Talk:Raised fist

Power Fist

in lieu of 'raised fist', a more commonly used term for the image/icon/visual-meme would be Power Fist.

and YES, Black Fist & White fist should be merged into subsections of Power Fist

Merger proposal

The articles Black fist, Red fist, and White fist are all closeley related, and small enough to be merged into this article as sections. Their current pages can be replaced with redirects. 97.77.49.174 (talk) 22:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

• I agree that they should be merged, especially since Black fist and White fist have almost no content, now that I deleted unreferenced speculation, redundant wording and off-topic sentences.Spylab (talk)

Article title

I could be mistaken, but isn't raised fist a much more common term than clenched fist when refering to this salute? Perhaps move it to raised fist again. The Ungovernable Force 08:34, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Either way (raised fist or clinched fist) is fine by me. jareha ^(comments) 18:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorta related, but, what does "copyedit" mean, I've seen this term a lot lately. Is it the same as page move or something? The Ungovernable Force 21:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

In short: making improvements to text. I use the term "copyedit" to show I've done my best to bring an article in line with the Wikipedia Manual of Style. jareha ^(comments) 00:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I too think "Raised fist" is a much more common term, and was the name of the article earlier on (when it was still a stub). My problem with the current title is that, well, a fist is, by definition, clenched. That's what makes it a fist rather than an open hand. Can we move this back to raised fist? --Switch 09:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree Immanuel goldstein 09:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, three of four people support the move and none oppose, so I'm asking for a move to raised fist now. --Switch 11:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Clenched fist → Raised fist — "Raised fist" is a much more common term than "clenched fist" for the leftist salute the article is about. Further, a fist is, by definition, clenched. "Clenched fist" is a redundant term and rarer than "raised fist". Switch 11:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Support, obviously, as stated in the proposal. --Switch 11:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support It used to be raised fist then got merged or moved or something. I always thought raised fist was both more common and better sounding but never felt like complaining. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 20:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support Clenched fist is often used to describe nervousness/anger/etc, whereas raised fist is less confusable as the salute. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 21:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Well, there seems to be a pretty clear consensus to move. I'll request a move then, I guess? 100% support seems like a clear result to me. -Switch 17:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• I've moved the page. —Mets501 (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a minute!

This article isn't about raised fists in general, it's about a salute. So shouldn't the title be "raised fist salute"? Tom129.93.17.68 —Preceding comment was added at 20:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The BBC reported that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said of Iran and worries that is attempting to build a nuclear bomb: "It is clear that... Iran has an opportunity to step up and become a productive member of the international community," and "As President Obama said, we are reaching out a hand [to Iran] but the fist has to unclench."

This is a bit confused (who's fist has to unclench?) but it reminded me of a passage in Frederick Forsyth's "The Fist of God":

"The use of the clenched fist [as a threat to punch someone] is not part of Arab culture. In fact it is alien to most cultures except in certain parts of the Far East. [...] The closed-fist punch is very much a West Mediterranean and particularly Anglo-Saxon tradition."

I came to this page to try and ascertain the veracity of Fred's statement, and how widely Hillary Clinton's metaphor would be understood. 79.199.84.63 (talk) 07:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me the article references the graphic of a raised fist more often than a physical salute. Perhaps "Raised fist (symbol)" is a more appropriate title, as the term "symbol" can cover both. DerekMBarnes (talk) 04:51, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________

When returning to the USA from evacuating Vietnam I saw my father in the crowd awaiting us. I gave the raised fist salute and he, a WW2 veteran, returned it immediately.

During parades nowadays and back in "the days" of yore I frequently saw current and ex-military (veterans) "salute" each other using the upraised clench fist.

It appears to be most readily used by blue-collar "working class" folks while those higher up the socio-economic ladder, whether veterans or not, do not appear to use it often.

I am surprised at the lack of mention of my multitude of observations over the decades within this Wiki entry. Obbop (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

-I am surprised in determining whether raised, power, left, right, fist, solute, there is no mention of researching historical use and significance (except brief Greek ref). When I say historical, I'm not talking 1970s. I'm talking about the era of the rise of communism in China, and communism and socialism in Europe. The raised, clenched fist has come back into fashion recently (2016), used by young feminists and wannabe socialists (including U.S.) who have no idea how much blood was shed and oppression occurred under this symbol. To not inform them in this place of all places is a grave disservice and rewrite of history. This is the first time I've posted in Wiki and don't know how it's done, but here is my user name db4635 and date March 2019.Db4635 (talk) 14:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Brown Berets

The Brown Berets also use the raised fist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stuntman crow (talk • contribs) 20:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

_______________________________________________________________

Back in 1971 I was one of very few 'Gringos" who was invited and attended a Brown Beret cell meeting. It was the "old" Brown Berets the FBI attempted to infiltrate with varying levels of success.

Not surprising since the violent take-over of the southwest USA was discussed along with using demographics, the continued invasion of the USA by multi-millions of ahem... "undocumented immigrants," etc.

Assisted via political correctness, the desire of many of the USA ruling elite and much of corporate USA the demographic takeover is succeeding.

I witnessed the use of the raised fist among the Brown berets at that meeting nad elsewhere Obbop (talk) 15:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Left vs. right fist

Is there a difference between a left and right hand salute? The October Revolution poster shows the guy raising his right hand. How can a communist poster use the right hand fist salute? Someone with experience, please explain for the rest of us. Thanks! USchick (talk) 13:17, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Since a clenched fist is a show of strength, I think the traditional fist was a right fist (the stronger hand).

