Talk:Samurai/Archive 2
 | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Citation tag mania
You know, I am all for providing references and verifying information. However, I detest when I visit a page that is in need of citation, and some obsessive person has inserted the Citation tag after every other sentence. Yes, we get the point, but it is not necessary to mark up the entire page with fact-tags. HINT: the cleanup/citation tag at the top of the page is much more effective at pointing out the need for help. (end rant) Historymike (talk) 02:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Dude!
There are a lot of un-verified claims in this article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.6.172 (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
NO kidding!!! Not only were the Samurai extremely literate from the 7th century and especially the 12th century onward, by the time of Meiji restoration they had higher literacy than Europe!
http://books.google.com/books?id=4kGJ86s8MB4C&pg=PA51&dq=literacy+in+japan&lr=&sig=BPrIW9cFNPLlfv9oRnkECOqEdHM http://books.google.com/books?id=8W_FjIMpOEkC&pg=PT46&dq=literacy+in+japan&lr=&sig=YaHKZngrWI77D0Sygewd3ycRY_4#PPT46,M1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC) http://books.google.com/books?id=GDfJ2NCETdAC&pg=PA258&dq=literacy+in+japan&lr=&sig=ILDj48MKKD28j0DAu4HjTmJo39o
this book also mentions literacy rates
http://books.google.com/books?id=EFQYAAAAIAAJ&q=literacy+in+japan&dq=literacy+in+japan&lr=&pgis=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.41.21 (talk) 19:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
IVE SPENT YEARS STUDYING THIS TOPIC, DECADES ACTUALLY. WHO EVER WROTE THE FOLLOWING IS FULL OF IT. WHAT THE WRITER BELOW MEANS HE HASNT READ ANYTHING AND SO IT DOESNT EXIST.
THE REALITY IS THAT THERE IS PLENTY OF LITERATURE BACKING THE HEIKE MONOGATARI IDEAL OF THE EDUCATED WARRIOR
>It is necessary to remember, however, that the Heike warriors are men fictionalized by a fourteenth >century dramatist, and the tales about such warriors had been modified for centuries before the >Tale of the Heike was actually written down.
>Thus, while we can, if careful, see some of how warriors behaved in literary sources, the actual >behavior of early samurai is difficult to glean from literature alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 19:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Need to extend introduction
After This section “Samurai (侍?) is the term for the military nobility of pre-industrial Japan. The word samurai is derived from the archaic Japanese verb samorau, changed to saburau, meaning "to serve"; thus, a samurai is a servant, i.e. the servant of a lord.” Their needs to be a more for an un knowing reader to be able to grasp the subject better. Something like this “the samurai, an elite class of armored warriors, dominated Japan from the 12th century. Their fighting prowess and tradition of loyal service to the death – enshrined in the chivalric code of bushido – are the stuff of legend. But in reality, samurai ascendancy brought instability, vilenc and civil war". [1] .". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cisalter (talk • contribs) 00:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC) diablo -w- here Amanda —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.48.236.214 (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Ieyasu brought peace for 268 years to a country torn apart by violence and warfare. The undoing of his society was caused by many things--outsiders, the relaxation of laws that kept peace such as sankin kotai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 19:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
REMOVING FALSE DATA
>However, Bushido was never a code of ethics per se, and only in the late nineteenth, early twentieth >century did the term gain popular currency.[citation needed] >For most of samurai history, warriors described themselves as followers of "kyuba no michi," or the "way of the bow and horse," and >had no overlying code of ethics to which they were beholden.[citation needed] To be sure, samurai were expected to comport >themselves in a certain manner, but any specific points of behavior would have been limited to family or clan teachings.[citation needed]
--I HAVE NEVER SEEN A WARRIOR DESCRIBE HIMSELF AS A FOLLOWER OF "kyuba no michi,"--EVER. IT WAS A TERM DESCRIBING THE WARRIOR PATH, BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE SAY IN WRITING "I FOLLOW KYUBA NO MICHI" WHO EVER WROTE THIS IS IGNORANT OF HISTORY.
--WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS WARRIORS TELLING THEIR FOLLOWERS TO STUDY LITERATURE AND "BUSHIDO" OR "BUDO" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bushid%C5%8D EXAMPLES:
One should put forth great effort in matters of learning. One should read books concerning military matters, and direct his attention exclusively to the virtues of loyalty and filial piety.
"If a man does not investigate into the matter of Bushido daily, it will be difficult for him to die a brave and manly death. Thus it is essential to engrave This business of the warrior into one's mind well."
The above conditions should be adhered to night and day. if there is anyone who finds these conditions difficult to fulfill, he should be dismissed, an investigation should be quickly carried out, it should be signed and sealed that he was unable to mature in the Way of Manhood, and he should be driven out. To this, there is no doubt."
TO ALL SAMURAI
Kato Kazuenokami Kiyomasa
EXAMPLE 2
"Without knowledge of Learning, one will ultimately have no military victories."
"It is natural that training in the martial arts is the Way of the warrior, but it is important to put them into actual practice. First, it is written in the Four Books and Five Classics as well as in the military writings that in protecting the country, if one is ignorant in the study of literature, he will be unable to govern.
Being born into a family that has from the beginning earnestly known the Way of Battle, it is truly regrettable to wastefully tamper with the domain, support no soldiers, and receive the scorn of all."
Thus the above is written
in the 19th year of Oei (1412 A.D.)
Imagawa Ryoshun
EXAMPLE 3
It is not the Way of the Warrior to be shamed and avoid death even under circumstances that are not particularly important. It goes without saying that to sacrifice one's life for the sake of his master is an unchanging principle.
That I should be able to go ahead of all the other warriors of this country and lay down my life for the sake of my master's benevolence is an honor to my family and has been my most fervent desire for many years.--TORII MOTOTADA, 1600AD
EXAMPLE 4
No matter whether a person belongs to the upper or lower ranks, if he has not put his life on the line at least once he has cause for shame.
"Bushido is in being crazy to die. Fifty or more could not kill one such a man." --Nabeshima Naoshige (1538-1618 A.D.)--LORD NABESHIMA'S ADVICE AND WRITINGS WERE PASSED DOWN TO HIS SON AND GRANDSON, THE LORD OF TSUNETOMO YAMAMOTO, AUTHOR OF THE HAGAKURE. NABESHIMA WAS A WISE RULER WHO SAVED HIS CLAN FROM DESTRUCTION DURING THE SENGOKU JIDAI.
AND BY THE WAY, IMAGAWA'S WRITINGS WERE WIDESPREAD ACROSS THE REALM AND FOLLOWED BY OTHER FAMILIES. OTHER WARRIORS ACTUALLY QUOTE HIM IN THEIR OWN WRITINGS. THEY WERE SO FAMOUS THAT TOKUGAWA SOUGHT THEM OUT 200 YEARS LATER TO USE AS FEUDAL LAW DURING HIS SHOGUNATE.
kATO WAS SO FAMOUS, HE WAS CHOSEN TO LEAD PRETTY MUCH ALL OF THE COUNTRY'S MAJOR FAMILIES IN KOREA--MORE THAN 300,000 MEN, OVER WHICH HE HAD DIRECT CONTROL OF 150,000. HIS CODE AND BELIEFS WERE UNIFORM AND WELL KNOWN TO THE SAMURAI OF PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE COUNTRY SO LETS STICK WITH THE FACTS HERE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 19:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
SEE THE BUSHIDO TALK PAGE FOR FULL BIBLIO IN BOTH JAPANESE AND ENGLISH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bushid%C5%8D
Education and culture
THE HISTORY OF WARRIOR CULTURE IN JAPAN--EXCERPT FROM WILLIAM SCOTT WILSON (INCLUDES PROPER JAPANESE KANJI AND TERMINOLOGY)
Origin of the Warrior
In Japanese there are several terms that approach the meaning of "warrior," but the closest in usage and feeling is probably the term bushi (武 ±). Breaking down the character bu (武) reveals the radical (止), meaning "to stop," and an abbreviation of the radical (戈 ) "spear." The Shuo Wen, an early Chinese dictionary, gives this definition: "Bu consists of subduing the weapon and therefore stopping the spear." The Tso Chuan, another early Chinese source, goes further:
Bu consists of bun (文): literature or letters, and generally the arts of peace) stopping the spear. Bu prohibits violence and subdues weapons ... it puts the people at peace, and harmonizes the masses.
The radical shi (±) on the other hand seems to have originally meant a person who performs some function or who has the ability in some field. Early in Chinese history it came to define the upper class of society, and in the Book of Han this definition is given :
The shi, the farmer, the craftsman, and the tradesman are the four professions of the people. He who occupies his rank by means of learning is called a shi.
This should not be misleading, however, because the shi, as the highest of the four classes, brandished the weapons as well as the books. Historically, these shi originated in the late Chou and Warring States Period as the superfluous landed descendants of nobility—well-educated and armed, owing allegiance to no one in particular—farmed out to the provinces because their number over-burdened (or worried) the court. Bushi therefore seems to have meant a man who has the ability to keep the peace, either by literary or military means, but pre-dominantly by the latter. In a book from the Han Period, for example, we find this entry:
Therefore, the gentleman avoids the three extremities. He avoids the extremity of the pen of the literary man; he avoids the extremity of the halberd of the military man; and he avoids the extremity of the tongue of the advocate.
The word bushi likely entered the Japanese vocabulary with the general introduction of Chinese learning and was added to the indigenous words, tsuwamono and mononofu. Its earliest appearance in writing was in the Shoku Nihongi, an early history of Japan completed in 797 A.D. In a section of that book covering the year 723, we read:
Again, the August Personage said, "Literary men and warriors are they whom the nation values."
It is important to keep in mind the connotation of the peaceful arts with this term, for although the bun and the bu were very clearly contrasted, they were at the same time considered essential qualities of the superior man by both the Chinese and Japanese. We will see this distinctly from the Japanese warrior's point of view in these translations.
The other term used for the Japanese military man was samurai, written either 士 or 侍 . In Chinese, the character 侍 was originally a verb meaning to wait upon or accompany a person in the upper ranks of society, and this is also true of the original term in Japanese, saburau. In both countries the terms were nominalized to mean "those who serve in close attendance to the nobility," the pronunciation in Japanese changing to saburai. An early reference to this word is found in the Kokinshu, the first imperial anthology of poems, completed in the first part of the tenth century.
Attendant to nobility
Ask for your master's umbrella.
The dews neath the trees of Miyagino
Are thicker than rain.
(Poem 1091)
From the middle of the Heian Period these attendants served as guardians to the higher nobility and thus carried weapons. As they were taken more and more from the warrior class, saburai became synonymous with bushi almost entirely by the end of the 12th century. As time went on, the word was closely associated with the middle and upper echelons of the warrior class, and especially those who were involved in government or clan administration, or those who were direct vassals.
The origin of the men who carried these names coincided with the development of the shoen (estate) system. This system evolved in the late centuries of the first millenium as large rice producing estates were claimed as hereditary possessions of great aristocratic families and thus became exempt from taxation and other interference from the central government. At the same time, the administration of the public tax-paying domains—still one-half of the tilled land in the late 12th century—gradually fell into the hands of deputies appointed by provincial governors. These lower-ranking deputy positions also tended to become hereditary, and the families who received them often remained in the provinces, extending their households and private lands. As a result of these policies, both the shoen and the public provinces became virtually independent of the central government authorities.
The history of the bushi as a class begins at this point. With the progressive inability of the central government to maintain order in the provinces, both the administrators of public domains and the proprietors of private estates began to develop their own armies to protect their interests in the ensuing struggles over land and title. This movement was actually initiated by the court itself as early as 792 with the introduction of the kondei system, a system that recruited local "physically able" young men, the sons of district chiefs, to keep order in the provinces, and essentially hastened the abandonment of the concept of a government militia (Lu, 1974). These defense groups, which grew gradually between the ninth and 12th centuries, tended to be organized along family lines, taking in non-related members of the agricultural community as ke'nin (house men) as time went on. As they grew in strength they were often able to discard the aristocratic absentee landlords of the manors they "protected." The need for legitimacy was fulfilled in the lineage of their leaders who were, if not the descendants of the ancient aristocratic uji (clans predating the origin of the warrior class), were descendants of the imperial line itself.
Thus, the Japanese bushi were reminiscent of the Chinese shi who had flourished centuries before. Aristocratic by birth, they were not uneducated; being landholders or administrators of estates and often whole provinces, they had income to support the armory and horses necessary to the warrior class.
Eventually, the civil government lost control not only of the provinces, but of the capital itself. In 1156, a succession dispute called the Hogen Disturbance broke out between imperial princes, and leaders of the two major bushi clans, the Taira and Minamoto, were called upon to back one pretender or another. The result of the clash was the temporary emergence of the Taira and eclipse of the Minamoto, but more importantly, the beginning of warrior rule: Taira Kiyomori, the head of his clan, not only took military control of Kyoto, but also began to dominate the court as well. The Taira in turn were crushed in 1185 by a re-emergence of the Minamoto, and with this event bushi rule became complete. The leader of the Minamoto forces, Yoritomo, established the bakufu. This organization in one form or another would be the basic government apparatus in Japan for the next 700 years.
The new warrior government strengthened its already powerful position through economic means. With the defeat of Taira, Yoritomo was able to claim extensive holdings expropriated from the defeated enemy, many of which he used as rewards, either as private estates or administrative appointments, for those who had supported him. This action broadened the warriors' economic base considerably, and created a vassalage for Yoritomo and later the bakufu in general. The warrior was now entirely in control.
The image of the aristocratic warrior described in the early chronicles tells only part of the story. Although many of its leaders came from aristocratic or even imperial lineage, the ranks of the samurai class were bolstered by the low class ashigaru (foot soldier), who did not share the cultural background or economic means of his betters. Still, some of these men and their families came up through the ranks rewarded for ability or feats of courage. They became, if not aristocrats, upper-class warriors and generals. This phenomenon was most pronounced during the Warring States Period, and the extreme example would be that of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who rose from a very low estate to be the most powerful ruler in the country. Ironically, this was the same man who, beginning with the famous "sword hunt" of 1588 and through an edict in 1591, closed the social mobility by which he and others had risen, enclosing Japanese society within the four classes of warriors, farmers, artisans and merchants.
Finally, it was the warrior class that in large part carried on the cultural heritage received from the fading court aristocracy. From the time of Taira, the temptation to stay in the capital and dally in literary or other cultural affairs had been detrimental to the clan's survival and even to the warrior class' ruling position, and the various leaders were able to deal with this problem with varying degrees of success. At least some cultural attainment was considered important by almost all of the great warrior leaders, and a rise in the power or social status of a warrior or clan was usually accompanied by a corresponding effort to attain similar heights in the world of culture. The examples of the castle towns at Ichijogatani and Odawara built by the Asakura and the later Hojo demonstrate this tendency to a remarkable degree. Under this impetus and the image of the correct balance of bun and bu, the ideal of the scholar-warrior would survive even after the battles were long over. It would be a mistake, however, to think that all samurai were lettered. For although a more democratic education among the warriors gained momentum as time went on, it had certainly not been fully realized—despite the social position of the class as a whole—even by the late 17th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 05:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Concerning #6
Reply to the author of #6,
The manner in which you attack the changes in the article and your method of writing compel me to form a rebuttal. If you have spent decades studying the subject, and if you can actually read Japanese (and could type properly-all caps? give me a break...) you would know that the Heike monogatari is fiction, based off of a different yet still fictional work called the Gempei Josuiki (or seisuiki). Most war tales were written not by warriors but by entertainers or religious figures. While this does not preclude their information from being accurate, it does make it somewhat suspect. Furthermore, here, and in a post elsewhere, you further announce your ignorance of Japanese, because in original Japanese works Japanese warriors often called themselves followers of "kyuba no michi." Even Imagawa Rysohun refers to it. One last thing: you claim samurai needed to be literate even in the seventh century. That is perhaps the dumbest claim I have ever heard. Samurai did not exist in that period. Provincial warriors were beginning to specialize in mounted warfare around that time and were leaders in the newly created Chinese-style armies (as a result of the Taika Reforms of 645), but they were certainly not called samurai at the time. The first work of Japanese literature was not even written until the early 8th century, and the legal document called the Yoro Codes in 718 (which is only one part of four other lost works).
Ultimately what I am trying to say is that basing opinions off of literary accounts is perilous. In doing so one would come to the conclusion that warriors were all literate, cultured men of honor since the dawn of their history, which is false. To you who doubt me, consider this: why all the need for men like Kato Kiyomasa and Imagawa Ryoshun to write "house laws"? It couldn't be because most of their lower ranking samurai did not have access to education and were wont more often than not to act in ways that the literature would consider duplicitous, could it? As is often the case, there are ideals and reality; separating the two is what is difficult.
Please try to read an actual history book next time you dispute a fact; even better, read them in the Japanese before you come off sounding like an ignoramus to people who actually know what they are talking about. Oh, and one last thing: please consider time periods and class. Your "citations" are fine, but you need to take temporal context into account. All your examples are from the 16 and 17th century and are from men of the uppper crust (even Yamamoto was not a low ranking warrior and the circumstances of the Edo period against which he was writing color his work), hardly a good example of a holistic overview of warrior philosophy. Come back when you have read more than a wikipedia article or the fluff presented in 99.9% of English study works on samurai. Read scholarly works written by authors like Karl Friday, G. Cameron Hurst, Paul Varley, William Wayne Farris, Helen McCullough, Marius Jansen, Andrew Goble, and the many other excellent scholars who have destroyed any semblance of the "honorable to the end" warrior myth that modern day martial arts and armchair scholars would like us to believe; avoid works by Turnbull, which are for the most part fluff (though a few good ones do exist), and do not pay attention to any martial arts books, for they are typically misinformed (I know: I have read them all) on most accounts. They are great reading, though, if one knows how to distinguish fact from fiction. Celedril (talk) 16:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Addendum: please stop changing the article because you want it to say what you "want" to believe, not what actually is proven by historians. I know it must be hard if you have invested your life in such a belief, and that in no way negates the ideal that you hold dear, but we need to realize fact from fiction and not fight the truth. Read the works I mentioned above, and if you still disagree, well, then you are actively deluding yourself, but look at some of the reference works therein (especially Japanese works) and further edify yourself. I am begging you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.109.121 (talk) 15:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Reply to the author of #8
-Amateur historians try to perpetuate this myth that There was no contact between the lords, they never shared ideas or had communication with each other. That is absolutely FALSE. The lords knew each other, shared ideas, technology, weapons and tactics. Kato and Imagawa were known to the entire country and were sought after for their wisdom, either administrative or in the battlefield. Kato had control over most of the countries major families in Korea and was known to those who he didn't control. Imagawa was very well known, during his lifetime and well afterwards. His writings and methods were sought after and employed by Ieyasu when he formulated Shogunate feudal law. The Imagawa writings were required study for traditional Japanese until World War II.
The manner in which you attack the changes in the article and your method of writing compel me to form a rebuttal. If you have spent decades studying the subject, and if you can actually read Japanese (and could type properly-all caps? give me a break...)
-The Caps are for emphasis.
you would know that the Heike monogatari is fiction, based off of a different yet still fictional work called the Gempei Josuiki (or seisuiki).
-I am aware that it is fictional, but the descriptions are important and significant, even if fictional because of the date of the books publication.
Most war tales were written not by warriors but by entertainers or religious figures. While this does not preclude their information from being accurate, it does make it somewhat suspect.
-I am aware of the origins
Furthermore, here, and in a post elsewhere, you further announce your ignorance of Japanese, because in original Japanese works Japanese warriors often called themselves followers of "kyuba no michi."
-Sadayo refers to "The way of the warrior" I have examined the original kanji of some of his more famous works and it mentions the "warrior ways" not "kyuba no michi".. I posted the origin of my info, you did not.
Even Imagawa Rysohun refers to it. One last thing: you claim samurai needed to be literate even in the seventh century.
--- the Shoku Nihongi, an early history of Japan completed in 797 A.D. In a section of that book covering the year 723, we read:
Again, the August Personage said, "Literary men and warriors are they whom the nation values."
--I NEVER said that. I said that there is mention of the warrior ideal of a balance between the literary and martial arts and this balance is mentioned in early literature as early as the 8th century, predating general introduction of confucianism. Even if it is a fictional work, this appearance is significant.
That is perhaps the dumbest claim I have ever heard.
--Thats because you just made that up so that you would have something to criticize in my otherwise accurate post.
