Talk:Sachertorte

Pictures?

The same picture is used twice on this page, one merely a retouched version of the other. Surely someone must have other example pictures of this delicious food. -Rikoshi (talk) 00:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Note on Translation

Much of this page has been translated from the German version of the Sacher Torte page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HicTamenVivit (talk • contribs) 02:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Bolzano/Bozen

Though minor, I changed the wording in the introduction where Bolzano is mentioned to "Bolzano/Bozen", because South Tyrol, as an autonomous region in Italy with German and Italian as official languages, uses this form in publication for city names. I will try to change that throughout the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mweinshel (talk • contribs) 11:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The reason

3

Nr 1

Nr 2

The original image was the image nr 1, and it was in the article from 12 July 2005 - until June 2011. The same editor who took picture nr 2 removed it June 2011 and repaced it with Nr 2, own work. Now the image was retouched, so it is back again. The second image (Nr 2) shows a picture with a rather lot of whipped cream, slightly messy and the slice of Sachertorte, in a way that the cakes layers are not seen properly, and the cake is almost hidden in between the napkin and the whipped cream. The first image is much better, showing clearly the two layers of chocolate sponge cake with a thin layer of apricot jam in the middle, and the dark chocolate icing on the top with the chocolate stamp, and also shows a better display and looks more luxurious. Also the visual balance is much better in picture nr 1.

Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. The same Editor who took the picture nr 2 was the same, who also initiated the change, and that would be lobbying for own work and own picture, even if I do understand the creators feelings for liking their own pictures, it’s not a good enough reason. But I would be happy to use any picture from this editor, if I am presented with a picture same class as nr 1!! Until then, we leave picture nr 1 in the article. Or, as a compromise, we can use both... But nr 1 has to be in the lead. Added the other one lower down.Hafspajen (talk) 13:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough! When (if) I ever return to Vienna I shall try to take a better picture. --Simfan34 (talk) 16:21, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• Good. Hafspajen (talk) 16:27, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I like the second image better. Gune (talk) 05:34, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

'Well, I like it too, actually. And it is in the article too. Hafspajen (talk) 13:00, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

• It would be great to have a photo of the cake as served at Hotel Sacher, but the cake itself is blurry in the phoo. Replaced. Same problem here, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. The same Editor who took the picture nr 3 was the same, who also initiated the change, and that would be lobbying for own work and own picture and it is NOT better than the lede picture, and sincerely I start to get tired about this fights. Hotel Sacher's "Original Sacher Torte" sold at the the Hotel Sacher, is the picture we will have in the lead. Hafspajen (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I have no interest in fighting. This article does not have to feature my photo if editors decide not to use it, but please remember to WP:AGF about other contributors. The cake in current lede photo is definitely blurry, and I thought I could help. - Illustratedjc (talk) 09:23, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

In that case I am sorry, but still it is best with the Original Torte in the lead. The lead picture should have a picture of the original cake slice. Hafspajen (talk) 11:44, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The 2nd image is better but as long as neither is removed I don't know if it really matters. I will personally undo any edits that remove either image. Gune (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is a photo of the original sacher torte from hotel sacher. Unlike the current image, it's bright and in focus. Can we swap it in, @Hafspajen: ? - Themightyquill (talk) 08:30, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Recipe

I've removed the "The Original recipe obtained through the courtesy of Mrs. Anna Sacher". However good the source may be, Wikipedia is not a recipe book. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:55, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Jewish connection

Sacher family grave, Baden near Vienna, surmounted by a cross

How important is it to the Sachertorte article that Franz Sacher was Jewish? In what sense can we say that the cake was "of Austrian Jewish origin"? Does it have similarities to specifically Jewish Austrian cuisine? Are there any third-party reliable sources that identify it as Austrian Jewish cuisine? The Oxford Companion to Food (OCF), for example, characterizes it as simply "Austrian". Without some solid source, this is just original research. Random blog posts are not RS. Even the cited article in The Forward which mentions that Sacher was Jewish doesn't say that Sachertorte itself is "of Austrian Jewish origin".

