Talk:Philippe I, Duke of Orléans/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Ruby2010 (talk) 19:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Some comments:

  • The lead should be expanded and split up into multiple paragraphs for easier reading. The lead you have now is much too compact for Good Article status.
  • I don't think you need to say "unknown painter" in the infobox picture's caption.
  • Footnotes always go after punctuation, not before. (example: The flower is green.<footnote>
  • "The founder of the House of Orléans, his only surviving son being Philippe d'Orléans, Regent of France for the infant Louis XV." Awkward sentence. Maybe change being -> became?
  • I don't think you need citations in the lead, unless they are covering potentially controversial pieces of information. All of the lead information is already cited in the article's body.
  • "His varied ancestry caused his older cousin, the Duchess of Montpensier, to dub him the "prettiest child in the world"[9]" Are you saying his diverse ancestry was the reason he was the "prettiest child..."? What does this mean? Is this the reason why the Duchess is commenting?
  • Philippe I, Duke of Orléans#Le Petit Monsieur
    • Wikilink Louis XIV of France and Queen Anne
    • "Power thus rested with Anne and she was in full control of the country as well as of her children, something she had been vying for since their birth." Awkward sentence, rewrite.
    • "It was not till 1660 at the death of Gaston that Philippe would be known simply as Monsieur or as the Duke of Orléans[10]." till -> until.
    • "Reportedly, Cardinal Mazarin even arranged for the de-flowering of Philippe at the hands of his own nephew[12][13]." What are you trying to say here? That Mazarin's nephew took Philippe's virginity?
    • "Aged 7, in autumn 1647, Philippe caught smallpox but recovered and convalesced at the Palais Royal." Awkward sentance. How about: At the age of 7 in the autumn of 1647, Philippe caught...
    • "A year later, he was taken from the care of woman" woman -> women.
    • "Despite having a household of his own, his behavior was closely watched by his mother and Mazarin, who made sure Philippe had no meaningful financial freedom from the crown" Add punctuation at end of this sentence.
    • "When Philippe was 8, the Fronde began, a civil war in France in two main parts called the Fronde Parlementaire (1648–1649) and the Fronde des nobles (1650–1653). During the latter, Philippe, his mother and brother had to flee Paris on the night of 9 February 1651[18] for the safety of Saint Germaine[19] from the attack by the French nobility on the Palais Royal aimed at Mazarin." Awkward paragraph. Consider rewriting.
    • "Peace having returned in 1652, the decision was made for Philippe to now move his household to the Palais des Tuileries, previous residence of Mademoiselle and situated next to the Palais Royal[20]. " Who is Mademoiselle? She has not been identified yet.
    • "The next year at the coronation of his brother at the Cathedral of Reims on 7 June 1654 it was the thirteen year old Philippe who acted as dean placing the crown of France on his brother's head. All his life, Philippe would be a noted lover of etiquette and all things ceremonial ensuring that all details of which were adhered to[21]." Awkward two sentences. Consider rewriting/rewording.
    • "Louis having recovered, Mazarin opened negotiations with Queen Anne's native Spain as well as the court of Savoy." Negotiations for what? Marriage? A treaty? This needs to be expanded.
    • "Around the same time, Philippe met Armand de Gramont the Count of Guiche who was a notorious playboy and noted gallant. Philippe was infatuated with the famously arrogant Guiche who was exiled from the court by Mazarin. At the same time, rumours at court stated that Philippe in fact had a mistress[26] and had showed an interest in the Duchess of Mercoeur, Mazarin's own niece and mother of Louis Joseph, Duke of Vendôme, later a successful soldier and notable homosexual of the era[27]. Another lover of Philippe at the time was Antoine Coiffier, the marquis d'Effiat. The latter had entered Philippe's life as the capitaine des chasses and stayed in his household till Philippe's death[28].
    • Philippe's love scandal having died down the court paid attention to the marriage of the king. Mazarin had opened correspondence with Queen Anne's brother, relations with whom were fragile due to the Franco-Spanish War. The resulting Treaty of the Pyrenees[29] ended the war and was cemented with the marriage of Louis XIV and Philip IV's daughter the Maria Teresa of Austria. They were married on 9 June 1660[29] at Saint-Jean-de-Luz. With Louis married, Queen Anne began to turn her attention to the marriage of Philippe." These two paragraphs need work. Notably, better punctuation and editing. I don't think you need to mention Louis Joseph at all unless it related directly to Philippe. You can merge the two sentences about Antoine Coiffier.