Samurai did not exist in that period. Provincial warriors were beginning to specialize in mounted warfare around that time and were leaders in the newly created Chinese-style armies (as a result of the Taika Reforms of 645), but they were certainly not called samurai at the time.
-Are you not reading the material above, which i provided so that this article would be accurate? You should have seen the article BEFOREHAND.
The first work of Japanese literature was not even written until the early 8th century, and the legal document called the Yoro Codes in 718 (which is only one part of four other lost works).
-I gave quotes with dates and they are accurate.
Ultimately what I am trying to say is that basing opinions off of literary accounts is perilous. In doing so one would come to the conclusion that warriors were all literate, cultured men of honor since the dawn of their history, which is false.
--I NEVER said that. YOU DID.
To you who doubt me, consider this: why all the need for men like Kato Kiyomasa and Imagawa Ryoshun to write "house laws"? It couldn't be because most of their lower ranking samurai did not have access to education and were wont more often than not to act in ways that the literature would consider duplicitous, could it? As is often the case, there are ideals and reality; separating the two is what is difficult.
-Amateur historians try to perpetuate this myth that There was no contact between the lords, they never shared ideas or had communication with each other. That is absolutely FALSE. The lords knew each other, shared ideas, technology, weapons and tactics. Kato and Imagawa were known to the entire country and were sought after for their wisdom, either administrative or in the battlefield. Kato had control over most of the countries major families in Korea and was known to those who he didnt control. Imagawa was very well known. His writings and methods were employed by Ieyasu when he formulated Shogunate feudal law.
Please try to read an actual history book next time you dispute a fact; even better, read them in the Japanese before you come off sounding like an ignoramus to people who actually know what they are talking about. Oh, and one last thing: please consider time periods and class. Your "citations" are fine, but you need to take temporal context into account.
-I have read both the English and Japanese versions, unlike you.
All your examples are from the 16 and 17th century and are from men of the uppper crust (even Yamamoto was not a low ranking warrior and the circumstances of the Edo period against which he was writing color his work),
-Yamamoto wrote down the advice handed down by Naoshige. Didn't you know that? Most amateurs make that mistake. Yamamoto was documenting his lord's father's and grandfather's advice. You also forget that no one called the "EDo period" the Edo period until afterwards. You have the benefit of hindsight. War could have broken out at any time.
hardly a good example of a holistic overview of warrior philosophy. Come back when you have read more than a wikipedia article or the fluff presented in 99.9% of English study works on samurai. Read scholarly works written by authors like Karl Friday, G. Cameron Hurst, Paul Varley, William Wayne Farris, Helen McCullough, Marius Jansen, Andrew Goble, and the many other excellent scholars who have destroyed any semblance of the "honorable to the end" warrior myth that modern day martial arts and armchair scholars would like us to believe;
-Sorry, but i disagree with Hurst and Friday and they oversimplify a complex history. Hurst was also unaware of the Hagakure's background in Naoshige's writings. I have no problem with the rest, other than they could have researched more broadly. Some of them are motivated by other agendas and some are just out to make a buck and get publicity.
avoid works by Turnbull, which are for the most part fluff (though a few good ones do exist), and do not pay attention to any martial arts books, for they are typically misinformed (I know: I have read them all) on most accounts. They are great reading, though, if one knows how to distinguish fact from fiction. Celedril (talk) 16:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-Sorry, but even though Turnbull has some drawbacks, and many of his books are for beginners, I'd take his advice over the others anyday. I read the Japanese sources and the secondary American books. Turnbull is just fine.
Addendum: please stop changing the article because you want it to say what you "want" to believe, not what actually is proven by historians.
-I have posted my sources. So far all you have done is make up statements and attributed them to me and then criticized the statements YOU made up.
-Please do not change the article to contradict the warriors actual words.
I know it must be hard if you have invested your life in such a belief, and that in no way negates the ideal that you hold dear, but we need to realize fact from fiction and not fight the truth. Read the works I mentioned above, and if you still disagree, well, then you are actively deluding yourself, but look at some of the reference works therein (especially Japanese works) and further edify yourself. I am begging you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.109.121 (talk) 15:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
-I strive for historical accuracy. The background above on the origins of the warrior are accurate and prepared by an award winning translator and author. You are the one deluding yourself.
These writings were Translated by Steenstrup: (Except from author's Harvard dissertation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Carl_Steenstrup
- Imagawa Ryôshun. Imagawa-jô [also called Gusoku Nakaaki seishi jôjô 愚息仲秋制詞條々 and Imagawa heikisho 今川壁書]. Trans. by Carl Steenstrup, in "The Imagawa Letter: A Muromachi Warrior's Code of Conduct Which Became a Tokugawa Schoolbook." 28:3 (1973) ("Articles of Admonition by Imagawa Ryôshun to His Son Nakaaki") Attributed to Imagawa Sadayo 今川貞世 or Ryôshun 了俊 (1325-1420)
Hôjô Shigetoki (1198-1261) and his Role in the History of Political and Ethical Ideas in Japan, London 1979. (the author's Harvard University dissertation)
- "Hojo Shigetoki's Letter of Instruction to his Son Nagatoki," trans. "The Letter to Nagatoki" (Rokuhara Sagami no kami no shisoku wo oshiuru...jô 六波羅相模守ノ教子息...状), written between 1237 and 1247, pp. 417-38. Acta Orientalia 36 (1974)
- Hôjô Shigetoki. Gokurakuji-dono go-shôsoku.極楽寺殿御消息 ("The Gokurakuji Letter") by Hôjô Shigetoki 北条重時 (1198-1261)Trans. by Carl Steenstrup, in "The Gokurakuji Letter: Hôjô Shigetoki's Compendium of Political and Religious Ideas of Thirteenth-Century Japan." 32:1 (1977)
Hojo Soun's Twenty-one Articles: the code of conduct of Odawara Hojo' MN 29: 3 (Autumn, 1974), 283-303. [Hôjô Sôun 北条早雲 (1432-1519), Trans. of Sôunjidono nijûichi kajô 早雲寺殿廿一箇条 ("Twenty-One Articles by Lord Sôun")
and Wilson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Scott_Wilson
On of these works is 40 volumes and i have read only 2 so far.....
Gunsho Ruiju, Vol. 15. Tokyo: Keizai Zasshisha, 1895.
Yoshida, Yutaka. Buke no Kakun. Tokyo: Tokuma Shoten, 1973.
Zoku Gunsho Ruiju, Vol. 21. Tokyo: Zoku Gunsho Ruiju Kanseisha, 1924.
Historian vs Real Samurai
To the poster in #7. Some historian in Los Angeles saw this in Japan Times website a few years ago....
The real Samurai said that they beleived in Loyalty to the death, honor and duty to one master from the 13th century onward. All of the Edo period publications such as Hagakure and Yamaga Soko's writings seem tame by comparison. Kato came from a commoner's background and 2 of the other lords rose up from a low position. These are valid examples
WHEN RESEARCHERS DREDGED UP THE REMAINS OF THE MONGOL FLEET, THEY FOUND UNEXPLODED BOMBS--SOMETHING CONLAN SAID WERE PHONY OR LATER ADDITIONS TO THE MONGOL INVASION SCROLLS. HECK, EVEN I WOULD NEVER MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE SCROLLS.......
http://www.archaeology.org/0301/etc/kamikaze.html
Volume 56 Number 1, January/February 2003 RELICS OF THE KAMIKAZE Excavations off Japan's coast are uncovering Kublai Khan's ill-fated invasion fleet. BY JAMES P. DELGADO
"In his recent book In Little Need of Divine Intervention, which analyzes two Japanese scrolls that depict the Mongol invasion, Bowdoin College historian Thomas Conlan suggests that a scene showing a samurai falling from his horse as a bomb explodes over him was a later addition. Conlan's research masterfully refutes many of the traditional myths and commonly held perceptions of the invasion, downplaying the number of ships and troops involved and arguing that it was not the storms but the Japanese defenders ashore, as well as confusion and a lack of coordination, that thwarted the khan's two invasions. But his suggestion that the exploding bomb is an anachronism has now been demolished by solid archaeological evidence. Moreover, when the Japanese x-rayed two intact bombs, they found that one was filled just with gunpowder while the other was packed with gunpowder and more than a dozen square pieces of iron shrapnel intended to cut down the enemy. "
http://www.collegenews.org/x2957.xml
The Truth about Samurai: It’s Unlikely Tom Cruise’s Film Will Get it Right, Says Bowdoin Professor
CONLAN:
In a time of peace, with a stable government, and no more land rights, the Samurai needed to justify their existence. They began promoting that "the way of the Samurai was death," and exaggerating their sense of honor and loyalty. They also encouraged the idea that suicide was an ideal of the warrior, but even in the 17th century, suicides were often pragmatically motivated: If a warrior was executed, his material possessions were not passed on to his heirs. If he killed himself prior to execution, however, his possessions went to his heirs, so some made that choice to protect inheritance rights.
THE REALITY:
One should put forth great effort in matters of learning. One should read books concerning military matters, and direct his attention exclusively to the virtues of loyalty and filial piety
The practice of Noh Drama is absolutely forbidden. When one unsheathes his sword, he has cutting a person down on his mind. Thus, as all things are born from being placed in one’s heart, a samurai who practices dancing, which is outside of the martial arts, should be ordered to commit seppuku. -KATO KIYOMASA
THE REALITY:
No matter whether a person belongs to the upper or lower ranks, if he has not put his life on the line at least once he has cause for shame. "Bushido is in being crazy to die. Fifty or more could not kill one such a man." --Nabeshima Naoshige (1538-1618 A.D.)
THE REALITY
"It is forbidden to forget the great debt of kindness one owes to his master and ancestors and thereby make light of the virtues of loyalty and filial piety."
"It is forbidden that one should, acting disrespective of the Way of Heaven, attach little importance to his duties to his master and be overly attentive to his own business"
First of all, a samurai who dislikes battle and has not put his heart in the right place even though he has been born in the house of the warrior, should not be reckoned among one's retainers.
"There is a primary need to distinguish loyalty from disloyalty and to establish rewards and punishments.
---Imagawa Sadayo (1325-1420 A.D.) IMAGAWA'S WRITINGS WERE WIDELY QUOTED BY OTHERS WHILE HE WAS STILL ALIVE. TOKUGAWA sought out the writings and used them as the basis for feudal law. Imagawa's writings were required study for traditional Japanese until World War II
THE REALITY
In the fief of the Asakura, one should not determine hereditary chief retainers. A man should be assigned according to his ability and loyalty--Asakura Toshikage (1428-1481 A.D.)
THE REALITY
When one is serving officially or in the master's court, he should not think of a hundred or a thousand people, but should consider only the importance of the master. Nor should he draw the line at his own life or anything else he considers valuable. Even if the master is being phlegmatic and one goes unrecognized, he should know that he will surely have the divine protection of the gods and Buddhas. While in the midst of duties, one should keep this principle in mind concerning service at the master's court, too To think of receiving the blessings of the master without fulfilling the duties of court service is no different from trying to cross rough sea without a boat.---Hojo Shigetoki (1198-1261 A.D.)
THE REALITY
There are men who believe that when one is serving the lord, he first receives the lord's favor and only then makes endeavors in loyalty and his duties. They have understood the matter in reverse. Being able to live in this world is from the beginning by the grace of one's lord. It is a sad thing for men to forget this and, while setting their ambitions yet higher, envy their masters and the world at large.---Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410 A.D.)
THE REALITY:
They must be determined to stand with Lord Ieyasu's clan in both its ascent and decline, in times of peace and in times of war; and either waking or sleeping they must never forget that they will serve his clan, and his clan alone. To be avaricious for land or to forget old debts because of some passing dissatisfaction, or to even temporarily entertain treacherous thoughts is not the Way of Man.
Even if all the other provinces of Japan were to unite against our lord, our descendants should not set foot inside another fief to the end of time. Simply, in no matter what circumstances, unify with the heart of one family - of elder and younger brothers - exert yourselves in the cause of loyalty, mutually help and be helped by one another, preserve your righteousness and strive in bravery, and be of a mind never to stain the reputation of a clan that has not remained hidden from the world, but has gained fame in military valor for generations, especially since the days of the Governor of Iga. --TORII MOTOTADA INSTRUCTING HIS HEIRS ON THE EVE OF HIS CASTLE'S DESTRUCTION, 1600 AD
THE REALITY
Everyone knows that if a man doesn't hold filial piety toward his own parents he would also neglect his duties toward his lord. Such a neglect means a disloyalty toward humanity. Therefore such a man doesn't deserve to be called 'samurai'.
Learning is to a man as the leaves and branches are to a tree, and it can be said that he should simply not be without it. Learning is not only reading books, however, but is rather something that we study to integrate with our own way of life.
One who was born in the house of a warrior, regardless of his rank or class, first acquaints himself with a man of military feats and achievements in loyalty ---Takeda Shingen (1521-1573 A.D.)
THE REALITY
In matters both great and small, one should not turn his back on his master's commands. In the Lun Yu it says, "Water will conform to the shape of the vessel that contains it, whether it be round or square."
One should not ask for gifts or enfiefments from the master. In the Tso Chuan it says, "Reward without merit is unjust gain, and is an invitation to disaster.
No matter how unreasonably the master may treat a man, he should not feel disgruntled. In the Hsiao Ching it says, "Although one may think that the master is unfitting for his position, a retainer must do the work of a retainer." It is also said that, "The man who hunts a deer does not gaze at the mountains." It is further said that, "An underling does not pass judgments on a superior."
-Takeda Nobushige (1525-1561 A.D.)
THE REALITY (This quote is from the Portuguese leader os the Jesuits in Japan from 1549-1551, St. Francis Xavier;)
St. Francis Xavier (1506-1552) Jesuit leader in Japan (1549-1551)
“The Japanese are much braver and more warlike than the people of China, Korea, Ternate and all of the other nations around the Philippines.”
“There is no nation in the world which fears death less”
“I fancy that there are no people in the world more punctilious about their honour than the Japanese, for they will not put up with a single insult or even a word spoken in anger.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 05:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
CONLAN:
"When you have peace, you can say, the way of the warrior is death. But that's a luxury that you can only say in a time of peace. In a time of war, you can't say that," Conlan said. "I just think their 14th-century compatriots were far more sensible."
THE REALITY:
Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and the short swords and to die.
If a man does not investigate into the matter of Bushido daily, it will be difficult for him to die a brave and manly death. Thus it is essential to engrave This business of the warrior into one's mind well.
The above conditions should be adhered to night and day. if there is anyone who finds these conditions difficult to fulfill, he should be dismissed, an investigation should be quickly carried out, it should be signed and sealed that he was unable to mature in the Way of Manhood, and he should be driven out. To this, there is no doubt."
TO ALL SAMURAI
Kato Kazuenokami Kiyomasa (1562-1611) KATO WROTE A HANDBOOK FOR SAMURAI, WAS WELL KNOWN DURING HIS LIFETIME AND LEAD HUGE ARMIES IN KOREA.
THE REALITY (example 2)
First, a man whose profession is the use of arms should think and then act upon not only his own fame, but also that of his descendants. He should not scandalize his name forever by holding his one and only life too dear. On the other hand, in the light of this, to consider this life that is given to us only once as nothing more than dust and ashes, and lose it at a time when one should not, would be to gain a reputation that is not worth mentioning. One's main purpose in throwing away his life is to do so either for the sake of the Emperor or in some great undertaking of a military general. It is that exactly that will be the great fame of one's descendants.
A warrior generally should not be unmindful and lax, but rather should think everything over ahead of time. Watanabe no Tsuna instructed Urabe no Suetakel that his everyday mind should be like that of a coward, which meant that one should be prepared beforehand for the final great event.
---Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410 A.D.)
THE REALITY: (EXAMPLE 3)
That I should be able to go ahead of all the other warriors of this country and lay down my life for the sake of my master's benevolence is an honor to my family and has been my most fervent desire for many years. --TORII MOTOTADA, 1600AD
THE REALITY (EXAMPLE 4)
There were to Lord Eirin's character many high points difficult to measure, but according to the elders the foremost of these was the way he governed the province by his civility. It goes without saying that he acted this way toward those in the samurai class, but he was also polite in writing letters to the farmers and townspeople, and even in addressing these letters he was gracious beyond normal practice. In this way, all were willing to sacrifice their lives for him and become his allies. Asakura Norikage (1474-1555 A.D.)
THE REALITY (EXAMPLE 5)
"Fate is in Heaven, the armor is on the breast, success is with the legs. Go to the battlefield firmly confident of victory, and you will come home with no wounds whatever. Engage in combat fully determined to die and you will be alive; wish to survive in the battle and you will surely meet death. When you leave the house determined not to see it again you will come home safely; when you have any thought of returning you will not return. You may not be in the wrong to think that the world is always subject to change, but the warrior must not entertain this way of thinking, for his fate is always determined. " ~ Uesugi Kenshin (1530-1578)
SOURCE: Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki, Zen and Japanese Culture (1959)
THE REALITY (EXAMPLE 6)
One should not exhibit the least bit of cowardice on the battlefield. In the Wu Tzu it says, "He who would save his life shall lose it, and he who would give up his life shall save it." One should make endeavors in Zen meditation. There is a saying of the ancients that goes, "There is no particular secret to Zen. It is simply making a settlement of the matter of life and death." Takeda Nobushige (1525-1561 A.D.)
Huge volumes of these writings exist and await translation.
Oh yeah, let's not forget the bombshell of Chamberlain, whom many historians based their opinions:
Anyone who quotes Chamberlain should carefully read his writings. He sought to discredit Japanese culture and had a bitterness towards it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Basil_Hall_Chamberlain
"I have myself gone through many phases of opinion, but the net result is that they appear to me far inferior to the European race"
--CHAMBERLAIN DISCUSSES HIS OPINIONS OF THE JAPANESE IN LETTERS TO HEARN
Japanese Dictionary definition of Bushido
According to the Japanese dictionary Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten, "Bushidō is defined as a unique philosophy (ronri) that spread through the warrior class from the Muromachi (chusei) period."
Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten is the largest Japanese Dictionary. Someone kept removing this definition from the Bushido page so they could claim it developed in the Tokugawa (Edo) era. That is blatant revisionism. And, by the way, Yamaga Soko DID NOT invent Bushido. His code was called "Shido" and is described by experts as "less radical than Bushido". He studied under members of the Takeda clan primarily Obata Kagenori (1572-1663),(editor of the Koyogunkan) from whose school of martial studies a number of important writers and philosophers emerged, among them Daidoji Yuzan. Obata experienced battle first hand at Sekigahara and the fall of Osaka Castle. Readers will be interested to note that in his text "Japanese Culture", H. Paul Varley attributes the invention of Bushido to Yamaga Soko, which is totally incorrect.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 04:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- If anyone questions the validity of the Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten, just let me know. I will be happy to post other Japanese dictionary definitions here that say the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 04:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Yay, the reply to #9...
Ok, here we go
-There is no "myth" that lords did not have contact with their men. It is a fact that few lords had direct contact with their men. They led them on the battlefield, but do you honestly think they were out there "hanging out" with ashigaru or low ranking samurai? This holds true especially during the Sengoku and early Edo periods (p.s. of course you are right, no one called it the Edo period at the time, but I am not arguing that, so I will not address this further). Armies were much larger than they had been in Heian and Kamakura times, during which battles were small-scale and bushidan and provincial headquarters were the primary methods of mobilization for warriors. In any case, I am not arguing that lords did not know each other or that their codes were not widely known; what I am arguing is that evidence for the bulk of samurai following those codes is severely lacking. Men like Kato and Toyotomi DID come up "through the ranks" and knew that men of the lower tiers NEEDED moral upbringing and education to control them and keep them from committing atrocities (which they were often wont to do on the battlefield). Hence their desire to promulgate such codes. I am not saying that people did not try to follow them, or that these codes are false or bad, but the bulk of samurai did not have the time or the inclination to undertake such education. Mid to upper ranking samurai would certainly have been expected to be disciplined and upright as much as possible, and lower tier warriors would certainly have been subject to military discipline, but the moment the blood started to fly, most "morals" went out the window.
- I have 25 years experience in the study of Japanese history. Not to be impolite, but I am well aware of the above statements, however I do not agree with all of it. Many Daimyo did have direct contact with their men, especially Kato. He was known as a very charismatic figure and Despite his aggressive and brutal nature, people were drawn to him. He was a natural leader. Of course the Christians did not like him, but he was well liked by the people for bringing prosperity to his land and increasing rice yields. He was absolutely single minded in his pursuit of things military. In Korea, the enemy feared him because of his closeness with his men. He could be seen in battle urging his men on to fight and he would lead them into battle.
