Talk:Soul in the Bible

old

This article discusses a Hebrew word and Hebrew culture, and yet writes the word G-d in fuill. I find this rather upsetting. Please would the Judaic project take a look at this?

This article is based on The Companion Bible - what is that? Why does it have no entry? 149.254.217.232 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 10:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC).

This page is over the top fanboyism for the "Companion Bible", whatever that is. I can appreciate the need for making clear distinctions in the translation of problematic terms, but seriously?:

"in 229 passages the English reader has hitherto been left in ignorance of the fact. The English word "soul" is in every occurrence the rendering of the Hebrew Nephesh, except in Job 30:15 and Isa. 57:16. See the notes. the time has come to "open the book", and let it speak for itself. Henceforth, every one who uses The Companion Bible will have complete information as to the facts, and can use it in determining his definitions, making his own classifications, and formulating his doctrines as to the Biblical use of the word"

Maybe the author and the Companion bible should just get a room. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.190.52.27 (talk) 02:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Factual accuracy / unbalanced / OR

The majority of this article's content is unencyclopedic. The factual accuracy of much of it is questionable, there is loads of original research, and it is heavily biased towards "soul-sleep" / conditionalist theology (a minority viewpoint held in some sects of Christianity). The article needs a complete rewrite. Tonicthebrown (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

"Soul-sleep" is not mentioned in nor intended by the article. It simply quotes the Biblical definition of soul (nephesh/psyche) and quotes texts which say that such souls die and are not immortal. And it quotes the Bible saying that 'this mortal must put on immortality'. If there is any other biblical definition of soul, please make a note of it in the article. If there are any Biblical texts which say that souls (nephesh/psyche) don't die and are immortal and that no one needs to 'put on immortality', then balance out the article. --8teenfourT4 (talk) 04:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Err.... with all due respect, I don't know how you can argue that '"soul-sleep" is not mentioned in nor intended by the article'. There is a section called Consciousness after death which ends with the conclusion: "There is no consciousness after death". This is a direct assertion of the doctrine of soul sleep. And it is completely POV, because only a minority of Christians believe in soul-sleep. The vast majority of Catholics, Orthodox and mainstream Protestants believe that the soul is conscious after death. Tonicthebrown (talk) 07:33, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The article also notes that the Bible says that there is no soul after death. So, if there is no soul, then this non-existent soul could not be asleep. And the phrase "soul-sleep" is thereby an oxymoron, and certainly not addressed in the article. This article is not concerned with what the majority may or may not believe. (That you can find here: Soul) It is only concerned with how the Bible uses the words nephesh and psyche. There is no reference to what people think, but only to the Biblical use of the words and showing the Biblical meaning. It is hard to get more NPOV. That people choose to agree or disagree with what the Bible says itself is something else altogether. What the Bible says and what people think or believe it says are two different issues. --8teenfourT4 (talk) 15:42, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The Christian Doctrine of Immortality

We should incorpore this:

Salmond: The Christian Doctrine of Immortality

The article now is biased.

94.21.235.177 (talk) 01:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Are there no genuine Biblical/Hebrew scholars around to edit this cr*pulous article?

This thing is a real mess, and I wish I had the expertise to edit it properly... It's making me sorry that I voted to "keep" the entry when it was nominated for deletion.

There must be hundreds of real, qualified Biblical and/or historical scholars out there who can do justice to this article... if the lunatics can just momentarily step out the way.

(Lunatics: look at it this way -- if mainstream editors manage to make this into a respectable entry, maybe others will actually read it. And *then* you can put all your loony theories and ideas into the article, and they will be read for a few hours before being reverted. Trust me, your audience will be larger.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by StrangeAttractor (talk • contribs) 06:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

It appears one of the main previous editors has been banned so be bold andycjp (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do.--Taiwan boi (talk) 15:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

A Later Note by OP 5 years Later... It's much, much better than it was, and I'm happy to see that. I wish some Biblical scholars would take the time to write a fuller essay (this is more like a hodgepodge of facts and ideas), but at least the current entry is sober and scholarly, even if it doesn't really give a substantial summary of the evolving ideas of "soul" throughout that large section of human history that constitutes what we in the West call "Biblical History". Ah, well, there's no pay in this work... StrangeAttractor (talk) 05:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Biased

