Talk:Sharada Peeth/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Please note the Valley of Kashmir and its vicinity has nothing to do with Ghandhara. While Ghandhara and Kashmir have interacted in the past both are distinct regions and Kashmir has never been referred to as a region of Ghandhra.


How ironic that the name Sharada in Kashur is written in devnagri script in the article, a script that has nothing to do with Kashmir but the Sharada script that is the indigenous Kashmiri script of the language as well as the script of the sanaskrit texts in the North West including kashmir until the last century and which originated at Sharada Peeth itself is nowhere to be seen. Even now when Pandit community has stopped using the persian script for their language, they chose devnagri over their own sharada script, defying all logic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.2.106 (talk) 23:03, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

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Tone

Kashmir was once centre of learning of Hindu Vedic works until the region was almost completely Islamized by marauding Islamic hordes and rulers, as well as wandering mystics, known as Sufis, who proselytized in the region after arriving from Iran and Central Asia between the 12th and 17th centuries.

You cannot use this kind of tone on Wikipedia. I will edit/remove above sentence. If you want to add info about why the area being largely Muslim nowadays, find a different way of saying it. 5.146.87.29 (talk) 11:17, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Rearranging/harmonizing article

If you'll notice, the entire page is completely jumbled, with scattered bits of information spread throughout the entire article, with a variety of sections that can be consolidated into something neater. It also sounds like at least 15-20 different contributors with varying degrees of English fluency have contributed to the article, which now requires harmonization of prose to make it read like a real encyclopedic article.

Issues regarding history are scattered throughout, while sentences about significance are also scatterred about. There's also a large amount of unsourced/uncited info that in fact may be OR.

Reading through this article, it seems that this is in fact an extremely important site within Hinduism. The current layout of the project is, in my opinion, unacceptable for a mandir of such importance. As such, I'm going to try to streamline this page into something more orderly. Please contact me if you have any questions. I'm not going to delete info unless it's redundant, but that means a lot of the unsourced info will remain. If someone could find sources to add as inline citations, that would be appreciated. Willard84 (talk) 04:20, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Expanding

Dear all, general note that I am editing the article significantly, and in the process will be removing information that is uncited/I cannot find citations for. This page appears to have been subject to edit wars, so if you disagree with any of what I have edited, I request that you inform me on this talk page or my own before making significant changes. I am using a variety of sources, both from within Kashmir (both from authors living in Azad Kashmir and Jammu & Kashmir) and outside Kashmir. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 07:07, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

River names?

There appears to be some confusion regarding the names of the rivers. There is a river now called Madhumati in Kashmir, but it does not appear to be the same Madhumati. Perhaps I will resolve that in future. Malaiya (talk) 23:06, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Native language for Sharada Peeth

There is no available detailed guidance on Wikipedia on what constitutes a native language, other than (1) a suggestion on the Hindu temple infobox template page that it be the local language and (2) where the language is "natively" spoken: where it is the language spoken from birth, in which the speaker has a large vocabulary and intuitive understanding of grammar.

The first is inconclusive and the second is not particularly useful here. I therefore suggest that the native name of Sharada Peeth be reflected in two languages: Urdu and Kashmiri. The name is pronounced the same way in Kashmiri as in Urdu, which uses both the Nastaliq and Devanagari scripts. Therefore, the name should be written in both Nastaliq and Devanagari. This will be done using a plain list as suggested in the infobox template.

Reasons for keeping it in two scripts:

  1. Accepted that at least one of the native languages should be Urdu because it is in Azad Kashmir, where the official language is Urdu.
  2. The official languages of Azad Kashmir include Urdu, Mirpuri, Hindko, Pothwari, Gujari and Pashto, and a minority speak Kashmiri. This minority is concentrated in Neelam District, where Sharada Peeth is located. It can reasonably be considered a native local language.
  3. The current residents of the area were not the people who built or used the temple before it fell into disuse in the 17th century, or even after. Pre-1947, a large number of Hindu Kashmiris lived in the Sharada village, and they spoke, read and wrote in Kashmiri (using the Devanagari script). It is more accurate to use their native language as the native language for this monument.
  4. I would support the inclusion of the Sharada script as well, though like Latin, it is now used only ceremonially. If another editor can read and write the script, it would be a welcome addition.

It is therefore most appropriate for both names to be reflected on the page.