- The level of need for social control is a matter of speculation. All I am saying is that because of Confucianism and the fact they knew each other, there were a common, universal set of values.
-I know the caps are for emphasis, that doesn't make them any less annoying or juvenile.
- I changed the caps to asterisk
-Indeed, you are correct about the descriptions in the literary works being important, but again we are arguing two different things. The images are important, but especially at the time of their inception, were not especially effective at deterring warriors from atrocious behavior. In fact, if you look at actual accounts of warrior behavior in documentary works like the Kamakura ibun or Heian ibun, you will see that warriors were especially prone to such behavior when the opportunity for reward was present-same goes for Muromachi and Sengoku samurai.
- I am well aware of this. However I have also seen western historians exaggerate or apply western standards of behavior in trying to guess Japanese warriors motivations, which is hilarious. I make no appologies for the killing. Samurai were fighting for survival and the safety of their families as well as reward or compensation. Atrocities did happen and if you were the enemy, anything was fair play.
-About literature back to the 8th century mentioning "bunbu ryodo" or some such ideal, sure, but in China, not in Japan. If you had been clear on that there would have been no problem.
- I am sorry, but this appears in Japanese text and I will be happy to provide examples (I always do) The Japanese have always emphasized this balance and it is well known.
-You keep saying that I am putting words in your mouth. No, I am deducting from your comments the logical outcome. Your argument would have readers believe that these ideals permeated every aspect of warrior society. If you would clarify what you mean, then maybe there would not have been a problem.
- Never ASSUME. This is what gets historians into trouble. Not to sound racist but A Japanese historian trying to guess a person's motivation for his action 400 years ago differs greatly from what a westerner (Who is unfamiliar with the traditions and values of the times) would assume. I never said that all samurai followed these codes from the beginning of time. I stated that there was a common set of values and universal education which is evident in the writings. Many of these warriors made it clear there were "rewards and punishments" for following these precepts.
-You attack me about not citing sources. I have, several in fact. Your sources are fine, but you are only examining house laws, which are a distinctly one sided view. Read the Kamakura ibun and the Heian ibun and other such document collections to see actual documents of lords sending down verdicts and dealing with problems among their warriors. Again, we are having a miscommunication. You seem to believe that what is contained in these house laws is what the reality was. I am not arguing that the lords did not try to inculcate their men with those beliefs, just that is unrealistic to assume that the bulk of warriors were concerned with following them. I am simply saying that it is dangerous and academically unsound to make that assumption based on those accounts alone.
- You cited NO sources in the earlier post. Much of what you are posting now is opinion backed by no text:
just that is unrealistic to assume that the bulk of warriors were concerned with following them. How do you know this?
-There you go, those are some better sources. Gunsho ruiju is great, if you read the ibun I mentioned above, your perspective might change. Here are some other interesting sources in Japanese:
-Kakei Yasuhiko. (1967) Chusei Buke Kakun no Kenkyu. Tokyo: Kazema shobo
-Ozawa Tomio. (2003) Buke Kakun, Ikun Shusei. Tokyo: Pelican
-Furukawa Tetsushi. (2001) Sengoku Bushi no Kokoroe. Tokyo: Pelican
-Hanawa Hokiichi. (1893) “Yoshisadaki,” in Zoku Gunsho ruiju, vols. Tokyo: Kanseikai
-Koten Isan no Kai. (1997) “Koyo gunkan,” in Sengoku Gunki Jiten. Oosaka: Izumi Shoin
there are many more that I can list (and have read), but for some reason I don't think I am going to change your mind.
- Why would you try to change my mind? Most of what I posted is obtained from those very sources or different translations of those same texts.
-Oh, and yes I can read Japanese. I am Ph.D. candidate who is fully fluent in classical Japanese, modern Japanese, and variant Chinese (which is what the Azuma kagami is written in, for example). I have been studying this for quite a while and I highly doubt you can read classical, let alone modern Japanese. Maybe you can compare the kanji, but you clearly cannot interpret them. If you could read classical Japanese your conclusions would not be what they are.
- I was born and raised in Japan. I also lived, studied and work in Europe and America. I read Japanese and I have graduate and post graduate studies in Japanese. I rely on notes of translators on the Classical works, (I defer to experts) however I do have a working knowledge classical Japanese. My ties are close to Japanese historians.
-If you disagree with Hurst and Friday you are pretty much disagreeing with most of Japanese scholarship on the matter as well. Do you think these scholars are not fully fluent in the language? Do you think they haven't spent ten times the amount you have contemplating their conclusions? Even Turnbull, who I dislike, is a good scholar in my opinion who has for the most part done the proper legwork, but like any good businessman he knows what sells. When he wants to he can write good stuff. See "Samurai, a Military History." Great book. But so many others are trite and get published by dint of his reputation, which itself was developed early on when not much critical thinking about the subject had been done. So don't come here and try to fight scholarship that is accepted based on actual evidence. All the scholars I mentioned have combed the sources for relevant information. You also claim that some of those other scholars have other motivations, and you like Turnbull??!! Take a look at how many books the scholars I mentioned published in comparison to Turnbull. If anyone is out for a quick buck, it is him. To really write a good book takes a significant amount of time; Turnbull publishes books at a phenomenal rate! Go check Amazon and compare the number of books for yourself.
- Regarding Turnbull, You sound envious. The number of books he publishes is of no concern as long as they are accurate. Some appeal to beginners and some to intermediate readers. I hardly call Friday's sources in the "bushido" article "combing the sources" he quotes others who are just as flawed as him. Hurst and You for that matter as well as Friday failed to realize the true source of the Hagakure as that of Naoshige. Only William Scott Wilson, the person who translated Hagakure mentions almost in passing how much Yamamoto was influenced by Naoshige (A true Sengoku Daimyo). Yamamoto often quoted Naoshige directly in the Hagakure and either paraphrased or added on his own comments. Which means that Hagakure is very relevant for study because it reflects a philosophy of people who have seen war.
- By the way, I can write a definition of Bushido that is so tight that no Samurai qualifies for having been a follower. (It must be in writing, It must have the word "bushido" at the top of the page and in every line of text, every man woman and child from one end of the country must follow it and it must be in the same dialect.) Heck, If we let a westerner define it, no wonder there are debates. The Japanese don't have these debates. Some have been restricted from studying this "taboo" subject because of World War II. Conversely, I can write a definition so broad that ALL of them qualify. So far all I see is some envious westerners try to discredit it when there is clear evidence of a common educational and moral code.
HISTORIAN VS REAL SAMURAI PART II
I'm not going to waste time on this. Karl Friday fares just as badly against the real samurai.
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_friday_0301.htm
- are you going to tell me this is correct?
(You wont be happy until I ruin some careers)
Karl Friday:
Hanging the label of "bushidó" on either the ideology of the Imperial Army or the warrior ethic of medieval Japan involves some fairly overt historian’s sleight-of-hand. In the first place, the term was not used to designate a code of warrior behavior until the early modern era and was only rarely used in this context prior to the late nineteenth century.
Kato Kiyomasa:
If a man does not investigate into the matter of Bushido daily, it will be difficult for him to die a brave and manly death. Thus it is essential to engrave This business of the warrior into one's mind well.
Karl Friday:
One of the basic tenets that modern writers associate with bushidó is that a true samurai was not only willing to risk his life when called upon to do so, but actually looked forward to the opportunity to sacrifice himself in the line of duty. As Swinson puts it, "the essence of bushido was that the young warrior should aim at dying…. In any event, death for the samurai was not something to be avoided; it was ‘a consummation devoutly to be wished’; it was the realization of a great and wonderful ideal." [EN6] This is the fundamental sentiment to be found in Yamamoto Tsunemoto’s famous Hagakure (compiled sometime in the early eighteenth century), and was the inspiration for Mishima Yukio’s eloquent post-war commentary on the text. [EN7] The Hagakure was immensely popular among the officers of the Imperial Army and its often-quoted opening line, "I have found that the way of the warrior is to die," was unquestionably used to inspire kamikaze pilots and the like.
But, however central the willingness to die might have been to twentieth century notions of bushidó, it takes a considerable leap of faith to connect this sort of philosophy with the actual behavior of the medieval samurai.
(Notice How Friday quotes the Hagakure without realizing this quote came from Naoshige. He didn't even do any original research on its origins. He made the same mistake as Hurst. Only William Scott Wilson correctly attributed the source to the Sengoku Lord Naoshige)
Kato Kiyomasa
Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and the short swords and to die.
Nabeshima Naoshige (1538-1618 A.D.)
No matter whether a person belongs to the upper or lower ranks, if he has not put his life on the line at least once he has cause for shame. "Bushido is in being crazy to die. Fifty or more could not kill one such a man."
TORII MOTOTADA,
It is not the Way of the Warrior to be shamed and avoid death even under circumstances that are not particularly important. It goes without saying that to sacrifice one's life for the sake of his master is an unchanging principle.
That I should be able to go ahead of all the other warriors of this country and lay down my life for the sake of my master's benevolence is an honor to my family and has been my most fervent desire for many years
(--- 300 other men died with him, his entire 1800 man garrison was wiped out. Torii vowed that he would not be taken alive and that the castle would be defended to the last man. The battle changed the course of Japanese history. It is said that Tokugawa and Torii both cried when they parted ways because they knew they would never see each other again It should be noted that Torii was relatively old by Sengoku era standards and he says that his values are already very old, so this is proof that he is upholding a very old tradition. His father and grandfather served the Tokugawa before him and his oiwn brother had already been killed in battle:)
Our ancestors have been personal vassals of the Matsudaira for generations. My late father, the governor of Iga, served Lord Kiyoyasu, and later worked loyally for his son, Hirotada. My older brother, Genshichiro, manifested his absolute loyalty and was cut down in battle at Watari.
Imagawa Sadayo (1325-1420 A.D.)
First of all, a samurai who dislikes battle and has not put his heart in the right place even though he has been born in the house of the warrior, should not be reckoned among one's retainers.
Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410 A.D.)
It is a matter of regret to let the moment when one should die pass by. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 05:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
First, a man whose profession is the use of arms should think and then act upon not only his own fame, but also that of his descendants. He should not scandalize his name forever by holding his one and only life too dear. On the other hand, in the light of this, to consider this life that is given to us only once as nothing more than dust and ashes, and lose it at a time when one should not, would be to gain a reputation that is not worth mentioning. One's main purpose in throwing away his life is to do so either for the sake of the Emperor or in some great undertaking of a military general. It is that exactly that will be the great fame of one's descendants.
A warrior generally should not be unmindful and lax, but rather should think everything over ahead of time. Watanabe no Tsuna instructed Urabe no Suetakel that his everyday mind should be like that of a coward, which meant that one should be prepared beforehand for the final great event.
-Ultimately I am criticizing the logical outcome of your arguments and evidence. If you do not change your mind, then in light of the evidence presented by both of us I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Your sources are great, and worthwhile, but readers need to be aware that many of them were written at different times and under different circumstances (Take Hojo Shigetoki's Rokuhara dono gokakun vs. Imagawa's Imagawa-jo), thus making generalization is precarious at best. For Shigetoki, for example, he was one of the upper crust (he was the Rokuhara Tandai, or deputy, and as rensho, or cosigner, of the shogunate's council of state) in the early Kamakura period, and was writing for his son for the purpose of helping him navigate the world of the courtier and upper-class warrior, in which etiquette and proper behavior were absolutely necessary. He was not writing for all warriors in his clan; conversely, Kato Kiyomasa did indeed intend his words to be heard throughout his land, but we cannot assume that all warriors followed his injunctions. He would not have taken a direct hand in their behavior; he couldn't, since the demands on his time would have precluded such behavior, especially since he commanded all those men in the Korean invasions.
- Regarding Shigetoki, One letter was to his son, but the bulk of his text was for his entire clan:
William Scott Wilson: "Hojo wrote this to his son, Nagatoki, but the whole was for all the members of Hojo's clan."
- The reason I printed them is *because* (you hate caps) they *are* different and and they are from social classes different from Kato. I am demonstrating that one moral code sometimes called Bushido or the Way of the Warrior spanned geography, clans, all social classes of Samurai, and It was consistent over several centuries. Shigetoki stressed loyalty, especially to one's master and kindness to the people. Several other warriors over the next centuries did too. The writings reflect the influence of Confucianism, Buddhism and Shinto and they even mention the texts by name. (Samurai Term papers with footnotes) I have actually seen people claim "the origins of Bushido are obscure", when in reality there are often footnotes.
-In any case, I have made my argument. I don't want to disparage you anymore, as it is clear that we have differing viewpoints. All I want is for readers not to be misled by the multitudes of fluff out there that would have us believe that warriors were all striving to be honorable and were enamored of literary images; maybe they were, but the truth is that they failed more often than they succeeded in enacting that behavior. This argument threatens to get bogged down in the details of chronology and class and demands much more time than I am willing to give it. In the end I am willing to concede that from the Sengoku period on warriors were more likely to behave in ways conforming to ideals, but for the first six to seven hundred years of samurai history this is simply not the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.109.121 (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- We all know that the early years of Japan were a bunch of savages killing each other. Ancient Chinese texts describe a very violent land of constantly warring tribes. However, my assertion that the ideal of the balanced warrior and a universal set of beliefs did exist from Japan's earliest literature. It did transcend social class and several centuries. Keep in mind that if the Samurai didn't follow the rules they would be beheaded or worse, so there was SOME motivation to follow the rules:
Kato Kiyomasa:
The above conditions should be adhered to night and day. if there is anyone who finds these conditions difficult to fulfill, he should be dismissed, an investigation should be quickly carried out, it should be signed and sealed that he was unable to mature in the Way of Manhood, and he should be driven out. To this, there is no doubt."
Kuroda Nagamasa:
Both lord and vassals should observe these principles well, manage things in a way that there will be no mistakes, and not act contrary to my precepts.
Again, there may be some among my descendants who act unjustly and selfishly, do not listen to admonitions, act freely without observing these precepts, and recklessly make expenditures. If this should occur, the clan elders should confer together and remove that man, choosing another with good character from my descendants to be lord. Thus will our house continue.
It is essential that the clan elders understand the purport of these things well, and pass them on to each and every one of my descendants.
It is vital that these articles be strictly and permanently observed.
- I will dissect Hurst Next.
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_hurst_0501.htm
**Here is Hurst mocking Yamamoto and the Hagakure: (Notice how he doesn't even realize that the quote of Yamamoto that he is making fun of was really Nabeshima Naoshige, grandfather Yamamoto's lord, a man who had slain hundreds of warriors in battle)
The few Tokugawa works which explicitly use the term bushidó turn out, in fact, to be a very narrow stream of thought essentially out of touch with the broader spectrum of Confucian ideas to which most of the samurai class adhered. There was no well-articulated series of six or seven values; the primary emphasis in the Hagakure, Budó shoshinshú, and similar writings is an excessive attachment to the ideals of the late sixteenth century, focusing especially on loyalty, duty, and courage. [EN22] They also idealize a reckless death offered up in the lord’s name: as Tsunetomo put it "The way of the samurai is found in death," or, even more bluntly, "simply become insane and die as though mad (shinigurui)." [EN23]
In a bizarre tirade, Hurst spends a long, long time trying to discredit the Hagakure. Notice how he applies western values when he is trying to speculate on Yamamoto's motives: (Japanese do not think like that at all. If he did choose suicide, it would be out of respect and tradition.)
There were simply no longer any arenas where would-be zealots like Tsunetomo, a weekend warrior who never engaged in combat, could demonstrate either his military prowess, his loyalty, or his courage. Furukawa expresses great admiration for Tsunetomo’s words: "The intensity and profundity of passion that strike us as we read these expressions in the original Japanese are past all translation and leave us in sheer wonder and admiration. What a single-hearted loyalty." [EN31] Personally, I read Tsunetomo somewhat more cynically. I am suspicious both of the degree of Tsunetomo’s disappointment at being denied the right of tsuifuku and of his many passionate expressions of loyalty. I believe that Tsunetomo was truly attached to Motoshige and was devastated by his death; but I suspect that in his remorse he was whipped into a high degree of emotion, which young Tashiro recorded, by the realization that he was unable to be the kind of "real" samurai of the sengoku era whom he admired so much. But if he could not live like one, perhaps through a noble seppuku he could have died like one. Tsunetomo was a GS-12 who longed to be something more.
I found these glaring errors in just a few minutes. I am sleepy. I will finish tommorrow. They will never get invited onto the history channel for accuracy. If you insist, we will continue the carnage......bring some more historians to the slaughter.
In the end...
Ok, first of all, I will apologize for letting this degenerate into an argument of qualifications and name calling. I also understand what you are trying to say and that we are arguing along the two most common fault lines concerning samurai history. None of us can really know what it was like except by interpreting information. We have both cited sources and made arguments, so I will let readers decide by content. Here are a few points I wold like to contend, however:
- We do know what it was like because the information is passed down in texts in the individual families. As more of these texts and family records get translated, people will get a better view in the west. Tens of thousands of documents exist and the experts say most of them will never be translated
-I don't think we are applying "western" values (whatever that means) when we guess at their motivations. When you look at land and documents and other original sources, it is clear that until the collapse of the shoen system and the onset of the Sengoku period that their primary motivations was aggrandizement of power, particularly land. This and court sinecures was their primary motivation behind going to war. In the Sengoku period conditions had changed, and the average samurai was not fighting for land rewards or court titles any longer. In any case, we are applying human values to them. They would not have risked their lives for nothing, and it is undisputed fact that no ubiquitous code of "bushido" directed warrior behavior the later stages of warrior history. And no, I don't think that the only motivations for Yamamoto to want to commit suicide would have been for respect or tradition. Hurst's reading is much more explainable and accurate than simply for respect and tradition, regardless of "how Japanese think." Even here we are at odds, because the mindset of an individual can only be guessed or assumed, not truly known. Hurst's interpretation stands up against criticism when analyzed in the context of Yamamoto's life and time. While I will not claim that you are 100 percent wrong, I do not think that Hurst is entirely wrong for that matter.
- Being raised in a society with strict social rules on behavior such as a house of a warrior is hard for a modern person to comprehend. People were taught that the importance of the many comes before the individual. People lived in a rigid environment where they were taught to ignore personal desires and emotional feelings. I can appreciate that Yamamoto only wanted to honor his ancestors by his actions. These books and articles needlessly speculate.
-please provide an example of a text "from" Japan that mentions bunbu ryodo in the 8 or 9th century. If it indeed exists I would love to see it. I am not talking about "Chinese" texts imported to Japan, either. Please provide an example of a Japanese work.
- The term "bunbu" was common in Japanese literature and the term "Bushi" itself is a combination of the two characters signifying a person of balance who brandished both weapons and books:
Bu consists of bun (文): literature or letters, and generally the arts of peace) stopping the spear. Bu prohibits violence and subdues weapons ... it puts the people at peace, and harmonizes the masses. the shi, as the highest of the four classes, brandished the weapons as well as the books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 07:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
-It is fine to assume. That is all scholarship is. We look at evidence, and based on that assume certain things. You are right that a common set of values may be present, but there is certainly no proof of a universal education. As a class that was self aware, certainly they were held to certain standards. But a common education? In any case, scholars read the evidence and make their own conclusions, but it is silly to think that scholars who have put in decades reading these texts are going to misread the clues. Sure, we have diferent cultural backgrounds, but that does not guarantee that they will color our perceptions of an issue with which we are perfectly familiar.
- Of course there was universal education: Buddhist texts, The Chinese classics and military classics. You did claim to be an expert in Japanese History didn't you? What did you think these people were reading?
- Conlan assumed, and Hurst assumed and Friday assumed and they sure do look intelligent now, don't they? All I saw was a bunch of hit pieces on the Hagakure where Hurst and Friday had no idea "The way of the warrior is found in death" or "being crazy to die" are Naoshige's words.
- Many of the texts mention their sources. I mean it *really* says to read the Analects, in others it is apparent and needs no explanation:
Hojo Shigetoki:
One should worship the gods and Buddhas morning and night, and maintain a heart of faith. The gods grant power to a man according to his respect for them, and he maintains his fate according to their blessings. Thus, when coming before the gods and Buddhas, for better ability in this world one should ask to be granted an upright heart. In this way he will be esteemed in this world and born in the Western Paradise in the next, and this is a fine thing. One should understand this principle well.
