Talk:Savage Model 1907

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This article states "derived from the .45 semi-automatic pistol Savage submitted to the 1906-1911 US Army trials". Quite a number of gun dealer and gun history sites I have visited state otherwise. According to them, the Savage 1907 .32 cal firearm was first produced (in 1908), followed closely by the 1907 .38 cal firearm. According to those sites, Savage Arms responded to a Federal request for submission for a .45 cal semi-automatic weapon, and made only about 200 of them based on the original 1907 .32 and .38 cal design that already was being sold to the public.

Quoting from the article in the National Firearms Museum site at :

"Another firm, Savage Arms, also produced a semi-automatic pistol for these series of trials that represented the company's first and only attempt at development of a military sidearm. This particular pistol, designated the "Model 1907 Savage Calibre .45 ACP" was one of two finalists in the competition eventually won by the Colt Model of 1911. The Savage Model 1907 had its origins three years earlier, when inventor Elbert H. Searle and his business partner, William D. Condit approached Savage about a single-action semi-automatic pistol that Searle had designed. Savage expressed an interest in working with Searle to develop his design. After the Army announced a series of military trials, Searle produced a .45 caliber version of the pistol."

Would someone please confirm the order of production and clarify the article?

Please respond to savage@rcrco.com 67.233.230.63 (talk) 18:10, 4 June 2012 (UTC)savage@rcrco.com

--- Well, much of what appears on gun dealer sites (and even in standard firearm references) in regard to other than very well-known and studied historic firearms can best be described as "educated guesses" (ie, sometimes "probable BS"). In my experience this is certainly true for the Savage semi-automatic pistols, which were not really regarded as collectible until the 1960s and 1970s, decades after they had ended production and long after the original Savage Arms had disappeared. Even now, the remaining early factory records are held by a private collector and not the present Savage Arms company.

On the relationship between the Savage .45 prototypes (these went through several revisions) and the smaller .32 and .380 commercial production pocket pistols, it is pretty clear that the first Army .45 prototype appeared at the Army's initial pistol competition in January 1907, before the .32 model 1907 began production in 1908, but that the .32 model 1907 was in production before the final Army .45 prototype was tested at final pistol trial in March 1911, in which the only contenders were the latest revisions of the Savage and Colt pistols.

see: : "When the U.S. Army expressed an interest in semiautomatic sidearms in 1905, Savage entered the .45-caliber Model 1907 in the military trials. The design was later scaled down for the civilian pocket pistol market."

see: : "Though the exact circumstances of how Savage Arms Company and Elbert Searle came together are unknown, it appears that William Condit approached Savage in late 1904 after the patent was filed for Searle’s second pistol design. Both sides realized the promise of the design for military applications. The relationship blossomed in earnest in February 1906 when the U.S. Army sent out notice that it wanted .45 caliber automatic pistols for a test in September.

Apparently Searle started working at Savage’s Utica plant, furiously trying to refine his design and have a prototype manufactured in time for the fall trials. He looked destined to fail until the Army postponed the trials until January 15 of the following year, giving him time to finish the project.

An eight-shot prototype pistol, which featured several improvements over Searle’s original design was completed in time for the January 1907 trials. The modifications included a new slide lock, ejector, and action. There was also an ingenious lanyard loop (a nod to its military goal) that could be folded up in to the grip when not in use. Searle filed a patent application for these changes on April 25, 1907; patent No. 936,369 was granted on October 12, 1909. This design, without a lanyard ring, is what became commercially identified as the Model 1907 pocket pistol when it was manufactured in .32 caliber."

BTW, it is not true that "the Savage 1907 .32 cal firearm was first produced (in 1908), followed closely by the 1907 .38 cal firearm" and not possible that the .45 pistols were based on the .380 pistols. While the .32 Savage model 1907 began production in 1908, the .380 Savage model 1907 did not begin production until 1913, five years later and two years after the end of the Army pistol trials. (The .380 pistol is only slightly different from the .32, using most of the same parts other than those directly related to the larger size of the .380 round). FWIW, the .380 round (aka 9mm short or 9x17mm) is not the same as a .38 round (there are a number of different .38 rounds), and Savage never made a pistol in .38.

The books by Carr and Stern (the first really reliable examinations of the Savage pistols, written in the 1960s and long out of print) and Brower cited in the resource section of the Wiki article will provide more information. 67.131.107.98 (talk) 22:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

References

Major Elbert H. Searle

This was the designer of this particular type of delayed or "hesitated" blowback system for the .45 and the later .32 Savage models. There isn't a whole lot I can find on Searle, but he was the designer. William J Bean (talk)

Only the middle link below works. I have found some patent drawings/descriptive text on these designs. One in particular seems to be the initial specification for the Savage 1907. William J Bean (talk)