Talk:Sinan

Meaning of "Sinan"[edit]

Sinan DOES NOT mean "spear" in Arabic. The sources produced are both also wikis who can be editted or added to by anyone, and so a simplified corruption of the most commonly believed meaning. This understanding in itself is flawed on a number of levels:

1) Spear in Arabic is NOT Sinan. It is "Romh" رمح

2) 'Spearhead' in Arabic is called "Sin" - a synonym of "tooth". The plural 'spearheads' would therefore become "Asnaan" (as corresponding for the word for 'teeth'), not Sinan.

3) Sinan Bin Thabit was perhaps the first person who had the name Sinan. He was a pre-Arabic and Pre-Islamic Aramaic-speaking Mandean, whose son learn some Arabic in his adulthood.

I am currently very short of time, but I will soon try to back all these with evidence. I am an Arabic speaker and consulted a modern, classic and pre-Islamic Arabic Language expert in forumlating these ideas. I understand none of that constitutes proof here, but like I said, I will try to find some later on. Till then, please bring reliable proof if you want to change edit the Sinan Name page, rather than other wikis. TC, Pink Princess (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the "Arabic-English Dictionary" of Hans Wehr, edited by J Milton Cowan, fourth edition, it has:

سنان sinān spearhead

In "A Dictionary of Muslim Names", by Salahuddin Ahmed, Hurst and Company, London, 1999, it has

Sinan سنان spear. Umm Sinan, a sahaabia

Sinan-ud-Din ... spear of the religion

It also has a footnote:

'Spear's point, a name of high antiquity'. See Colebrook T. E. 'On the Proper Names of the Mohammadans', Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, XXI, p. 246 (1881).

So there seems to be some basis for the belief. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 18:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking again, I am amazed at the statement "The sources produced are both also wikis who can be editted or added to by anyone", since the sources which have been deleted are both published books, which have been written and edited only by their stated authors. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 19:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it could very well be in the Arabic language, though must be Classical Arabic at least, as I myself am an Araboc speaker and have never heard Sinan being used in conjunction to and especially not instead of 'Rumh' for spear. This fact needs to be stated. Secondly, Sinan Ibn Thabit was a speaker of Aramaic - a pre-Arabic semetic language. It is highly unlikely he will be named after a word from a much newer language without it's existance in his mother tongue. Therefore it is likely Sinan is a carry-over word from Aramaic to Arabic, and I'll try find Aramic dictionary sources to see if that's the case of not. And finally, don't change my section on it's religious connotations. What proof do you have that it was spread by 'Muslims' and specifically which Muslims of what era and empire are you talking about? Yes, the name was spread by Turks in relatively very recent history, and their Islamic Ottoman empire solely because of Mimar Sinan. With Arabs, the name is (perhaps most extensively) used by non-Muslim Christians and Mandeans due to it's pre-Islamic usage. Do not alter these changes until you have sources, or I will change them back again. Pink Princess (talk) 15:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey I just saw this. Sinan comes from the root snn, referring to (among other things) teeth and also grinding (like a grindstone?). It is likely the grinding (as in sharpening) connotation derives from teeth (as in teeth grinding and sharpening a spearhead). Sinaan (سنان), at least in Wehr means spearhead. In the Dictionary of Muslim Names, the footnote strongly implies spearhead (spear's point - the point of a spear - its head). Thus the Spear of Faith may have been a point of interpolation. As support for this, (http://books.google.com/books?id=afItQsYsr2QC&pg=PA9&dq=sinan+spearhead&hl=en&ei=akCOTOLaK8qI4Qaljti5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sinan%20spearhead&f=false), Rogers (2006), translates Sinanuddin [sinaan al-din] as 'spearhead of the Faith.' Kupershoek also says it means spearhead (http://books.google.com/books?id=2zVK3zZjfVEC&pg=PA382&dq=sinan+spearhead&hl=en&ei=4ECOTP2EDMj64AbqhcmwCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false).

I think it is possible the translation in the Dictionary of Muslims Names (as spear) was a point of license, and the source that you found may be sort of fringe, perhaps incorrect. I'll check with some Arabic speakers tonight. Tentatively, however, I think it might be prudent to change the connotation and footnote it with the source on the name meaning spear. Michael Sheflin (talk) 15:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My very well educated Sudanese friend has suggested Pink Princess is correct, and I also concur: رمح (rm7) is the root relating to stabbing and spear; سنن/سنّ is a root relating to teeth, sharpening or grinding, and the spearhead. So I am going to change this and I think a footnote would be appropriate if there is severe controversy. Michael Sheflin (talk) 13:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yea... not to be a dick too, but yea Wehr actually does not list سنان as spear.... it does list it as spearhead "سنان sinān pl. اسنة asinna spearhead" (Wehr 1994: 505). So I also changed that reference. Michael Sheflin (talk) 13:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know if these Chinese and Korean uses are related? Michael Sheflin (talk) 13:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I realize this is an unnecessary number of posts, but I'm pretty sure refs 4 and 5 are identical and just different publishers and publications of the same book... Salahuddin Ahmed and S. A. Rahman; or perhaps his son. But shouldn't they be consolidated or something. same title, likely similarity of author's name... seems like it's the same book and redundant. Michael Sheflin (talk) 14:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]