(Description of Text: The predominant tone of the work is a Buddhist sympathy for all living beings and an awareness of the functions of karma. Women, children, and those of lower social standing are to be treated kindly and with regard, and even the concept of loyalty to superiors is dealt with more in a religious sense than a Confucian one.)
Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410 A.D.)
That the gods and Buddhas should be revered is likely known by anyone who is a man, and does not warrant being mentioned anew. But in this connection there is a small matter that should be understood.
The Buddha appeared and the gods manifested themselves in this world entirely for its sake and for the sake of those living in it. Thus, it was not to injure man, but to make his heart pure, to make correct his sense of humanity, justice, propriety, wisdom and faithfulness, and to make clear the foundation of his life. Yet, was there something further expressed in their appearances?
(Description of the text: Its tone is a combination of a manly Confucian approach reflecting honesty and fairness, and a Buddhist sympathy for others. One is admonished to use his head well and be disciplined, for a man is old before he knows it; and unless he enters into things, his accomplishments will be few. Very striking is Shiba's emphasis on the arts and their effect on the reputation of the individual and of the clan. He considered these social graces as well, and in this document we can see how close the upper echelons of the warrior class moved toward the ideals of the nobility without moving away from their own.)
Asakura Toshikage (1428-1481 A.D.) (Asakura quotes the Analects directly)
Even if one has learned all the sayings of the sages and saints, he should not insist on them obstinately. In the Analects of Confucius it is said, "If a gentleman is not solemn, he will have no dignity." But it would be a mistake to understand this as meaning that one should be solemn all the time. It is necessary to be solemn or light-hearted according to the occasion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 07:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Imagawa Sadayo (Ryoshun took Buddhist Vows after defeating Hosokawa in 1361AD)
"It is natural that training in the martial arts is the Way of the warrior, but it is important to put them into actual practice. First, it is written in the Four Books and Five Classics as well as in the military writings that in protecting the country, if one is ignorant in the study of literature, he will be unable to govern.
Just as Buddha preached the various laws in order to save all living beings, one must rack one's brains and never depart from the Ways of both Warrior and Literary Man.
(description of text: Written in kanbun, it sets down the classic view that a warrior must be a man of both military skill and of letters—that lacking one, he will lack both. As a Buddhist, Ryoshun proscribed the wanton taking of life, but as a member of the warrior class, he held great respect for his profession. As a Confucian, he cited the Chinese Classics and demanded respect for one's family, as well as stressing the concept of loyalty and duty to one's master. In him we see the ideal of the warrior at its most balanced stage)
Hojo Nagauji (1432-1519 A.D.)
Above all, believe in the gods and Buddhas.
To worship the gods and Buddhas is the correct conduct for a man. It can be said that one will be in conformity with the feelings of the gods and Buddhas if he will simply make his heart straight-forward and calm, respect honestly and wholeheartedly those above him and have pity on those below, consider that which exists to exist and that which does not exist to not exist, and recognize things just as they are. With such a frame of mind, one will have divine protection even though he does not pray. But if his mind is not straight, he had best be prudent lest it be said that he has been abandoned by Heaven, prayerful or not. To be a samurai is to be polite at all times.
One should not tell a lie, no matter to whom he is speaking or how little is said. Even the most trivial matters should be shown as they are. If one tells a lie, it will become a habit, and in the end he will be forsaken by others. One should understand that to be questioned by others can bring on shame for a lifetime.
A person who has not studied poetry is the poorer for this lack, and thus one should study it. One should always be genteel in his speaking. A man shows his inmost self by a single word.
(Description: The articles are basically rules for the daily life of the common warrior, and show his familiarity and sympathy for those in the lower echelons. )
Takeda Nobushige (1525-1561 A.D.) (every sentence has a reference at the end of it,usually a Chinese classic)
(random excerpts)
One should not utter a word about his own inadequacies. In the Oko it says, "When a man lets out a single word, the long and short of him will be known."
One should not use rough manners with anyone. With priests, women, children, the poor, and the elderly, one should be all the more polite. It is said in the Li Chi that, "One is safe when polite, but in danger when ill-mannered."
It is essential to develop one's self in the martial arts. In the Lun Yu it says, "To study the heretical will only be damaging."
One must not be negligent in Learning. In the Lun Yu it says, "To study and not to think is darkness. To think without study is dangerous."
(Description: Written in kanbun, they are a tour de force of the educated warrior, each precept followed by a relevant quote, usually from a Chinese classic. There is no particular order, and the subject matter ranges from injunctions against carrying a dull sword to encouraging belief in the gods and Buddhas)
Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623 A.D.) (he Doesn't mention Confucious by name but the general tenor of the writing is that the Arts of peace (Confucian literature) balance the arts of war)
If a general who is to maintain the province does not have a special consciousness, his task will be a difficult one to attain. His attitudes must not be the same as the ordinary man's. Firstly, he must be correct in manners and etiquette, must not let self-interest into government, and must take care of the common people. Moreover, he must be prudent in selecting the things that he has interest in; for what the master prefers, all the other warriors will also, and even the farmers and townspeople will take pleasure in them. If he does some trifling thing for pleasure, he should do it in such a manner that it will not cause attention; and he should not forget even for a moment that he is the model for the four classes of people.
Generally speaking, the master of a province should discharge his duties with love and humanity, should not listen to slander, and should exercise the good. His governing should be as clear as the bright sun in the bright sky, and he should think things over deeply in his mind and make no mistakes. The arts of peace and the arts of war are like the two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing.
(Description: Kuroda extols the balance of the arts of peace (Confucian learning and literature) with the arts of war, and encourages fairness and sympathy toward the other three classes of people.)
**Look at Wilson's description of Takeda Shingen:
"Yet he was a strict disciplinarian as a warrior, and there is an exemplary story in the Hagakure relating his execution of two brawlers, not because they had fought, but because they had not fought to the death. It is not surprising to learn that he was an avid reader of Sun Tzu and Han Fei Tzu."
Sir Francis Xavier Letter 29 January 1552
"There are two kinds of writing in Japan, one used by men and the other by women; and for the most part both men and women, especially of the nobility and the commercial class, have a literary education. The bonzes, or bonzesses, in their monasteries teach letters to the girls and boys, though rich and noble persons entrust the education of their children to private tutors.” 29 January 1552
(I have several anecdotes just like this one regarding feudal, pre Tokugawa era education. Not only were the warriors educated, the commoners were as well. There is mention of the writing of letters among the common classes and the official documents of the era such as marriage and birth records support this.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 06:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- So, In conclusion it is pretty clear that they had a universal education.
-You are right, in my first post I did not cite sources, but provided the names of Western scholars known for their work. By the way, you are extrapolating from the "westerner" vs. "easterner" issue that Hurst, Friday, and many others are mistaken in their interpretation. Shades of "orientalism," anyone?
- I truely believe that anyone who tries to assume a person's motivation for his actions hundreds of years ago and in a eastern country is just a disaster. You can hide behind that race card all you want, but I don't pretend to know what an African is thinking when he does something.
-About Turnbull, of course I am a little envious. I wish I could write dozens of books and have them published with little concern for quality control. Unfortunately that is not the case. The Hagakure issue is complicated, and you are of course correct in its origins...but that does not change the essential fact that Hurst's argument is sound, particularly when analyzed in the context of Yamamoto's time and situation. Show me a counterargument to this and I will not dispute it further.
- Yamamoto was a traditional and respectful man who documented the stories and anecdotes of those before him. The Shogunate had to ban suicide in the aftermath of one's lords death by decree. Hurst assumes for too much and he fed off of Chamberlain which is a mistake. Then Friday quotes Hurst. It's like the blind leading the blind. When someone is sincere and writes a letter saying "here is my reason for doing it" I place more weight on the letter rather than what some American says hundreds of years later. The 47 ronin left behind letters stating their intentions for attacking Kira and for their willingness to die. I accept their explanations. I dont try to make up a false pretense. You can read it in black and white. Chikara Oishi (son of the head retainer) was told it was a one way trip and they would certainly die. Yet I actually see people debate the fact that the men tried to clear their name and that they would be pardoned, etc. Chikara clearly says he was told there would be no pardon and that even if cleared of the charges "there would be one hundred thousand other charges we would be found guilty of."
-I will not argue Bushido anymore. The definition of bushido is mercurial at best. But have you found a reference to it in a pre-Sengoku work?
- No. I recall mainly examples from early Sengoku onwards. I was not really looking for that. I mainly was studying social values and writings of the Samurai, but since someone mentioned it, I do remember seeing "the way of the warrior"
I would love to see it. It only becomes common later in the Edo period.
- Only one occurrence is enough for me. It is mainly a term of the Sengoku era.
- By the time of the Edo period, Bushido was getting tamer, if anything--contrary to what western historians write. Compare Kato and Imagawa's writings to Edo period works they sound boring. This is what confuses me. Why would Conlan, Friday and Hurst say that Edo period warriors made up the emphasis on the way of the warrior being death? When you read Kato and Imagawa they were very adamant, Kato even sounds menacing.
You may find a reference, but in isolated cases. In any case I would love to see it.
- Why are the bushido denial people so hinged on how many occurrences there are? Is your evidence so weak you have to resort to counting occurences. When Hojo tells his followers in the 13th century that "the only important thing is the importance of the master" and says one should be honest and polite and then many other lords in different social classes and parts of Japan say the same thing over several hundreds of years after the 13th century that pretty much says it.
-How have you ruined careers? You have not provided any counterarguments formulated by scholars, just the house laws themselves, which are limited sources of information. I understand you keep using the house laws as sources. Great, they prove that people did consider behavior/ethics/morals as a necessary aspect of samurai life. And indeed, Kato was an asskicker. I love reading about him, but he was the exception.
- The thing about Kato was that he was visible, he co-lead the entire country's forces in Korea. Everyone and I do mean everyone knew who he was. He would arrive at *the front* of his columns of men. this scared the Koreans and Chinese who could see him from afar. He struck a imposing figure riding along the lines dressed in white robes and urging his men to fight harder. Plus he had this reputation of fighting and killing tigers armed only with a spear or a sword. Even if he was the exception, everyone knew and aspired to be like that.
Takeda Shingen was never fighting alongside his troops (well, early on maybe, but later? I think not), and there were few who did. A general in the Sengoku period was too important to risk on the battlefield, and they knew this. Kato is like a Japanese Richard the 3rd. An incredible tactician, skilled warrior, and effective administrator, but I think that using him as the baseline is unhelpful. Same goes with Imagawa and Shiba Yoshimasa. Two very highly placed men who were skilled and learned in the warrior way, but were certainly not fighting on the battlefield and were not in touch with the average warrior. Imagawa was a noted poet and spent his time among the upper crust, debating poetic theory.
- Quite the opposite. Imagawa is held as an example of the ultimate in Balance. He conquered the land AND he was a great administrator. They sent him in to trouble spots like Kyushu after the Bakufu lost control of it in 1370. He had already retired as a priest in the 1360's and they had to call him out to take back the land that had slipped from Bakufu control. It took him ten years during which he became very powerful and this scared the Shogunate so he was recalled to a lesser post for the rest of his life.
-I agree with you in that there was a universal baseline understanding of behavior for samurai; they were a self-aware class and by not acting in such a manner they, regardless of periodization, there would have been repercussions, such as beheading (as you mentioned). But there were no samurai-schools. Samurai would have learned behavior by watching their parents and their family's associates; few of these in the lower tiers would have been literate until much later. So while I agree that a common set of values would have been present, they would not have been transmitted uniformly through "education" of any official sort.
- When we read a history book, it Takes one sentence to say the Sengoku era was a violent and turbulent era of war. It takes us a few seconds for us to read the sentence. However, it wasn't one big battle for hundreds of years. There were years and decades between wars and not all clans fought all of the time. There was plenty of time for learning and education. There was literacy in society in general and I have seen written references to the farmers and common classes being literate, even in the 14th century. Education could be found elsewhere such as in temples and schools as well as the home.
- Education was uniform because they read the same books.
-Ultimately you have not found errors with Hurst or Friday. You have indicated areas that you disagree with. Please provide some scholars who dispute what they are writing. And I will not accept Turnbull. I do not want to be confrontational any longer, to be honest. If you can provide counterarguments I would love to see them for my own edification, but as of now you are still using the same information to defend your point of view.
- The entire article is one big error built around a flawed thesis. I think the people will decide. I will be posting copies of this on the History channel forums and Japanese history forums. I am not the only person who has noticed flaws in the articles by Friday and Conlan and Hurst.
-Again, for the record I will apologize for treating you like I did. We are at an impasse, and without changing course we are simply going to continue for eternity. I am more interested now in a mutual exchange of viewpoints and sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.109.121 (talk) 12:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- We are not at an impasse. I just gave you examples where the warriors looked forward to dying in battle, contrary to what Friday stated. He was wrong and the words of the real warriors prove it:
Karl Friday:
But, however central the willingness to die might have been to twentieth century notions of bushidó, it takes a considerable leap of faith to connect this sort of philosophy with the actual behavior of the medieval samurai. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 11:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Samurai Games
Lately there are people on the internet trying to recreate the legends of a samurai throught a role playing game one of these games is called Samurai of Legend here are the several links to the game.
<A HREF="[1]" TARGET="_blank"> <IMG SRC="[2]" WIDTH="728" HEIGHT="90" ALT="Samurai Of Legend RPG!" BORDER="0"></A>
![[2]](http://www.samuraioflegend.com/banner/72890.gif){kind=link}
<A HREF="[3]" TARGET="_blank"> <IMG SRC="[4]" WIDTH="175" HEIGHT="175" ALT="Samurai Of Legend RPG!" BORDER="0"></A>
![[4]](http://www.samuraioflegend.com/banner/175175.jpg){kind=link}
<A HREF="[5]" TARGET="_blank"> <IMG SRC="[6]" WIDTH="468" HEIGHT="60" ALT="Samurai Of Legend RPG!" BORDER="0"></A>
![[6]](http://www.samuraioflegend.com/banner/468x60c.jpg){kind=link}
<A HREF="[7]" TARGET="_blank"> <IMG SRC="[8]" WIDTH="468" HEIGHT="60" ALT="Samurai Of Legend RPG!" BORDER="0"></A>
![[8]](http://www.samuraioflegend.com/banner/samuraioflegend3_mb.gif){kind=link}
<A HREF="[9]" TARGET="_blank"> <IMG SRC="[10]" WIDTH="728" HEIGHT="90" ALT="Samurai Of Legend RPG!" BORDER="0"></A>
![[10]](http://www.samuraioflegend.com/banner/728x90a.jpg){kind=link}
<A HREF="[11]" TARGET="_blank"> <IMG SRC="[12]" WIDTH="728" HEIGHT="90" ALT="Samurai Of Legend RPG!" BORDER="0"></A>
![[12]](http://www.samuraioflegend.com/banner/banner1.gif){kind=link}
The Warrior / Poet Ideal --Balancing the Arts of Peace with the Arts of War
First Occurrence of the Warrior-Poet Ideal In Japanese Literature: (The Pen and the Sword in Accord)
712AD
This description from the Kojiki (712AD) of the idealized warrior was written well before the general introduction of Confucianism:
"Yamato Takeru may be considered the rough ideal of the Japanese warrior to come. He is sincere and loyal, slicing up his father's enemies "like melons," unbending and yet not unfeeling, as can be seen in his laments for lost wives and homeland, and in his willingness to combat the enemy alone."
Wilson states that Yamato Takeru's portrayal in the Kojiki "indicates that the ideal of harmonizing the literary with the martial may have been an early trait of Japanese civilization, appealing to the Japanese long before its introduction from Confucian China."
723AD
The Shoku Nihongi, an early history of Japan completed in 797 A.D. In a section of that book covering the year 723, we read:
Again, the August Personage said, "Literary men and warriors are they whom the nation values."
1371 AD
From The Heike Monogatari is this idealized description of the literate warrior:
Friends and foes alike wet their sleeves with tears and said,
"What a pity! Tadanori was a great general, pre-eminent in the arts of both sword and poetry."'
(Kitagawa and Tsuchida, 1975)
1383 AD
Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410 A.D.)
When a man has ability in the arts, the depth of his heart can be conjectured and the mind of his clan surmised. This world values reputation alone and, as a man will gain fame in the arts, too, he should put his mind to them, regardless of his lack of skill. To the extent that a man studies with some interest, though he may be lacking in talent, if he will put out effort he will not be ashamed in front of others. It is only rarely that a thing is done well, but with persistence one should be able to join others in these pursuits and this should be considered valuable. No matter how noble a family one may be born into or how good-looking he may be, when people are picking up manuscripts, for the recitation of chants, thinking over the rhymes in making poetry, or tuning up their instruments, how deplorable it must be to be among people reciting linked verse and to have to make some excuse for one's inability, or to sit chin in hands while others are playing music together, or to be even unable to join in the beginning of a game of football. It is needless to say that this is also true when one has received a well-written letter from a young friend and, in making a reply has to use the unsatisfactory means of dictating the letter to someone else more able. How much more so embarrassing when one must ask someone to write a letter for him to a young lady, and this fact, which should be kept hidden, becomes known. To not know how to join in even with such pastime games as go, shogi, or sugoroku2 when others are gathered together is awkward indeed. That one should be well practiced in such archery sports as ma to, kasagake, and inu-oumono, goes without saying and should be an understood matter
Particularly the man whose profession is arms should calm his mind and look into the depths of others. Doing so is likely the best of the martial arts.
It is fairly certain that most ordinary men have picked up the Genji Monogatari and Sei Shonagon's Makura Soshi and read through them any number of times. There is nothing like these books for the instruction of man's behavior and the baring of the quality of his heart. Reading them, one will naturally be able to recognize a man with soul.
1412 AD
Imagawa Sadayo (1325-1420 A.D.)
"Without knowledge of Learning, one will ultimately have no military victories."
It is natural that training in the martial arts is the Way of the Warrior, but it is most important to put them into actual practice. First, it is written in the Confucian classics as well as in the military writings that in protecting the country, if one is ignorant of the study of literature he will be unable to govern.
Just as the Buddha preached the various laws in order to save all living beings, one must rack one's brains and never depart from the Ways of both Warrior and Literary Man
In Governing the country, it is dangerous to lack even one of the virtues of humanity, righteousness, etiquette and wisdom
Hojo Nagauji
(1432-1519 A.D.)
It is hardly necessary to record that both Learning and the military arts are the Way of the Warrior, for it is an ancient law that one should have Learning on the left and the martial arts on the right. But this is something that will not be obtainable if one has not prepared for it beforehand.
Takeda Shingen (1521-1573 A.D.)
"Learning is to a man as the leaves and branches are to a tree, and it can be said that he should simply not be without it. Learning is not only reading books, however, but is rather something that we study to integrate with our own way of life. One who was born in the house of a warrior, regardless of his rank or class, first acquaints himself with a man of military feats and achievements in loyalty, and, listening to just one of his dictums each day, will in a month know 30 precepts. Needless to say, if in a year he learns 300 precepts, at the end of that time he will be much for the better. Thus, a man can divide his mind into three parts: he should throw out those thoughts that are evil, take up those ideas that are good, and become intimate with his own wisdom. Doing this, he should have little to shame him.
1558 AD
Takeda Nobushige (1525-1561 A.D.)
It is essential to develop one's self in the martial arts. In the Lun Yu it says, "To study the heretical will only be damaging.
One must not be negligent in Learning. In the Lun Yu it says, "To study and not to think is darkness. To think without study is dangerous."
One should not be lazy in attending to his everyday duties. In the Lun Yu it says, "If one has energy left after endeavoring in virtue, he should study."
Kato Kiyomasa
One should put forth effort in matters of Learning. One should read books concerning military matters, and direct his attention exclusively to the virtues of loyalty and filial piety. Reading Chinese poetry, linked verse, and waka is forbidden. One will surely become womanized if he gives his heart knowledge of such elegant and delicate refinements. Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and short swords and to die.
The practice of Noh dancing is absolutely forbidden.... A samurai who practices dancing—which is outside of the martial arts—should be ordered to commit seppuku
Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623 A.D.)
The arts of peace and the arts of war are like the two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing. Naturally, the arts of peace are used during times of tranquility and those of war during times of confusion, but it is most essential to not forget the military during peaceful times nor to disregard scholastics during times of war. When the master of a province feels that the world is in peace and forgets the arts of war, first, military tactics will fall into disuse, the warriors of his clan will naturally become effeminate and lose interest in martial ways, the martial arts will be neglected, the variety of weapons will be insufficient, weapons handed down through generations will become rusty and rot, and there will be nothing of any use during times of emergency. If the Way of the Warrior is thus neglected, ordinary military tactics will not be established; if a military situation were to suddenly arise there would be panic and confusion, consultation would be unprepared for, and the establishment of strategy would be difficult. When one has been born into the house of a military commander, he should not forget the arts of war even for a moment.