    • "Instead Philippe would marry another first cousin in the form of Princess Henrietta of England, youngest child of the executed Charles I of England and his wife Queen Henrietta Maria. The latter was a member of the French court and lived at the Palais Royal from 1652 till her daughters marriage[37]." Avoid using "would marry". Try Instead Philippe married another first cousin, Princess Henrietta of England, the youngest child... You also need to clarify that last sentence. I think you're trying to say Queen Henrietta Maria was living at the French court (presumably because her husband had been executed) until her daughter's marriage. The sentence you have now just looks odd, so consider editing it.
    • "Henrietta born in Exeter was given the name Anne in honour of Queen Anne and had lived in France since the age of 2 having been smuggled out of England by the Countess of Morton[38]. Henrietta lived with her mother Queen Henrietta Maria at the Palais Royal and at the Louvre. She visited England late in 1660 to visit her sister the Princess of Orange[39] who later caught smallpox and died. The French court officially asked for Henrietta's hand on 22 November 1660 while in England[40]. Major grammatical errors, and needs editing.
    • "Minette's very open flirting is said to have caused a jealous Philippe to retaliate by beginning to openly flaunt his sexuality in an age which was not as accepting[44]." When what was not as accepting? His affairs with men?
    • "Later in March of the same year, Philippe became a father, Minette giving birth to a daughter who was later named Marie Louise. The disappointment of Minette was great and upon finding out that the child was female, she remarked that she should "throw her into the river!"[47] which greatly offended Queen Anne who adored her first granddaughter[48]. In 1665, Guiche left the court with Philippe reporting to Queen Anne that Minette had had private interviews with the dashing nobleman; Guiche left on the pretext of offending the king and was thus exiled[49]." These sentences need rewording. How about: Later in March of that year, Minette gave birth to a daughter, later called Marie Louise. Minette was greatly disappointed upon finding out the child was female, and remarked that she should "throw her into the river!", to the great offense of Queen, who adored her first granddaughter.
    • "This death only augmented the court's grief as they were still in mourning for the death of Queen Anne of Austria, of breast cancer in January[55]." Queen Anne of Austria -> Queen Anne (you have been referring to her as Queen Anne the entire article; a casual viewed might not know who Queen Anne of Austria is. Also, might be good to remind the reader that Anne is Philippe's mother.
    • "In the year 1668 Philippe met the future love of his life. Philippe de Lorraine known as the Chevalier de Lorraine was a member of the House of Lorraine and had the rank of Foreign Prince at the French court, his cousin being the ruling Duke of Lorraine." Maybe mention this later when/if you mention Philippe de Lorraine again. If he is not mentioned elsewhere in the article, I recommend deleting this paragraph.
    • "In 1667, Philippe took part in the War of Devolution in order to appear like his grandfather Henry IV[56] on the battlefield; "Follow me to the camp and you will see how well I can fight"[56]." Clarify what you mean here. You imply Philippe only took part in the war in order to appear like his grandfather. What Henry IV known for the battlefield? I recommend expanding further.
    • "While on the field, Philippe took an active part within the trenches at Tournai and Douay and had distinguished himself by his valour and coolness under fire[56]. However, Philippe, later bored of the field became more interested in the decoration of his tent. Hearing of Minette being ill due to a miscarriage, he returned to Saint Cloud where she was recovering from an ordeal which almost costing her her life[57]. However at her recovery, Philippe returned to the siege of Lille and further distinguished himself[58]." More grammar and structural issues. Rewrite these sentences.
    • "But by February Philippe's protests and pleas persuaded the King to restore him to his brother's entourage." him -> the Chevalier for better comprehension.
    • "Present were King king, Queen Marie Thérèse, Monseigneur le Dauphin and Mademoiselle the latter pair acting as godparents. When Queen Henriette Marie, died, Princess Anne of England came to live with Philippe and Minette leaving at Minette's death." More errors here that need to be addressed.
    • The three paragraphs concerning Minette's death can be rewritten and merged into one or two.
    • Philippe I, Duke of Orléans#"A vacant place":
      • It might be useful to wikilink Mademoiselle every time you refer to her. This will make it easier for the reader.
      • Merge the first two paragraphs together in this section.
      • Why is Sophia of Hanover in italics?
