Talk:Revolution of Dignity/Archive 11

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POV claims

Several users such as @Czello: are making a claim that Russia providing a deal for Ukraine is POV. In the wiki article it states that Russia pressured Ukraine not to accept Europe's deal, but this is not why their leadership refused the deal. As many news reports show, they refused it because Russia provided $15 billion and a 1/3rd reduction in gas prices, and without any demands on reforms to tackle corruption.

Russia pressures = not POV. Russia pressures and provides a deal = POV. If your claim is that stating the latter is POV, then justify it.

And if you think this is undue, then that is fine. Remove both of them. However if you want to keep that part, then provide the full story. RBut (talk) 13:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

russian pressure to reject the eu agreement is well cited and directly relevant to the protests, the gas deal just tangential example of this pressure. Further, the whole story is that while ostensibly without conditions teh gas thing was meant to keep Ukraine russia's political economic orbit as the source you cited clearly states—blindlynx 21:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

To all: Events happened 10 years ago are well described in academic sources by historians already.

Andrew Wilson. The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation. — Yale University Press

Serhii Plokhy. The Russo-Ukrainian War: The Return of History. — W. W. Norton & Company

Taras Kuzio. Russian Nationalism and the Russian-Ukrainian War. — Routledge

Use summaries from these and write a paragraph on a subject. No need to use news articles. We can see then what to include in the lead from there. Manyareasexpert (talk) 21:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

By the looks of it to me, Manyareasexpert agrees that there should be a continuation (that Russia simultaneously provided a deal), but sourced from historians. While blindlynx is rejecting that it is relevant, as well as implying that the word "pressure" already encapsulates or contains the deal.

For Manyareasexpert, that is fine with me if you would like another source. But that is no reason to delete the whole addition. Editors should instead, replace it with a better source (I know it was not your doing).

For blindlynx, Russia simultaneously provided an alternative deal. This is a continuation of the point which is as relevant as the pressure part. If you say that one part is not relevant, then you are also implying that the other part is not. You cannot have it both ways. So choose one. RBut (talk) 10:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

RBut, sorry for calling your first edit (of Oct 20) "POV". I misunderstood your edit summary (which was grammatically not correct). While IMHO not POV, it was still against MOS:LEAD (the lead section should summarize the body of the article). Also, I totally agree with Manyareasexpert, while I don't agree with your statement that editors should replace bad sources with better ones. Sources come first, and we don't search for sources for what we want to say, but we follow the (preferably academic) sources. Finally, you should not expect other editors to do or complete your work. I think the "Prelude" section should be reworked in the light of the books mentioned by Manyareasexpert. Of the three books mentioned, I've read only Plokhy's, which I can highly commend. Rsk6400 (talk) 15:51, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Alright, feel free to correct it gramatically or otherwise. As it currently stands, it is "Russia put pressure on Ukraine to reject it. While providing a $15 billion bailout, combined with a 1/3rd reduction in gas prices to fight off Ukraine's economic crisis." RBut (talk) 18:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Please, lets get this done ASAP because of opportunity cost. Whoever has issues with grammar, show what you prefer. As for whether this should be included, it is an integral part of the story. You can see this reflected within the same literature that is cited in the article or in the discussion above: 1. The source used for "Russia put pressure on Ukraine to reject it" further states within the same paragraph that Russia provided a deal (The European Union in Crisis by Dinan Desmond & Nugent Neil). 2. The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation by Andrew Wilson (the book that Manyareasexpert referenced) stated the same. 3. The Russo-Ukrainian War by Serhii Plokhy in (the book that Manyareasexpert referenced and Rsk6400 read) stated the same. 4. Russian Nationalism and the Russian-Ukrainian War is not focused on that aspect. It has little information on it.

1. "The European Union in Crisis" by Dinan Desmond & Nugent Neil: "In August 2013, Russia started to restrict Ukrainian imports, which the Ukrainian opposition immediately described as ‘a trade war to pressure the country against signing a cooperation pact with the European Union’ (Danilova, 2014; see also Pepescu, 2013). In September 2013, the first signs appeared that Yanukovych might give in to the Russian pressure and possibly reject the Association Agreement (House of Lords, 2015: 54–5). What made Yanukovych ultimately do so was allegedly the mismatch between the $15 billion loan to be granted by the International Monetary Fund (IMF), with EU support but also with EU conditions attached, versus a $15 billion loan offered by Russia unconditionally (ibid.: 55). The Russian loan was part of a ‘Ukrainian-Russian Action Plan’, based on a bilateral treaty signed by Yanukovych and Putin in December 2013 (Euronews, 2013). The prospect of this agreement led Yanukovych to abandon the Association Agreement with the EU, which was to have been signed at the European Partnership summit in Vilnius, in November 2013. Yanukovych’s change of heart at the Vilnius summit was the proverbial wake-up call for the EU."

