Talk:R. D. Laing/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Demons

To me it makes no sense to have a wikilink to the word "demon". "Demon" is used here as a metaphor, and probably should not be used in an encyclopedia to refer to psychological or other personal problems, it's more of a literary and colloquial term. Since the demon article doesn't even discuss the personal problems listed here for Laing, and since there's no quotation from Laing indicating that he thought of these things as demons such that a link to the demon article would be appropriate, there's no justification for the link. I think I will change the article to something like "personal problems" to eliminate this problem. Jeremy J. Shapiro 19:07, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Pov sentence

I changed self-reference and this clearly pov sentence:

He fails, however to get to the bottom of the problem and find a way out for his patients. Freud, by comparison, recognises the repressive effect of society, especially in his later works like 'Civilization and Its Discontents', but seeks to strengthen the patient's ability to cope with this. Neither of these men appeared willing to tackle the issue of good and bad family, or society, nexus.

—Cesar Tort 00:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

in See also

At present, the article reads: 'Mary Barnes - Famous schizophrenic who wrote a book on her experiences with '
With what? Sorry, forgot to sign. --Shirt58 12:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Media Reference?

This episode of 'Waking the Dead', 'Double Bind', makes a few oblique references to RD Laing but veers off into murder and LSD psychotherapy. http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/wakingthedead/episodeguide_series6_story5.shtml

Someone else can be the judge... --Strangelyanonymous (talk) 23:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that the picture at the top purportedly of Laing is actually Laing. He wrote a book called Knots, so it would be a cute play-on-whatever, but I don't think that it's him.

Er... it looks like him facially and matches exactly what his hair looked like at about the phase in his life the photograph would have had to be taken (the pattern of graying and the pattern of balding, compare with the image on Philwebb) and it is claimed it was taken by the uploader in a plausible location where Laing would have been often. Perhaps you could clarify your reasons for thinking it isn't Laing. I never met the man, but the image on wikipedia looks remarkably consistent with every other extant picture of him which I have access to and at the moment your argument would appear to be 'it can't be him because he's reading a book on knots which is something we know he did'. That said, I don't think the picture we have of Alex Jensen is a picture of Alex Jensen, I think if you look closely you'll see it's clearly Robin Williams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.243.176 (talk) 13:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I came to this site seeking information on his theory of knots, so it would be nice if the article addressed this theory also. Thanks71.132.132.0 (talk) 08:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Anti-psychiatrist

This article claims that Laing was not anti-psychiatrist. I would like to know why is his name in the "Anti-Psychiatry" article?

This is how Anti-psychiatry is described on Wikipedia:

"Anti-psychiatry refers to a post-1960s configuration of groups and theoretical constructs hostile to most of the fundamental assumptions and practices of psychiatry. Its igniting influences were Michel Foucault, R.D.Laing and Thomas Szasz."

How can it be that such different authors such as Michel Foucault, R.D.Laing and Thomas Szasz are being put on the same level?

This is completely wrong and the article is a total nonsense.--Justana (talk) 11:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

"Anti-psychiatry" is a great example of one POV becoming an ideology: anti-psychiatry was David Cooper's term (c. 1967) in opposition to standard, established psychiatry. People like Foucault & Szasz were opposing psychiatry long before 1967. The term was picked up by the media (in an "anti"-all sorts of stuff era), including respectable medical journals, & turned into a "movement." The article may be total nonsense, but the sad fact remains that Laing & the others are considered to be part of that anti-psychiatry movement. You may know better, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to (autorhythm). BubbleDine (talk) 15:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Schizophrenia or schizoid not mentioned once in this article

Very strange. --Penbat (talk) 11:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Psychiatric diagnosis

I added material on Laing's view of the psychiatric diagnosis, content of which I took from his "The Politics of the Family and Other Essays." Laing defined the medical model as "that set of procedures in which all doctors are trained." I am implying that the popular shibboleth that mental illness is just like any other disease is a logical fallacy, because it isn't diagnosed in the same manner as other diseases.

The conduct or behavior that gets one into trouble or diagnosed is the product of & changes with social circumstances: one may have good days when friends & family are compassionate & respectful; diabetes, tuberculosis, & compound fractures do not improve (or regress) because one's family & friends are one day concilliatory & compassionate. That mental illness (bipolar disorder, schizophrenia) is popularly thought to be just like other illnesses has to do only with the fact that they are medically treated; mental illness remains the only medical malady that is diagnosed solely on the basis of conduct. 138.162.128.43 12:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

This is an important discussion. I think Laing took too polarized a view in contributing to our understanding on this issue, or at least those who followed Laing interpreted him in too polarized a way. Physical, mental and social health states are inter-related and should not be artificially separated along professional, departmental or business lines. Physical examination and laboratory tests do in fact contribute to diagnosing some mental health states. A diagnostician should not rely only on conduct to diagnose psychological symptoms. Hence the importance of collaborative teams that can sort out all the possibilities when helping a person. That said, after several decades I am a bit closer to contributing to a statement about Laing's view of the medical model, but still not ready to put keyboard to page.Thinkingabout (talk) 09:56, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Medical model