The only official language of AK are Urdu and English: not Kashmiri. And Devanagari script is never used in Pakistani areas. Only include official languages. 223.136.91.29 (talk) 10:03, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
If you wish to create an etymology section, you can include Devanagari script there. But don’t put it in the intro paragraph which is meant for official languages only.223.136.91.29 (talk) 10:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Also, the main language in Neelam Valley is not Kashmiri, but is instead Pahari. This page is part of Wiki Azad Kashmir, which is part of WP Pakistan. There is guidance that names only be used in Nastaliq or other regional scripts (Devanagari is not such a regional script since it is not used in Pakistan)> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Pakistan-related_articles223.136.91.29 (talk) 15:35, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
The Sharada script is closely related to Devanagari. All Kashmiri Pandits now use Devanagari to write Kashmiri. The Gurmukhi script is a direct descendant of the Sharada script. Malaiya (talk) 01:41, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi My Lord, the above discussion relates to the names we have used in the infobox and lead section of the article. There was some disagreement over the use of Kashmiri because it is not an official language of Pakistan. I think the best accommodation was the earlier one, because it recognises both the official language, and the regional language, which is expressed in Nastaliq, Sharda and Devanagari. Based on this - do you still think it is better to remove the Nastaliq script from the "Kashmiri" section?Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 21:38, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Native name

@223.136.91.29: There has been some back-and-forth on whether to use the Nastaliq, Sharda or Devanagari scripts for Sharada Peeth's native name (which is the same in Urdu, Hindi and Kashmiri). Is it not appropriate to use more than one? It may be located in Azad Kashmir now, but in its prime it was a holy site for Kashmiri Pandits, who use the Sharda and Devanagari scripts. A simple compromise seems to be to use both scripts. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 07:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

There’s been no back and forth. You’ve included scripts in the intro paragraph that are not recognized in Pakistan in any official manner. Etymology section would be appropriate for such script, not the first sentence.223.136.91.29 (talk) 10:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
There are also political connotations to the use of Devanagari as it is so closely associated with India. You first included Hindi before Kashmiri Devanagari, which is inappropriate for a disputed territory.223.136.91.29 (talk) 10:16, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Wikiproject Azad Kashmir is part of WP Pakistan. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Pakistan-related_articles Only Nastaliq and regional scripts are to be used. Devanagari is not a regionalscriot if Pakistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.136.91.29 (talk) 15:43, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