2. "The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation" by Andrew Wilson: "The EU put the agreements on ice and made them conditional; though it was never explicitly stated whether the key condition was Tymoshenko’s release or legal reform to prevent the same thing happening again. (Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili later revealed how Yanukovych would boast in private meetings ‘very loudly about how he had corrupted senior officials, in the supreme court and the constitutional court’.6) By 2013 summer, it seemed the EU was getting confused and/or softening its stance, as it needed a political success at the key Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius in November 2013. Rumours circulated that Tymoshenko’s freedom was no longer a prerequisite. This was bad for Ukraine, threatening as it did to give Yanukovych a free pass to entrench himself further in power. Russia could perhaps have been more relaxed, as it looked as though the agreement might be watered down or take years of implementation. But it reacted instead to the increased possibility of Ukraine’s mere signature, and unleashed a trade war in August, using much bigger sticks and carrots than the EU. Yanukovych was allegedly threatened with the loss of Crimea,7 while a $15 billion loan that was agreed in December, most of the first instalment of which instantly disappeared into the family’s pockets, seems to have been promised in private earlier."

3. "The Russo-Ukrainian War" by Serhii Plokhy: "The EU's principal demand was the continuation of market reforms. That was the tricky part for Yanukovych, who wanted no reforms and was developing a kleptocratic system of rent collection. But he and his entourage hoped to imitate reforms, protect their business interests from Russia, and penetrate European markets. Polls suggested that in the presidential elections scheduled for 2015 Yanukovych would win if he delivered on his promise of bringing Ukraine into association with the EU. Pro-democratic and liberal voters would forgive him the rest.24

Yanukovych vacillated. While the EU was demanding the release of Tymoshenko and reforms, Moscow asked nothing of the sort. But it threatened Yanukovych with an economic blockade if he signed an association agreement with the EU. To show that he meant business, Putin embarked on a limited trade war with Ukraine, barring Ukrainian products from Russia and causing a 10 percent drop in Ukrainian exports. The cost of “tightening up” Russia’s customs regulations was estimated at $1.4 billion. Moscow had not only a stick but also a carrot in its arsenal. Putin offered money if Ukraine did not sign the proposed agreement with the EU: the amount would later be specified as $15 billion, a lifeline for Yanukovych, whose kleptocratic rule had brought Ukraine to the verge of financial collapse. Yanukovych had finally made his choice.25

In November 2013 Yanukovych accepted an invitation to the EU summit in Vilnius, where he was expected to sign the association agreement but abruptly refused to do so. Speaking to his own entourage, he explained the about-face as the result of an exchange with Putin, who had allegedly told him that he would never allow the European Union or NATO to share a border with Russia. If Yanukovych signed the EU agreement, Putin threatened to occupy the Crimea and a good part of southeastern Ukraine, including the Donbas. Yanukovych, visibly shaken, decided to abandon the EU association agreement.26

Yanukovych did not tell his European counterparts about the money that he was getting from Russia. When he visited Putin in Moscow a few weeks later, the Russian president delivered on his promise. He offered his Ukrainian counterpart a discount price on Russian natural gas and a $15 billion loan. “Ukraine,” declared Putin, “is undoubtedly our strategic partner and ally in the full sense of the word.” The Eurasian integration project was alive and well, or so it seemed at the time.27 RBut (talk) 18:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Those are important details worth mentioning in the article body. We will see what will make to the lead after. We can use summary / conclusion chapters from mentioned works. Manyareasexpert (talk) 21:47, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

1. "The European Union in Crisis" by Dinan Desmond & Nugent Neil
These are important details as well worth mentioning in body. What's more important however is Conclusion section starting with The Ukraine crisis originated in the determination of a foreign power,
Russia, not to tolerate an EU foreign policy initiative. Manyareasexpert (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Alright, but I did not come here for this. I read the article, saw a part of the story that was missing, and added in that part to complete the story. The 27th reference (The European Union in Crisis by Dinan Desmond & Nugent Neil) is used to state "Russia put pressure on Ukraine to reject it", it further states within the same paragraph, the $15 billion deal. Since that source is used for the lead, then it must be sufficient to further reference that source within the same paragraph (where it states the deal). Do we have agreement on that? RBut (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The 27th reference (The European Union in Crisis by Dinan Desmond & Nugent Neil) is used to state "Russia put pressure on Ukraine to reject it"
I have my own approach for the lead, which other editors might support, or they might not. It is to look for source's Summary / Conclusion sections for important information worth mentioning in the lead. If we look at Desmond & Nugent work, it talks about
The Ukraine crisis, which erupted in 2014, represents the point at which the aspirations of the EU to extend its influence eastwards collided with Russia’s determination to rebuild power and status following the collapse of the Soviet Union. This keenly felt loss impelled President Vladimir Putin to try to regain control of Russia’s near abroad and restore Russia’s global standing. Putin’s pressure on Ukraine to reject a proposed association agreement with the EU in favour of a Russian-led customs union foundered on popular protest in Kiev, which resulted in the ousting of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president. This, in turn, triggered violent resistance in eastern Ukraine against the new, pro-Western government, and Russia’s annexation of Crimea. Chancellor Merkel took the lead in managing the EU’s response, which helped to bring about a fragile peace – the Minsk Accord – and included sanctions against Russia. The conflict is now frozen, but could escalate at any time. Accordingly, the EU faces instability on its eastern border in addition to the instability caused by the migration crisis on its southern border.
in its Intro section p. 3 . Manyareasexpert (talk) 22:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