Again, what is called cherishing the Way of the Warrior is not a matter of extolling the martial arts above all things and becoming a scaremonger. It is rather in being well-informed in military strategy, in forever pondering one's resources of pacifying disturbances, in training one's soldiers without remiss, in rewarding those who have done meritorious deeds and punishing those who have committed crimes, in being correct in one's evaluation of bravery and cowardice, and in not forgetting this matter of "the battle" even when the world is at peace. It is simply brashness to make a specialty of the martial arts and to be absorbed in one's individual efforts. Such is certainly not the Way of the Warrior of a provincial lord or military commander.
Particularly, there are samurai who understand the double Way of the scholar and warrior well, and who mean to make a name for themselves in this world. As such men choose their own masters well, they will without a doubt gather here even without being invited. This coming to pass, our clan will naturally excel others, and will clearly prosper both materially and in terms of authority.
1615 AD
The Buke Sho Hatto (Rule for the Military Houses--Published by the Tokugawa shogunate, these were heavily influenced by earlier writings of the Imagawa family)
The study of literature and the practice of the military arts, including archery and horsemanship, must be cultivated diligently. "On the left hand literature, on the right hand use of arms" was the rule of the ancients. Both must be pursued concurrently.
In Chinese Literature (Required study by Japanese warriors)
Once I was a gallant with books and a sword .. .
I studied the arts of peace and studied
the arts of war.
I studied the arts of war and studied the
arts of peace.
-Han-Shan
"When the world is at peace, a gentleman keeps his
sword by his side." —Wu Tsu
If you do not study Poetry, you will not be able to speak. --The Analects (16: 13)
I have heard that when a man has literary business, he will always take military preparations; and when he has military business, he will always take literary preparations.--from the Shih Chi (Confucious)
Han Period Chinese Classic:
Therefore, the gentleman avoids the three extremities. He avoids the extremity of the pen of the literary man; he avoids the extremity of the halberd of the military man; and he avoids the extremity of the tongue of the advocate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 07:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
continuation...
-I disagree, we are assuming what these men say is the absolute truth. We need a more holistic set of examples to make that judgment. Land transfers and loyalty documents are the other pieces of the puzzle that must be considered when making judgments about what a society is like; the scholars we have been talking about have done that. They have pored over hundreds of documents in works like the Kamakura and Heian ibun and made judgments based on both that evidence and the house laws. Am I saying they are always correct? No, of course not. But I do think their opinions are valid and in many cases are spot on. These are people who are absolutely fluent in the language and have spent years living in Japan; they are not ignorant of Japanese behavior or the history. In any case, even now we are extrapolating from a very limited set of house laws a baseline for behaviors. We need more. For example, two other untranslated works I am working on provide excellent examples of Sengoku customs and behavior: the Koyo Gunkan by Kosaka Masanobu, and the Gunpo Jiyoshu by Ogasawara Sakuun. There are lots of data not taken into account, of course, but a holistic understanding of the data points to a less idealistic reading of warrior behavior.
- You won't get a accurate picture of anything by simply living in Japan and speaking the language. Most modern Japanese know as much about feudalism as the average American knows about George Washington and Columbus. My family donated arms and armor to the museums after the war. They also sit on the board of directors of some of the museums. My grandparents lived to be nearly 100 years old and their grandparents were 90 and so forth. We also do have an accurate picture of their values.
You are just making things up and posting them here with no references. Two of my quotes above came from the Koyogunkan. I don't think you have read any of those books you listed above or you would have known this.
Why is Conlan saying:
In a time of peace, with a stable government, and no more land rights, the Samurai needed to justify their existence. They began promoting that "the way of the Samurai was death," and exaggerating their sense of honor and loyalty. They also encouraged the idea that suicide was an ideal of the warrior, but even in the 17th century, suicides were often pragmatically motivated: If a warrior was executed, his material possessions were not passed on to his heirs. If he killed himself prior to execution, however, his possessions went to his heirs, so some made that choice to protect inheritance rights.
or Karl Friday:
But, however central the willingness to die might have been to twentieth century notions of bushidó, it takes a considerable leap of faith to connect this sort of philosophy with the actual behavior of the medieval samurai.
These are complete untruths.
-The Hagakure issue is not that simple. Hurst, whether right or wrong, makes a plausible judgment of Yamamoto's reasons based on a great deal of evidence, not simply speculation. Look at his bibliography! In any case, haven't you ever met someone who said one thing but did another? When we consider how complicated human beings are, it allows for the possibility of judgments not in accord with the simplest reading of a text.
- He went out with a clear purpose to discredit the Hagakure. I am not impressed by the bibliography. He didn't bother to read about the source of the Hagakure. I take some of the comments as humorous, but this is an attack on culture. He purposely or out of ignorance (probably ignorance) does not identify the fact that the famous quote "crazy to die" or "the way of the warrior is death" came from a Sengoku Lord! I am well aware of the conditions of Yamamoto's life. He wrote a sincere document stating his reasons. I accept those reasons. You must be joking if you think there us no speculation, his central theme and the entire paper is speculation and falsehood:
Personally, I read Tsunetomo somewhat more cynically. I am suspicious both of the degree of Tsunetomo’s disappointment at being denied the right of tsuifuku and of his many passionate expressions of loyalty. I believe that Tsunetomo was truly attached to Motoshige and was devastated by his death; but I suspect that in his remorse he was whipped into a high degree of emotion, which young Tashiro recorded, by the realization that he was unable to be the kind of "real" samurai of the sengoku era whom he admired so much. But if he could not live like one, perhaps through a noble seppuku he could have died like one. Tsunetomo was a GS-12 who longed to be something more.
- Look at the words "I read", "I belive that..", "I suspect" , "Perhaps" those are pure speculation. You didn't even read the article you told me to read. Shame.
-Of course there were universal texts that literate warriors read. But what I am saying is that the number of literate warriors in the Heian/Kamakura/Muromachi periods was relatively low. There are excellent examples in the Azuma Kagami and the Heike monogatari about warriors not being able to read. Take, for example, Taifubo Kakumei, Minamoto Yoshinaka's scribe, and the only person among Yoshinaka's retinue capable of reading and writing. In the Azuma Kagami, for another example, there is a great scene where the retired emperor sends down an edict, and none of the warriors can read it, necessitating them to call in a noble familiar with the written script.
- Of course there are examples. I have read the Heike Monogatari many times. This whole exchnage is about you taking one example of something and applying it to the whole of the warrior class which is unsound conclusions. I research broadly.
-Concerning Bushido, frequency of usage is of the utmost importance. If you want to claim that the house laws consistent mentioning of common behaviors points to a common education, you also have to apply that same thesis to frequency of occurrance for other examples. While again, we are in agreeance that certain behavior was what defined the self-aware warrior class, calling it bushido and saying it was standardized is a misjudgment. Furthermore, while literate warriors would have read the classics, some warriors would have had different interpretations of those classics-take Kato's interpretation of how a warrior should act in comparison to Shiba Yoshimasa's or Hojo Shigetoki's. This clearly points to a lack of standardized understanding, and since the term bushido was not common parlance, we cannot say that warriors were held accountable across the board to a specific set of beliefs. Regionally, perhaps; nationwide, no. There was no government organization that was standardizing warrior education, and the most likely explanation for more universal behaviors was behavior learned by family members following social examples, which would have been different bassed on regions/families, just as the house laws show.
- Kato did enjoy literature, but he was against anything that took away from training, so he restricted his men to training. I just put that out there to see if anyone would catch that, but of course, no one did. Bushido was fairly standardized after the 1400's. They did have a common set of social values and morals. I will be posting more on that later this evening. I will give examples with quotes. Frequency of usage is not that important, the values were. I can show a consistent pattern of the same values which transcended social class, geography and hundreds of years.
-I am not anti bushido, by the way. I just require more proof than one mention. In fact, the many instances of betrayal and unsavory behavior in the Muromachi/Sengoku periods strongly suggest that whatever social codes the samurai followed, much of that was able to "contextual interpretation" of the needs of the moment. The examples of such behavior are legion, and the fact that warriors who behaved honorably are so revered suggests that contrary to the "idealist" thesis, warriors who behaved in accordance with idealistic behavior were indeed honored, but that most warriors were more than willing to let their morals slide in times of war or duress.
- If you have truly read those texts which you listed, we would not be having this exchange. You are failing to get the point. The enemy is fair game, in battle, you could be tortured, killed, and executed on the whim of who ever was present. Among the commoners of the domain and the warrior class there were rules. People knowledgeable of Japanese history know this already. Why are you making issues of this?
-Kato was incredible, but again, what warriors "aspired" to be like and how they "actually" acted are often two different things. An examination of other documents (which I have suggested ad nauseum), reveals a more pragmatic side to their behavior, one spurred by notions of self-aggrandizement rather than idealism.
- There are as many examples of self sacrifice and modesty and ideals because of the strict way people were raised. Of course there were self-interested people, that is human nature, however they were also educated and trained and disciplined to override self interest and live modestly. Some people call it brainwashing. I say the word inculcate or imbue.
-I am well aware of the Muromachi period's cosmopolitanism. However, while literacy was growing by leaps and bounds during this time, it was by no means common yet, nor was it as widespread as it would become in the Edo period. A good book to check out is Peter Kornicki's "The Book in Japan."
-Finally, we are indeed at an impasse. You are using only the house laws and literature to back your points. And while you and I are in agreeance about certain aspects, as long as you continue to use only house laws as examples, you are trying to solve a puzzle with only half the pieces. Relatively few actual documents are translated which actually deal with gunchujo or land/reward documents, but the ones that are point to a very nuanced and much more pragmatic understanding of warrior behavior. For two good examples of Kamakura documents (although neither are holistic surveys in and of themselves), see Mass's "The Development of Kamakura Rule 1180-1250: A History with Documents," and "Lordship and Inheritance in Early Medieval Japan." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.109.121 (talk) 15:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- There is no Impasse. I am going to make sure this disinformation campaign is ended. Book sales will drop when I am through with these people. My posts and quotes directly contradict the statements of historians and expose their lack of knowledge and shallow research, especially regarding the Hagakure. These statements will be their undoing. You cannot just go around and make up statements like these:
CONLAN:
"When you have peace, you can say, the way of the warrior is death. But that's a luxury that you can only say in a time of peace. In a time of war, you can't say that," Conlan said. "I just think their 14th-century compatriots were far more sensible.
CONLAN: (Conlan conveniently has a way of making these guesses)
In a time of peace, with a stable government, and no more land rights, the Samurai needed to justify their existence. They began promoting that "the way of the Samurai was death," and exaggerating their sense of honor and loyalty. They also encouraged the idea that suicide was an ideal of the warrior, but even in the 17th century, suicides were often pragmatically motivated: If a warrior was executed, his material possessions were not passed on to his heirs. If he killed himself prior to execution, however, his possessions went to his heirs, so some made that choice to protect inheritance rights.
http://www.archaeology.org/0301/etc/kamikaze.html
Volume 56 Number 1, January/February 2003 RELICS OF THE KAMIKAZE Excavations off Japan's coast are uncovering Kublai Khan's ill-fated invasion fleet. BY JAMES P. DELGADO
"In his recent book In Little Need of Divine Intervention, which analyzes two Japanese scrolls that depict the Mongol invasion, Bowdoin College historian Thomas Conlan suggests that a scene showing a samurai falling from his horse as a bomb explodes over him was a later addition. Conlan's research masterfully refutes many of the traditional myths and commonly held perceptions of the invasion, downplaying the number of ships and troops involved and arguing that it was not the storms but the Japanese defenders ashore, as well as confusion and a lack of coordination, that thwarted the khan's two invasions. But his suggestion that the exploding bomb is an anachronism has now been demolished by solid archaeological evidence. Moreover, when the Japanese x-rayed two intact bombs, they found that one was filled just with gunpowder while the other was packed with gunpowder and more than a dozen square pieces of iron shrapnel intended to cut down the enemy. "
Karl Friday:
One of the basic tenets that modern writers associate with bushidó is that a true samurai was not only willing to risk his life when called upon to do so, but actually looked forward to the opportunity to sacrifice himself in the line of duty. As Swinson puts it, "the essence of bushido was that the young warrior should aim at dying…. In any event, death for the samurai was not something to be avoided; it was ‘a consummation devoutly to be wished’; it was the realization of a great and wonderful ideal." [EN6] This is the fundamental sentiment to be found in Yamamoto Tsunemoto’s famous Hagakure (compiled sometime in the early eighteenth century), and was the inspiration for Mishima Yukio’s eloquent post-war commentary on the text. [EN7] The Hagakure was immensely popular among the officers of the Imperial Army and its often-quoted opening line, "I have found that the way of the warrior is to die," was unquestionably used to inspire kamikaze pilots and the like.
But, however central the willingness to die might have been to twentieth century notions of bushidó, it takes a considerable leap of faith to connect this sort of philosophy with the actual behavior of the medieval samurai.
1. Friday fails to identify the true author of that quote- a real Sengoku warrior who killed hundreds of men in battle
2. Friday then says: "it takes a considerable leap of faith to connect this sort of philosophy with the actual behavior of the medieval samurai." when he could have done some actual research and found the author's actual quote:
Nabeshima Naoshige (1538-1618 A.D.) (Nabeshima was a wise leader who rose up through the ranks and fought alongside Kato Kiyomasa in Korea. He saved his clan from disaster many times and he experienced battle firsthand. He was also very modest and did not assume official lordship of the clan when it was offered, instead allowing his son to do so. It is this type of humility and values that he passed on to his followers, such as Yamamoto)
No matter whether a person belongs to the upper or lower ranks, if he has not put his life on the line at least once he has cause for shame. "Bushido is in being crazy to die. Fifty or more could not kill one such a man."
Friday stated the opposite of the truth. Does this sound like "a considerable leap of faith to connect this sort of philosophy with the actual behavior?"
That is not an impasse. You exposed a fraud historian who is trying to discredit the Hagakure. I will be posting this all over the internet, by the way. People need to be warned of this type of shoddy research.
-Well, this is obviously going nowhere. This is my last post to you, and it is a challenge: I look forward to your attempts to bring these scholars down. Do you have any books in print?
- No, I do not
Do you have any original research aside from what you are posting on wikipedia? If so I would enjoy the read. But I suspect that opinions are going to fall on deaf ears, as you cannot even read classical Japanese by your own admission. How are you going to write a book about samurai history without analyzing the real evidence? I have told you several times that I am using not only literature and house laws, but also land documents, loyalty oaths, and other offical documents, but you conveniently ignore my protestations that you examine them. It is great that your family is into this stuff and that you have such strong opinions, but your arguments fail to counter mine (or those scholars for that matter) as you are not using classical research methods. Which, I might add, every scholar you are attempting to discredit, has. When you come out with a scholarly, peer reviewed work, then we'll talk again.
- So far I have seen nothing to prove any of this. In fact I see a average knowledge of Samurai at best and definitely a below average understanding of Japanese culture.
- I do understand Classical Japanese, though I am not an expert.
- Peer review is what the three stooges needed on their Bushido articles. Only one person has correctly identified Yamamoto's source of quotes (two of the most famous ones) and that translator William Scott Wilson. The rest of them made complete fools of themselves in their haste to discredit Yamamoto's book.
- First you said there was no universal education for Samurai. You immediately lost credibility with me there. Any REAL Japanese historian knows what the Lun Yu and Sun Tzu's "art of war" is. How could you possibly not think that the warriors didn't study Buddhism, Confucious and the Chinese military classics? This alone was a red flag that you are making up your credentials.
- you say that you study "literature and house laws, but also land documents, loyalty oaths, and other offical documents" How does this help prove Conlan's, Fridays and Hursts arguments? I don't see any examples or quotations at all.
-I claim no expertise yet,
- Of course you don't
though I have read many of the classical works we are discussing, and I have no vested interest in disproving either argument. You are too vociferous in your opposition,
- These jokers are wrong and they contradict the words of the warriors themselves. They just said the equivalent that the sun rises in the west instead of the east.
which means that you have an agenda yourself (are you a martial artist; or perhaps your family has a vested interest in propagating your particular opinion?), unlike the scholars you are trying to discredit.
- The scholars make money from books, I'd say thats a vested interest. Fame and money. My interest is only for accuracy.
I have heard them speak and spoken to them personally at various talks at universities and asked them about their opinions and they have no reason to want to discredit anything.
- You must be joking. They want book deals like Turnbull. Even you admitted being envious of Turnbull. Book sales equals dollars. I also see an attempt at western ethnocentrism. It is an attempt to portray samurai as no more brave or loyal than those warriors of any other country. Have you ever heard of any other country where laws had to be passed because the number of people killing themselves as a show of loyalty to their lord had become too great?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Why would they want to do that if it were true? What they are trying to do is end the misrepresentation that modern day martial arts and other folk who had little understanding of the traditions they were practicing.
- The martial artists are out of touch with reality. Budo and Bushido are two different things. Modern martial arts are not related to Classical Japanese martial arts.
- How does any of your statements here change the fact that Conlan and Friday both say that Edo period Samurai created the exaggerated emphasis on loyalty, duty and death? Let me restate that if anything, Edo period emphasis on these values was WEAKER. Kato and the other lords prescribed "rewards and punishments". They threatened forced seppuku, banishment or worse for not following these tenets. Finally, since you keep failing to realize this, these are the core arguments of Friday's and Hurst's hit pieces on the Hagakure: "The way of the Warrior is death" and "being crazy to die" were written by Yamamoto. They were not. These were passed on to Yamamoto by Nabeshima Naoshige. It appears in written form. Only Wilson (the translator of Hagakure) correctly identifies this. How could Hurst, Conlan and Friday have missed such an important fact? LACK OF RESEARCH. After incorrectly attributing the quotes to Yamamoto, Hurst and Friday then say it's hard to attribute such an attitude to a real fighting warrior. That is sloppy. Its bad enough that they got the quote wrong, then they fail to realize that a REAL combat veteran such as Naoshige was the source. That is embarassing. Peer review is sorely needed, you are correct.
- You can keep typing these long replies trying to change the subject away from the now disproven core arguments on the Hagakure. The source was a Sengoku warlord.
Indeed, you are right-not many Japanese know anything about their past, and it is from most of these people that misunderstandings about samurai history were disseminated into America and other Western nations (See Don Draeger). It is to counter such opinions that many of these scholars wrote the books that they did, based off of original research in the original, classical language in which the warriors and courtiers of Japan's past wrote. So again, I reiterate my challenge: prove it,
- I already did prove it. No one will be crediting Yamamoto's "crazy to die" quotes to anyone else because it appears in Wilson's text. Also he did attribute quotes these to a real fighting warrior: Naoshige, a veteran of many wars who slew many men.
because as of now you are spinning your wheels. All the while these scholars continue to sell books and teach widely acclaimed classes in their field. When yours comes out I will gladly read it, and if your evidence can put a dent in theirs, so be it. I will accept it, but until then, I guess you should keep posting here because to be honest, this place is the best chance for you to make your case. Post all you want on the internet; I look forward to seeing how people view your arguments. Good luck.
- Type the word "samurai" into your search engine, This entry comes up number one. I'd say thats plenty of publicity. I will be posting copy of these historians attempts at discrediting the Hagakure all over the place. Don't ever underestimate the power of the internet.
P.S. the Koyo gunkan is a 20 volume work, written by Kosaka Masanobu and compiled by Kasuga Sojiro. What do you expect, that I will have it memorized?
- Any Japanese expert knows that the Koyogunkan contains the writings of the Takeda clan and it is a prime example of the Confucian education they received. I thought you would have recognized the excerpts. The Iwamizudera Monogatari (chapter 20) You don't have that memorized? Kosaka was Takeda's retainer. Opinions in Ninety-Nine Articles by Takeda Nobushige is also a chapter of Koyogunkan. By the way, let me take this opportunity to point out that Daidoji Yuzan and Yamaga Soko were scholars of Koyogunkan and its editors. Someone else did all of the background work for their Confucian studies.
It might have been helpful also had you cited that, rather than simply the author's name, because I do not see one citation above that indicates the quote comes from the Koyo gunkan.
- You said you are an expert on Japanese history. You don't recognize these famous quotes?
You say you want historical accuracy, but all you do is repeat the same quotes ad nauseum,
- It is more impressive to read the words of the real warriors. why make up or guess their social values when we can read them?
