Talk:Scarborough, Ontario/Archive 2

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Cliffcrest and Cliffside

I aksed the following question over at Wikiproject Toronto back in December, and never got a response, so I am repeating it here: Is there really any difference at all between Cliffside and Cliffcrest? In other words, should the articles be merged? The neighbourhood boundaries set out in each article are slightly different -- not sure if that is because they are different neighbourhoods, or is simply two different views of the boundaries of the same neighbourhood. Would those of you with more familiarity with Scarborough please weigh in? Skeezix1000 (talk) 17:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

They are different neighborhoods as far as I know. Have a look at here. Gary King (talk) 06:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Good article nomination on hold

(Version reviewed)

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of May 3, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?:
  • Can this sentence be clarified, is it still a township or a municipality?
On April 15, 1953, Scarborough was included within Metropolitan Toronto, a new upper level of municipal government with jurisdiction over regional services such as arterial roads and transit (the Township retained control over services of a local nature).
Done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Can the history sub sections be in chronological order?
  • 60 m needs the conversion template Height added.
  • Scarborough is also notable for the Rouge River Valley, many parts of which are still in a natural, wooded state.
doesn't nee the word many...re-word pls, txs
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The deep valley the creek cuts in its bottom sections remains primarily parkland, with little or no development taking place within the valley.
Awkward reading, re-word pls, txs
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • From McCowan RT station, to Midland RT station, centred on Scarborough Town Centre Mall and RT station is a small city centre, including a public square, government buildings, offices and in recent years new condominiums, not to mention the Town Centre Mall.
This sentence is way too long. The sentence which follows starts with it, and will make more sense if this long sentence is re-worded.
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
What is a RT station BTW? ...I see this defined way later in the article....still should be defined at first instance, as the stations were used a lot for reference points, and I had no idea of what they were till the latter paragraph....
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The song, which appears in the Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs, edited by Edith Fowke, was recorded by American folksinger Wendy Grossman and by the Canadian singer-songwriter Stan Rogers.[22]
This does not seem to pertain directly to Scarborough, perhaps it could be a note as part of the citation.
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • NBA player
What is NBA?
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • medallist is spelled medalist
  • Should 8 other prominent residents be spelled out...eight other prominent residents ?
  • There are 6 stations along the RT route. should be spelled out...There are six stations along the RT route.
  • The inaugural inductees included NBA player Jamaal Magloire, Olympic gold medallist Vicky Sunohara as well as 8 other prominent residents contributing to advances in medicine, arts, and community.
There should be more commas (methinks)....
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The inaugural inductees included NBA player, Jamaal Magloire; Olympic gold medallist, Vicky Sunohara; as well as 8 other prominent residents contributing to advances in medicine, arts, and community.
  • 3 hectares to over 300 hectares.
needs conversion template again area
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • then modern zoo
Unique description, perhaps the ajectives are not needed in this case.
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • and is private.
When referring to the golf courses and clubs, it may flow easier to read to say...The privately owned Toronto Hunt Club... or The private Toronto Hunt Club... As all the other golf clubs are noted to either private or public,....what is the Tam O'Shanter Golf Course?
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The complex was built on the grounds of the Blessed Mother Teresa Catholic Secondary School, but is open to the public.
Why is the word but used was the something about it being built on these grounds which may have prevented it being open to the public?
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Scarborough is home for Tamils which fled their country from Sri Lanka due to war being waged by Tamil Militants for a separate Tamil homeland within the small island currently named Sri Lanka
Long sentence mentions Sri Lanka two times, and should probably use who and not which.