@223.136.91.29: There are two instances of text that are in question here: (1) the name as reflected in the infobox below the words “Sharada Peeth”, (2) the name in the first line immediately after the words in bold “Sharada Peeth”. Both instances refer to Sharada Peeth’s native name, as expressed in its native language, not its official name in its official language. The labels in the infobox are “native_name” and “native_lang”. I could not find any requirement on Wikipedia that a native name be in an official language, and I do not see the connection myself.
The natural follow-up question is: what does “native” mean? I found two possibilities on Wikipedia (which I mentioned earlier), both inconclusive. I referred thereafter to the Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English: native: “of the indigenous inhabitants of a place.”
The indigenous inhabitants of Sharda (formerly Shardi) town are Kashmiri-speaking and from the ancient kingdom of Kashmir. There is evidence for this:
  • Historical: Sharada Peeth was built by Kashmiri-speaking Kashmiris. (Evidence available upon request.)
  • Circumstantial: There is a higher concentration of Kashmiri-speaking Azad Kashmiris in Neelam Valley than in other parts of Azad Kashmir. (This does not mean that Kashmiri is the official language of Neelam Valley.)
  • The Sharada script itself acquired its name because of its extensive use in Sharada Peeth. (Evidence available upon request.)
It is therefore a reasonable conclusion that the indigenous language of the area is Kashmiri. Kashmiri is expressed in three scripts: Sharda, Devanagari and Nastaliq, which are the three scripts I had included.
You are right that I included Hindi in the beginning, but I accept your point that as Sharada Peeth is located in Pakistan, Hindi is not the appropriate language to use.
To your point on etymology: I may expand that section in due course, but given the above, it is an entirely distinct issue from whether (1) the name to be expressed is in the native or official language, and if it is the native language (2) what is Sharada Peeth’s native language?
Political sensitivity:
I understand your concern about the political sensitivity of reflecting the name in a script associated with India, but this historical monument is already a victim of significant erasure. Its historical position in the subcontinent is comparable to Nalanda, but it has received very little attention. I would argue that accuracy here should trump political correctness.
Even if you disagree with me on that point, it is, like you say, disputed territory and administratively controlled by Pakistan. The least controversial language to place it in is Kashmiri: it is the indigenous language of the people who built the monument, and the scripts can be read by both Indians and Pakistanis.
To your point on WikiProject Pakistan, I would like to point out that Wikiprojects do not own articles (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Guide#WikiProjects_do_not_own_articles) and therefore cannot set requirements on the styles to be used. You have pointed out yourself that Sharda Peeth is located in disputed territory, and therefore is of significance to both India and Pakistan.
I look forward to your reply. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 15:57, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Gentle note that I hope to receive your reply soon. Will leave your edits for 2 days before reverting. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 16:57, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
The basis for including Kashmiri as a local language is flawed. Kashmiri is not a native language in this part of Kashmir. Check out this map: https://www.ethnologue.com/16/show_map/PK/map10/
In it you see Kashmiri in Neelam valley is spoken in a tiny area right across from Uri, not this far up the Neelam Valley. Pahari is the language spoken in this region. Pahari doesn’t use Devanagari script. 2600:1010:B01B:C53B:248B:5C3E:AD19:89A3 (talk) 06:18, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
@2600:1010:B01B:C53B:248B:5C3E:AD19:89A3 (talk), thank you for your thoughts. For now, I'm going to leave aside the issue of which language to use without prejudice because it is relatively trivial and is yet subject to such frequent edits by so many people that it distracts from the much greater need for quality editing in the rest of the article. This means that I am, for the moment, not going to pursue reverting the edits.
(1) I am hoping that a senior editor can help with guiding the development of a consensus on how this is to be addressed. If I get time, I may request for a senior editor's involvement. I think the guide on Nastaliq or languages in Pakistan-related articles is inadequate here because: (1) this is a unique case, as I reasoned above, (2) it deals with a monument built by Kashmiri-speaking Kashmiris, (3) it was essential in popularising the use of the Sharda script for the Kashmiri language, which has historical significance. It needs strong justification in my opinion that an ancient centre of learning that in its prime used and popularised the use of the Sharda script for the Kashmiri language is being labelled as not having Kashmiri as a native language. The same is true for not using a famous script named after this monument in this monument's article. But this is just my opinion, so FYI only.
(2) Now, a quick response to your points. Please read my original argument carefully because your response side-steps my points. The definition of "native", adopted from the Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English is "of the indigenous inhabitants of a place". The indigenous inhabitants, the original settlers, of Shardi and those who populated Sharada Peeth are Kashmiri language-speaking Kashmiris ("Kashmiri" = of the historical princely state of Jammu & Kashmir). The map you have provided is a 2009 source of languages spoken there today. Now, the population of Kashmiri-speaking Kashmiris dropped sharply following the Partition of India in 1947, but this does not change the fact that Kashmiri-speaking Kashmiris are indigenous to this region. The Kashmiri language is "of them", and per the Oxford Dictionary's definition, therefore, a "native language", regardless of whether it is the most common language spoken there today.
As always, if you need evidence or sources for any of the above, please ask. .
Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 07:04, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Wanted to add that I came across a source today about the Pahari language. It uses a script (Shah Mukhi, I think) that is descended from the Sharada script. Another reason, I think, to keep the Sharada script on the article. Link here [1] at page 36, quote: "So far as the writing in Mirpuri Pahari language is concerned, there is no record of any ancient or subsequent research work. But we find some rock and stone carvings which show that people here have been using a script close to Sharda. One sample was found from a water tank (Baoli)". Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 05:08, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
I agree with User:Kohlrabi Pickle's initial comment to use both the Urdu and the Kashmiri scripts (in Sharada and Devanagari). I have added a parenthetical to the lede to show the difference between the two. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 19:31, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2019

Content of this Page is not correct. There is no such thing as Azad Kashmir. What you refer to this territory is Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. 204.191.159.10 (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Wikipedia tries to maintain a neutral point of view, so tries to not pick a side in border disputes. Your proposal seems to introduce a pro-Indian bias. Danski454 (talk) 22:08, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

New section on Islamisation

Hi Sohcb8 (talk), I noticed your recent edit to include a section about Kashmir's Islamisation in the medieval period. Is this necessary? It's difficult to see its relevance to Sharada Peeth, and in any case, it is well documented in History of Kashmir. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:30, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Sharada Peeth/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 14:56, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