- Some of the quotes fall into two categories for example:
This description proves that the real fighting warriors such as Takeda Shingen valued the "way of the warrior as death" (contrary to what Hurst and Conlan try to say) :
"he (Takeda) was a strict disciplinarian as a warrior, and there is an exemplary story in the Hagakure relating his execution of two brawlers, not because they had fought, but because they had not fought to the death. It is not surprising to learn that he was an avid reader of Sun Tzu and Han Fei Tzu."
- I also posted this as proof that The Chinese classics were a study of Takeda. The scholarship of the Takeda in the Chinese classics is famous. Since you mention the Koyogunkan, I expect you know this already. Posting the quote proves two different points. I dont think there is harm in doing it more than once as long as it proves 2 different things.
while ignoring my pleas for you to address my questions.
- Every time I answer your questions (which you should already know the answer if you have read those books) You ask new questions or alter the original question. I answered your question about the common background of educational texts and The balance between the pen and the sword. Now you move on to new questions/comments or try to divert away from Hurst's and Friday's mistakes on the Hagakure origins. Let's focus on how Hurst, Conlan, and Friday could have all three missed the origins of the Hagakure, therefore rendering the basis of their articles invalid.
- Lets also focus on how they could claim that "The way of the warrior is death" developed in the Edo Period. Or the fact that loyalty and duty were emphasized in the Edo Period.
Conlan has a history of doing things like this. Hurst drew from flawed sources like Chamberlain, but Friday I would expect to verify the works before quoting them. How could this have happened unless they had some sort of an agenda.
**Here is an example that most people can understand. Your argument is the equivalent of: "Most Americans are uneducated, disloyal brutes. Even though we have the U.S. Constitution doesn't mean that all people followed it. Even if they did, i challenge you to prove it. I mean take a look at Benedict Arnold (Who tried to surrender West Point to the British), The American Civil War (where 620,000 people died), Ruby Ridge, Waco, Timothy McVeigh and the Unibomber. What a bunch of traitors and trouble makers. What about the leaders of the country. Didn't a U.S. Senator nearly beat a colleague to death on the floor of the U.S. Senate? Didn't former Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton shoot Vice President Aaron Burr in a duel, on July 11, 1804? Didn't the early presidents own slaves? And Why does the DNA of Thomas Jefferson's slave,Sally Hemings children match Jefferson's DNA??? Sally Hemings herself was the daughter of Jefferson's father-in-law with one of his own slaves. Let's not forget racist Senator Strom Thurmond(1902-2003) whose daughter Essie Mae Washington-Williams he fathered with his 16 year old African-American maid. What a bunch of crooks. Take a look at Richard Nixon, Watergate and the Iran-Contra affair or the Bush stance on Wiretapping. They don't follow the Constitution. What about the men who shot Kennedy and Lincoln (or the people who backed them). Look at all the betrayal of the spies, John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen and The Rosenbergs. What about the treatment of African-Americans before the civil rights movement? What about the killing of Indians/Native Americans? What about the cowboys of the old west who shot each other in the back most of the time instead of face to face as depicted in the movies? Based on this, I conclude that Americans are a bunch of disloyal traitors who don't follow the constitution. Look how Americans treat their enemies, they kill just as many as the Nazi's. In Latin America, they have a proxy do the killings. In Iraq they pay death squads. The rendition program sends people to Egypt and former Eastern Block countries where they are experts on torture. What a bunch of savages. -----The reality is that most Americans believe in loyalty to the country and the constitutional rights granted to them. We don't need a book to tell us that either. Torture, killing and enslavement is committed by Americans against their adversaries so, In a way they are just like the Samurai. They are just better at covering it up.
- One last point. When I speak with American veterans of the Pacific battles of World War II, I run into people who saw Kamikaze attacks. When I ask about what they think of Kamikaze, often times their reaction is angry or hostile, which I can understand. One thing that they had in common was that they feared the resolve of the Kamikaze. The veterans would say "How in the heck can you convince a man or a group of them for that matter, to become the world's first cruise missile?" The bottom line is that The U.S. Veterans had a grudging admiration for the resolve of the pilots. The veterans said that if the rest of the soldiers had even a fraction of the Kamikaze's attitude, they were in big trouble. More than one U.S. veteran told me "we took very few prisoners" (on Pacific Islands) and that the Japanese soldiers would not surrender. In Japan, the civilian population was being trained in the use of spears and other weapons. They were instructed to fight to the finish. I think American historians see only the post World War II Japanese culture and misinterpret or project this on the past. For those born before the War, life was something else. There was a strict and rigid society where personal desires and ambitions could be overridden. The Post WWII Occupation of Japan and changes in society in general have wiped out most of the remnants of these old values.
- Unlike Hurst and Friday, I have actually spoken with Kamikaze pilots to find out what motivated them. I also read some of their letters. Most of them were well aware of "tricks and treachery of the politicians" (propaganda) used to get them to fight harder. (Some of them were shown maps depicting Japan as much larger than the United States and they were angry about this) They chose to go into battle anyways out of a sense of duty to the country, not because of Bushido. Some of them laughed and said "we never said "Banzai" for the emperor before going on a mission."
- The essays by Hurst,Friday, and Conlan are bizarre and I question the timing of their release. (Conlan's piece "The Truth about Samurai" actually ran in November, 2003 just before the release of Tom Cruise's "The Last Samurai") After all, one must consider the context: At the time of their publication, Japan's economy had just peaked after decades of postwar economic expansion. Japanese business successes, real estate investments and purchase of high profile buildings in the United States were setting off alarms. Fearful Americans foresaw an invasion by the Japanese of the financial kind. Japan had risen to become the second largest economy in the world only a few decades after losing a major war. Films such as "Rising Sun" were released and It appears that there was a concentrated effort to "demystify" the Japanese by attacking the heart of Japanese culture: the Samurai warrior. The historians (I call them "the three stooges") attempted to strictly define the philosophy of Bushido, making it a creation of the peaceful Edo period (1601-1868) of Japan's history and therefore not a product of the true fighting Samurai of the Muromachi Era (1336-1573AD). Disregarding extensive anecdotal evidence and expert opinion to the contrary, these so-called historians tried to state that the warrior emphasis on death, loyalty and honor were exaggerated during the Tokugawa Era and not emphasized before this time period. Hurst and Chamberlain (whom Hurst quotes in his essay) both seem genuinely envious and disturbed that a culture other than a western one came up with Bushido and a book such as the Hagakure. (Chamberlain wrote his essay "The Invention of a New Religion" before the general introduction of the Hagakure to western audiences. He actually says that the only thing lacking of this new religion called Bushido is a central text or bible) Hurst in fact, seems almost desperate to discredit Tsunetomo Yamamoto and the Hagakure. The timing of these essays is apparent. In order to assuage the fears of the west in the face of economic invasion by a mysterious eastern power, the experts tried to cut the adversary down to size by making them no more brave or loyal than their own historical warriors. --Masaru 勝 8/16/2008
(Excerpt from my forthcoming essay: "Hit Piece on the Hagakure: allegations of ethnocentrism in the definition of Bushido" AKA "How three historians tried to distort western perceptions of the values of the Samurai of Japan")
76.124.109.121 (talk) 00:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
History Channel
Hey. Yesterday I saw a history chanel movie/show/special/whatever about Samurai. I thouroughly(spelling?) enjoyed it. So, when I came to check this article to see if they both agree, I see that this article was many false claims. I ask if someone would be willing to find the video and update the article using it. I would do so myself, however I could not record the video and as such do not have a copy to edit with. Oh, and if someone would be as kind as to give me a link to a copy of the video(hint: Completely legal), that would be great. - ~VNinja~ 21:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. If you try google videos or you0tube, you might find one; sometimes the history channel even places older videos for free on their website. Although I doubt it if it is new. You could get one off of a bit-torrent site, but that might be crossing the legality line. Be aware, however, that most of those shows abbreviate things heavily, as they only have a short amount of time to talk about a very deep subject. I wouldn't rely only on the information contained therein for opinions about history. But they are fun to watch and do contain some good stuff.
However, wouldn't they contain good information to add to the article? For example, I saw something about how some Samurai practiced enemy head-hunting in battles to prove their service to the empire, and I also saw many good things about the warrior suicide. Shouldn't these be incorperated into the article? - ~VNinja~ 23:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I saw the same thing the other day - the history channel would be a good source for this article. I had no way of recording it, though. --BradTraylor (talk) 03:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
-As you've no doubt realized from the changes to the main article, much work remains to be done and is attacked by constantly by people who want to believe in one thing when the evidence presented by Japanese and foreign scholars disagrees. I just watched that show as well. And the practice of taking heads (or buntori in Japanese) was common-it was often the only way to prove one's presence on the battlefield. I will try to amend it with a citation sometime soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.109.121 (talk) 20:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Importance of Honesty, modesty, manners
Asakura Toshikage (1428-1481 A.D.)
When various reports are being given, one should not allow the least bit of distortion in terms of their truth or falsehood.
Hojo Nagauji
(1432-1519 A.D.)
One should not tell a lie, no matter to whom he is speaking or how little is said. Even the most trivial matters should be shown as they are. If one tells a lie, it will become a habit, and in the end he will be forsaken by others. One should understand that to be questioned by others can bring on shame for a lifetime.
Asakura Norikage (1474-1555 A.D.)
No matter how lacking a man may be in humanity, if he would be a warrior, he should first of all tell no lies. It is also basic that he be not the least bit suspicious, that he habitually stand on integrity, and that he know a sense of shame. The reason being that when a man who has formerly told lies and acted suspiciously participates in some great event, he will be pointed at behind his back and neither his allies nor his enemies will believe in him, regardless of how reasonable his words may be. One should be very prudent about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 10:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Hojo Shigetoki (1198-1261 A.D.)
Concerning matters of dress, no matter by whom one is being seen he should not appear shabbily, and even if he is mixing with the lower classes he should dress to a moderate extent. When often in the midst of humble people, one should not repeatedly dress splendidly. A person with sensitivity will be prudent in this matter.
...
If one treats men roughly in this existence, he will be roughly treated by them in the next, for karma is never-ending in all things. And if one would rid himself of bad karma in this round of existence, he should treat well those who are not so kind to him. For if one is dealt with kindly by people, he can rejoice in his previous existence; but if he is handled roughly in this world, his previous existence is a matter for regret
.....
When one's wife or children are relating some matter to him, he should listen to them with care. If they say something unreasonable, he should consider that to be in the nature of women and children. Moreover, if they speak with reason he should be somewhat impressed and encourage them to speak in such a way hereafter. One should not look down on them because they are women and children.
...
One should not talk about the faults of others, even as a joke. For even though one may think of it as a joke, to others it may be embarrassing, and this is a bad mistake. If one would joke, he should joke about things that are a pleasure to others. One should have restraint and deep sympathy in all things.
One should not talk about a woman's faults, no matter how humble of origin she may be. This goes without saying for women of position. One should use discretion in talking about people's good points, and should say nothing about their bad ones. A person who has no judgment in these matters will likely bring shame upon himself.
Asakura Toshikage (1428-1481 A.D.)
Beginning with the immediate members of the Asakura family, all should wear clothing made of cotton at the New Year's first attendance. Likewise, all should be made to wear the family crest. If one thinks that since he has the resources he can dress in fancy attire, the lower ranks of samurai will feel it difficult to appear in a place where such showy costumes are congregated, will feign illness and put in no appearance for a year; and if they will not come for two years, the number of men serving the Asakura will decline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 07:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Hojo Nagauji
(1432-1519 A.D.)
It will not do to think that one must have swords and clothing as fine as everyone else's. It is sufficient to intend not to be unsightly. Borrowing and seeking after things one doesn't have, and piling up debts, one will be scorned by others.
To be a samurai is to be polite at all times.
One should always be genteel in his speaking. A man shows his inmost self by a single word.
If one would seek good companions, he will find them among those with whom he studies Learning and calligraphy. Harmful companions to avoid will be found among those who play go, chess, and shakuhachi.
A person's good and evil are dependent on his companions. When three people are together there will always be an exemplary person among them, and one should choose the good person and follow his example. Looking at the bad person, one should correct his own mistakes.
When one has the least bit of spare time, he should always take out some piece of literature or something with characters on it that he has kept in his pocket, and read where no one will be looking. Characters are such that if one is not used to them both waking and sleeping, they will soon be forgotten.
The writing of characters is also like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 06:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Asakura Norikage (1474-1555 A.D.)
As a human being, a man must save for the future. It has been handed down from the beginning, however, that as a samurai, one should not be like the wealthy, hoarding excesses of money, gold and silver, and making savings one's foundation.
A master should not unreasonably make requests for the possession of his retainers, such as their horses and falcons, or their swords, halberds, paintings or Chinese goods. Generally speaking, for retainers to possess valuable articles is the same as if the master himself possessed them.
Takeda Nobushige (1525-1561 A.D.)
One should not tell a lie in any situation whatsoever. In the oracles of the gods it has been said, "Although truth may not be rewarded at once, in the end it will receive the compassion of the gods and Buddhas." In battle, however, shouldn't one act according to the circumstances of the moment? In the Sun Tzu it says, "Avoid the enemy's strength, strike at his weakness. "2
One should not have contempt for the elderly, regardless of their rank. In the Lun Yu it says, "One should respect the elderly as though they were his own parents." One should not be the least bit unfilial toward his parents. In the Lun Yu it says, "In serving one's parents, one should use all his strength." One should never treat his brothers carelessly. In the Hou Han Shu it says, "One's brothers are his right and left hands."
One should not use rough manners with anyone. With priests, women, children, the poor, and the elderly, one should be all the more polite. It is said in the Li Chi that, "One is safe when polite, but in danger when ill-mannered
One should not associate with people whose conduct is poor. In the Shih Chi it says, "If you don't know a man's character, investigate who his friends are."
one should not criticize the mistakes of others. There is an old saying that goes, "Bestow on others what you yourself are fond of."
Torii Mototada
(1539-1600 AD)
The entire country will soon be in the hands of your master, Lord Ieyasu. If this is so, the men who served him will no doubt hope to become daimyo by his appointment. You should know that if such feelings arise, they are inevitably the beginning of the end of one's fortunes in the Way of the Warrior.
Being affected by the avarice for office and rank, or wanting to become a daimyo and being eager for such things ... will not one then begin to value his life? And how can a man commit acts of martial valor if he values his life? A man who has been born into the house of a warrior and yet places no loyalty in his heart and thinks only of the fortune of his position will be flattering on the surface and construct schemes in his heart, will forsake righteousness and not reflect on his shame, and will stain the warrior's name of his household to later generations. This is truly regrettable.
Be first of all prudent in your conduct and have correct manners, develop harmony between master and retainers, and have compassion on those beneath you. Be correct in the degree of rewards and punishments, and let there be no partiality in your degree of intimacy with you retainers. the foundation of man's duty as a man is in "truth." Beyond this, there is nothing to be said.
Imagawa Sadayo (1325-1420 A.D.)
"It is forbidden to bring about one's own excessive prosperity by means of exploiting the people and causing the destruction of shrines."
....
"It is forbidden to be excessive in one's own clothing and armor, while his retainers go about shabbily."
....
"One should be highly reverential of Buddhist priests and treat them with correct manners."
.....
"One should not be envious of someone who has prospered by unjust deeds. Nor should he disdain someone who has fallen while adhering to the path of righteousness."
......
"From the time one is young, he should associate with companions who are upright and not even temporarily be taken in by friends of low character. Just as water will conform to the shape of the vessel that contains it, so will a man follow the good and evil of his companions.
Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410 A.D.)
In this uncertain world, ours should be the path of discipline.
...
The man whose profession is arms should calm his mind and look into the depths of others. Doing so is likely the best of the martial arts.
....
Surely one should not act inconsiderately to another's distress, entertain a deep craving for things, or make worthless fellows one's friends. It is in the nature of man that the good is difficult to learn while the bad is easily taken to, and thus one naturally becomes gradually like those with whom he is familiar.
That the gods and Buddhas should be revered is likely known by anyone who is a man, and does not warrant being mentioned anew. But in this connection there is a small matter that should be understood.
The Buddha appeared and the gods manifested themselves in this world entirely for its sake and for the sake of those living in it. Thus, it was not to injure man, but to make his heart pure, to make correct his sense of humanity, justice, propriety, wisdom and faithfulness, and to make clear the foundation of his life. Yet, was there something further expressed in their appearances? ' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
KATO KIYOMASA (1562-1611)
For clothing, anything between cotton and natural silk will do. A man who squanders money for clothing and brings his household finances into disorder is fit for punishment. Generally one should further himself with armor that is appropriate for his social position, sustain his retainers, and use his money for martial affairs.
.....
As for the decorum at the time of a campaign, one must be mindful that he is a samurai. A person who loves beautification where it is unnecessary is fit for punishment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 05:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623 A.D.)
If a general who is to maintain the province does not have a special consciousness, his task will be a difficult one to attain. His attitudes must not be the same as the ordinary man's. Firstly, he must be correct in manners and etiquette, must not let self-interest into government, and must take care of the common people.
....
You who are my descendants should tread in my footsteps, absolutely abide by these precepts, strive to be economical, behave yourselves all the more prudently, dispense benevolence to the people, be just in government, and carry on the family customs in a manly way. If you will do this, the entire country will hear of the benevolence of our clan and there will be many who are swayed to follow us.
....
However, to oppress the people and covet the possessions of the samurai in one's desire to become quickly prosperous is absolutely laying the foundation for the destruction of the fief.
Precious metals and jewels are not necessarily treasures. Rather, one should consider his samurai and the common people as his wealth, and bring them up with gentleness and benevolence. Gold and silver are not necessarily to be recklessly accumulated; and when one receives wealth and distinction naturally through years of meritorious deeds, no disasters are likely to follow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 08:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Tokugawa Ieyasu (1543-1616)
"Life is like unto a long journey with a heavy burden. Let thy step be slow and steady, that thou stumble not. Persuade thyself that imperfection and inconvenience are the natural lot of mortals, and there will be no room for discontent, neither for despair. When ambitious desires arise in thy heart, recall the days of extremity thou has passed through. Forbearance is the root of quietness and assurance forever. Look upon the wrath of the enemy. If thou knowest only what it is to conquer, and knowest not what it is like to be defeated, woe unto thee; it will fare ill with thee. Find fault with thyself rather than with others." --
Tokugawa Ieyasu (1543-1616)
To come to know your enemy, first you must become his friend, and once you become his friend, all his defences come down. Then you can choose the most fitting method for his demise.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 10:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Uesugi Kenshin (1530-1578)
"Fate is in Heaven, the armor is on the breast, success is with the legs. Go to the battlefield firmly confident of victory, and you will come home with no wounds whatever. Engage in combat fully determined to die and you will be alive; wish to survive in the battle and you will surely meet death. When you leave the house determined not to see it again you will come home safely; when you have any thought of returning you will not return. You may not be in the wrong to think that the world is always subject to change, but the warrior must not entertain this way of thinking, for his fate is always determined. "
"Those who cling to life die, and those who defy death live. The essential thing is the mind. Look into this mind and firmly take hold of it and you will understand that there is something in you which is above birth-and-death and which is neither drowned in water nor burned by fire. I have myself gained an insight into this samadhi and know what I am telling you. Those who are reluctant to give up their lives and embrace death are not true warriors." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 05:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
SOURCE: Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki, Zen and Japanese Culture (1959)
Important Samurai related links:
Takeda family's house code Kōshū Hatto (1445AD) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 06:11, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Engelbert Kaempfer: The History of Japan, London 1727
Tales of Old Japan by Baron Algernon Bertram Freeman-Mitford Redesdale HTML Version is here
This version is a copy of the rare illustrated manuscript provided by the owner. This book was written by a member of the Japanese legation to Japan in 1871 and contains very detailed descriptions of Japanese customs including Marriage and death customs and seppuku. The book contains only unintentional, minor factual errors and I highly recommend this as a starting point for people interested in Japanese culture.
"Every day that we waited seemed as three autumns to us....Asano Takumi no Kami died without having avenged himself, and this was more than his retainers could endure. It is impossible to remain under the same heaven with the enemy of lord or father; for this reason we have dared to declare enmity against a personage of so exalted rank. This day we shall attack Kira Kotsuke no Suke, in order to finish the deed of vengeance which was begun by our dead lord. If any honourable person should find our bodies after death, he is respectfully requested to open and read this document."