The simple fact that its creator was Jewish isn't enough. It would be wrong to describe Google as a "a search engine of Jewish-American origin", 2001: A Space Odyssey as a "a movie of Jewish-American origin", or the theory of relativity as "physics of German-Jewish origin" because their creators were Jewish. It is no less wrong to describe Sachertorte as a "torte of Austrian Jewish origin" without good evidence. It is also inappropriate to mention Sacher's religion/ethnicity in the lead to this article, just as it would be in the other examples I've given.

Is there any evidence that it was widely popular "among those in the Austrian Jewish community" in particular? Is there any evidence that is is more popular in the Austrian Jewish diaspora than among other Austrian emigrants? The OCF simply says that it is popular in "German-speaking countries". The blog post supporting the claim that Sachertorte was a favorite of Freud's also considers Sachertorte "a sign of successful Jewish assimilation par excellence", which argues against its being seen as "Austrian Jewish". But it's a blog post, so can't really be taken as RS either way. --Macrakis (talk) 19:30, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Hello Macrakis. I have just removed the unsourced claim to being a jew in the article Franz Sacher. In fact, Sacher received a catholic funeral, and his family tomb still exists. With a large cross on top. Even if Sacher was born as a jew, and was baptized in his lifetime (I don't believe this), calling him a jew, and coining his cake a jewish cake, is not justified. I will carefully remove the claims to Sacher or Sachertorte as a jewish person or dish. And tomorrow I should have access to Mark Gils Encyclopedia of Jewish Food and put the popularity thing right. As a large number of Austrian and German jews fled to Palestine or the United States in the 1930s, there is a good chance that Sachertorte is really popular in Israel or the NYC jewish community. Just because many jewish refugees kept it as a reminder to their lost Heimat. --Jean-Pierre Chaussette de Fromage (talk) 18:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the well-sourced edit. I wouldn't be surprised that Sachertorte is popular among Jewish emigrés and refugees from Austria -- but is there any evidence that it is more popular among them than among non-Jewish emigrés and refugees from Austria of similar socio-economic background? --Macrakis (talk) 19:33, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

To the question: well, as with other food themes, there isn't plenty of scientific research into the religious and migrant background of Sachertorte consumers around the world. While Kaffeehäuser selling Sachertorte in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv are obviously a Jewish thing, a Kaffeehaus in New York is not necessarily a Jewish institution. I suggest to eat away the whole thing. There is, however, a strong hint to Jewish influence: they use BITTER chocolate for the icing.

Just to put things right: Mark Gils Encyclopedia of Jewish Food tells, in short and without sources, the story of the Jewish apprentice Franz Sacher. The BIG story of the Jewish Sacher family, persecuted by the Nazis, seems to be taken from Sachertorte, the Jewish Masculine Chocolate Cake from Vienna's Lost Coffehouse Past, on Schibboleth, a Vienna-based food blog. Gil is a reputable source. Unfortunately, he died five years ago, and we can't ask him for his sources. Schibboleth is a blog, and per definition (but not per content) a non-reliable-source. On the other side, we have a contemporary funeral notice for a catholic mass, and a family grave on a catholic cemetery. In addition, there is no reliable source for a claim that Sacher family was persecuted by the nazis. In fact, Hotel Sacher went bankrupt and was lost for the family in the early 1930s, with no obvious arization attempt. And even in 1939, at the height of nazi rule, less than a year after the annexion of Austria and a few months after the pogroms of '38, Goebbels allowed the production of Hotel Sacher (film). A rather crude WW1 spy story, located in the Hotel Sacher and giving a favourable picture of Anna Sacher, the wife of Franz' son Eduard. Given the extreme antisemitism of Nazi Germany, that didn't spare catholic converts (Edith Stein), the story of a Jewish Franz Sacher is nothing more than a nice tale. --Jean-Pierre Chaussette de Fromage (talk) 09:44, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

The claim that sachertorte is popular in the "Austrian Jewish diaspora" was footnoted with Marks' Encyclopedia of Jewish Food (with no page number). On page 126 of the Encyclopedia, Marks states that Sacher was Jewish (which is apparently not correct, as he was buried in a Catholic cemetery), but does not say anything about Sachertorte's popularity among Austrian Jews or anyone else. Other claims in the article were referenced to the Schibboleth blog post, which as @Jean-Pierre Chaussette de Fromage: says, is not a WP:RS. So I have removed this material. --Macrakis (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2020 (UTC)