Opening statement

In reviews I conduct, I may make small copyedits. These will only be limited to spelling and punctuation (removal of double spaces and such). I will only make substantive edits that change the flow and structure of the prose if I previously suggested and it is necessary. For replying to Reviewer comment, please use  Done,  Fixed, plus Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or minus Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. I will be crossing out my comments as they are redressed, and only mine. A detailed, section-by-section review will follow. —♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:56, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

A note: This is a temple, and should have been filed under the "Art and architecture" category of GANs. If/when this article passes, I will list under "Art and architecture". –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:56, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

History and etymology

  • Ganges River around 1500 BC The rest of the article uses CE, so this should be BCE.
     Done
  • Citations [11], [14], [19], [26] are repeated redundantly.
     Done Done for [11], [14] and [26]. Not sure where the redundancy is for [19], though if you point it (/them) out, I'll remove it (/them).
  • This has fed the popular belief that Sharada was developed in Kashmir. I recommend replacing "Sharada" here with "the script".
     Done
  • Many of these associations with it took place during Buddhist Kashmir (3rd century BC – 8th century AD). Revise this if referring to a specific period, as it seems to be. Consider "the Buddhist period of Kashmiri history", or something to that effect.  Done
  • where he studied under a Kashmiri scholar of Sarvastivada, a prominent monastic school of Buddhism. Shorten this to "where he studied under a Kashmiri scholar of the Sarvastivada school".
     Done
  • the Tibetan language Insert a wikilink here.
     Done
  • She said that he Change "he" to "Shankara", as I assume it refers to him.
     Done
  • In the 11th century, the Vaishnava saint Swami Ramanuja traveled from Srirangam to refer to the Brahma Sutras, before commencing work on writing his commentary on the Brahma sutras, the Sri Bhasya. Did Swami Ramanuja travel to Sharada Peeth for this?
     Done Yes, and I have replaced the citation with one that is more explicit about this.
  • In the 15th century, the historian Jonaraja described a visit by the Kashmiri sultan Zain-ul-Abidin in 1422 CE. Delete "In the fifteenth century"; it is redundant and vague where "1422" is specific.
    minus Removed
  • In Rajatarangini, Kalhana describes an event during Lalitaditya's reign (713-755), [...] This paragraph is out of place and should be moved up.
     Done
  • I recommend moving all literary and cultural references to a new section, as their significance to Sharada Peeth's history is just to say that something was at this site. You can then make brief mention of these works in the history section as you need for that function.
     Done This was a great suggestion, thank you. I must apologise for adding to your work, because this involved some rather extensive restructuring, though I didn't add any new content. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 11:36, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
  • 26 still repeated here: The sultan visited the temple seeking a vision of the goddess, but grew angry with her because she did not appear to him in person.[26] In frustration, he slept in the court of the temple, where she appeared to him in a dream.[26]
minus Removed

(@Vami IV: Just to say that I've done the last part of the page, as requested. Thanks very much for the review. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 11:38, 4 April 2020 (UTC))

I'm willing to wait and do more to bring this review to a successful conclusion. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 20:51, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate that. I will follow up on the rest of your notes. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:27, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Literary and cultural references

  • In the 14th century text Madhaviya Shankara Vijayam, [...] There is no citation at the end of this paragraph. It appears to have drifted down the page to [28] Engaging with them,. Citation [28] is also repeated needlessly throughout the two highlighted paragraphs.
 Done
  • Citation [26] is still repeated needlessly here: Kalhana believed that the Royal Army took refuge in Sharada Peeth,[26] because it had the open space required for a temporary military village, and because the area surrounding the Sirahsila Castle was not large enough to host a camp for a siege without the siege force being vulnerable to archers.[26]
minus Removed
  • And 29 here: In the Carnatic music song kalavathi kamalasana yuvathi, the 19th century composer Muthuswami Dikshitar refers to Sharada Peeth as Saraswati's abode.[29] Set in the raga yagapriya, the song praises Saraswati:[29]
minus Removed
  • Citation 15 here: The 11th century poet Bilhana describes both the spiritual and academic elements of Sharada Peeth, referring to it as the source of Kashmir's reputation as a centre of learning.[15] He also described the goddess Sharada as resembling a swan, carrying the gold washed from the Madhumati river as her diadem.[15]
minus Removed