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • On the other hand, efforts are being made throughout the world to make Sri Lankan culture better known to, and understood by, non-Tamil peoples, toward the end of establishing cross-cultural and cross-national alliances.
Could be re-worded...perhaps....
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Efforts are being made throughout the world to make Sri Lankan culture better known to, and understood by, non-Tamil peoples, to establish cross-cultural and cross-national alliances.
  • Sri Lankans adapt to Scaborough as a major area to immigrate to.
Is this sentence needed at all?
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Section named Nicknames
Can this section be closer or a part of naming?
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It runs from Kennedy subway station to McCowan Avenue, just east of the Scarborough Town Centre.
About how long is this? I have no idea of where in the world McCowan Ave and Town Centre are...if this is a little 1 mile (km) hop or a twenty mile (km) dash.
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • GO Transit authority
Is GO an abbreviation?
It's not an abbrev. It's uppercase for purely style reasons. Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • CN railway lines
What does CN stand for?
done Gary King (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
As the CN railway lines are mentioned as a reference for the roads, are the rails abandoned? There is no direct mention made of them for transport in Scarborough?
  • Transportation highways
mention is made of the 401 and Highway 2A where do they connect Scarborough to? They must help the economy by transport from and to Scarborough to/from somewhere.
done Gary King (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Section named Sister cities
What is a sister city?
Explanation not needed according to guideline; example FA: Bangalore#Sister Cities Gary King (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Quite a few referential websites refer to TTC buses
Can the mention of the Toronto Transit Commission be followed by TTC?
done Gary King (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Double check American-Canadian use of spelling. Most words seem to be Canadian, but the semi-automatic peer-review program is still picking up a mix of words.
    done Gary King (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Semi automatic peer reviewer would suggest a longer lead which introduces all sections...Wikipedia:Lead
    done Gary King (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
2. Factually accurate?:
  • Reference 7^ a b McCowan, Bruce. "Scarborough Fair The first settlers foraged 10,000 years ago", Toronto Star. Retrieved on July 19, 2006.
This article from the newspaper should have the newspaper date and page. Was the newspaper read on July 19, 2006, or was the newspaper dated July 19, 2006.Citation templates
done Gary King (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
    1. ^ Papp, Leslie. "Province and Ottawa buy native burial site", Toronto Star. Retrieved on July 20, 2006.
Same note as above
done Gary King (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Reference 29^ "Street talk; Ontario Edition"
Same note as above...If I was to pop into the newspaper office or library to look up the microfilm of this newspaper edition, where would I begin? What date?...What page would also help?
done Gary King (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Reference 14 is a nice piece about Highland creek, the largest residential and business centre...the paragraph is about the geophysical feature Highland Creek.
  • Reference 15 got lost.
  • Reference 22 ^ Ferenc, Leslie (May 18, 2006). Scarborough stars shine on Walk of Fame. Toronto Star. Retrieved on June 15, 2006. :got lost.
  • Reference 23 an 24 need to be paid for...is this good reference?
3. Broad in coverage?: Compared to the other Former municipalities of Toronto which were also amalgamated in 1998... Can there be mention of education, sports, and amenities such as major shopping centers, health care, the golden mile
As there are wonderful articles written on the neighborhoods, education, and people of Scarborough, can there be a introductory paragraph to these, so that their can be included the see also in a section. There is a brief mention of the people, in culture already, so the list of people could have a see also link below the section header here.
4. Neutral point of view?:
  • Reference 16 seems to say crime is being attended to, but is aware of the challenges to overcome or which may be faced.
  • Reference 27 seems to suggest that Scarborough is somewhat shunned due to its rep.
  • The last paragraph of the Demographics section gives an impression that may not reflect accurately the combination of ref 16 and 27.
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Image:Scarborough, Ontario Coat of Arms.JPG needs non-free use rationale
done Gary King (talk) 01:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
This image Image:Bluffs3.jpg is under review for deletion as it may be a duplicate copy.
done Gary King (talk) 01:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


