Talk:Prisoners of the 2019–2021 Chilean protests

This article was nominated for deletion on 5 July 2021. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Renaming[edit]

I have renamed the article to the current title, Prisoners of the 2019–21 Chilean protests (maybe should be Prisoners of the 2019–2021 Chilean protests), since the article is introduced as such, and has been for several weeks now. Additionally, the name "Prisoners of the revolt" may be non neutral. --Kuatrero (talk) 03:35, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dentren: Instead of reporting me at ANI, you should have come here and discuss the matter. You are welcome to bring up ideas and talk here. --Kuatrero (talk) 15:04, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't try to be ingenious here. You know the rules and you know you should have never done any of your unilateral moves of this article. I will continue to report your behaviour whenever it goes against the rules of Wikipedia. Dentren | ^Talk 16:09, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of course not, Dentren. You know there should have been discussion, when there wasn't. Anyway, I've requested the move formally, just below. --Kuatrero (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see you are now abiding by normal procedures when attempting to move articles. Keep doing so and restrain yourself from any further disruptive non-consensual moves. Dentren | ^Talk 17:30, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please respect Wikipedia policies such as Wikipedia:Etiquette. --Kuatrero (talk) 17:32, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Etiquette is to follow normal procedures Kuatrero. Dentren | ^Talk 17:35, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Remember the Golden Rule: Treat others the way you would want to be treated.". Taking it to ANI without making the least effort to solve the problem otherwise, for example discussing it here (this thread was started before that thread at ANI) is unkind, to say the least. Kind regards. --Kuatrero (talk) 17:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 August 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) Muhibm0307 (talk) 04:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prisoners of the Revolt → Prisoners of the 2019–2021 Chilean protests – The current title may be biased (it is only used by some left-wing groups and politicians, as supported on the article itself). Wikipedia aims to be neutral and so it should use a neutral name. The "Revolt" refers to the 2019-2021 Chilean protests, and so, it should be renamed as such. Furthermore, the article's lede has been introduced for several weeks now as "Prisoners of the 2019-2021 Chilean protests" instead of the biased "Prisoners of the Revolt". Kuatrero (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have to add, the name "Prisoners of the Revolt" (in English, as it is) is only used by counted reliable sources. There are some publications such as this one which refer them to as "political prisoners of the October revolt" (referring to the 2019–2021 Chilean protests as 'October revolt' — should that article be renamed accordingly? Perhaps not). A Cuban news site dubs them as "political prisoners of the revolt". A dubiously reliable news site also dubs them prisoners of the revolt. An anarchist group of Biobío Region also calls them "prisoners of the revolt" [1].

However, most sources only call them "prisoners" (in several forms, see [2]).

And the list could go on and on and on. --Kuatrero (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: The name is also used by right-wing media and policians. Can Kuatrero or someone else actually provide some proof that the name would be non-neutral? Also, the issue has been previously discussed here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prisoners of the Revolt. I can repeat here some of the arguments given there: Pretending to delete this article because it is not neutral would be like deleting Neoliberalism because it is not a fully neutral term (market liberals and much of the Worldwide right reject the label "neoliberal"). It makes no sense to adduce to a supposed non-neutrality of the term when the term is already in wide circulation among mass media. Let me remind you all that the common Spanish name for the 2019–2021 Chilean protests, Estallido Social can also be seen as originally "left-wing" and just like Presos de la Revuelta it diffused becoming the standard term. At the end of the day widespread use triumphs non-neutral origin (WP:Non-neutral but common names). Dentren | ^Talk 16:07, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There was no consensus to delete, but neither to keep it. Anyway, it's still here and there was no such renaming discussion, but there were several people who commented it should be merged or renamed. For instance, user MarshalN20 proposes renaming it to the title I propose, adding "I would recommend a renaming of the article to more clearly identify what it is about." James2813 commented: "as "Prisioners of the Revolt" is a name that's used by a specific political group to express a specific political opinion over this theme, I think we should add the information in the protest's article under a more neutral name (e.g., "Controversy about alleged political prisioners")". They added: "The sole use of this name as common denotes a political position". AdoTang said: "Article also seems pretty slanted against the Chilean government, though I don't know much about the politics there to know whether that's a good thing to me or not; regardless, that's POV." It seems to me there was some kind of consensus against the current naming of the article, although that was not the point of discussion (whether it had to be deleted or merged). I invite mentioned users @MarshalN20: @James2813: and @AdoTang:, if they wish to comment here. There should be no fear to discuss! --Kuatrero (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the 'estallido social' naming of the Spanish-language article, I am not against it because it is not non-neutral. However, there is no translation to English and it is not referred to in English as "estallido social" or "social outbreak" or whatever you would translate it into. Furthermore, the article is named here "2019-2021 Chilean protests", not "Estallido social" (it is named that way in Spanish, and as I have said, I'm not against it because it does not denote a position in the matter). --Kuatrero (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please also note WP:CRITERIA: "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject". No reliable sources call these prisoners the "prisoners of the revolt" in English. Kuatrero (talk) 17:01, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In Spanish, there is not a widespread use of the term "prisioneros / presos de la revuelta". For instance, just today, CNN Chile calls them "detenidos del estallido" ([3]) , a name also used by La Tercera, El Mostrador, Radio UChile (which, for the sake of veracity, has published some op-eds using the "presos de la revuelta" name [4], but that doesn't mean it approves of such denomination). --Kuatrero (talk) 19:37, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Also "the Revolt" is pretty vague, and the new title is more specific to someone who has no prior knowledge of the happenings in Chile. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 13:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. current title fails WP:TITLE in spades. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:02, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but not because the title is non-neutral. It's just not clear what "revolt" this is referring to, so the proposed change provides that needed clarity. If in the future some other title becomes more prominent then this can be changed again. Titles are not always permanent.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 23:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.