As a temple

  • Citation 26 is the only citation in the first paragraph of "Hindu legends". It should not be repeated even once. Add more citations or delete the repeats.
minus Removed
  • Kashmiri Pandits believe that Sharada in Kashmir is a tripartite embodiment of the goddess Shakti: Sharada (goddess of learning), Saraswati (goddess of knowledge), and Vagdevi (goddess of speech, which articulates power). How is this relevant to the temple? Please expand on this to explain the relevance of Shakti to Sharada Peeth.
 Done This was just to explain how Kashmiris see the goddess worshipped at the temple, because different parts of India see the goddess Saraswati (aka Sharada) differently. Some see her simply as the goddess of knowledge, others see her as an overall manifestation of the Goddess Mother. I have changed it to "Kashmiri Pandits believe that the goddess Sharada worshipped in Sharada Peeth is a tripartite embodiment of the goddess Shakti: Sharada (goddess of learning), Saraswati (goddess of knowledge), and Vagdevi (goddess of speech, which articulates power)." Is this better? Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 07:00, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
It's a good start. Now, it'd be good to see the temple's importance to the Pandits and its history with them. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:16, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Vami_IV I've expanded it. Would you have a look and let me know what you think? Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 12:56, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
Will do. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:33, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Move both images in "As a temple" to the right.
 Done Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Why is "Legendary origins" cut in half now?
 Fixed Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
  • There are now two "As a temples". So, now, I suggest "As a Temple" be renamed "religious significance", and "Legendary origins" moved into "History and etymology".
 Done Good call, thank you. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Please condense the first paragraph of "Hindu legends", and link to Shadilya and the Vedas.
 Done Done, as far as I thought possible... Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Eventually, goddess revealed herself the goddess
 Fixed Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Expand the link to the Kashmir (princely state) to all of princely state of Kashmir.
 Done Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
  • and that giants Is there a link that can be made here?
 Not done Not that I know of... Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Found one. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:31, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm hesitant to use that one because I don't know if the legend is a Hindu one. One of the legendary stories mentions azan, so it might be Muslim, but that's not specified either. I'm concerned that choosing one way or another falls under WP:NOR. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 11:31, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Ah. Well, in that case, I'll just mark off this bullet-point and close down this section at long last. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 12:48, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Great! Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 14:12, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • In her fury, Try "Furious,"
 Done Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Post-Indian independence

  • For tourists that do visit, the ruins of the shrine are often overshadowed by the natural beauty of the surrounding valley. Phrase this differently.
 Done Is this better? "Tourists to the Neelum Valley often overlook the ruins of the shrine, instead spending time in the scenic valley surrounding it"? Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 13:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • manner that Katasraj Temple the Katasraj Temples
 Fixed Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 13:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • to the Pakistan government Pakistani
 Fixed Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 13:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • to Sharada Peeth site another missing "the"
 Fixed Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 13:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Paragraphs 2 and 4 are virtually the same. Combine them.
 Done 13:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Paragraph 3 should precede Paragraph 2/4.
 Done 13:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Take 2

  • Pakistani Hindus rarely visit the temple, preferring to visit sites farther south in Sindh, Balochistan, and Punjab provinces. As such, restoration of the temple is not considered a priority in the manner that the Katasraj Temples were regarded by the Pakistani government. Missing citation. This sentence would be a nice addition to the first paragraph.
 Not done Couldn't find a citation. I've removed the line. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:18, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Re-reading, Paragraphs 2 and 3 can and should be combined for brevity. They cover much of the same ground.
 Done Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:18, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Location

  • This section is prime lead material. I'd move it up there.
 Done I've copied a slightly shortened version to the lead. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 14:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
You've just copied and pasted but the last bit of this section into the lead, without the citations. Just move the section up there without that un-copied bit. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 12:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
  • 150 kilometres [...] 10 kilometres [...] 1,981 metres above sea level Add Template:Convert
 Done Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 14:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Architecture

