link to the term "squattocracy" where it is appropriate to use it, but given it's an opinionated word, we would not normally use it on Wikipedia other in situation where an opinion was being reported, e.g. The opposition politicians jeered at Joe Bloggs and called him a member of the "squattocracy". Kerry (talk) 12:11, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Squattocracy is a particular mess: the text is about squatting generally, but the title refers to a much more narrow concept that probably doesn't need its own article unless someone wanted to really dig out the books. I think the old titles worked unless someone has a better idea: "Squatting (Australia)" covers the specifically Australian concept, and "Squatting in Australia" covers the international concept as applied in Australia. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:40, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Hellos. OK i think there's a bit of confusion going on, so i'll start from the beginning, please assume good faith here and i'll do the same.

• There was a page called Squatting (pastoral) which i think was broken off from Squatting a LONG time ago because it discussed the australian colonial phenomenon of wealthy landowners squatting land to farm livestock. In 2008, I queried the name of this page and nobody answered.
• More recently someone changed the name of the page to Squatting (Australia) with zero talk page discussion which was in my opinion a bad move since it didn't talk about contemporary squatting. The edit summary was "describes an australian phenomenon"
• This week, I broke off the entry about Squatting in Australia from Squatting.
• I asked one of the very few people who has communicated on the Squatting (Australia) talkpage in the last decade about why they didn't like the name Squatting (pastoral) since they had tagged the article for unspecified bias and also asked what they would like to rename the page to and they said "I have no real opinion on the suggested name change"
• i looked at the article and at that stage the lede was as follows:

In Australian history, a squatter was typically a man, either a free settler or ex-convict, who occupied a large tract of Crown land in order to graze livestock. Initially often having no legal rights to the land, they gained its usage by being the first (and often the only) settlers in the area. Eventually, the term squattocracy, a play on "aristocracy", developed to refer to some of these squatters.

• so my conclusion was that squattocracy would work as the page title.

That's where we were at before the change, now we have had the change and both Kerry and The Drover's Wife object so i'm happy to discuss, nice that someone finally takes an interest after over a decade.

• To reply to Kerry, you said "IIRC there were previously two articles" well no, but now there are. I hope the above clears that up. They haven't been combined. Is squattocracy a pejorative term? That would be good to include in the article, whatever name it ends up with, as a sourced statement.

• To reply to The Drover's Wife: I don't think a revert will help because having two pages, one called Squatting (Australia) and the other Squatting in Australia, is pretty confusing.

Moving forwards: Squatting (pastoral) was already objected to because it described a phenomenon not specific to Australia. So we could go for that, and then expand it, but i think the australian page stands on its on. So i would say the ball is in your court(s) The Drover's Wife and Kerry, feel free to suggest a better name than Squattocracy for the historical page and we can change it to something that works for everyone. I'm not particularly tied to Squattocracy, although your arguments don't really persuade me either. I wouldn't be in favour of changing Squatting in Australia since in my mind it's a good name for a page about squatting in australia, modern and historical, broken off from the main page squatting in the same way as Squatting in England and Wales and Squatting in the United States have been already done. In any case please make a fresh suggestion! Mujinga (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

I am perfectly OK with squatting having the contemporary meaning of people occupying unoccupied buildings (which are known at least here in Australia as "squats" (which could link to squatting). Anyone who writes Australian history articles needs to be able to link the word "squatter" to an article that conveys the correct historical use of that term; I don't think it's that common to use the verb form for the historical Australian purpose. They are not occupying other people's land so much as occupying Crown land which has not yet been released for "selection" (a selector is NOT a squatter, but the opposite really, and many squatters did later purchase the land they were occupying but the term "squatter" would tend to stick to the person). We generally say "Joe Bloggs was a squatter" not "Joe Bloggs was squatting". As has already been pointed out, it seems New Zealand has the same term (and perhaps others) so the old squatting (pastoral or perhaps even better squatter (pastoral) would suffice for the historic purpose. squattocracy is not neutral and not all squatters would be regarded as squattocracy, only the ones who became very rich and powerful or who put on airs and graces. Many squatters made a positive contribution by opening up a district well ahead of the government; they took a lot of risks in doing so (there was no protection, there were no services, they had to be entirely self-sufficient). Given the size of Australia (our national anthem talks of "our boundless plains"), I suspect the early squatters did not really see themselves as acting unlawfully but rather wanted "first mover advantage" and were prepared to take risks to get it. They would subsequently purchase their land once it was available for sale, but they usually got the first option to do so. So sqattocracy still needs to exist but only to link to appropriate uses of this opinionated term. Kerry (talk) 14:59, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone object to squatter (pastoral) for the shitshow presently at squattocracy? The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:02, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Support squatter (pastoral), specifically for occupying crown/vacant land (in Australia, New Zealand or anywhere else]]. I'd prefer a different title for ongoing pastoral occupation on crown leases and freehold, but don't presently see an appropriate place as Pastoralism doesn't seem to quite hit the mark. I'm not sure that the current generation of owners of a cattle station would be called "squatters", even if their 4xgreat grandparents were the first lessees. Sheep station and cattle station are better articles, with a somewhat arbitrary distinction based on the current livestock. --Scott Davis ^Talk 06:19, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Comment please move discussion to the talk page of the page you wish to rename. Mujinga (talk) 09:16, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Squattocracy which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:30, 15 May 2019 (UTC)