The Unfettered Mind (不動智神妙録 Fudōchi Shinmyōroku) by Takuan Sōhō (沢庵 宗彭 1573–1645) Translated by [William Scott Wilson]. Tokyo, 1986 html version here
"Bury my body in the mountain behind the temple, cover it with dirt and go home. Read no sutras, hold no ceremony. Let the monks wear their robes, eat their meals, and carry on as on normal days." At his final moment he wrote the Chinese character for yume (夢)- dream, put down his brush, and died.
Bushido, the Soul of Japan by Inazo Nitobé DECEMBER, 1904
(Excerpt from the preface dated Twelfth Month, 1899, Malvern, Pa., .)
"Taking advantage of enforced idleness on account of long illness, I put down in the order now presented to the public some of the answers given in our household conversation. They consist mainly of what I was taught and told in my youthful days, when Feudalism was still in force."
(Notice how Nitobe describes his book as what he was taught as a young man in household conversation. Contrary to what western historians have asserted.)
THE RELIGION OF THE SAMURAI A STUDY OF ZEN PHILOSOPHY AND DISCIPLINE IN CHINA AND JAPAN BY KAITEN NUKARIYA, PROFESSOR OF KEI-O-GI-JIKU UNIVERSITY AND OF
SO-TO-SHU BUDDHIST COLLEGE, TOKYO [1913]
The Hagakure (In the Shadow of Leaves) or Hagakure Kikigaki (葉隠聞書) Tsunetomo Yamamoto 1716AD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 06:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
A Book of Five Rings (Go Rin No Sho) Written by Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645) Translated by Victor Harris (not my favorite translation, but it will do for now...)
"I have climbed mountain Iwato of Higo in Kyushu to pay homage to heaven, pray to Kwannon, and kneel before Buddha. I am a warrior of Harima province, Shinmen Musashi No Kami Fujiwara No Geshin, age sixty years."
- Budoshoshinshu - The Code of The Warrior By Daidoji Yuzan (ISBN 0897500962)
"The man who would be a warrior considers it essential to keep in mind the spirit of battle 24 hours a day. Our country is different from others, for here, even the lowliest merchant, farmer, or artisan is attentive enough to carry with him a rusty old sword. This is the custom of the people of the warrior nation of Japan, and is the Way of the gods, unchanged for ten thousand generations."
SKETCHES OF JAPANESE MANNERS AND CUSTOMS (London, 1867) Photos from this book can be viewed here
by J. M. W. SILVER Lieutenant Royal Marines, Light Infantry (Late of the Royal Marine Battalion for Service in Japan) Illustrated by Native Drawings, Reproduced in Fac-Simile by Means of Chromo-Lithography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 04:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
(excerpt)
This man was a fair specimen of the lonin type, and was a most determined ruffian, whose whole life had been a career of crime.
When exposed in the streets of Yokohama the day preceding his execution, he conducted himself with great bravado, remarking on the improvements in the town since he last visited it, and expressing his regret that he had not killed a consul.
At the place of execution he made an impassioned speech, in which he declared that he was a gentleman by birth, and had studied the arts and sciences, and never believed the government would sacrifice a Japanese for the death of a foreigner. He said that the days would come when they would repent the encouragement they were now giving to strangers; and ended by complimenting the executioner on his well-known skill.
Nipon o daï itsi ran; ou, Annales des empereurs du Japon Isaac Titsingh
Isaac Titsingh (10 January 1745 in Amsterdam – 2 February 1812 in Paris)
(English translation here)
Secret memoirs of the shoguns: Isaac Titsingh and Japan, 1779-1822 By Isaac Titsingh, Timon Screech Published by Routledge, 2006 ISBN 070071720X, 9780700717200 265 pages
Isaac Titsingh was head of the Japanese station of the Dutch East India Company 1780-94. He was a career merchant, but unusual in having a classical education and training as a physician. He could also read Chinese. In Japan, his impact was enormous. He became a friend and confidant of the shogun's father-in-law, the famously wise but wily Shimazu Shigehide, almost causing war between father and son-in-law. He also attempted the project of equipping Japan with an ocean-going fleet. However, he left Japan disappointed in the ability of the country to embrace change. After many years in India he settled in Paris, where he wrote down his experiences. It is one of the most exciting journals of the period and reveals the almost unknown world of eighteenth-century Japan, discussing politics, history, poetry and rituals. The Illustrations of Japan appeared posthumously in 1822 in English and French. This fully annotated edition makes the original English version available for the first time in 180 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 05:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Japanese Feudal Laws JOHN CAREY HALL, THE TOKUGAWA LEGISLATION, YOKOHAMA 1910, PP. 286-319
'The study of literature and the practice of the military arts, including archery and horsemanship, must be cultivated diligently. "On the left hand literature, on the right hand use of arms" was the rule of the ancients. Both must be pursued concurrently. --'The Buke Sho-Hatto ("Rule for the Military Houses")1615AD'
On the same day (i. e. 28th June, 1663) the following prohibition of (Jun-shi) the custom of vassals following a deceased lord in death was verbally promulgated: -
"That the custom of following a master in death is wrong and unprofitable is a caution which has been at times given of old; but, owing to the fact that it has not actually been prohibited, the number of those who cut their belly to follow their lord on his decease has become very great. For the future, to those retainers who may be animated by such an idea, their respective lords should intimate, constantly and in very strong terms, their disapproval of the custom. If, notwithstanding this warning, any instance of the practice should occur, it will be deemed that the deceased lord was to blame for unreadiness. Henceforward, moreover, his son and successor will be held to be blameworthy for incompetence, as not having prevented the suicides."
(So many people began killing themselves, it had to be specifically outlawed (again). Ieyasu was dismayed that as many as 15 to 20 people would kill themselves when their lord died. He outlawed Junshi, but after Ieyasu died, people started committing Junshi again, making the new 1663AD law necessary)
FEUDAL AND MODERN JAPAN Volume I. By Arthur May Knapp 1841-
"The samurai of thirty years ago had
behind him a thousand years of training
in the law of honor, obedience, duty, and
self-sacrifice. At his very birth these vir-
tues were already his. His personal nur-
ture only preserved and kept them alive.
It was not needed to create or establish
them. As a child he had but to be
instructed, as indeed he was from his
earliest years, in the etiquette of self-
immolation. The fine instinct of honor
demanding it was in the very blood..."
Stances of survival. One can scarcely believe, as he meets the courteous, unobtrusive gentlemen now at the heads of all the Departments of State, that only a generation ago these men, being rarely
of noble lineage or daimyo blood, but only of samurai rank, were the picturesque and loyal clansmen of feudal chieftains, ready on the instant to give the supreme proof of knightly devotion. One
passes now in the city streets the trim and ever sedate policemen, with never cause for suspicion, save perhaps from their scholarly aspect and dignified bearing, that these also were once knights of the Empire. Their short sword, for self-immolation, has disappeared, but not the punctilious care and fidelity with which they perform their every duty to their superiors, and keep their honor stainless. The longer sword, changed to a Western fashion, still hangs at the side, and when
on occasion it leaps from its scabbard the training of centuries is revealed in the wielding of its deadly blade.
Nor is it only among the Government leaders and officials that the samurai spirit is manifesting itself in the new career upon which the nation has entered. As of old,the Japanese knight is not only the sword, but also the brain of Japan. As during the age of seclusion and the Great Peace, while never forgetting or slighting his duty as a warrior, he became equally devoted to the advancement of learning, so today the marvelous progress of education in the Empire is largely due to his efforts and his devotion. (68-69)
(Notice how this 1896 description of Japanese chivalry was identical to Inazo Nitobe's "Bushido" despite being written three years prior to Nitobe's book.}
History of Japanese Currencies
Photos of Sengaku-ji, Burial place of the 47 ronin of Ako
- Death Before Dishonor By Masaru Fujimoto--Special to The Japan Times: Dec. 15, 2002
Eyewitness account of a sword duel description of Saya-ate
Kyoto Costume Museum This is a great site. click on "Costume History in Japan" to see how people dressed through the ages.
Tokyo National Museum Oldest and Largest Museum in Japan
The Art of War Sunzi, 6th cent. B.C. Translated from the Chinese by Lionel Giles, M.A. (1910)
To my brother
Captain Valentine Giles, R.G.
in the hope that
a work 2400 years old
may yet contain lessons worth consideration
by the soldier of today
this translation
is affectionately dedicated.
Legends of the Samurai by Hiroaki Sato Overlook (November 1, 1995) ISBN-10: 0879516194
47 Ronin Story by John Allyn. Charles E. Tuttle Company (December 15, 1989) ISBN-10: 0804801967
(This is a good introductory book for the 47 Ronin Story (probably the only one in English). Readers should be aware that this book contains embellishments, however it is fairly accurate historically and very enjoyable.)
II Naosuké and New Japan (1909)
The earliest historical relations between Mexico and Japan : from original documents preserved in Spain and Japan (1906)Nuttall, Zelia, 1858-1933
OLD AND NEW JAPAN Samurais and Their Descendants. BY CAPTAIN S. SAKURAI, I. J. NAVY DECEMBER 29, 1897.
VI. v SOCIETY THE SAMURAIS. The Society in Japan under the feudal sys- tem was grouped in clans, castes and orders. Outside of the Imperial fam- ily, we had as lords, the Shogun and the Daimyos, and as clients, the Sam- urais (the Soldiers) and the citizens (farmers, artist, merchants.) The Samurais class, owing to its military and pclitical influence, has always been the most interesting, and is worthy of special notice here.
The long period of civil war gave birth to the peculiar class cf Samurais. They did homage to the feudal Dai- myos, and occupied the middle rank in society. They wore two swords which symbolized their soul. They were trained in the first place to be faithful even unto death to their military lords, from whom they received their pen- sion. The Samurais were chivalrous, patriotic, industrious, honest, frank and intelligent. They constituted the best educated class. To them honor was everything, life and property of no account. The anecdote of the forty-seven ronins gives us a touching example of the Samurais spirit.
Tales of the Samurai; stories illustrating bushido, the moral principles of the Japanese knighthood. With 8 coloured illus. by a Japanese artist (1920) Miyamori, Asataro, 1869-1952
The presentation of a Samurai sword, the gift of Doctor Toichiro Nakahama, of Tokio, Japan, to the town of Fairhaven, Massachusetts (1918) Nakahama, Manjiro, 1827-1898
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 07:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Description of Japan by St. Francis Xavier, 1552AD
In December 1547, Francis was in Malacca (Malaysia) waiting to return to Goa (India) when he met a low ranked samurai named Anjiro (possibly spelled "Yajiro") Anjiro was not a noble man or an intellectual, but he impressed Xavier because he took careful notes of everything he said in church. Xavier made the decision to go to Japan in part because this low ranked samurai convinced him in Portuguese that the Japanese people were highly educated and eager to learn. They were hard workers and respectful of authority. In their laws and customs they were led by reason, and, should the Christian faith convince them of its truth, they would accept it en mass:
Excerpts from a letter to the Society of Jesus in Rome from St. Francis Xavier about his activities in Japan , 1552
"Japan is a very large empire entirely composed of islands. One language is spoken throughout, and it as not very difficult to learn. This country was discovered by the Portuguese eight or nine years ago. The Japanese are very ambitious of honors and distinctions, and think themselves superior to all nations in military glory and valor. They prize and honor all that has to do with war, and all such things, and there is nothing of which they are so proud as of weapons adorned with gold and silver. They always wear swords and daggers both in and out of the house, and when they go to sleep they hang them at the bed's head. In short, they value arms more than any people I have ever seen. They are excellent archers, and usually fight on foot, though there is no lack of horses in the country. They are very polite to each other, but not to foreigners, whom they utterly despise. They spend their means on arms, bodily adornment, and on a number of attendants, and do not in the least care to save money. They are, in short, a very warlike people, and engaged in continual wars among themselves; the most powerful in arms bearing the most extensive sway. They have all one sovereign, although for one hundred and fifty years past the princes have ceased to obey him, and this is the cause of their perpetual feuds.
When I was at Yamaguchi with Father Cosmo Torres and Joam Fernandez, the King of Bungo, one of the most powerful of the country, wrote to ask me to go to him; a Portuguese vessel had come into his harbor, and he wished to talk with me on certain subjects. So, both to find out how he was affected towards our holy religion, and to pay a visit to the Portuguese, I set out at once for Bungo, leaving Cosmo and Joam with the Christians. The King gave me a most gracious reception, and it was a great pleasure to me to meet with the Portuguese.
The King of Bungo commands numerous and very war like troops, and as things go with Japanese kings, has vast dominions to govern. He has a great liking for the Portuguese. No sooner was he informed of the power and character of the King of Portugal than he wrote to him asking to be admitted into the number of his friends, and sending him a rich suit of armor as a token of friendship. He has also sent an envoy to the Viceroy of India, offering him with many compliments his friendship, alliance, and good offices; this messenger, who came to India with me, has been most honorably and liberally received by the Viceroy. Before I left Japan, the King of Bungo promised the Portuguese and myself to take Cosmo Torres and Joam Fernandez under his protection. The sovereign elect of Yamaguchi bound himself in the same way, when he enters into the possession of his kingdom...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 07:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Other quotes attributed to Xavier:
In his book "Japanese Culture" (2000), historian H. Paul Varley notes the description of Japan given by Jesuit leader St. Francis Xavier (1506-1552): “There is no nation in the world which fears death less”. Xavier further describes the honor and manners of the people: “I fancy that there are no people in the world more punctilious about their honour than the Japanese, for they will not put up with a single insult or even a word spoken in anger.” Xavier spent the years 1549-1551 converting Japanese to Christianity. He also observed: “The Japanese are much braver and more warlike than the people of China, Korea, Ternate and all of the other nations around the Philippines.”
Letter by William Adams(September 24, 1564–May 16, 1620), written 11 October, 1611. Will Adams was the first Briton to arrive in Japan. He was stranded there in April, 1600 and later became an adviser to Ieyasu Tokugawa. He was also the inspiration for the Character of John Blackthorne in James Clavell's miniseries "Shogun"
"The people of this Land of Japan are good of nature, curteous above measure, and valiant in war: their justice is severely executed without any partiality upon transgressors of the law. They are governed in great civility. I mean, not a land better governed in the world by civil policy. The people be very superstitious in their religion, and are of diverse opinions. "
Sir Francis Xavier Letter 29 January 1552
"There are two kinds of writing in Japan, one used by men and the other by women; and for the most part both men and women, especially of the nobility and the commercial class, have a literary education. The bonzes, or bonzesses, in their monasteries teach letters to the girls and boys, though rich and noble persons entrust the education of their children to private tutors.” "Most of them can read, and this is a great help to them for the easy understanding of our usual prayers and the chief points of our holy religion"
Account of Japan sent to Father Ignatius Loyola at Rome, drawn from the statements of Anger (Han-Siro's western name). The Japanese Convert. Letter preserved at College of Coimbra.
They are discreet, magnanimous and lovers of virtue and letters, honouring learned men very much.
In the first place, the nation with which we have had to do here surpasses in goodness any of the nations lately discovered. I really think that among barbarous nations there can be none that has more natural goodness than the Japanese. They are of a kindly disposition, not at all given to cheating, wonderfully desirous of honour and rank. Honour with them is placed above everything else. There are a great many poor among them, but poverty is not a disgrace to any one. There is one thing among them of which I hardly know whether it is practised anywhere among Christians. The nobles, however poor they may be, receive the same honour from the rest as if they were rich ;
NOVEMBER 11 1549 DESCRIPTION OF JAPANESE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM BY XAVIER
But now we must give you an account of our stay at Cagoxima.
We put into that port because the wind was adverse
to our sailing to Meaco, which is the largest city in Japan, and
most famous as the residence of the King and the Princes. It
is said that after four months are passed the favourable season
for a voyage to Meaco will return, and then with the good help
of God we shall sail thither. The distance from Cagoxima is
three hundred leagues. We hear wonderful stories about the
size of Meaco : they say that it consists of more than ninety
thousand dwellings. There is a very famous University there,
as well as five chief colleges of students, and more than two
hundred monasteries of bonzes, and of others who are like
coenobites, called Legioxi, as well as of women of the same kind,
who are called Hamacutis.
Besides this of Meaco, there are in Japan five other prin
cipal academies, at Coya, at Negu, at Fisso, and at Homia.
These are situated round Meaco, with short distances between
them, and each is frequented by about three thousand five hun
dred scholars. Besides these there is the Academy at Bandou,
much the largest and most famous in all Japan, and at a great
distance from Meaco. Bandou is a large territory, ruled by six
minor princes, one of whom is more powerful than the others
and is obeyed by them, being himself subject to the King of
Japan, who is called the Great King of Meaco. The things
that are given out as to the greatness and celebrity of these
universities and cities are so wonderful as to make us think of
seeing them first with our own eyes and ascertaining the truth,
and then when we have discovered and know how things really
are, of writing an account of them to you.
10
They say that there are several lesser academies besides
those which we have mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 17:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Engelbert Kaempfer: The History of Japan, London 1727
The Japanese are warlike people.
The Japanese are not wanting something, which I don't know, whether I shall call it boldness, or Heroism; I mean, such a contempt of their life, that when they have been subdued and conquer'd by an enemy, or when they find it out of their power to revenge some scorn or injury done to them, they do not scruple, with an undaunted stoicism, to lay violent hands upon themselves: (The author's Latin expression signifies laying violent hands upon their bowels, because they generally make away with themselves by ripping open their belly.) The histories of their civil wars are full of such surprizing actions, whereby, it seems, that in former ages they strove, who could shew the most courage, and greatness of mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 09:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 09:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Why Shudō is placed before marriage?
Is it so important or only for scandal purposes to attract interest of reader?--79.111.164.8 (talk) 18:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
- feel free to move it. This is wikipedia afterall. Help make the article better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 04:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I can think of one very good reason: shudō relationships would have come before marriage in a young man's life. Exploding Boy (talk) 04:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hey., I remember your "expert" opinion on the seppuku talk page where you questioned the validity of the fact that kaishaku left the heads attached by a piece of skin during the seppuku ritual:
(Along with others who claimed seppuku was "rare, caused people to lose their estate and people had to be forced to do it kicking and screaming")
I have doubts about the following paragraph:
"To distinguish the decapitation from a common execution, a trusted and skilled samurai was chosen to strike the blow, from behind, leaving the head attached to the body by a flap of skin at the front of the neck."
can anyone confirm or deny? Exploding Boy 13:43, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I think I see what you mean... Maybe one could be a little less explicit. Probably the main point here is not to separate head and body entirely, which could be enough of a description. --Markus Krötzsch 22:07, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's not the explicitness that bothers me, it's whether or not it's actually true. Exploding Boy 04:13, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
Samurai myths section
(deleted from article for excessive length of quotes, will edit this, add Conlan and Friday section)
More than one western historian has claimed that the 1904 text Bushido, the Soul of Japan written by Inazo Nitobé fabricated a code of warrior ethics. However, in an excerpt from the preface of the book dated "Twelfth Month, 1899, Malvern, Pa." Nitobe himself states the origins of his Bushido.
- "Taking advantage of enforced idleness on account of long illness, I put down in the order now :presented to the public some of the answers given in our household conversation. They consist :mainly of what I was taught and told in my youthful days, when Feudalism was still in force."
Nitobe describes his book as what he was taught as a young man in household conversation. This is in direct contradiction to what western historians have asserted.
In a 1990 article entitled Death, Honor, and Loyalty: The Bushidó Ideal, G. Cameron Hurst III attributes Tokugawa era ideals as "an excessive attachment to the ideals of the late sixteenth century". In reality the ideals had existed far earlier:
- The few Tokugawa works which explicitly use the term bushidó turn out, in fact, to be a very :narrow stream of thought essentially out of touch with the broader spectrum of Confucian ideas to :which most of the samurai class adhered. There was no well-articulated series of six or seven :values; the primary emphasis in the Hagakure, Budó shoshinshú, and similar writings is an :excessive attachment to the ideals of the late sixteenth century, focusing especially on loyalty, :duty, and courage. They also idealize a reckless death offered up in the lord’s name: as :Tsunetomo put it "The way of the samurai is found in death," or, even more bluntly, "simply become :insane and die as though mad (shinigurui)."