  • I... don't consider this section worthy reviewing just yet. It needs tightening up, expansion, and wikilinks. From my own experience in writing about architecture, I suggest a sort of "tour" and a short architectural of the site.
 Done This is a fair comment, and I will work on this section. I am rather a novice at writing about architecture so I will defer to your better judgment. Do you happen to have any suggestions of Wikipedia pages which I can take inspiration from? I've searched but I couldn't find one with an "architecture" section. Also, did you mean "short architectural history"? At present, I have only two sources: (1) Aurel Stein from the 19th century, and (2) Salman Rashid from 2018. They speculate about the history of the temple, and I could include that, if you think it would be a good idea? Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 14:17, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
For examples, check out what's listed under Wikipedia:Good articles/Art and architecture#Architecture's "Religious" section. A "short architectural history" would be changes made over the years and way. Those sources should do as long as they're credible. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 15:49, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 Done Please see. I have exams coming up, so I will have to take a wikibreak soon. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:20, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Vami_IV I'm able to come back to Wikipedia sporadically. Would you let me know what you think of the new section/what more you think I should work on? Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 08:41, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
  • There are missing citations.
 Fixed Sorry, I didn't realise that citations had to be at the end of each paragraph; I was under the impression that it was fine if they are at the end of the text they support. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 12:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Vami_IV Please let me know if there is anything else I can help with. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:28, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
  • account by Aurel Stein Who? Introduce him, IE "the Extemebaelian adventurer Johann Gotitgood".
 Done I had thought that a link to Stein's profile would be enough. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
  • possibly because architects disliked plain outside walls, or else possibly so that even if the spire collapsed, a visitor would be able to tell what the temple originally looked like. Sounds WP:OR to me. And did the architects just foresee the future ruinous condition of the temple?
 Not done This comes from footnote 14. Not an outlandish suggestion, I think, given that the area is prone to earthquakes, and given the mythological significance of the original architecture. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done I have, however, edited the statement to make clear that it is a suggestion. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
  • The design is simple Design of what?
 Fixed Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
  • rising higher than either the walls or pillars. Arches are usually assumed to do this.
minus Removed Understood. This was specifically detailed in footnote 29 and I assumed it was significant. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Vami_IV Done, thank you. I've also replaced the photo because I felt that the previous one didn't quite illustrate this section well. The new one situates the temple in the compound. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

GA progress

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No evidence that the Sharada Peeth temple had any connection with Buddhism

There exists no evidence (archaeological or literary) whatsoever that this specific temple had any connection with Buddhism. Buddhism was a part of religious life in Kashmir in period when the temple was flourishing, as you can see in article Buddhism in Kashmir (which incidentally I had created). There is no evidence that any of the Buddhist visitors mentioned visited the temple. The possible mention in Nilamata Purana is quite ambiguous, it is clear that the temple had not become prominent in the period of Nilamata Purana.

The confusion arises because Kashmir is sometimes identified as "Sharada Desh" after the temple, which is located just outside the Kashmir valley. The Buddhist visitors visited Kashmir, i.e. the Kashmir valley, but nothing is known about them visiting the Sharada Temple. Thus Kashmir ≠ Sharada Peeth.


Malaiya (talk) 00:45, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Malaiya: I'm not well acquainted with the primary texts but I have the following source that suggests a connection between Buddhism and Sharada Peeth. The journal article "Peace & Economy beyond Faith: A Case Study of Sharda Temple" published in Vol 18 Issue 2 of Pakistan Vision journal states: "On top of the tourists from the regional countries, Sharda (region as a holy place) will also attract the Buddhists from countries of Far East as it has been a Buddhist centre of wisdom during the Kushans rule in Kashmir (Rukhsana Said Mohammed, personal communication, February 20, 2016)." It also states: "Many religions attach spiritual significance to the particular places as Sharda Temple is one of them, which is not only a relic of old civilization but also a sacred place for Hindus and Buddhists". Perhaps you can share your perspective on this. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Xuanzang?

The text states: "The Chinese Buddhist monk, Xuanzang, visited this learning centre in 632 CE.[20] He stayed there for two years and appreciated the mental gifts of priests and students of this learning centre.[20]"

I am not sure where [20] is getting the information. I cannot seem to find it in Xuanzang's Si-yu-ki, Buddhist records of the Western world (see https://archive.org/details/siyukibuddhistre01hsuoft/page/174 pages 143-164. Xuanzang was in Kashmir but no mention of Sharada temple.

I have not come across any connection of the Sharada temple with Buddhism, although Buddhism was fairly popular in Kashmir as we seen in Rajatarangini.

Malaiya (talk) 00:12, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Malaiya: Same source as mentioned above states: "While the Chinese Buddhist monk, Xuanzang or Hue-en-tsang who visited Kashmir in 632 A.D, stayed at Sharda for nearly two years, has valued Pandits who were remarkably brilliant, gifted with insightful wisdom and were genius." It cites "Chitkara, 2002", though I was not able to access this source and scrutinise it myself. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2018 (UTC
Malaiya: Attached link is to the PDF of the journal article, for your reference. It may be behind a paywall. [2] Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 03:57, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Malaiya: My mistake - I see that the source I have quoted you cites the same source you are questioning: Chitkara. I agree that the source of Chitkara's information is unclear. I am unable to find where the quote is exactly and so cannot locate the reference but perhaps you will have more success. The source is "Kashmir Shaivism Under Siege" and you can find it here: [3]. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 05:21, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Vairotsana, Kumarajiva and Thonmi Sambhota?