Overall an interesting and bascially well done article about Scarborough, will put on hold for the minor tweaks above.

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. SriMesh | talk 00:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Wow! Thank you for your prompt changes! Zoom zoom. I have passed the article. Kind Regards, SriMesh | talk 04:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination

(Version reviewed for GA pass)

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of May 3, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Pass
2. Factually accurate?: Pass
3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Pass
 If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.SriMesh | talk 04:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Issues remain

Promotion of this article was perhaps a bit premature. There are still issues with the GA criteria.

The history section is very short. It starts out reasonably good, but in the end, doesn't tell much about the city itself. The 'naming' subsection isn't exactly history, and really belongs in a main section entitled 'etymology'. Please expand -- this is an issue with the completeness criterion.

The geography section needs to have information on climate. Sometimes, it's included as a subsection. The placement of the two images in this subsection also overlap with each other unless your monitor resolution is very high and is widescreen. Placement should be adjusted for the lowest common denominator so that there is no overlap. It would also be a good idea to begin the geography section with a link to the geographical map coordinates of the town -- e.g. 'Scarborough is located at ...coords...'.

Again, image placement of the two images in the demographics section is poor. Images should never be placed so that text flow begins between two images, as this causes serious issues for those with lower screen resolutions. Places images to the left and/or right only.

This sentence "Scarborough residents have developed their own unique sense of humour, as evidenced by Mike Myers, whose Wayne's World character was inspired by growing up in the area." needs a citation. As does this one: "The Scarborough Town Centre is the largest commercial and entertainment hub east of Yonge Street in Toronto."

Also, mentioning movies filmed in a city, and a few notable celebrities, really doesn't say much about a town's overall culture. This information is better presented in a 'media & popular culture' section, which goes into newspaper, radio and television, and might also cover some information on some films and tv shows filmed or based there. Notable celebrities might be included in a brief listing at the end of the article ('notable people') -- although be careful with this section, as it often is a target for vandalism. People like to add all sorts of non-notable people there -- it's best if you write that section as prose.

This sentence: "Scarborough is the home of Ontario's first elevated rapid transit line, the Scarborough RT." needs a citation.

There's no information on the local government, or education, anywhere in the article. There's a 'see also' link to 'Educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario', but that's awkwardly placed at the top of the 'infrastructure' section. The daughter article in question is actually very short, and I would recommend merging it into the main article, into a 'education' section. But try not to make it just a list of schools -- you should cover the overall educational environment, and how the schools interact among each other. Maybe provide some information on statistics of the population as well.

Please address these issues within one week, or the article will be delisted from WP:GA. Dr. Cash (talk) 22:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I have been working on some of these proposed changes. So far:
  • Expanded on etymology section
  • Expanded Geography section to include Topography, Physical description, and Climate.
  • Fixed pix in Demographics
  • Added sections on Governance and Education
  • Expanded on Infrastructure. Split into subsections, added Water and sewage; reworded public transit section.
To do
  • add more text to Geography
  • expand History section
  • reconfigure Arts and culture
EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 04:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The history section looks ok. I would recommend eliminating both of the subsections, and reintegrating the items under 'political history' into chronological order into the rest of the text. Sections should also not begin with a subsection header; some intro text should be present.

The climate subsection needs to have more text than just a table. Discuss, in prose. See the example in Flagstaff, Arizona#Climate.

The arts and culture section looks ok, but I would still not begin with the discussion on notable individuals; you want to focus on a discussion of the actual people and residents in the town, not on a few select celebrities. I just don't see how the fact that Mike Myers grew up there is "evidence" of the sense of humor of every other resident in town?

The lead could still use fixing up a bit. A good lead section should be a good summary of the article; an ideal length would be about three paragraphs, though mileage varies here. Please see WP:LEAD for more tips on improving this section.

Ok, I think that's the four major issues that remain with the article. Once they are addressed, I think the article will meet the GA criteria, and will no longer be in danger of delisting. Dr. Cash (talk) 20:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I've done some more work on the history section. I eliminated the subsections and grouped the information more or less chronologically. I added some text to the Climate subsection, although it's not much different than the Toronto version. I am still working on the intro and will get to the Arts and Culture section at some point. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 01:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Scarberia

The Etymology section claims that the name "Scarberia" is "a reference to its seemingly distant eastern location from downtown Toronto", and cites a column by Rosie DiManno. However, if you actually read DiManno's column, what she says is that "Scarberia" refers to "urban blandness verging on blight". That's also my understanding of the term -- people don't compare it to Siberia because it's in the east; they do so because it's perceived as a bland, barren wasteland (no offense; I know it's not, but passing through on an arterial road, it can certainly give that impression). So I think the wiki article is definitely sanitizing things a little by ignoring the negative connotations of the comparison with Siberia. WillNL (talk) 22:33, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Crime

Perhaps the relative prominent murder cases of Paul Bernardo and Luka Magnotta should be added to this chapter. --Sagehorn (talk) 16:57, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

wording suggestion

INSTEAD OF:

"Highland Creek is the most urbanized watershed in the Toronto area without about 85% of its land use devoted to urban uses.[18] "

HOW ABOUT:

"Highland Creek is the most urbanized watershed in the Toronto area -- about 85% of its land area is devoted to urban uses."

