Talk:Railway war memorials in the United Kingdom

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some examples of memorials[edit]

As pointed out here, "Lambert's Britain's Railways in Wartime (published by Historic England) [...] has a gazetteer of memorials at the back" - see here. Carcharoth (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More examples (some already in article; WWI name totals in square brackets, WW2 less easy to define):

List to be expanded (see section below). Carcharoth (talk) 09:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC) Last updated: Carcharoth (talk) 11:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth, there's a very modern one in St Pancras, Crewe, and I'm sure there's one at Edinburgh Waverley. There are quite a few more obviously. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, quite a few! The Manchester one (which I just added) has 1460 names, which is among the larger ones I think (in terms of names)? Edinburgh one is here, for the North British Railway [775 names]. Glasgow and South Western Railway is here [303 names], and the WW2 memorial (in the same train station) is a separate one here. It is really difficult to know where to draw the line. Some of the smaller ones have sculptural elements, such as the Metropolitan Railway [138 names] one I pointed out earlier, unveiled by Clarendon Hyde, but that is probably still too 'small'. Another 'small' one we have a photo of is 'just' a wooden board at Aberdeen [93 names]. Haig unveiled lots of memorials. Anyway, let's see what seems sensible. Carcharoth (talk) 11:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Has an article" might have to be the line to draw (which would necessitate starting a few for the notable red links but I planned to get to them eventually) but we can see where we get to. Manchester's is definitely notable. We could add Lambert's gazetteer to a further reading section for the full list. Btw, I got my copy on Amazon Marketplace for a lot less than the £50 RRP. It's well worth a read. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I will look out for a cheap copy! I think there is scope for a list, but maybe it will have to be separate (like I did for the Tower Hill memorial ships list). Carcharoth (talk) 12:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Added some name totals in square brackets above. While the numbers have to be handled sensitively, having the numbers there does give an idea of the differences. I hadn't realised that there were so many names on the LNWR memorial at Euston. Is there a source that would confirm that this is the most number of names on a WWI British railway war memorial? It is a significant proportion of the 18,000 to 21,000 figure given in various places. If you add up the ones above 500 in the lists above, you get a total of 17,905 (some are duplicates). If you add the 775 (Edinburgh) and the 303 (Glasgow), you start to get close to 19,000. Do any of the sources address this and give any idea of how much duplication there is (both with some railway companies putting up near-identical copies at different stations, and with maybe some people appearing on more than one memorial if they worked for more than one of the companies)? Are most of the major railway memorials now listed above? Carcharoth (talk) 22:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the railway company listings in the remembrance book published for the 1919 remembrance service, there are two more major memorials, the one to the Caledonian Railway here [704 names] and the one to the Underground Electric Railways of London here [1514 names], which was originally unveiled in 1925 but has since been relocated (see here for a photo in its current location, and here, here and here for the memorial in its previous [original?] location at an earlier point in the history of 55 Broadway). Will add to the list below. I think all the remaining ones in various sources (e.g. Lambert) are all 'smaller' than the ones identified so far. Carcharoth (talk) 20:34, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List (scope and format)[edit]

I am considering a list of railway war memorials. Obvious criteria for scope and format include a section for Boer war memorials, and any separate WW2 memorials (with most WW2 ones being additions to WWI memorials), and a section for miscellanous others. Should the list be part of this article or separate (or a partial list linking to a fuller list)? Some of the more notable memorials could have architects and sculptors identified, plus details of unveiling and any later rededicatons. Nearly all will have photos (though some are lost or have been redeveloped/re-sited). The names of the railway companies is another column, plus 'type' (i.e. sculpture, building, roll of honour) and location. Are there existing lists out there that could be used as a model (and to copy wikicode from)? (I'll continue to add to the list above of examples of memorials that would be most suitable for initial inclusion.) Carcharoth (talk) 09:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth, This was my thought as well, I just haven't got round to it yet. The article isn't even half finished. I just wanted to start something that will eventually draw together all the articles on individual memorials. My thought was that most of the memorials that contain some sculptural or architectural element are probably notable, especially if they're listed, and should be in a list in this article. I'm less sure about how or whether to list all the smaller rolls of honour etc, considering there are over 400 railway memorials. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Like you I hate fiddling with wikicode for lists, but if something gets set up (I might try something soon), shall we add to it, or do you want to discuss a bit more? Agree on the need to limit the scope. The ones I've listed above are the major ones, with some that probably shouldn't be there despite the interesting history (e.g. the Hoxton one). Am completely stumped by why the London Victoria and London Bridge ones are so similar. I may try and see when I last photographed the 'west' one at London Victoria. Carcharoth (talk) 11:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Carcharoth, I'm not fussed what the scope is as long as it's consistent and fairly obvious. By all means make a start if you feel like it. I believe the LBSCR created three (almost?) identical memorials at London Bridge, Victoria, and Brighton. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:54, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That makes sense. The Brighton one is here. Carcharoth (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Draft list[edit]