The article states "...Vairotsana,[6] Kumarajiva,[6] and Thonmi Sambhota.[6].." The reference [6] does not say they came to the Sharada temple, only they visited Kashmir. I am not aware of any any source that suggests that they ever visited the Sharada temple.Malaiya (talk) 23:54, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Malaiya: I think I may have incorrectly referenced those points as I also cannot locate the source saying that they visited the Sharada temple. With regard to Adi Shankara, it may be possible that he visited the Sharada temple in Sringeri and not Kashmir. The only sources I can find to the contrary are blog posts. As for the others, what do you think of this source? [4] It is also secondary and inconclusive, but comes from a quote by the President of the Brahmin Association of India. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 05:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. The legends are quite clear that he visited the Sharada temple in Kashmir. Please see: https://www.sringeri.net/history/sri-adi-shankaracharya/biography/abridged-madhaviya-shankara-digvijayam/part-5. it is based on The Madhaviya Shankara Vijayam, a text of 14th century. Please see Shankara Vijayam. Thus the visit of Adi Sankara to the temple has a basis and we can accept Adi Sankara's visit.Malaiya (talk) 02:18, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
@Malaiya, very helpful, many thanks. If I get time, I will try to expand the detail on this in the article.
Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 07:08, 31 December 2018 (UTC)


Hi Malaiya, hope you're well. I'm now working on addressing your point. I'm planning to leave in the references to these three scholars, but to use more circumspect language. As far as I can tell, there are plenty of sources for all three scholars visiting Kashmir for learning. We know the following:

  • Sharada Peeth was a well-known centre of learning,
  • Buddhism was prominent in Kashmir.
  • Thonmi Sambhota, in particular, was sent to Kashmir to develop a script for the Tibetan language, which we know was based on the Sharada script (which was popularised by Sharada Peeth), and
  • we also know that Sharada Peeth was the only library that stored full texts of ancient Sanskrit grammar, and that Thonmi Sambhota studied grammar.

Given all these, the probability that Thonmi Sambhota in particular studied in Sharada Peeth seems exceptionally high to me. Of course, per WP:NOR, I don't plan on making that claim myself. What I propose to do is to leave in a line that this has been suggested (and it has) and then add the historical context that I've supplied above. The reader is then free to decide how strong or weak this suggestion is. I propose this partially because it seems a great pity to have to wait for a scholar or a study to draw this obvious conclusion before I can put any mention of it in. Do let me know if you object. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 12:29, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2020

This is in India and not Pakistan. 2409:4060:108:30ED:6091:8DA9:4E41:7F7B (talk) 02:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Sharada Peeth is located in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Wikipedia adopts a neutral point of view and therefore does not express a view on territorial disputes. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 03:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

Sir it is not "Azad Kashmir". So please change it to Pakistan occupied kashmir from Azad Kashmir. Kashmir is legally an Indian territory as per the instrument of accession. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.242.12 (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Sharada Peeth is located in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Wikipedia adopts a neutral point of view and accordingly, does not take a position on territorial disputes. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 23:56, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2020

Please change the word "Azad Kashmir" to "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir(POK)" in the first sentence.

The change should finally be -

Sharada Peeth (Urdu: شاردا پیٹھ; Kashmiri: शारदा पीठ (Devanagari), 𑆯𑆳𑆫𑆢𑆳 𑆥𑆵𑆜 (Sharada)) is a ruined Hindu temple and ancient centre of learning located in present-day "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir(POK)".


There is no official region known as Azad Kashmir, there is only Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK). Please refer to below sources -

1. https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/pak-approves-plan-to-open-ancient-hindu-temple-corridor-in-pok-119032500855_1.html 2. https://www.cntraveller.in/story/pakistan-to-allow-indian-pilgrims-to-visit-sharda-peeth-temple-in-pok/ 3. https://www.thequint.com/explainers/explainer-sharada-peeth-shrine-pok-kashmiri-pandit-demand BharatvarshaSP (talk) 00:58, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Sharada Peeth is located in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Wikipedia adopts a neutral point of view and accordingly, does not take a position on territorial disputes. - Timbaaa -> ping me 02:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2021