    • "Philippe married a newly converted Roman Catholic[66] on 16 November 1671[74]." Reword.
    • In the paragraph about their births, add wikilinks to his children with Lisolette, if there are any.
    • "Despite having no more children, Liselotte was praised as being a good and natural mother[78]." Clarify. You are implying the small number of children meant she would not normally be a good mother??
    • "Liselotte acted as a mother to Philippe's children by Minette and maintained correspondence with the two their last days. Marie Louise however would always be Philippe's favourite child. In 1680, the Chevalier de Lorraine was again caught in a sex scandal this time with the Count of Vermandois, Louis XIV's own son by Louise de La Vallière. Vermandois died in exile but the Chevalier stayed[79]. The Prince of Conti was also involved[80].'"" Combine these two paragraphs. Both are too small by themselves.
    • "However in 1674 and 1678 he had gone to the field as a volunteer." This needs clarification He wasn't a volunteer before??.
    • "The most dazzling victory Philippe carried out was on 11 April 1677 at the Battle of Cassel against William III of Orange[81], the son his own first cousin, the dead Princess of Orange." the son his own first cousin, the dead Princess of Orange -> his first cousin once removed
    • "Philippe, who learned his way, went to meet them..." Learned the way?
    • presumanbly -> presumably
    • Note: Your paragraph on the Battle of Cassel is much better than others. Consider using this as a model for the rest of the article (i.e. paragraph size etc.)

88"Philippe's famous victory at Cassel was the be the termination of his military career..." Grammatical error.

    • "Barnabite college -> Barnabite College
    • "Regarding the battle, Philippe was noted as having showed "much valor"[11] as noted by Saint-Simon." Needs rewording.
    • "Having always been unable to attend meetings of state unless unimportant..." Reword. I think you are trying to say Philippe was unable to attend meetings of state unless they were unimportant.
    • "The gardens were replanned by André Le Nôtre evidence of which can still be seen today. " Add punctuation.
    • Your section Cultural expansion and property seems to contain a lot of trivia. I would recommend you keeping everything in a concise order. For instance, "At the time of Philippe's death in 1701 the estate of Saint Cloud numbered some 1200 acres" should be moved elsewhere in the section.
    • "Saint Cloud was the home of Philippe's household as well as a royal residence. The château was where his children Anne Marie (1669), Philippe (1674) and Élisabeth Charlotte (1676) were born. The château played host to Louis XIV at the death of Queen Marie Thérèse in 1683 before he moved to Fontainebleau[96]." Needs severe editing. I would recommend you move it to the section on the birth of his children, or rephrase it and merge it with another paragraph.
    • I don't think you need full sections on his children Marie Louise and Philippe. I recommend delete them and add some of their content into other sections/paragraphs.
    • "In 1696 Philippe's grand daughter Maria Adelaide, eldest child of Anne Marie came to the French court for her marriage to the Duke of Burgundy who was third in line to the throne[116]. The two were married in 1697 and were the parents of Louis XV[117]." This information can be deleted/moved into another paragraph. It does not merit its own paragraph.


My conclusion[edit]

Keep in mind this is only my second GA review, so I encourage other editors to add any comments if they have one.

I know my comments look like a lot, but they were all help make this article better. You have too many small paragraphs that either need to be expanded, merged into others, or deleted. While the article has a lot of good content, I cannot recommend it for GA status until my concerns are addressed above. I realize English is not your first language, so I would recommend this article get looked at by a native English speaker to ensure that it flows correctly. Thanks. Ruby2010 (talk) 19:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    This article will be on hold for a minimum of seven days waiting for the above issue to be resolved.
    Ruby2010 (talk) 20:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Has everything been addressed? Been a month since the review and it looks like at least most has. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 16:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't think the concerns I stated above have been addressed yet. Until then, it cannot be moved to GA status. Frania also brought up some good improvements. On 16 September, LouisPhilippeCharles wrote this on my wall: "Anyway, I'll let you know when he is finished as, naturally, I would much appreciate your input". As I have had no subsequent response letting me know that the article is finished (and it does not appear finished to me), its status will remain the same. Does anyone know how long a GA nominee is allowed to sit awaiting improvements? I'm not sure. Thanks, Ruby2010 (talk) 20:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It varies based on the reviewer. Personally, if there hasn't been work past a week or two, that's grounds for failing it for me. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll post a warning on his talkpage giving him a few days to fix the article, or it will be failed. Does that sound alright? Ruby2010 (talk) 03:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I left a note on his wall telling him he has three days to improve the article, or it will be failed. Thanks, Ruby2010 (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Final verdict: , as it was not improved on, though the reviewer was given ample time to do so. Ruby2010 (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

In spite of the improvements brought since it had been put up for GA nomination, the article still needs quite a bit of editing: misspelling, peacock words, sentences difficult to read, unnecessary details on other wikilinked personages... and the fact that about 75% is a spread on his homosexuality and the homosexuality of others, such as Lully, whose article it is not.