2. "The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation" by Andrew Wilson
This is a strong argument as it is a short summary and Wilson finds this detail, along with others, valuable. I suggest expanding article body with it and other details first. For example, beforementioned Desmond & Neil talk about the same amount What made Yanukovych ultimately do so was allegedly the mismatch between the $15 billion loan to be granted by the International Monetary Fund (IMF), with EU support but also with EU conditions attached, versus a $15 billion loan offered by Russia unconditionally (ibid.: 55). offered by IMF, and it's not in our article yet. We can even make a separate chapter "Association Agreement". Manyareasexpert (talk) 22:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

We need to get back to the purpose of this section and dispute. My edit was removed by several editors for being POV, but as shown above with scholarly sources, and I can cite many news sources, that my edit is in line with those sources. Russia did more than pressure Ukraine into refusing EU's deal. They offered their own deal with no strings attached. The source which is referenced to say "Russia put pressure on Ukraine to reject it", within the same paragraph, talks about Russia's deal. Therefore, that second part can be added (which is the part that I added, the part that was then removed by several editors). Do we have agreement on this?

Since some people had issues with my grammar (even though it's almost a copy/paste of the news source), then please fix it. "Russia put pressure on Ukraine to reject it. While providing a $15 billion bailout, combined with a 1/3rd reduction in gas prices to fight off Ukraine's economic crisis." RBut (talk) 06:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree your edit omits details that academic sources supply this information with. For example, Wilson comments Russia could perhaps have been more relaxed, as it looked as though the agreement might be watered down or take years of implementation. But it reacted instead to the increased possibility of Ukraine’s mere signature, and unleashed a trade war in August, using much bigger sticks and carrots than the EU. Yanukovych was allegedly threatened with the loss of Crimea,7 while a $15 billion loan that was agreed in December, most of the first instalment of which instantly disappeared into the family’s pockets, seems to have been promised in private earlier and other details from other sources. I suggest to expand article body first and proceed to the lead after. Manyareasexpert (talk) 10:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

So type out the sentence with the changes to the edit, I have asked people here for this several times. I want to get this done ASAP and leave. If you want to expand the body and then rewrite the lead afterwards, the more power to you. But I am here about the dispute with my edit. RBut (talk) 13:54, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

If nobody wants to collaborate on this, after several days of inaction (told by admin in previous dispute), I am permitted to edit the sentence back in. However if you then remove it again, it is clearly bad faith engagement. So if you have problems with the grammar or details, now is the time to fix it. RBut (talk) 09:21, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

No, that's not how consensus building works. Rsk6400 (talk) 11:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

To rephrase that sentence would take you as long as it did to write the sentence above. Since you mentioned issues with grammar, why not propose the new sentence? RBut (talk) 16:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. We're all volunteers here and do not respond well to being told what to do. As always, The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Generalrelative (talk) 16:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

RBut, please stop edit warring, see WP:EW. It has become a bit difficult to follow this discussion, since you made so many words - better to be concise, see WP:TPG. As I see it, the best idea so far was Manyareasexpert's to re-work the "Prelude" section based on academic sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I concur. Generalrelative (talk) 05:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

My edit was called out for POV, I proved that it wasn't. There is consensus for this point, and the deal I added in is in line with scholarly and news sources, including the very source that is referrenced for the "pressure" part (within the same paragraph of that source, it talks about the deal). Reworking the body is completely irrelevant to this. If you want to re-work the body and then re-edit the lead, that's your perogative. I am not going to do that. So now there has to be a legitimate reason for removing my edit. Removing it for "you must work on the body" is not legitimate. RBut (talk) 12:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

MOS:LEAD says the lead section shall summarize the article. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Have you read this article's prelude section? "...Russia was willing to offer $15 billion,[52] as well as cheaper gas prices.[52]"

