Talk:Somalia Battalion

Cherrypicking

Mhorg deleted the bit about the neo-Nazi patches from the following paragraph:

In April the leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, Denis Pushilin, awarded medals to the Somalia Battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Timur Kurilkin, and to Senior Lieutenant Roman Vorobyov, for their actions in Mariupol. Pushilin said they had led a unit that killed more than 250 Ukrainian soldiers, whom he called "Nazis". However, news outlets noted that Vorobyov himself was wearing patches affiliated with neo-Nazism: the Totenkopf used by the 3rd SS Panzer Division, and the valknut.

Those sources are all about the neo-Nazi patches, they're called "Pro-Russian Fighter With Nazi Patches Gets Medal for Killing 'Nazis'" and "A soldier with neo-Nazi symbols on his arm was given a medal". Excluding the main point of the sources is blatant WP:CHERRYPICKING which is against Wikipedia guidelines. ~Asarlaí 11:48, 25 April 2022 (UTC) ~Asarlaí 11:48, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

As I have already written in the motivation for revert, it makes no sense to mention a case of this type. If, on the other hand, there were RS who speak of a massive and organized presence of Russian neo-Nazis within the Somalia Battalion, then I am 100% in favor of including this part in the article. For now this remains an isolated case and not worthy of being reported in an encyclopedia, which should tell some important facts. Mhorg (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

If the awarding ceremony is considered worth mentioning in this article (and I guess you consider it is worth, as you did not removed the entire paragrapsh altogether), the incident with neo-nazi insignia noticed in the ceremony must be in the article as per neutral point of view requirement, as reliable sources mention it when reporting about the event as the most notable thing about the event. Birdofpreyru (talk) 18:00, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

It's definitely noteworthy/due, as indicated by coverage in a bunch of RSs. Shouldn't extrapolate anything from it (e.g. that the battalion itself is neo-Nazi) in our voice. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:36, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this is due, this is really a minor event that doesn't not belong to an enciclopedia. This is not a widespread phenomenom. Mhorg (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, if you insist to be pedantic about this article, we can see it through. Birdofpreyru (talk) 21:46, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Since such a thing also happened to Zelensky,[1][2] would you agree with including this news in his article as well? In my opinion this stuff shouldn't be in both articles. Mhorg (talk) 12:53, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't mind it all. My position is simple: as long as it has happened, and is verifiable by RS, it can be mentioned in the appropriate place of an article without any misleading. There is no need to save space in an electronic encyclopedia, and no need for you or me to decide whether certain thing is noteworthy or not. Present facts, and leave it to the reader to draw the conclusions. If it was a single post of Zelensky or single nazi of Somalia battalion, a mention of this will soon be lost in the body of other information on the subject. If it is not a single incident / case, and each case is separately mentioned in the article, at some point the general trend will be visible and the topic will deserve a higher attention in the article. Birdofpreyru (talk) 13:05, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Talk page lead/bannerspace

I've added the talk page lead/bannerspace template as it was missing. It includes the Arbitration Committee's discretionary sanctions notice for users who edit pages related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans. IndigoBeach (talk) 09:56, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Sourcing problems

Why you are using this source when it makes no mention of Somalia Battalion? I see it mentions Paul Gubarev, but how that is relevant here? This is how you are violating WP:SYNTH. Segaton (talk) 11:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Segaton: I use it because I also wrote that Gubarev is a neo-nazi, so I sourced such statement.--Karma1998 (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

No need to drag him unnecessarily unless the source is actually talking about Somalia Battalion. See WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.

Can you also verify the statement "was hailed as a "true fascist" by separatist leader Pavel Gubarev", because Republica does not say that. Segaton (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Segaton: I remember reading that statement in the article. I'll check it again, hoping that paywall does not cut me off.--Karma1998 (talk) 11:48, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Karma1998: Andrea Palmeri is not fighting in Somalia Battalion, let alone him being recognized as "true fascist" by Paul. According to this source, Palmeri could be recruited by Wagner but I can see no connection with Somalia Battalion. Segaton (talk) 11:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Segaton: I have checked the article on la Repubblica and it states what I wrote. Specifically: “Un vero fascista italiano si è unito alla nostra milizia” annunciava trionfante su Facebook a settembre del 2014, allo scoppio della guerra del Donbass, Pavel Gubarev, all’epoca governatore dell’autoproclamata Repubblica popolare di Donetsk. ("A true Italian fascist has joined our militia," Pavel Gubarev, then governor of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, triumphally announced on Facebook in September 2014, at the outbreak of the Donbass War.).-Karma1998 (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Karma1998: What he exactly meant from "our milita"? Paul Gubarev is not a leader of Sparta Battalion nor its founder. You need to find source which is explicit about Palmeri being a part of Somalia Battalion. Segaton (talk) 12:23, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Segaton: still, it cannot be denied that Gubarev hailed him as a "true fascist".Karma1998 (talk) 12:25, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

But why it has to be covered all over here when this subject has nothing to do with Gubarev and Palmeri? Segaton (talk) 12:26, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I had given you the opportunity to describe how your edits about Republic and Republica are actually related to this subject because I thought that I could be wrong since I can't speak Italian nor I have access to that paywall. But you haven't proven that your edits about Somalia claiming themselves to be anti-fascists and also the mention about Palmeri being in Somalia Battalion are actually supported by your sources. I have removed it now as it is not supported by any of the sources. Discuss here instead of reverting next time. Segaton (talk) 13:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Note: Repubblica is a RS (but strongly anti-Russian). For example in the article used by "Karma1998" promoted a fake-news:[3] "A photo shows the leaders of the secessionist republic Denis Pushilin decorating Colonel Timur Kurilkin who sports the SS "death's head" and the Valknut.". No, wasn't Kurilkin but Roman Vorobyov. Mhorg (talk) 13:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Mhorg: la Repubblica is a liberal democratic newspaper, so it is obviously anti-Putin, like The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian and so on. However, you are right, the article makes a mistake about the identity of the Nazi guy.--Karma1998 (talk) 21:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)