in lead:
  • ...was the famous Louis XIV
  • openly homosexual
in "Birth & ancestry":
  • Château de Saint Germain en Laye in the town of Saint Germain en Laye, France: obviously the Château de Saint-Germain-en-Laye is not in Marseille, then again "France"?
  • As such, he ranked immediately behind his older brother Louis, Dauphin of France. From birth, he was second in line to the throne of France: if he ranks immediately behind the Dauphin, does not that mean that he is second in line?
in "Le Petit Monsieur":
  • At the death of his father in May 1643, his older brother succeeded him as Louis XIV of France. sounds as if his older brother succeeded "him", "him" being Philippe.
  • in female attire or dressed as a shepherdess: is not a shepherdess a female?
  • Reportedly, Cardinal Mazarin even arranged for the de-flowering of Philippe at the hands of his own nephew: the "deflowering at the hands of" (?) kind of bring a chuckle...
  • 11 May 1648, he carried out his first official ceremony when he was baptised publicly at the Palais Royal: an explanation is needed since he was already baptised the day he was born.
  • flee Paris on the night of 9 February 1651 for Saint Germaine: "Saint Germaine" or "Saint-Germain-en-Laye"?
  • Philippe's sexuality came into question in 1658 when court gossip said that Mazarin's own nephew the Philippe Jules Mancini, the Duke of Nevers, had in fact been the "first to [have] coruppted" Philippe in what was called the vice italien – contemporary slang for homosexuality.: aside from the sentence itself, "vice italien" is not "contemporary slang", it simply meant, in proper French, homosexuality.
  • . After Louis' illness, Philippe was once again left to his own devices.: meaning what?
  • He immediately began to organise improvements to what was then a small villa. Around the same time, Philippe met Armand de Gramont the Count of Guiche who was a notorious playboy and noted gallant. Philippe was infatuated with the famously arrogant Guiche who was exiled from the court by Mazarin. At the same time, rumours at court stated that Philippe in fact had a mistress and had showed an interest in the Duchess of Mercoeur, Mazarin's own niece and mother of Louis Joseph, Duke of Vendôme, later a successful soldier and notable homosexual of the era. Another lover of Philippe at the time was Antoine Coiffier, the marquis d'Effiat. The latter had entered Philippe's life as the capitaine des chasses and stayed in his household till Philippe's death.: text goes from the purchase of Saint-Cloud to "notorious playboy, noted gallant... famously arrogant Guiche...", then jumps to the son of the niece of Mazarin, "the Duke of Vendôme, who later was a successful soldier and notable homosexual of the era"
in "Marriage with Minette":
  • Philippe had previously been encouraged to court his older cousin Anne Marie Louise d'Orléans, eldest daughter of Gaston and his first wife Marie de Bourbon. Known as Mademoiselle she had an immense private fortune and had previously rejected suitors such as Charles II of England[32].: Anne Marie Louise d'Orléans, daughter of "Le Grand Monsieur" was not known as "Mademoiselle", but as "La Grande Mademoiselle", and that is how she should be referred to in article.
  • Instead Philippe would marry another first cousin in the form of Princess Henrietta of England,...: "in the form of..." ?
  • ... Queen Henrietta Maria. The latter was a member of the French court and lived at the Palais Royal from 1652 till her daughters marriage[35].: as the youngest daughter of King Henry IV of France, would not Henrietta Maria be a member of the French royal family instead of the "French court"?
  • Henrietta born in Exeter was given the name Anne in honour of Queen Anne and had lived in France since the age of 2 having been smuggled out of England by the Countess of Morton. Henrietta lived with her mother Queen Henrietta Maria at the Palais Royal and at the Louvre. She visited England late in 1660 to visit her sister the Princess of Orange who later caught smallpox and died.: is not this going a bit too far into the life/history of Henrietta & her sister the Princess of Orange who later caught smallpox & died, since they both have their own article?