Why are the links biased, (i.e., leaning towards a conscience afterlife?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.124.80.206 (talk) 03:39, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Immortality

The Immortality section has the following opening paragraph:

The concept of an immaterial soul separate from and surviving the body is common today but was not found in ancient Hebrew beliefs.[2] The word never means an immortal soul[7] or an incorporeal part of the human being[8] that can survive death of the body as the spirit of dead.[9]

The Old Testament of the Bible in Psalm 23:6 contradicts this introductory statement in its entirety. Psalm 23:6 states:

Surely goodness and mercy will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever. (Psalm 23:6)

Given that Psalms is in the Old Testament, and that David states, "I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever," this is a clear Judaic statement on immortality found in the Old Testament. This is also one of the most commonly memorized scriptures in Christianity teaching immortality. I propose changing the opening paragraph to the opposite meaning:

"Psalm 23:6 presents the concept of a soul living forever in the LORD's presence:

Surely goodness and mercy will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever. (Psalm 23:6) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgrimm (talk • contribs) 23:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you read the source material for the intro? If not I suggest you do that before making any further comments.

Your two texts above support the idea that the saved will live forever with God, but NOT that they inherently have an immortal soul. There is a big difference between those two ideas. The New Testament tells us that the "mortal must put on immortality" and that the receiving of immortality will happen at the resurrection, not before. If there is an immortal soul it would not need to "put on immortality" later at some point because it would be immortal already. CedricElijahHenry (talk) 19:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem with quoting "forever" – in Psalm 23:6 and other places – is that the word "forever" (or "for ever" KJV) is sometimes if not often a word meaning a time period that is part of this life here ONLY, not "eternally"; however, you would not know this from most versions of the Bible (in English) today which follow tradition. Misty MH (talk) 23:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Blocked sockpuppet

Johnjonesjr (talk · contribs) is blocked as a sockpuppet. Dougweller (talk) 15:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Out of context

No verse can teach anything unless it is understood within the context of the whole Bible and especially, in this case, Gen 2:7. The following verses appear in the article without reference to context.

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?" (Mat 16:26)

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mat 10:28)

That is the reason why I supplied the Biblical context about the life and death of mankind, both "righteous" and "wicked" and provided an exegetical interpretation of these texts that fit with the context. Any implication drawn from a Bible verse that contradicts the context, especially Gen 2:7, is eisegesis.

This following statement is not supported by the verse given.

"St. Paul urges Christians to live according to spirit/soul and not according to flesh/body. 2Co 5:4

2 Cor. 5:4 says nothing about living according to spirit or flesh, so I am removing it. Even if an appropriate text is found, how it fits within the Biblical context should be given. HoratioNelsonJackson (talk) 20:19, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

The 'exegetical interpretation' you provided seems to be your own, as you did not source it. Have you looked into any for those verses that we could actually source? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:37, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

While at first glance it would seem that "(Mat 16:26)" and "(Mat 10:28)" refer to something other than the body itself, it may not necessarily imply "soul" as typically thought of today. The phrase "able to destroy both soul and body in [gehenna]" could, I suppose, mean both "life and body". The word for "hell" there, Greek gehenna, is usually believed by scholars to refer to Ge-Hinnom, one of the valleys just outside of Jerusalem, or to a section within Ge-Hinnom/Ge-hinnom/Gehinnom. The phrase "lose his soul" could refer to one's inner and/or outer being. Misty MH (talk) 23:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I suggest that 1 Cor 15.44 is the clearest indication of how Christians believe they will exist in heaven, which the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible translates as "spiritual body." I find that as of 31 May 2016 the article mostly reinforces this understanding and I thank all who have contributed to its present version.Jzsj (talk) 16:50, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Expanding. Inclusive of differing views. Soul vs. spirit

The article really needs expanding, and should be inclusive of the various differing views of the words for "soul" in the Bible.

Also, it may be thought that the word "soul" might be thought – at least today, if not in Bible times – to mean something similar to the word "spirit", and that in that sense, the word "spirit" may be thought of in terms of "soul". The use seems to be found in the Bible (more below).