Please change

Sharada Peeth (Urdu: شاردا پیٹھ; Kashmiri: शारदा पीठ (Devanagari), 𑆯𑆳𑆫𑆢𑆳 𑆥𑆵𑆜 (Sharada)) is a ruined Hindu temple and ancient centre of learning located in present-day Azad Kashmir

To Sharada Peeth (Urdu: شاردا پیٹھ; Kashmiri: शारदा पीठ (Devanagari), 𑆯𑆳𑆫𑆢𑆳 𑆥𑆵𑆜 (Sharada)) is one of the temples dedicated to goddess saraswathi and is one of the ancient centres of learning located in present-day Pakistan occupied Kashmir. This is currently in state of ruins and has been abandoned since the partition in 1947. 161.97.245.233 (talk) 06:49, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jack Frost (talk) 07:55, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
The proposed edit also doesn't add anything. The body of the article more comprehensively deals with the temple falling into disuse post-1947. The relationship between Sharada and Saraswati is also explained. Finally, Wikipedia doesn't take a view on territorial disputes, so it's "Azad Kashmir" or "Pakistan-administed Kashmir", not "Pakistan-occupied Kashmir". Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 09:34, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Spelling of raga

Is there any reason that in this quote (from the article): "This temple is referred to in the Carnatic music song "kalAvathi kamalAsana yuvathi" by the famous composer Sri. Mutthuswami Dikshithar. The song set in the rAga yAgapriyA," there is a mixture of capital and small letters? Is it to provide emphasis? Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Apparently to indicate that A is dirgha. see https://www.quora.com/What-is-Rhasva-and-Dirgha

Malaiya (talk) 03:45, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Photograph of Sharada Peeth in 1893 by Aurel Stein

Thank you for restoring that rare photograph that I had located and uploaded. The temple continued to be in active use for a few decades after that. Malaiya (talk) 03:41, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for finding and uploading it! Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 05:11, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Photograph of Sharada Peeth in 1893 by Aurel Stein

Thank you for restoring that rare photograph that I had located and uploaded. The temple continued to be in active use for a few decades after that. Malaiya (talk) 03:41, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for finding and uploading it! Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 05:11, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

GA Status

I do not believe this article to meet GA standards and will re-assess. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:02, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe, the two of you can explain the content of this article and the accompanying citations — do you disagree with any of my recent edits to this article? TrangaBellam (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Professional life has ramped up so I don’t have the time to help right now. Given the tone of the edit summaries and the message on my talk page, I can’t tell if you genuinely have questions or just want me to defend my edits. If the former, you’re welcome to ask them and if I get the time, I’ll endeavour to reply. If the latter, you’re welcome to improve this article just like any other on Wikipedia - it doesn’t belong to me and I’m not attached to the GA designation. Best wishes, Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 22:02, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
The message on your talk-page is an AC/DS alert. The specific language has been set by the higher ups and I didn't tweak it.
If you have suggestions for improvements to edit summary, please share them.
I want you to explain how you drafted an article with multiple violations of text-cite integrity (and cleared it past a GA reviewer). Wikipedia has no deadline - so, take your time. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:22, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
I don’t intend to participate in an inquisition. If you see problems with the article, go ahead and fix them. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I have nothing to defend; I thought the article very good, and think Kohlrabi Pickle a good and able editor, open to and receptive of input, so I passed it. I am but a human. If you can improve the article, please do so. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 18:38, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Your responses beggar belief. Off to delisting. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:40, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Sharada Peeth/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2021

Pakistan Occupied Kashmir 2409:4043:20C:8A38:EF3E:5579:FF49:3CD7 (talk) 06:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 07:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
The UN position on J&K views it as occupation by Pakistan subject to dispute resolution. Azad Kashmir is a perceived vision by Pakistan and fringe elements in the region. I think articles should reflect reality and as such Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is an accurate description for all references to the region across Wiki. Amitized (talk) 06:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2022

please change the name azad jammu and kashmir because it is illegally occupied Kashmir by Pakistan according to government of India 2409:4063:6E14:2AF6:0:0:7348:C107 (talk) 18:21, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:26, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Refer to my argument on this point above. Amitized (talk) 06:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

April 2022

@RegentsPark this article seems particularly vulnerable to the usual India-Pakistan “occupied Kashmir” tug of war, perhaps it should have some sort of edit protection? UnpetitproleX (talk) 10:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Indef semi-protected. --RegentsPark (comment) 15:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
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