Talk:Salmon Fletcher Dutton

Notability

• WP:SIRS: Contain significant coverage addressing the subject of the article directly and in depth. Be completely independent of the article subject. Meet the standard for being a reliable source. Regional Audiences are included.

List of secondary sources for Salmon Fletcher Dutton:

1. Monterey County - A tribute to yesterday: the history of Carmel, Carmel Valley, Big Sur, Point Lobos, Carmelite Monastery, and Los Burros by Hale, Sharron Lee
2. Monterey Peninsula - Carmel-by-the-sea By Monica Hudson
3. Cavendish, Vermont - History of Cavendish by the Cavendish Historical Society

Greg Henderson (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion

• Please discuss the inclusion of the following statement:
  • On June 15, 1923, at age 52 years old and retired, Dutton applied for a United States passport to travel by ship on the SS Montlaurier, to explore Great Britain, France, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, and Spain with his son. Their return journey occurred aboard the SS Zeeland, arriving in New York City via Cherbourg, France to on September 9, 1923.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Greghenderson2006 to me, this is both WP:OR and not encyclopedic content. You have a primary source listing that he applied for a passport, something that many people do every day. Then you have details about a holiday (where did they come from?), again something that is a run of the mill occurrence. Why would you think this should be included in an encyclopedia article? Melcous (talk) 21:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

This information qualifies as encyclopedic content due to several reasons. First, the significance of Dutton's retirement on June 15, 1923, at the age of 52 marks a milestone in his life. This event is noteworthy as it represents a specific period when he could embark on a ship voyage alongside his son. Additionally, this data does not fall under the scope of original research as it derives from a credible and published source—specifically, a government-issued passport. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:21, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The AI/LLM checker finds that 92% of Greg's response was written by AI. Netherzone (talk) 06:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Greghenderson2006 this says to me that you still have trouble understanding what a reliable source is. A passport is not "published", it is a primary document. And you using it to make commentary about someone's travels is original research. See WP:REPUTABLE which clearly says This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves.. The fact that you still cannot see this after all the many months of back and forth on similar issues is very troubling. (And I note that you avoided my question about where the additional details came from, again something you have done before when asked direct questions by other editors). Melcous (talk) 06:59, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the March 23, 1923 passport application is a primary source document. It clearly states (no orignal research) that Dutton was retired and traveling with his wife and son to Great Britain, France, Belgium, Italy, etc. This event is noteworthy as it represents a specific period when he was retired and could embark on a ship voyage alongside his wife and son. I understand the secondary sources are important, but WP:PRIMARY sources are original materials that are close to an event. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history. So, do we agree that this is a primary source, which may be used in Wikipeida? Below is a revised statement:

On May 23, 1923, at age 52 years old and retired, Dutton applied for a United States passport to travel by ship on the SS Montlaurier, to explore Great Britain, France, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, and Spain with his wife and son. Their return journey occurred aboard the SS Zeeland, arriving in New York City via Cherbourg, France to on September 9, 1923. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@Melcous and Greghenderson2006:, Greg, it is not the first time we've been over WP:DUE, WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Your personal position on the importance of something is not a relevant factor in including something based on primary source you excavated. It's not that there's any doubt the article subject applied for their passport, but this is not something we include in an encyclopedia. It's not a blog or a diary. Just like there's little doubt people mentioned in something like here were stopped by the police for whatever it is they were accused of. We're not going to include something like someone stole a bottle of whisky from some hole in the wall bar in Carmel-by-the-Sea based on routine report even though there's little doubt such a report was filed. Graywalls (talk)