Talk:Søren

Suren vs. Søren

Can we finally stop the shenanigans about cramming the Iranian "Suren"/"Soren" into this page too? They have nothing to do with this page. This is the Søren page, whose sole topic is the Skandinavian name. No reader looking for the Iranian name is ever going to be here. The Iranian name is never spelled with "ø" or "ö". The spelling "Soren", which is the only overlap between the two topics, now has its own, separate disambiguation page, and the first thing that page does for any reader who gets there is to direct them to the two separate name pages for the Skandinanvian Sørens and the Iranian Surens. There are also mutual "see also" links. That's all that's needed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:48, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Hey ☼, first watch your language, do not make it personal! This is just a discussion and if someone wants to deal with your behavior on this, there are names and words to be used. You may have a different view but do not use inappropriate language, anyway that wasn't my job to raise you as a person who deserves to be engaged into a meaningful discussion! Now, back to the topic, can you tell me why there are names (notable) in the page, with the spelling S*o*ren ? This does not match your description. Iranian version is ALSO written as S*o*ren and your way of only raising S*u*ren is misleading. Omidkaveh 19:25, 1 January 2015

Above text also also for Favonian (talk), Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk), LittleWink (talk)), Yngvadottir (talk)) attention. May not be relevant to the core of the discussion and content but I have another simple question, the previous version of the page [1] had its Persian/Iranian name reflection for a long time. I wonder why Fut.Perf. is becoming so sensitive about this page after a simple edit! Omidkaveh 21:50, 1 January 2015

Thanks for finally turning up here at the talkpage. Unfortunately, your posting shows no sign of you having taken in or understood the argument I raised earlier. If you want to discuss things here, it would be better if you tried to actually respond to things other people say. It's not much use otherwise. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:47, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Finally you're engaging! Seems you're not getting the point, The URL for both Iranian (Soren) and Skandinanvian (Søren) goes to the same page! The Iranian name is never spelled with "ø" or "ö"." I say correct! "The spelling "Soren", which is the only overlap between the two topics" I say wrong, the meaning has also similarities, in cases identical! "now has its own, separate disambiguation page" I say good! but I do not understand you making points on S"u"ren. When you highlight that, you mean it as the main one and you started giving others the impression that Suren is the main spelling in Iran which is not! So you do not know the fact but choose the spelling for the title! If we say this is okay, which is not, yet there is another problem. The Skandinanvian Søren has a page which includes spellings as Soren, if this issue is going to be resolved it is by → having a working link as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soren_(given_name) ← with Soren and not Søren for the Iranian name. If you can separate the two then I accept that Iranian name Soren should not be mentioned under the Skandinanvian Søren's page. You may choose to change the link to Skandinanvian_Soren_(given_name) and Persian_Soren_(given_name). Omid (talk) 13:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

@Omidkaveh: I agree that except for Soren Sorensen Adams, whose birth name was Søren, the Sorens should probably be moved from here to the Soren (given name) disambiguation page. However, similar meaning has nothing to do with it; unless you know of a reliable source that the Iranian name is etymologically related to the Scandinavian, it's one of those accidental similarities. On what the main spelling in Persian is, please find us a source. It may be that spelling has changed during the last century. But no, I do not think any of the disambiguation pages should be combined; people will be looking for 3 or 4 different spellings, Soren, Suren, Sören and Søren, and each page should have See also links to the others, but they shouldn't be unnecessarily blended together. That's how disambiguation pages work: they list the possibilities at that spelling and then list other close spellings. Other than that, I'm afraid I don't understand your last point. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