And the "Russian involvement" section: "...Yanukovych accepted "bail-out" money—$2 billion out of a $15 billion package—from Russia.[82]" RBut (talk) 13:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

'Pressure' in the lead is enough we don't need to get into every detail of the pressure in the lead—blindlynx 15:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

It is enough. Or maybe it is not. I saw many sources commenting on Russia's "a carrot and a stick" approach. The suggestion is to extend the article body first. Manyareasexpert (talk) 15:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

ahh sorry i misunderstood this discussion as wanting to add it to the lead—blindlynx 15:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

You understood the discussion correctly, see RBut's comment of 12:05, 5 December 2023. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

yes, we're just persuading the editor to take care of article body first. Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@blindlynx This is a point you made at the very beginning which we have moved past long ago. Now where we are at is @Rsk6400 quoting MOS:LEAD (the article should be summarized in the lead), and I quoted the article to show that the deal, which is an integral part of this conflict, is in this wiki article several times. "Pressure" in the lead is absolutely not enough, as that is not why Ukraine's leaders denied EU's deal. By my view, this discussion is over. I have put up a sufficient case and it is time to add my edit back into the article. Those who want to edit the body and then re-edit the lead, please be my guest. You have no resistance or pushback from me. RBut (talk) 16:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Please don't edit war. I'd rather look for agreement between editors. For example, both Wilson and Plokhy agree on
Russia could perhaps have been more relaxed, as it looked as though the agreement might be watered down or take years of implementation. But it reacted instead to the increased possibility of Ukraine’s mere signature, and unleashed a trade war in August, using much bigger sticks and carrots than the EU. Yanukovych was allegedly threatened with the loss of Crimea,7 while a $15 billion loan that was agreed in December, most of the first instalment of which instantly disappeared into the family’s pockets, seems to have been promised in private earlier (Wilson)

To show that he meant business, Putin embarked on a limited trade war with Ukraine, barring Ukrainian products from Russia and causing a 10 percent drop in Ukrainian exports. The cost of “tightening up” Russia’s customs regulations was estimated at $1.4 billion. Moscow had not only a stick but also a carrot in its arsenal. Putin offered money if Ukraine did not sign the proposed agreement with the EU: the amount would later be specified as $15 billion, a lifeline for Yanukovych, whose kleptocratic rule had brought Ukraine to the verge of financial collapse. Yanukovych had finally made his choice (Plokhy) Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

So how would you add that into "Russia pressured Ukraine to reject it, while providing a $15 billion loan and a 1/3rd reduction in gas prices."? RBut (talk) 16:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself: your edit does not make it clear that the air package was part of the pressure moscow was exerting to 'keep Kyiv in its political and economic orbit'—blindlynx 17:04, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The way I see it, their strategy was a multi-pronged approach. They pressured Ukraine's leaders via multiple methods, and said that more would follow, and then offered a sweetheart deal for them (15 billion, 1/3rd reduction in gas prices). If my edit doesn't do so and so, then please, add in those details, or fix the grammar. I am not against that. Why is not a single person here willing to fix the issues they bring up? RBut (talk) 17:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

So, do we have consensus? RBut (talk) 18:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

RBut, please take a look at Generalrelative's comment of 16:02, 30 November 2023. I think that answers the question you repeatedly asked. My message on your user's talk page means that you really should stop edit warring, because continued edit warring can easily lead to being blocked. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@Generalrelative: How can consensus be attained if nobody is interested in that. The attempt above is completely ignored, and the comment by @Rsk6400 right above should be telling. If you look, all concerns have been fulfilled and negated, I welcome changes to grammar, or extra details, but even after all that, if those same people just simply do not care, what you're implying is that all they have to do is never grant consensus and ghost this section? RBut (talk) 14:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest posting at a noticeboard, e.g. WP:NPOVN. Folks here appear (to me) to have addressed your concerns and given you sensible advice which you have chosen not to follow, but fresh eyes may see things differently. Generalrelative (talk) 14:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Are you editors sure you don't want to give consensus for this edit unless I summarize 3 books? RBut (talk) 12:01, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Lead too long, too many paras

As per [1] 'As a general guideline—but not absolute rule—the lead should usually be no longer than four paragraphs. The length of the lead should conform to readers' expectations of a short, but useful and complete, summary of the topic.' Jontel (talk) 07:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is there only one journalist for the "Protest against new government "?

There is only 1 journalist for the "protest against new government section i think there should be multiple or the section should be deleted Rynoip (talk) 23:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

"Ukraine crisis 2014" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Ukraine crisis 2014 has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 21 § Ukraine crisis 2014 until a consensus is reached. Yorkporter (talk) 21:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)