  • huge 840,000 Livres: no need for "huge"
  • Known as Henriette d'Angleterre in France, and Minette to her intimates, she was known as officially as Madame and was ever popular with the court and had many admirers. Court gossip later said that the king was the father of Minette's first child. Minette's very open flirting is said to have caused a jealous Philippe to retaliate by beginning to openly flaunt his sexuality in an age which was not as accepting.: it's all about Minette & Louis XIV.
  • In 1665, Guiche left the court with Philippe reporting to Queen Anne that Minette had had private interviews with the dashing nobleman; Guiche left on the pretext of offending the king and was thus exiled[48].: this is more on the "dashing nobleman" Guiche & Minette = even if true, it is on the level of gossip.
  • Despite the annual celebrations at court, the ducal couple would not have another child till 1664...: ? what is the relationship between annual celebrations & a pregnancy ?
  • This death only augmented the court's grief as they were still in mourning for the death of Queen Anne of Austria, of breast cancer in January.: why mention Queen Anne's breast cancer?
  • In the year 1668 Philippe met the future love of his life. Philippe de Lorraine known as the Chevalier de Lorraine was a member of the House of Lorraine and had the rank of Foreign Prince at the French court, his cousin being the ruling Duke of Lorraine.: why mention the Duke of Lorraine because he was the cousin of Philippe's future lover?
  • Minette stayed at Saint Cloud as she was again in the state of pregnancy...: again too much about Minette to the end of paragraph.
  • Minette is best known for her part in the Secret Treaty of Dover..., which begins last paragraph of section is all about Minette.
in "A vacant place", last paragraph:
  • Liselotte's father, Charles I Louis, an impoverished German prince... is way off subject.
in "Marriage with Liselotte":
  • Liselotte was not attractive like Minette had been.: necessary?
  • Philippe's only surviving son Philippe would later serve as Regent of France during the minority of Louis XV. Philippe married Françoise Marie de Bourbon, Légitimée de France, a daughter of Louis XIV and his mistress Madame de Montespan.: why bring the marriage of his son to a légitimée de France etc. when people mentioned are linked to their own article?
  • In 1680, the Chevalier de Lorraine was again caught in a sex scandal this time with the Count of Vermandois, Louis XIV's own son by Louise de La Vallière. Vermandois died in exile but the Chevalier stayed. The Prince of Conti was also involved.: what does this have to do in article (not a novel) on Philippe d'Orléans?
in "The Battle of Cassel":
  • The most dazzling victory Philippe carried out was on 11 April 1677 at the Battle of Cassel...: tthe whole paragraph is difficult to read, and "dazzling" is a peacock word.
  • Saint-Simon later said that Philippe had showed "much valor"[9] as noted by Saint-Simon.
in "Cultural expansion and property", many digressions, such as:
  • Saint Cloud remained with the Orléans till 1785 when Philippe's great grandson Louis Philippe d'Orléans sold it to Marie Antoinette, Philippe's great grand daughter, for the sum of 6 million Livres.
  • Lully, another homosexual...
in "Later years, death and burial", the whole section has to be redone:
  • At the death of Mademoiselle in April 1693, she made Philippe her main heir.[98] From her death, Philippe became the Duke of Montpensier, Châtellerault, Saint-Fargeau and Beaupréau.: both sentences grammatically incorrect.
  • Chartres not having an appointment caused bitter anger both father and son the latter of which had been under close scrutiny from Louis XIV having paraded his mistress Mademoiselle de Séry in view of his wife. and following sentence to be reworded.
  • The widowed Liselotte continued to write to her daughter, stepdaughter, and her the Duchess of Modena. Liselotte herself died at Saint Cloud in December 1722. She too was buried at Saint Denis. The Chevalier de Lorraine died in 1703 impoverished.: sentence not necessary.
--Frania W. (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Wikipedia I seem to remember this page containing a list of all Philippe's titles eg. Duke of Orleans, Prince of Joinville, and all the things he inherited from La Grande Mademoiselle. I see there is a description of titles he acquired in one of the sections but would it not be appropriate to list all his titles at the beginning? I think that is a good idea for all articles on nobility like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.35.218 (talk) 00:18, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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