?? Wanderer57 (talk) 20:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Huh?

"In 2006, Scarborough's population was 602,575, with a density of 3,161 people per square kilometer (1,220 per sq mi)."

This is startling news since a mile is much bigger than a kilometer. (or used to be at least)

Wanderer57 (talk) 20:53, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

FYI

"The deep valley the creek cuts in its bottom sections remains primarily parkland, with little or no development taking place within the valley."

I don't know if this is worth mentioning in the article but development (ie, construction) in the valley is not legal due to flood risk. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:22, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Economy section - Telus

Are the headquaters of Telus located here? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Several Nicknames??

Quoting our article:"Scarborough has acquired several nicknames. The most popular is Scarberia, a portmanteau of Scarborough and Siberia, a reference to its seemingly distant eastern location from downtown Toronto.[6] "

There is no source for the statement about Scarborough having several nicknames. It should be supported or removed.

The source [6] given does not support the statement that Scarberia is the "most popular nickname" of multiple nicknames. Nor does it support the notion that Scarborough's problem is its distance from downtown Toronto.

I'm not saying that the distance from downtown Toronto (and the transportation available) isn't a problem. In fact I think it is. But there is a disconnect between the statements and the sources that are purported to support those statements. Wanderer57 (talk) 06:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Check the archives. There was a lengthy discussion in 2006. The issue about nicknames was settled then. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 12:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion Updaticus. I'll take a look at the archives. But my concern is not with what was discussed and decided seven years ago. It is that the current version of the article has unsourced statements. Unless the 2006 discussion concluded that this article was somehow exempt from the need to provide sources, I don't think the archives will resolve my concern. Wanderer57 (talk) 06:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Scarlem et al, again

Given the recent deletion (yet again) of cited content about offensive nicknames for the community, I wanted to open a discussion about such names. I don't think this material should be deleted, but perhaps we can better balance some of it. Regarding Scarlem specifically, here are a few additional refs:

  • Daswani, Girish; Bunce, Susannah; Cummings, Maggie (December 2011), Ali, Mehrunnisa A. (ed.), Citizenship and urban space intersections of housing, services, identity, and belonging for newcomers in Kingston-Galloway/Orton Park, Scarborough (PDF), CERIS - Ontario Metropolis Centre
  • Richardson, Christopher (June 2012). "Between Scarlem and the ivory tower: An autoethnographic examination of marginaility in Canadian communication and media studies" (PDF). Canadian Journal of Media Studies. 10. University of Western Ontario.
  • Cowen, Deborah; Parlette, Vanessa (June 2011), Inner Suburbs at Stake: Investing in Social Infrastructure in Scarborough (PDF), University of Toronto Cities Centre, ISBN 9780772714824, ISSN 0316-0068
  • Basu, Ranu (February 2013), Integrative multiplicity through suburban realities: Exploring diversity through public spaces in Scarborough, CERIS - Ontario Metropolis Centre

There are surely other sources that discuss the issue of this and other nicknames in greater depth. Mindmatrix 20:52, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Demographics edit

In 2006, Scarborough's population was 602,575, with a density of 3,161 people per square kilometer (1,220 per sq mi). A study based on census data between 1996 and 2001 shows that Scarborough's growth rate was more than 6%, the highest growth in Toronto. Its population is third, behind Old Toronto and North York, but if this trend continues it should be the most populated district in Toronto by 2010."When you want to know Scarborough, Ontario". Scarborough Direct. Retrieved 2008-05-02.

I removed this paragraph from the demographics section. It was originally added in 2006 and updated twice. It is suspect because,

  • The last census data for Scarborough as a community (according to Census Canada) was 2001.
  • The current source is unreliable. The original source no longer exists.
  • The last line is out of date and is probably original research.