The article says "Since the Trotskyists were forced out of the Comintern, some Trotskyists have made a point of strictly raising the left fist in the tradition of the Left Opposition. Some anarchists also prefer the left fist to denote their libertarian socialist opposition to Marxism."

Both sentences are unsourced, so if you can find support for them, it would be appreciated. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Salute section

It has some sourced material but generally has a disputable narrative - a pastiche of unconnected sources. I particularly tagged the "left fist only" stuff for anarchists and Trotskyistes because it seems more like an urban legend or a localized occurrence rather than a real thing - seen plenty of people from plenty of movements use the left fist. Need to source those and rework section to have a more encyclopedic and less anecdotal narrative. --Cerejota (talk) 01:17, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Forty years ago, as a young leftist, I heard the same nonsense—that leftists use a left fist—and it made no more sense to me then than it does now. More importantly, I've been to plenty of rallies at which leftists have raised their fists, and I think I can count on the fingers of my left hand the number of left fists I've seen over the decades. I agree that it's an urban legend. A right fist is a symbol of strength.

The whole article is horribly undersourced—the list of groups that have used the raised fist is nonsensical, it includes redlinks, it's wholly unsourced, and somebody needs to be bold and take a hatchet to it. And I can't believe that the last comment on this page was mine, more than four years ago. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:21, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Unicode symbol

Why do people keep reverting my edit to add the Unicode symbol ✊ to the article? It's literally in the Unicode standard as "Raised fist". See https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+270A - Hyperlynx2 (talk) 03:17, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

So what? This article is written in English, a spoken and written language, not in emoji or Unicode. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:44, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Because it's useful to be able to express the concept of the raised fist in text by inserting its symbol into text. If the symbol were not useful to express a concept, this entire article wouldn't exist. Furthermore, when searching for "raised fist" in order to find the symbol to use in text, this article is one of the first results. Should I instead add a new section? A component to the infobox? - Hyperlynx2 (talk) 02:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

While we're at it, compare with Rod of Asclepius, which begins:

In Greek mythology, the Rod of Asclepius (Greek: Ράβδος του Ασκληπιού, Rábdos tou Asklipioú; Unicode symbol: ⚕),.

I would therefore change the first paragraph to read

The raised fist, or the clenched fist, (Unicode symbol: ✊), is a symbol of solidarity and support. It is also used as a salute to express unity, strength, defiance, or resistance.

Would that be acceptable? - Hyperlynx2 (talk) 07:00, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Perhaps it's my personal politics, but I find myself using the symbol more and more frequently in communication with other fellow native English speakers, as a symbol of solidarity and resistance against oppression. While English is indeed not a pictographic language, I think that modern communication via the internet frequently includes symbols meant to represent concepts, which are not strictly part of formal English. I postulate that such symbols would not have been deliberately included in the Unicode standard if they were not in use (or intended to be in use) in communication. Otherwise, what would be the point in them being in Unicode at all? - Hyperlynx2 (talk) 05:20, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Well, it's been more than two weeks, and there have been no objections, so I will add my proposed edit. - Hyperlynx2 (talk) 04:26, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I think there's a significant difference between the Rod of Asclepius and a raised fist. The first exists only in symbols—in mythology, in art, or in Unicode—while the second exists in real life and can be created in real life in seconds at the end of practically anybody's arm. I just don't see many Wikipedia articles that include Unicode in the first sentences. ("An umbrella or parasol, U+1F302 🌂 CLOSED UMBRELLA, is a folding canopy supported by wooden or metal ribs")

Please see WP:Conflict resolution if you'd like to seek other editors' opinions. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

An umbrella is not a symbol used to communicate a concept, while the raised fist is. One would not use the umbrella to express a succinct concept to someone else, whereas one would (and I have) used the raised fist in writing to express solidarity and resistance. The entire point of this article is discussing its use as a symbol of resistance, to communicate that concept, including in writing! I must confess to being annoyed that you chose to revert my edit without discussing it here, nor have you discussed most of the points I have raised, despite the significant time elapsed since I first brought it up. - Hyperlynx2 (talk) 05:28, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I was just going to edit it in further down the article, but I see you've already done it. Thanks Malik :). Glad we resolved it. - Hyperlynx2 (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

"Perhaps it's my personal politics, but I find myself using the symbol more and more frequently in communication with other fellow native English speakers, as a symbol of solidarity and resistance against oppression. "

It's definitely your politics bro. I thought it was a knocking emoji. Normal people don't use communist / racist symbols in their text messages. I'm sure national socialists would use swastikas though. But people who aren't political extremists or terrorists tend to refrain from using hate symbols. 124.190.192.20 (talk) 05:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

History: Subheadings?

The history section currently is a single block, which other editors and myself have attempted to mold into a coherent narrative of the gesture/symbol's history. However, I could see the value in subdividing it into sections on distinct eras: possible origins, official symbol (ie German Communist Party, Spanish Civil War), and Black Power movement. This would give the reader a clearer picture at-a-glance and make the article more readable, but may inadvertently suggest that these usages evolved independently.

Alternatively, there is some value in discussing the use of the fist as a gesture vs a symbol. This would require additional sourcing beyond what we have now, and is made difficult by the transfer of one to the other and back again -- which is why I recommend against it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philipthesnowman (talk • contribs) 19:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Black Lives Matter 2020 art.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

"Raised fist (Disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Raised fist (Disambiguation) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 24#Raised fist (Disambiguation) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 08:47, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Add Donald Trump’s use?

In many photos, Trump is using the power fist but this use case is missing and I’m wondering if there’s a reason for that? Lameige (talk) 00:03, 21 June 2023 (UTC)