Talk:Siege of Fort Stanwix

Copyright problem

This article appears to be copied and pasted from myrevolutionarywar.com. • Gene93k (talk) 15:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

People should be more careful about throwing around copyright violations. MyRevolutionaryWar.com is a known Wikipedia mirror. Magic♪piano 22:04, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Siege of Fort Stanwix/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I will do the GA Review on this article. H1nkles (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Review Philosophy

When I do an article review I like to provide a Heading-by-Heading breakdown of suggestions for how to make the article better. It is done in good faith as a means to improve the article. It does not necessarily mean that the article is not GA quality, or that the issues listed are keeping it from GA approval. I also undertake minor grammatical and prose edits. After I finish this part of the review I will look at the over arching quality of the article in light of the GA criteria and make my determination as to the overall quality of the article.

GA Checklist

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Article meets all GA Criteria and will pass.

Lead & Background

These two sections are both fine, well-written and cover their subjects.

Forces assemble

Could any more be said about the supply force from the Massachusets Regiments? This seems like a missing piece of information. Who ordered the expedition? what did they bring? Nothing too detailed but a little more here would be good. H1nkles (talk) 22:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain the supply train was sent by Schuyler, but I'll have to check. I'm not sure the sources I've seen identify with any detail the supplies. (I do know the garrison was short of ammo during the siege, so there probably wasn't enough of that...)

The siege begins and Oriskany

Both sections are fine, I did some minor copy editing but otherwise I see no problem with the body of the text. H1nkles (talk) 02:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Siege relief, Aftermath, and Legacy

These sections are fine, cogent, to the point and well-written. I can't think of much I would add that would improve them. I did a minor punctuation edit but otherwise they are fine.

Ebenezer Learned's command is incorrectly identified in the article as the "4th Massachusetts Regiment." Learned was appointed a brigadier general in the Continental Army on April 2, 1777 (Heitman, "Historical Register," p. 10). His command was the 4th Massachusetts BRIGADE, consisting of the 2d Massachusetts Regiment (Colonel John Bailey), 8th Massachusetts Regiment (Colonel Michael Jackson), and 9th Massachusetts Regiment (Colonel James Wesson) (idem., p. 11). For this reason, Wesson's 9th Massachusetts Regiment is credited with "Mohawk Valley" in the lineage section of Wright's "The Continental Army." (Wright consistently gives conflicting information for different regiments in the same brigade. This is one example of many. Here he credits the 9th regiment but omits the 2d and 8th).

The Fourth Massachusetts Regiment was never commanded by Ebenezer Learned. Its commanders were Colonel William Shepard, January 1, 1777 to January 1, 1783; and Colonel Henry Jackson from January 1 to November 3, 1783 (Heitman, p. 37).

The Fourth Massachusetts Brigade was commanded by Learned, as he was fourth in seniority of the brigadier generals appointed from Massachusetts who served during this period of the war. The Massachusetts brigadiers, in the order named, were:

Brigadier General John Nixon: August 9, 1776.

Brigadier General John Glover: February 21, 1777.

Brigadier General John Paterson: February 21, 1777.

Brigadier General Ebenezer Learned: April 2, 1777.

Notes

Your notes formatting is a little odd, wikilinking the notes to the references doesn't seem to add much. When one clicks on the link the page just jumps to the bottom. It's nothing that violates the MOS or anything I'm just not sure what wikilinking each author's name in the notes truly accomplishes. Overall your references appear credible and well formatted, I don't have access to the books that are off-line so they are taken in good faith.

I've not received any significant comment on the wikilinked split format before (more than a dozen GAs and 2+ FAs).

Understandable, I've seen many different ways to format the notes/references, as long as it conveys the information then I'm fine with it. H1nkles (talk) 04:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Images

Your images are fine, the only problem I see is the odd placement of some of the images. Per WP:ACCESS the images shouldn't spill over from one section to the next. The exception of course is in small section, which this article has. Still I count three images that straddle two sections, could these be placed better so as to avoid this?

I'm not the best with image placement. I should probably move the gansevoort image...

Overall comments

The article is very close, really just a little bit more about the supply convoy in the "Forces assemble" section (to satisfy comprehensive requirement) and some better placement of the photos and the article will pass. I'll hold it for a week. Good job overall on the article. H1nkles (talk) 05:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your constructive comments. I'll get on it over the next few days. Magic♪piano 15:10, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me know if the changes I've made don't adequately address your issues. Magic♪piano 20:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Your edits are fine, the images look better, and seem more organized. I will pass the article with pleasure. H1nkles (talk) 22:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Revision to Introduction

Introduction has been revised. Some points needed to be corrected (e.g., the role of Joseph Brant) and other points needed clarification (e.g., the importance of Fort Stanwix). Added Herkimer's rank.

Joseph Brant was present at the Siege of Fort Stanwix but did not lead Britain's indigenous allies. The Seneca warriors Sayenqueraghta and Cornplanter were elected war chiefs when the Iroquois agreed to abandon their neutrality at a council a few weeks before the siege. According to Barbara Graymont, author of The Iroquois in the American Revolution, Brant "had no part in recruiting any warriors save his own large band."

The raid led by Marinus Willett does not appear to have inflicted significant casualties so "killing some Seneca" has been deleted. Sources that mention casualties generally refer to only "two sick Indians" being killed. Griffin's Sword (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Revision to Forces assemble

This section had a few errors and omissions. The Siege of Fort Stanwix predates the formation of Butler’s Rangers. John Butler was at the siege but led rangers from the British Indian Department. The attack on the Lower Landing was commanded by Lt Henry Bird of the 8th Regiment. Brant was present but was not in charge. Replaced numbers for St. Leger’s forces from Pancake (1977) with the more accurate and detailed numbers provided by Watt and Morrison (2003). Described the expedition's route from Oswego to Fort Stanwix. Griffin's Sword (talk) 17:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Revision to Siege begins

While most sources report that St. Leger paraded his forces on the 3rd it would not have been a very impressive or intimidating display since most of the Kings Royal Regiment of New York were engaged in clearing Wood Creek and the Oneida Carry, and most of St. Leger's indigenous allies had not yet arrived. Created a new section called "Siege continues" and moved the map there as it shows the position of St. Leger's forces later in the siege. Will add additional information later. Griffin's Sword (talk) 22:27, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Oriskany and Siege continues

As originally written the section on the Battle of Oriskany made it seem as if Herkimer's forces and St. Leger's forces suffered an equal number of casualties. According to Watt (2002), 380 Tryon County militia were killed and 30 taken prisoner, while St. Leger's indigenous allies had 65 killed or wounded. Some historical writers also insist that Oriskany was an American victory despite the horrendous casualties and the failure to relieve the siege. Additional information about the siege following Oriskany has been added. Griffin's Sword (talk) 17:04, 2 May 2023 (UTC)