Laing is credited with first use of the term "medical model" by some (see his 1969 lecture where he discussed the concept). Whether this is true or not, he is certainly at the historical center of that much-misused concept. The June 09 2010 Wikipedia version contains these difficult sentences: "Laing was a critic of psychiatric diagnosis, arguing that diagnosis of a mental disorder contradicted accepted medical procedure: diagnosis was made on the basis of behavior or conduct, and examination and ancillary tests that traditionally precede diagnosis of viable pathologies like broken bones or pneumonia occurred after (if at all) the diagnosis of mental disorder. Hence, according to Laing, psychiatry was founded on a false epistemology: illness diagnosed by conduct but treated biologically. The fact that medical doctors had annexed mental disorders did not mean they were practicing medicine; hence, the popular term "medical model of mental illness" is oxymoronic, since, according to Laing, diagnosis of mental illness did not follow the traditional medical model. The notion that biological psychiatry is a real science or a genuine branch of medicine has been challenged by other critics as well." The logic here seems muddled to me, and I think needs further revision. Thinkingabout (talk) 09:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Educational Setback

I've added the fact that he failed his medical exams on first attempt. I do not have the exact citation for this at present (save for a few websites which can be googled) but it is detailed in Adrian Laing's biography which is already listed as a source on the page. You can of course change the wording, but I think it is very important to have this fact included, as the information that he was not a particularly competent student counts against the attempt to paint him as some kind of medical visionary overthrowing the profession from within which I see from a lot of people with anti-psychiatric bias and which seems... occasionally hinted at within this article. So; my motives for adding it are not NPOV but I think it counteracts a non-NPOV bias in its omission. It is true, succinct information about Laing which some readers (here I use myself as an example) might consider relevant in forming an impression about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.243.176 (talk) 13:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Laing wote in his memoir that he failed his medical boards the first time thru. BubbleDine (talk) 14:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Laing was the youngest consultant in the country at one point, when his son qualified in law he was one of the youngest in the 20th century I believe.Overagainst (talk) 20:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

References

I've added the request for more references. In particular it seels to me that the sections on his views on mental illness are nor referenced. It would be good to have something more on opposing views. The only link is internal to "critics" but not to critics of Laing. Perhaps the article should get labelled fro NPOV.

LookingGlass 17:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed "Significant critiques of his ideas have been published by contemporary psychiatric authorities", as it is referenced only to the Communist Peter Sedgwick, who is hardly a psychiatric authority. The book referenced, Psycho Politics, is a critique on Laing insofar as his construal of mental illness is "politically correct" and may be used to reduce public funding of psychiatric care. It's a critique pertaining to political strategy, not a psychiatric critique. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.19.140 (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Works

On Mental Illness

I've removed the sentence "This was consistent with the critique of the validity of "value judgements" prevalent in Western society, which was common amongst academics in the 1960s and 1970s (for example, the views of Michel Foucault)" because it has no relevance to the preceding sentences. It should be excluded, just as the fact that the preceding sentences are consistent with 2+2=4 should be excluded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.19.140 (talk) 18:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Basket case

My recollection is that Laing was a total basket case in the decade before he died. I'm not sure where one would get WP:RS for that, but something more than his suffering from depression depression needs saying. Mish (talk) 23:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Is the article correct to say he was not suffering from anything in the year before his death then? Or is that inaccurate?Topgunn9 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

unfit for combat

The only combat at the time would have been the Korean war, and the troop commitment there was not huge, so the likelihood of being sent was correspondingly smaller than in would have been in World War II. The point is that though WW II was over, national service, as it was called (conscription) was still in effect. What Laing did was his National Service, and as a university graduate with a medical degree he was unlikely ever to have served as an infantryman. I would suggest that the sentence needs to be rewritten with these facts in mind, perhaps even with a link to "conscription in the United Kingdom," which has some relevant information.Theonemacduff (talk) 06:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Axel Jensen

The newly added bit about Axel Jensen seems like a stuck-on fact that doesn't contribute anything important to understanding Laing and seems out of balance in his short biography. Seems to me like it should be taken out. What's the argument for keeping it in? Jeremy J. Shapiro 07:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

The argument could be that they were very close friends and that Axel Jensen mentions 'Ronny' in several of his books. Also Laing and Kingsley Hall is mentioned in the biography of Axel Jensen as a great help for him in a period of depression. Perhaps this fact could be added to the biography part, self-motivating its presence? We could also presume that the short biography of Laing will be lengthened subsequently, and that this merely is a part of a final result.--Profero 12:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the 2002 Livet sett fra Nimbus ("Life Seen From Nimbus") his autobiography, written in cooperation with Petter Mejlænder (Spartacus Publishing) could be used as a source. The friendship between the two is mentioned at Axel Jensen's article. Jensen even worked as an assistant at Kingsley Hall. Also - the lede image for this article File:Ronald D. Laing.jpg is of Laing on board his ship. the source info says: "Photo: Robert E. Haraldsen This picture was taken in Stockholm on board the Norwegian author Axel Jensen's ship Shanti Devi in 1983. The Ashley Book of Knots was given wittily to Laing by Jensen as a gift. Uploaded with special permission by the photographer, a friend of them both." Martinevans123 (talk) 23:54, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

The only web source for the autobiography I can find is here. But my Norwegian is not good enough to know for sure what is supported by the text. And I can only see those extracts. There does not seem to be a English language edition of the book. So I guess someone who can read Norwegian would have to confirm. The articles at no.wiki and sv.wiki don't have any sources either. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:32, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Following our discussion at your Talk Page, I have added what you suggested with the book as the source. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:51, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

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Early Childhood

Why is there no reference to his childhood other than his existentialist reading list? I've read certain accounts detailing his father's violent outbursts and his mothers' compulsive behaviour. I don't have the knowledge to write a section on it, but maybe someone should because if such events did occur, they would definitely have affected his later life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.35.4.130 (talk) 22:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The article does now say that Laing's dad came to blows with his brother. Vorbee (talk) 17:48, 30 December 2017 (UTC)