Name Railway company Image Location War(s) commemorated Date unveiled Type Notes
London and North Western Railway War Memorial London and North Western Railway London Euston First World War 21 October 1921 Monument Architect: Reginald Wynn Owen
Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Midland Railway War Memorial Midland Railway Derby First World War 15 December 1921 Monument Architect: Edwin Lutyens
Unveiled by: Charles Booth
Great Western Railway War Memorial Great Western Railway London Paddington First World War 11 November 1922 Statue Architect: Thomas S. Tait
Sculptor: Charles Sargeant Jagger
Unveiled by: Viscount Churchill
North Eastern Railway War Memorial North Eastern Railway York First World War 14 June 1924 Monument Architect: Edwin Lutyens
Unveiled by: Herbert Plumer
Underground Electric Railways Company of London War Memorial Underground Electric Railways Company of London not on public display
image after unveiling 		Westminster First World War 10 June 1925 Statue and panels Unveiled by: William Robertson
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway War Memorial Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Manchester First World War 14 February 1922 Wall tablet Architect: Henry Shelmerdine
Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Great Central Railway War Memorial Great Central Railway Sheffield First World War 9 August 1922 Monument Architect: Thomas Edward Collcutt
Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Great Eastern Railway War Memorial Great Eastern Railway London Liverpool Street First World War 22 June 1922 Wall tablet Construction: Farmer & Brindley
Unveiled by: Henry Wilson
Great Northern Railway War Memorial Great Northern Railway London Kings Cross First World War 10 June 1920 Wall tablet Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
North British Railway War Memorial North British Railway Edinburgh First World War 12 March 1922 Wall tablet Construction: Charles Henshaw
Unveiled by: Duke of Buccleuch
Caledonian Railway War Memorial Caledonian Railway Glasgow First World War 15 November 1921 Wall tablet Unveiled by: Francis Davies
London and South Western Railway War Memorial London and South Western Railway London Waterloo First World War 21 March 1922 Arch Architect: James Robb Scott
Unveiled by: Queen Mary
Dover Marine War Memorial South Eastern and Chatham Railway Dover First World War 28 October 1922 Statue Sculptor: W. C. H. King
Unveiled by: Cosmo Bonsor
London, Brighton and South Coast Railway War Memorial London, Brighton and South Coast Railway London Bridge station First World War 5 October 1921 Wall tablet Unveiled by: Charles Colin Macrae
Glasgow and South Western Railway War Memorial Glasgow and South Western Railway Ayr First World War 17 February 1922 Wall tablet Designer: Robert Lorimer
Unveiled by: Douglas Haig
Metropolitan Railway War Memorial Metropolitan Railway Baker Street tube station First World War 11 November 1920 Wall tablet Designer: Charles W. Clark
Unveiled by: Clarendon Hyde

Initial attempt at a draft list, with 14 16 memorials. Columns to be added include architects/sculptors and those present at the unveilings. Not sure how to handle the WW2 commemorations, so left those out for now. Carcharoth (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2021 (UTC) UPDATED: Carcharoth (talk) 20:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth, That looks really good. Thank you for putting that together. I'd be inclined to remove the conflict column and put the list in the WWI section in the article, and we could have a dedicated column for the architect/sculptor/artist. If there are enough memorials from other conflicts for a table, we can put them in the relevant sections. Of those in the table that don't have an article, I suspect all are notable enough to sustain one (as is the NLR), with the possible exception of the UERL, which wasn't displayed publicly, so our inclusion criteria could reasonably be that a memorial has an existing article; we'd just have to create some articles as this one developed. I'll have a look and see if there are any more we should include. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:27, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not so sure if they can all sustain articles (but the one at London, Brighton and South Coast Railway War Memorial does now at least have three photos). The UERL one had an associated memorial service in Westminster before its unveiling. I like what they did at Stoke-on-Trent railway station, where an archway memorial was erected (the names are at the bottom of the two columns), though it appears impossible to photograph it without modern railway furniture intruding. I have some extra notes here (essentially surveying the 'smaller' memorials with less names on them, from around 50-200), and I was quite surprised to come across the memorial for the Railway Clearing House (and the concept of a railway clearing house which I was not familiar with) which also wasn't on public display (it was in a recreation room) and sadly is lost, but photos still exist apparently. There were quite a few rolls of honours (by which I mean the lists that include those who served and returned), lots from the GWR in particular. That feels both relevant but also out-of-scope, but would be nice to mention some of these in the article even if they are not in the list (I might try and see what sources are best, unless they are already mentioned in the sources you have). Some of the memorials have had quite a journey. The Hull and Barnsley one went from a railway bridge to a nearby police station to the Hull Archaeology and Transport Museum, to being in storage and is now in the Streetlife Museum of Transport. Sadly, Iridescent's photos from that museum didn't include the memorial! :-) Talking of photos, have a look at the Commons category as quite a few photos added or organised since by me (mostly from Geograph). I do think some mention is needed of the Scottish railway companies (we can easily cover the biggest 5 - the three above and then mention Inverness and Aberdeen) and the Irish ones (again, about 4-5 main companies). Wales is a bit tricker. Only seem to be one or two there, and mostly rolls of honour. I have no idea whether the Cheshire Lines Committee erected a memorial, or whether as a 'joint' railway company their fallen employees were included on one of the larger memorials? Do your sources say anything on this? Carcharoth (talk) 15:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find any evidence of a CLC memorial. I've scoured Lambert's gazetteer and the indexes of all the other books I have on railways in WWI and the CLC only gets the briefest of passing mentions in one of them. A few smaller joint lines erected their own memorial but not many, so I would guess that you're right and they were included on one of the parent companies' memorials. I agree that the Scottish memorials should be mentioned in the text as the article develops. The Highland and North British are both mentioned in Lambert, as are memorials for a couple of small Welsh lines (Barry and Ffestiniog), and a couple in Belfast. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

North London Railway Memorial[edit]

Comprehensive history here of this memorial for the North London Railway. Carcharoth (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth, I came across that while researching the LNWR memorial, though I doubt it would qualify as a reliable source. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great Central Railway War Memorial[edit]

Another account here of the history of this memorial. Carcharoth (talk) 03:33, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rail Industry Memorial[edit]

It covers both peacetime and wartime, but maybe the Rail Industry Memorial (front image, rear image - there are also six badges of rail companies on the ends of the memorial, see the other photos on Commons) at the National Memorial Arboretum, which was dedicated on 22 May 2012, should be mentioned? Carcharoth (talk) 11:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Railway_war_memorials_in_the_United_Kingdom&oldid=1209952126"