As for the spelling in Persian, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I understand "Soren" and "Suren" aren't even two distinct name variants in Persian itself, but merely two different Latin transliterations of the exact same form (presumably "سورن"). About making yet another disambiguation distinction, between Soren (given name) and Søren (given name), I don't really see a need for that, given that we already have the overarching disambiguation page Soren (which leads off to here and Suren as the two main name groups). For people of European heritage whose first name "Soren" is clearly derived from the Scandinavian, not the Iranian tradition, I don't see why we wouldn't mainly list them here, as in these cases it's clearly just a spelling variant of the same name, just as in the case of the Swedish and German "Sören"s. I'm not so sure about some of the fictional entries though; maybe those should be moved over to "Soren". We could redirect the unused Soren (given name) to the general disambiguation Soren though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:25, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Companies normally choose the names with a lot of cautious. In this link "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKCO_Samand_Soren" you see that the biggest car manufacturing company goes with Soren as the spelling. For exact same spelling check this Google search "https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=soren+site:ir+-ikco+-car". Soren Bolurchi a pop singer, A company named as Soren Sanaat, this has been used to name an algorithm in a research paper ("http://pasargad.cse.shirazu.ac.ir/~aminabbasi/HiPEAC11Soren.pdf"), and many more you may check yourself. You may choose a reliable reference and you see it here: "https://books.google.com.au/books?id=RhHENa0o6zMC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=Soren+Parthian&source=bl&ots=3yvrOVjdbC&sig=QZ5kd0fD32JsA-_x7gQUJErQpHY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9iOmVIfLFs_o8AXE2YHQDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Soren&f=false" , "https://books.google.com.au/books?id=AmcCAAAAMAAJ&q=Soren+Parthian&dq=Soren+Parthian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7CSmVLiyKcjX8gWisYKQBg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCQ" , and more if you search. This is said on the spelling. On the points you're making I refer you to this reference which highlighted the name as Suren ("http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/political_history_parthia.pdf"). On page 41 says "Probably these men belonged to the great families of Iran such as the Surens and Karens." According to your argument then same thing should be applied to Karen! There are huge number of people (way more than what we have in Iran) with the name Karen, so Karen (given name) "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(name)" you see that peacefully the mentioning of Iranian and Armenian names are given in the page. I UNDERSTAND that the spelling Søren with "ø" is Skandinavian (including other European similar variation as Sören) but my point is we MUST have the unused Soren (given name) as a separate page dedicated to those name that are spelled as Soren and NOT Søren. This SHOULD NOT and MUST NOT be treated as disambiguation because it is not and this is clear from your points. So I partially agree with Fut.Perf. but the page should be stand alone and NOT a redirect. Omid (talk) 05:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

By the way, Fut.Perf. you mentioned "Severin" (http://www.rheinische-geschichte.lvr.de/persoenlichkeiten/S/Seiten/Severin.aspx) as the main spelling and origin of the current new spelling of Søren, I hope you and others understand that EXACT SAME standard (from Suren to Surena and Soren) is applied to the Iranian name! I do not really understand why there should not be a separate page for Soren (given name) and it needs, according to how you handled this, a disambiguation page! It is not therefore irrelevant to have the Iranian description under Søren if and only if the page Soren (given name) cannot be created due to similarities in URL with Søren (given name). I hope this I made this clear as much as possible to all of you guys as no reasonable person accepts your reasons on the given privilege (again if the page cannot be created) to the Skandinanvian name! Omid (talk) 13:36, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I might be wrong but I tried and I cannot create a page for Soren (given name). As I said, if this is correct and UNlike what Fut.Perf. said it is NOT unused, then as I said the title HAS TO be changed to S*o*ren and then the Skandinanvian name and Iranian name each have their own space in the page (if the page I mentioned before cannot be created). A reasonable person accepts this as there is absolutely no reason why the privilege should be given to the Skandinanvian name. I hope one of you guys answer to the point I made here or help me create the page, again NOT a disambiguation page. A page with "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soren_(given_name)" as URL. Omid (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I've changed the target of the Soren (given name) redirect to the generic Soren disambiguation page. This way, the reader who looks up "Soren (given name)" will immediately be presented with the choice of whether he is looking for the Scandinavian-tradition "Soren"/"Søren"s or the Iranian-tradition "Soren"/"Suren"s and will then find everything appropriate on one of the two existing "given name" pages. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:07, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

This unfortunately does not work. As I explained to you, the "Soren" or "Søren" has no advantage or disadvantage over each other, they're both given names and must be treated equally. And this is not our job to detect, as you stated here "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Soren_(given_name)&diff=641213766&oldid=640768041", "No advantage of having yet another content page here" to identify advantage or disadvantage of having or not having a page! Page "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Søren_(given_name)" goes directly to the Scandinavian name and equally "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soren_(given_name)" should explain the Iranian one any any other names that is spelled as "Soren". I accept your logic if you make the "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Søren_(given_name)" page ALSO a redirect to the generic Soren disambiguation page! other than that I suspect there is more to this conversation for you other that the accuracy and fairness! Omid (talk) 09:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Three things:

1. Despite all the noise you've been making about that Iranian name, we still have a remarkable lack of concrete evidence that it is in any way common or that it even exists. Apparently we have not a single Wikipedia article on any individual who actually has that name. Apart from a couple of ancient people (the Parthian Surena and two others whose names we have been spelling as "Suren" and "Surin" respectively), we have one 20th-century Tajik guy (spelling "Suren"), and a number of Armenians (all spelled "Suren"; that seems to be reasonably common in Armenia). Not a single Iranian, and not a single one where the article actually uses the "Soren" spelling or where there is any evidence that Romanization is common in English, or that the difference between the two Romanizations is in any way significant. (You do agree that both "Soren" and "Suren" are renderings of the same original "سورن", or do you not?) There are a few more "Soren"s in India, apparently, but I don't even know if their name is in any way related to the Iranian one; it could be yet another entirely separate source, for all we know.
2. Likewise, despite all the noise, you have not yet given any coherent explanation what is wrong with the state of affairs as it was, with two pages (one for the Scandinavians and one for the Iranian name) linked by one common disambiguation page. It may feel obvious to you, but it sure as hell hasn't been obvious to anybody else here. Try again. What information was missing, what reader would not have found what they were looking for? If you can't explain that, there's really no point discussing further with you.
3. You still don't get the main principle about how pages on Wikipedia are structured. This is an encycopedia: our page structuring goes by unity of topic, not by unity of spelling. We treat same things on same pages, and different things on different pages. There are two names at issue here, not three or more: In the Scandinavian/Western context, "Søren", "Sören" and (anglicised) "Soren" are spelling variants of one single name, the one we are treating at "Søren (given name)". In the Iranian/Asian context, "Suren", "Soren" and "Surena" are spelling/transliteration variants of one single name, the one we are treating at "Suren (given name)". The two topics happen to overlap insofar as one spelling variant of each is ambiguous with one of the other. This kind of overlap is what we have disambiguation pages for (the current Soren page). Your solution doesn't work because it artificially splits up the treatment of the single original name Suren/Soren (سورن) into two pages, when in reality they are mere transliteration variants of each other.

This is my last attempt at having a rational discussion with you; if you continue like this, I'll ask an admin to block you again, and I'm pretty certain it will be a longer block this time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Fut.Perf. I answered your questions by answers and raised my opinion, you didn't like it, it's your problem, but that does not make the content less true and this is what I care for. It's very nice that you show your true inside to a wider audience. I think people did not forget your earlier cheap language in beginning the discussion by pointing and the use of abusive and offensive words etc. I forget your threatening language which is an indication of a huge lack of logic and rational and regarding the points you made, I just say that I provided you with enough evidences and one should then decide on the credibility of evidences you or others provided on "Søren". I believe I did provide enough material and references for my logic and do not want to engage in further discussion with you as it seems you are enjoying a questionable relationship with the admin(s) that with such confidence using threatening language. Btw, if one really want to fight for this, you block this username, another one comes after that and then many more beyond that point. So the point is not really the blocking is the offensive and rude language you use in a debate. You even did not tolerate a few days of time for your requested, as you indicate and btw did not use for "Søren", "credible" evidence(s). Therefore, I am convinced this is now personal for you and thus beyond this point you're blind to the points others, including me, may make on this matter. So I thank you Favonian (talk), LittleWink (talk)), Yngvadottir (talk)) and you continue enjoying and satisfying your personal circumstances, one should not disappoint another individual whose behaving such this matter is his/her heart & soul! Omid (talk) 10:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

@Omidkaveh: I don't see a rebuttal to the points made by Future Perfect at Sunrise, nor do I see cheap or abusive language, except in your personalisation here. Please be aware that socking will not be tolerated. Perhaps I am failing to grasp your argument; there are parts of what you say above that I find difficult to understand. No one is seeking to oppress your "heart and soul"; FPaS's logic seems compelling to me, please try again to explain why you think otherwise. Yngvadottir (talk) 13:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Yngvadottir look better you will see threatening language, dig deeper you'll see a few days were given to provide evidence! (even though I have provided evidences before but this is just to show how the system works for that guy). He started this page with "Can we finally stop the shenanigans", he then finish his last comment with threatening of asking for blocking. In a digital world like Wikipedia, this is call threatening, isn't it? If you cannot see that, well then I cannot possibly comment!!! In this very same page, I did explain my points at the very "same level and quality" as evidences provided for the page Søren (given name). As I said (evidences can be seen in this page), this is very well correct that one given name ("Søren") may be used more commonly in one part of the world but this DOES NOT allow that the other name ("Soren") that is used in other parts is treated differently! What I argued based on the evidences that Soren (given name) MUST also like Søren (given name) be a separate page discussing forms of the name that exists in other culture and languages like Persian/Iranian. So if respected admin(s) wants to go ahead with an unfair approach, accepting one as a direct page and the other one as a redirect page, so no one can fight with it, doesn't it? but at the same time, it does not make his/her view a correct one neither, at its very best its a guy with authoritative power deciding on a dispute. S/he might be right might be wrong! I do not see any reason to repeat evidences that provided in this very same page a couple of paragraphs earlier!!! One may prefer to be blind to the provided explanations, so regardless of how you see it, I call it putting "heart and soul" and blocking the logic and rational discussion. By the way, I am kinda very disappointed that a user (doesn't matter who) is able to SO confidently talks about admin blocking someone else. Fut.Perf. did not tell me that I only ask, he said "I'll ask an admin to block you again, and I'm pretty certain it will be a longer block this time." This is to me a corrupted relationship which I by no means want to be engaged in, you're welcome to block, warn, etc, but I leave you guys with one point, irrational is irrational, offensive is offensive, does not matter who says it and in which content it's said! Also to those involved in this discussion to observe the way that this matter is handled! Favonian (talk), LittleWink (talk)) --- Omid (talk) 05:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)