In one instance, the word "spirit" is used almost exactly like how many people think of the immaterial soul today: Hebrews 12:23 NKJV - "23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,"; and yet, the book of Hebrews says that "soul" (?) and "spirit" may be divided: Hebrews 4:12 NKJV - "12 For the word ... [is] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Some writers may have used the words or concepts interchangeably.

There are other words in the "New Testament" (NT) used for "body" and "flesh"; so using the Greek word psuche may have had certain implications that meant something other than simply a body, flesh, or even corpse.

Words in Greek and Hebrew for "spirit" basically mean air – or maybe wind, breath, gas – and are used in places as metaphors for something else other than air itself.

Forms of the word "soul" appear in the Bible up to hundreds of time, but it varies widely per English version. The word "soul" in English is usually more often in older English version. For Example, in the English, forms of the word "soul" appear: "462 times ... in the KJV" (1611, 1769); "324 times ... in the NKJV" (1982); "277 times ... in the NASB" (1995 edition); "252 times ... in the ESV" (2001, 2007); "90 times ... in the NIV" (1973, 1978, 1984, 2011); "218 times ... in the RSV" (1971); "504 times ... in the YLT" (Young's Literal Translation—not sure which version: 1862 (based on "Textus Receptus (TR) and the Majority Text (MT)"), 1887 (based on "the 1881 Westcott–Hort text"), or 1898 ("based on the TR")).*

• The ellipses are there because it "miscounts" the number of verses using the search method I did.

Misty MH (talk) 00:15, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Pre Babylonian separation of body and soul

Disagreement with the first line in the opening paragraph

Some verses that show separation of immaterial entity to material pre-Babylon

ESV - Ecclesiastes 3:16-22 "Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?"

Also ESV - Ecclesiastes 12:5 ".....man is going to his eternal home...." v7 "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

In this you have the writer saying that their will be a time of judgment in the future, and that the spirit of man goes upward. This of course could be interpreted that the body will someday go upward, but seeing as it follows that all return to dust, would it not indicate a separation of spirit and body? Especially after looking at the verses in chapter 12. Ecclesiastes shows the mindset of life as if there is no God, the futility, the despair, always seeking satisfaction from pleasure, from justice, and from righteousness, but never finding it. But also throws in the thought of there being a God and things mattering, and their being pure pleasure, justice and righteousness someday. (the past 2 sentences are an extremely quick, feeble attempt at help in understanding the verses as if you've never read. Do not take them to far, or as actual summary and explanation of what Ecclesiastes is about.)

Why soul way more likely than not was present in Hebrew text pre-Babylon.

The Hebrew word nephesh, translated soul by the Greek Septuagint also would be evidence that such a thought existed long before the Babylonian exile. "Living Being" and "soul" are rather close no? English has many words that can mean all sorts of different things, so does Hebrew. Love in English can mean quite a different amount of things, but still be close in meaning. You can love your wife, and you can love your kids. They are both different things, and the Greek has different words for each. The existence of the different types still exist even if we have the same word. Perhaps a more accurate statement would be that the Old Testament Hebrew pre-Babylon did not have a unique word that only meant soul. The Septuagint translators all thought the Hebrew word meant soul, as mentioned in the opening paragraph. Yet it did not exist pre-Babylonian exile according to the first sentence. How can you claim it does not mean soul when all those translators thought so? What evidence is there for that viewpoint? Many of the verses make little sense if it does not and means "body" (ex Psalm 31:9). If someone says they love their children, it wouldn't make sense to say and would be perverted to be like, oh they mean they love them as someone would love their spouse. Not that the Septuagint translators were perfect, yet all of them came to the same conclusion in the meaning of the Hebrew word nephesh being the word for soul in Greek. They would have chosen a different word had they thought it meant something different, no?

Not having a unique word for soul =/ the thought not existing and to assume so is faulty logic. Nephesh can have different meanings, and if looking at the verses the word is found, it is most likely the case that one of them is soul. Traviscove (talk) 03:21, 7 May 2021 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Traviscove (talk • contribs) 19:39, 30 March 2021 (UTC) --Traviscove (talk) 03:25, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

A Jehovah witness or seventh day Adventist must of wrote this because the both believe in the unbiblical doctrine of soul sleep.

Paul says to depart is to be with the Lord. He doesn’t say you cease to exist and are annihilated when you die! 67.235.129.176 (talk) 12:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)