When Hurst finally does "discover" bushido a few years later for a piece he wrote for the 1997 text "The Origins of Japan's Medieval World: Courtiers, Clerics, Warriors, and Peasants in the Fourteenth Century", he carefully omits key portions of the translated texts which would contradict his statements in the 1990 piece. Hurst describes the writings as "chronicles of bushido" and performs a seemingly capable analysis of Imagawa Ryoshun's "Imagawa jo", Shiba Yoshimasa's "Chikubasho", Nitta Yoshisada "Yoshisadaki", and Ashikaga Takauji's "Tojiin goisho". However, upon closer examination of The Chikubasho (14th century text), for example, readers would find:
- First, a man whose profession is the use of arms should think and then act upon not only his own :fame, but also that of his descendants. He should not scandalize his name forever by holding his :one and only life too dear. On the other hand, in the light of this, to consider this life that is :given to us only once as nothing more than dust and ashes, and lose it at a time when one should :not, would be to gain a reputation that is not worth mentioning. One's main purpose in throwing :away his life is to do so either for the sake of the Emperor or in some great undertaking of a :military general. It is that exactly that will be the great fame of one's descendants.
(This is the main, opening paragraph of the Chikubasho. It must have been very important to Shiba Yoshimasa since it is the central theme of his paper, yet Hurst makes no mention of it. This is obviously an intentional omission on the part of Mr. Hurst, one that escaped scrutiny for all of these years. (This statement contradicts not only Hurst but also Thomas Conlan who wrote a chapter ("Largesse and the limits on loyalty in the 14th century") in the same "The Origins of Japan's Medieval World: Courtiers, Clerics, Warriors, and Peasants in the Fourteenth Century" by Jeffery Mass. I will be contacting Mr. Mass to find out how this omission made it past peer review. )
or this:
- It is a matter of regret to let the moment when one should die pass by.
- There are men who believe that when one is serving the lord, he first receives the lord's favor :and only then makes endeavors in loyalty and his duties. They have understood the matter in :reverse. Being able to live in this world is from the beginning by the grace of one's lord. It is :a sad thing for men to forget this and, while setting their ambitions yet higher, envy their :masters and the world at large.
Any reference to duty to one's lord, loyalty, dying in battle and honor--the most impressive quotes of the text--are omitted. A similar treatment is given to Imagawa's letter as well. Hurst relies on the average reader's inability to access to the original text to leave them in the dark as to the true values of the Samurai. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 17:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
military nobility
I know that this is a niggle but would suggest replacing this with something like 'dominant warrior class'. My issue is that these words have connotations in English that are misleading.
'Military' suggests national armed forces because that is the situation today. The samurai of the Shogunate were a social class. They opposed the very concept of an army and finally lost their power in a civil war against the Japanese army.
'Nobility' suggests titles and powers derived from land ownership. It is true that in the warring states period the people we now call Samurai were armed land owners who fought for Lords. This is analogous to a European knight. But under the Shogunate they defined themselves in contrast to the nobility. They could not own land or inherit powers in their own right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.177.249 (talk) 09:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Sexuality
I find it completely ignorant that there is no section in the article that deals with Samurai sexuality, particularly that of their homosexuality. If there used to be a section on the matter (as the below section on this discussion page points out) and it was removed...then this article is being subject to biased view points and bigotry and that is completely unacceptable. There is much information on samurai sexuality, and for it not to reflect on the Wikipedia article is completely pathetic and misleading. Something has to be done about this. - Hpfan1 (talk) 11:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
- The information you mention was removed because it was poorly referenced and poorly written and seemed to be an attempt to add personal views and or opinions to the article. If there is much information on the subject why not add this information in the correct manner, with valid references. It has been pointed out that there is an article on the subject which could be linked to from the article also but no one has even done that.[[13]] Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 17:15, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
I believe that there should be a part because if I go one here and see women are lowers I want to know if they could escape arranged marriage and be a samurai Sapphire wolf (talk) 00:59, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Homosexuality
If I recall correctly there used to be an article specifically about shudō, but it seems it was removed and shudō made to point to this page. However, the current article has no mention whatsoever shudō/wakashudō/nanshoku.
I’ve moved the redirect to Homosexuality_in_Japan#Ancient_Japan, but in my opinion the Samurai article should at least mention this institution (given its importance in samurai culture).
leoboiko (talk) 22:44, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Add a "see also" link to "Homosexuality_in_Japan#Ancient_Japan" if you think its important enough. Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 02:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Removal of Afro-Samurai
The user Canterbury Tail removed Afro-Samurai's inclusion to the article.
Why is that? If I'm not mistaken, the character is a samurai; and the show is definitely notable.
(I'm looking for a good reason, otherwise there may be an edit war on the rise).
--Joel Lindley (talk) 00:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- My mistake, I didn't pay enough attention and thought it was a vandalism edit and was over quick on the rollback. Sorry about that. Canterbury Tail talk 00:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Heh, heh...No problem dude. In the future, I'll try to log in when I make additions.--Joel Lindley (talk) 00:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:Uybook11.jpg
The image Image:Uybook11.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
- That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
- That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --03:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
LOL...seems someone is trying to f*** up this page. Somehow all the thumbs have turned into porn actress pics.213.89.69.60 (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Bannana?
The article talks about Ieyasu's victory at "bannana". Is this correct? I can't find any reference to it on the web or on the Ieyasu Wikipedia page. If it's vandalism, though, it's been around for a while. I don't really have time to chase it down properly, but I'm sure some of the experts here can check it out quickly! --Slashme (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Zen Differentiated from Buddhism?
In the Philosophy section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai#Philosophy) "Zen" and "Buddhism" are spoken of as being two separate things. However, Zen is most certainly a branch of Mahayana Buddhism. Why is this differentiation made? I am aware of other forms of Buddhism in Japan that have held prominent places, such as Shingon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingon), but at the very least it needs to be made clear if the author is referring to two separate branches of Buddhism, and even then I would be interested to hear why there are two referred to at all, rather than just Zen (or just Buddhism in general, although I think Zen is probably more appropriate in this context). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.202.86 (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. This distinction needs to be removed as Zen is definitely a sub-branch of Buddhism. [2] Znwl (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
References
- ^ Adam Hart-Davis, history the definitive visual guide (London, 2007) p.168
- ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen
Negroid samurai
Negroid Samurai is not described though Western samurai is described. Negroid that the Christian had brought became Samurai. It is existing very famous Negroid Samurai(yasuke) in Japan. He had Takeda clan annihilated with Oda Nobunaga. If the description of Negroid samurai is added, I think that I am glad.(219.160.54.67 (talk) 05:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC))
- There is no evidence that Yasuke was ever made samurai.
Agreed - Yasuke was never described as being 'samurai', it was a military-noble-social class. Simply picking up a sword in japan at time didn't make you one. I recommend the section is deleted.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.183.63.241 (talk) 13:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
vandalism?
"The tanto was a small knife sometimes worn with or instead of the wakizashi in a daishō. The tanto or the wakizashi was used to commit toshiba, a ritualized suicide through disembowelment with wide-screen technology." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.229.149.13 (talk) 17:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Decline- Poorly written
This entire section is written in a way that is highly unbecoming to an encyclopedia article. The last sentence includes a word which lacks an English definition or context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.147.20 (talk) 18:30, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- What section? Canterbury Tail talk 21:34, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. I tried to read it because it sounds interesting, but many sentences - at least to me - make no sense. I recommend that someone with good English knowledge works over this section. I would recommend to keep it, rather than to delete it and take away this special knowledge from all readers. SvenLittkowski (talk) 11:59, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Bushido - did it exist at the time?
"The samurai followed a set of written rules called the Bushidō." But according to the article about Bushido there wasn't any unified code for all samurai, only the "house codes" some daimyos used. The book "Bushido: The Soul of Japan" by Nitobe Inazō who lived in the USA was published 1899 and the last samurai fought in 1877 during the Satsuma Rebellion. Therefore it's impossible that "Bushido" was the set of written rules for samurai. That part of the article is inaccurate.Kuky88 (talk) 09:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Granted, however the term has come to encapsulate the various codes the samurai did follow. I have reworded the sentence to more accurately represent the facts. I now think the Bushido page needs work... Colincbn (talk) 15:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
The article claims that Bushido remained unchanged for many centuries though in other parts claims that the social roles samurai had changed dramatically. Either this is unclear and seemingly contradictory, or the claim (which seems rather idealized) that Bushido was unchanged until 1899 needs a good citation. 13 May 2013 10:50 Eastern Standard (USA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:C052:B2E0:221:FF:FEE7:503E (talk) 14:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see a contradiction. Bushido is a philosophy. The social roles of the samurai could (and did) change, but the philosophy that they lived by remained the same. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Japan can see the future?
How is it something that happened in 663 influenced their actions in 646 ? Or was this more of the usual vandalism from the mainlanders (such as the dog reference on this very talk page)? "Following the Battle of Hakusukinoe against Tang China and Silla in 663 AD that led to Japanese retreat, Japan underwent widespread reform. One of the most important was that of the Taika Reform, issued by Prince Naka no Ōe (Emperor Tenji) in 646 AD." 66.235.15.112 (talk) 07:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I searched through the samurai article in hopes of finding out more about the shaved pates and top-knots that I see in Kurosawa's jidaigeki films. But I had to resort to a few Google searches before I found chonmage. Although that article lacks references, it more or less answered some of my questions. Should this hairstyle be mentioned in the Samurai article? – Kerαunoςcopia◁galaxies 19:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
The Way of Death and Desparateness
From Samurai#Modernization: "By this time, the Way of Death and Desperateness had been eclipsed by a rude awakening in 1853, when Commodore Matthew Perry's massive steamships from the U.S. Navy first imposed broader commerce on the once-dominant national policy of isolationism." I can't find a single mention of this phrase on Google when I eliminate verbatim copies of this article. Check for yourself. Is this vandalism? Or maybe a verbatim translation from Japanese that's not in wide use? In either case it needs a source. I'm removing it until someone can find one. (The prose needs revising anyhow.) — GypsyJiver (drop me a line) 12:45, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
popular culture and gaming
Im sorry but these sections need to be removed, they add no knowledge about the SAMURAI!!!! Just a bunch of trivia and useless information with NO REFERENCES!!...how can you have an article about samurai that does not mention their ARMOR? while half the article is about video games etc!!!Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 16:48, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
References for editors to read!!!
- http://www.archive.org/stream/godsheroesofoldj00pastuoft#page/n5/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/occultjapanorwa00lowegoog#page/n10/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/talesofsamuraist00miyauoft#page/n7/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/agitatedjapanli00satogoog#page/n12/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/kinsshiriakuahi00yamagoog#page/n6/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/firstjapaneseemb00nich#page/n7/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/epochsofchinese01feno#page/n9/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/epochsofchinese02feno#page/n11/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/nohoraccomplish00poungoog#page/n10/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/japaneseswordits00coop#page/n5/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/bamboogarden00unkngoog#page/n9/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/satsumarebellio00moungoog#page/n14/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/lifetoyotomihid00denigoog#page/n5/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/thrillingstories00milliala#page/n15/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/japanesehomesan00morsgoog#page/n4/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/intogoscountrys00schwgoog#page/n6/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/japanesetopsytur00patt#page/n1/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/sketchesjapanes00silvgoog#page/n11/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/mannersandcusto00siebgoog#page/n6/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/bookoftea00okakrich#page/n7/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/kwaidanstoriesa00heargoog#page/n6/mode/2up
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE3mJvsOtk4
- http://www.archive.org/stream/kokorohintsande00heargoog#page/n8/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/saitmusashibben00unkngoog#page/n8/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsand00londgoog#page/n8/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/classicalpoetry00chamgoog#page/n12/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/thingsjapaneseb01chamgoog#page/n6/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsasi25japagoog#page/n4/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/hand00bookofcolloqchamrich#page/n3/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/imperialjapanco01knoxgoog#page/n10/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/sacredbooksearly13hornuoft#page/n11/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/MN40077ucmf_3#page/n5/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/talesoldjapan03unkngoog#page/n7/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/talesoldjapan00mitfgoog#page/n7/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/japanindaysofyor00denirich#page/n5/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/japanindaysyore02denigoog#page/n19/mode/2up
- http://www.archive.org/stream/bushidosouljapa08nitogoog#page/n8/mode/2up
- http://shinseidojo.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/roles-and-techniques-of-the-police-during-the-edo-period-1603-1867-by-dr-kacem-zoughari/
- http://books.google.com/books?id=8n9A-jWUhHMC&pg=PA161&dq=tekken+sword&hl=en&ei=H0wOTY6yGYSKlwfG3ciQDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 19:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Childish "Reviewers"
The Wiki guideline states that unsourced passages will be deleted but when I do that reviewers go berserk and warn me that my IP will be blocked. This whole article is nothing but a spasm of Japanese nationalistic fantasy.
It is simple. If it is controversial the writer needs to come up with a reputable source.
Baiyaan (talk) 19:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)baiyaan
- Please cut and paste the passages you are referring to here so they can be looked at and discussed.
I am willing to take a look to see if you have a point. If the passage is not referenced and there is a dispute you can tag it as unreferenced and ask for opinions here.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 19:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Ok I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and come at this fresh. In looking at the article's history and Baiyaan's talk page I can see a number of issues. One is that Baiyaan is a new editor who obviously does not have a lot of experience with "Wikiculture". This is an issue a lot of new editors bump-up against and there is a large meta-conversation going on right now about how to deal with it. I am surprised that what is obviously a content dispute has been labeled vandalism by some. This is not in any way vandalism, it is a disagreement over content.
- From what I gather Baiyaan's main concern is the wording of a single sentence that to him implies more Japanese influence over Korean politics than the record actually shows. It also seems that without stating the Japanese stance at the time the article becomes less clear as to what was going on. A simple wording change may resolve this. Something like "withdrawal from influencing Korean affairs" or "from attempting to influence" etc. Also Japanese politics certainly has influenced, and been influenced by, Korea since then so a clarification of that may be called for as well. Such as adding "until the Sengoku era" or whatever.
- Also to Baiyaan, One thing you will need to do if you really want to edit WP is learn a bit about the behind the scenes culture here. One needs an enormous amount of patience to work here. Some changes that are blatantly obvious to make may take months to implement if someone does not see eye to eye with you on them. Getting upset will just lead to an edit war and most likely banning. The sad thing is in most of these cases if one or both editors simply worked on the talk page and assumed good faith the problems could be avoided. The amount of damage done to WP based on this sentence not changing for a week, a month, or even a year is infinitesimal compared to the damage done by losing an editor who can add good content. Talk about your issues here and work towards consensus and we will most likely all be better for it. And whatever you do avoid making attacking statements about other editors as this will get the ban hammer dropped faster than just about anything else you can do in a content dispute. Focus on content not contributors. Colincbn (talk) 02:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Colincbn, very well said, I agree with you and I will add that on any disagreement on content getting REFERENCES to back up what you believe will go a long way towards convincing other editors.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 06:33, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I am not going to comment on the content dispute, as it is not really my field, I just watch this page for patrolling purposes. I would just like to make a statement for the record about the vandalism warning on the talk page of Baiyaan that I (among others) posted. Baiyaan deleted the sentence 3 times within a very short period of time the same day without providing any edit summary whatsoever (1, 2, 3). As an experienced vandalfighter I know that unexplained deletions can often be signs of content disputes by novice editors, but 3 times in a row without any edit summary at the time smelled more of vandalism to me, hence the warning. However then Baiyaan started using the edit summary, and I noticed it was a content dispute, so I backtracked and posted a personal comment (that may admittedly have been a bit more bitey than was necessary), providing the editor with hints on how to proceed constructively instead of editwarring. Which at the moment seems to have worked, at least in stopping the edit war, and hopefully the editor will also soon engage in discussion about the disputed sentence on this page. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Though I'm a Japanese editor, I undid Baiyaan's edits as a vandal fighter. Her/his edits were undone by other users as unreferenced. S/he left this message on my talk page. The book is not a RS. It's a mirror book of WP articles. See Books LLC. So I wrote it on her/his talk page. But s/he ignored it and removed the content. So I decided it was vandalism. I have no idea who added the phrase but Baiyaan's removal was baseless. Oda Mari (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think it might be good to review "What vandalism is not" as well as Template:Vandalism_warning_warning. Also on the Rollback page, and most other semi-automated tools pages, the creators of the tools go to great lengths to instruct users not to accuse other editors of vandalism while using them, unless you are 100% sure. Now I am in no way suggesting that anyone was acting in bad faith. I'm just pointing out that it is better to use any other phrase than "Vandal" when dealing with a stubborn editor. Also in the above case baiyaan gave a reason in his summary the first time he made the edit. A simple check of the history shows that. After being reverted he stopped putting them in. I don't think that counts as "no explanation". For the record I think baiyaan has also made some errors of judgement, personal attacks being the worst. I also agree with Oda Mari's and Saddhiyama's reverts, but calling them vandalism is not how I would have handled it.
- Though I'm a Japanese editor, I undid Baiyaan's edits as a vandal fighter. Her/his edits were undone by other users as unreferenced. S/he left this message on my talk page. The book is not a RS. It's a mirror book of WP articles. See Books LLC. So I wrote it on her/his talk page. But s/he ignored it and removed the content. So I decided it was vandalism. I have no idea who added the phrase but Baiyaan's removal was baseless. Oda Mari (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I am not going to comment on the content dispute, as it is not really my field, I just watch this page for patrolling purposes. I would just like to make a statement for the record about the vandalism warning on the talk page of Baiyaan that I (among others) posted. Baiyaan deleted the sentence 3 times within a very short period of time the same day without providing any edit summary whatsoever (1, 2, 3). As an experienced vandalfighter I know that unexplained deletions can often be signs of content disputes by novice editors, but 3 times in a row without any edit summary at the time smelled more of vandalism to me, hence the warning. However then Baiyaan started using the edit summary, and I noticed it was a content dispute, so I backtracked and posted a personal comment (that may admittedly have been a bit more bitey than was necessary), providing the editor with hints on how to proceed constructively instead of editwarring. Which at the moment seems to have worked, at least in stopping the edit war, and hopefully the editor will also soon engage in discussion about the disputed sentence on this page. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Samurai sword classes -- authentic?
There is a class in NYC offering samurai sword techniques, but I'm wondering how it is possible for the school to be authentic, seeing how samurai were abolished in the late 1800s. Can anyone provide some insight? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.148.7 (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
File:Old Japanese military paraphernalia.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Old Japanese military paraphernalia.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 14, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-07-14. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! —howcheng {chat} 16:50, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Two in one
The article seems to be two articles in one. It appears that at some time in the past, an editor came along and wanting to "improve" it, wrote his or her own sections on history, philosophy, etc. without trying to blend it in with existing text. I am initiating the attempt at blending the information, so it may look even worse than usual for awhile, as I first sort, and then move information. Any editor is welcome to contribute to the effort, as the article may be left unattended for short periods while I attend to real life. Boneyard90 (talk) 10:44, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Could someone fix the western samurai section?
It's got a glaring error in the first paragraph, namely: "His estate was valued at 250 koku (measure of the income of the land in rice equal to about five bushels)."
It should be: "His estate was valued at 250 koku (measure of the income of the land then defined as the amount of rice needed to feed one man for one year)." Or, it should just cut out the explanation and just have the link to Koku, as the link should be sufficient, and the correct definition of a Koku already exists further up in the article.
I'd do it myself, but the article is locked at the moment. 72.64.207.226 (talk) 14:57, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
- Done, I removed the bushel section completely with just the koku link. The bushel was fine for a later period, but not for the time period mentioned at the time. Canterbury Tail talk 15:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
"The first foreign samurai" ??
The chapter "The first foreign samurai", which has been recently added by an unregistered user, is totally illegible! The English is so bad that I suspect that the user has translated a Japanese text with Google Translate and is so ignorant in English that he/she didn't see how bad it is. Someone who knows samurai history and the story about the African slave who became a samurai, needs to clean it up. I would if I could, but large parts of the text is absolute gibberish for us outsiders. Thomas Blomberg (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks to the user who deleted 'first foreign samurai' section.
training of the samurai
I could not find the part where it says how samurais were trained so if it is in there can someone tell me where it is. Well i do think it is in the "education" part. -- Annonymus user (talk) 00:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
File:Samurai with sword.jpg to appear as POTD
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Samurai with sword.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on January 17, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-01-17. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:50, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Popular culture
From the article: "George Lucas’ Star Wars series incorporated many aspects from the Seven Samurai film. One example, is that in the Japanese film, seven samurai warriors are hired by local farmers to protect their land from being overrun by bandits; In George Lucas’ Star Wars: A New Hope, a similar situation arises."
Eh? The relevant Kurosawa movie is The Hidden Fortress if anything. Would someone with the permission to edit change this? --Oan (talk) 09:26, 13 April 2015 (UTC)