If you have any issues with this edit, please discuss it here. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 15:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I removed the ref tags so that the given reference appears here rather than at the bottom of the page. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 08:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Climate

I have checked and can't find any sources for historical weather at all for L'Amoreaux. The Weather Network seems to be the only place that has any current, but no historical, weather for L'Amoreaux. Also the year span is wrong as climate normals are calculated over a 30 year span and are explained here. Nobody uses a 30 year span that starts in 1985. However, Environment Canada does not have a weather station listed at Scarborough, L'Amoreaux or Malvern in their historical weather records. But this 8 MB CSV file has Toronto Malvern listed. On top of this the IP is falsifying or using their personal experience for the source. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 08:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Malvern data is sourced and verifiable. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 22:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

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Please move this page back

All location articles in Ontario should follow location, Ontario (where ambiguous) per discussions in the past at Wikiproject Canada. Scarborough was only a municipality within the region of Toronto, and it no longer exists whatsoever. We don't have Markham, York Region or Stoney Creek, Hamilton. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:21, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Floydian on the end result, but not on the statement that all municipalities should follow location, Ontario. I would note that although this article should be at Scarborough, Ontario, that isn`t the case for all neighbourhoods or communities. Most neighbourhoods and communities should, in fact, be at location, municipality, with some exceptions for former municipalities such as Scarborough and Stoney Creek (Markham is not a good comparable, because it is still a separate municipality). Please see WP:CANSTYLE#Neighbourhoods/communities for the naming convention. Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I won t try to rename the page again but disagree with the present naming. These are communities within Toronto now, nothing more officially, despite what they once were. For urban areas, the disambiguate should be the administrative entity immediate above, I think. (I don t think it should be for rural areas, however - contradictory as this viewpoint is.) Mayumashu (talk) 18:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Scarborough Junction is a community within Toronto, but Scarborough has ceased to exist as anything but a name recognized by Canada Post. Communities are a different example than incorporated municipalities. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Which is my point - there is no Scarborough, Ontario, so having a page by that name is rather wrong. I disagree that Scarborough ceases to exist as a commnunity however, for people who live there, for one, will still refer to living in quote on quote Scarborough. This is why I think the page should be named 'Scarborough, Toronto' Mayumashu (talk) 09:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
"Scarborough, Ontario" follows the "most commonly used/recognisable name in English" convention usually used to name pages. That it's a former place and not a current place is irrelevant, encyclopaedic formatting should mean formatting in a current-date independent way. WilyD 16:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Looks like someone moved this recently without discussion, and now all the Scarborough Categories have followed suit. I'd like to move it back, if there is a consensus to do so. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree, it shouldn't be Scarborough, Toronto as per what ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ said. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Oppose It's part of Toronto now. Using Scarborough, Ontario would imply an article about someplace in Ontario. Or it would imply an article about the place that existed separately before being merged into Toronto. A history article in other words and not about the current district, which people still refer to. And thirdly, all of the other articles about places/neighbourhoods/former towns within Toronto use the ,Toronto prefix. We should not deviate. Alaney2k (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Comment: A community is not necessarily defined by the municipality it's in. A lot of the amalgamations of the early 2000s created unnatural municipalities, like here in Ottawa. Scarborough is not just a neighbourhood, it's a community. People still use it in their mailing addresses. In other cases of amalgamations, we've still kept the province in the article title where appropriate. Why should Toronto be any different? -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:11, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
What would be the sense in moving the Toronto articles which are appended by ", Toronto"? There are a fair number of those. Parkdale, Ontario, Swansea, Ontario, etc. It just makes it vague. So what if people put Scarborough, Ontario on their paper letters, etc. That should not over-ride reality. In policy, having a ", Ontario" available rule exists to support villages like the disparate ones in Ottawa. Distinct towns and villages within a combined spread-out rural municipality. It doesn't make Scarborough any different from what exists in reality. It is its own district within Toronto. That much is alive and active. There is no space between Scarborough and the rest of Toronto. Not like Navan or Greely or Richmond at all. Alaney2k (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario

There is an ongoing AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario which may be of interest. It appears that List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario was split out from this Scarborough article in 2008. It is now proposed that it be deleted. --doncram 17:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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