Talk:Pablo Casals/Archive 1

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Name move?

I just reverted a unilateral move of the article from "Pablo" to "Pau". Personally I am fine with either title, but please let us have some discussion and consensus first. A note to those suggesting that "Pablo" is only the imposition of the Franco Fascist dictatorship, that he lived his later life elsewhere-- "Pau" was not illegal in Puerto Rico or other countries where he was still commonly billed as "Pablo". However if someone could please quote Casals' OWN WORDS stating he wished to be known as "Pau", that would probably make a strong case -- Infrogmation 18:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Infrogmation, in 1972, Pau Casals and his wife Marta created the Pau Casals Foundation for the purpose of bequeathing to Catalonia the whole legacy the maestro had conserved in the house in Sant Salvador. The people of Catalonia were to be the guardians of that heritage.Which is the name that he puts for the foundation? He is very expensive, Pau Casals Foundation! The link at this article, in english. Link to the oficial heritage of Pau Casals, the Pau Casals Fundation, in Catalan, English, Spanish and French. Link to the original letter of Pau Casals, signed by Pau Casals. Pau Casals was a fighterof the peace. It always liked him to say Peace, Peace and Peace, and he explained that this was the way of his life to the same as that of his name (his name, Pau, means Peace in catalan) -- Abat sise 13:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________________

I don't know if it's possible to quote him asking to be called by his name, maybe he wasn't relly bothered with the name "Pablo"... However, what he said infront of the United Nations will give you a general idea about his point of view: Words of gratitude pronouced by Pau Casals in front of the United Nations Assembly when he was awarded the Medal of Peace on the 24th of October of 1971:

"This is the greatest honour I have ever received in my life. Peace has always been my greatest concern. Yet in my childhood I learned to love it. My mother—an exceptional, brilliant woman—used to speak to me about it when I was still a child, because in those years there were also a lot of wars. Moreover, I am Catalan. Catalonia had the first democratic Parliament much before than England. And it was in my country where there was a beginning of united nations. At that time—the eleventh Century—they met in Toluges—today in France—to speak about peace, because the Catalonian people of that time were already against war. That is why, the United Nations, which work only for the ideal of peace, are in my hearth, because everything relating to peace goes directly there. "I have not played the cello in front of an audience since long years but I think I must do it this time. I am going to play a melody from the Catalonian folklore: The singing of the Birds. Birds, when in the sky, go singing: Peace, peace, peace. And this is a melody that Bach, Beethoven and all great people would have admired and loved. And, in addition, it springs up from the soul of my country: Catalonia."

As you can see, he claims to be Catalan several times. He also says that Catalonia is his county, not Spain. Because of that we can esaly asume that he would like to be called by the Catalan form of Pablo (Pau). You can also see that he was a peace lover and Pau, in Catalan, means "peace" ("Pablo" doesen't mean nothing in any language). (unsigned comment by User:Great mike)

Note: please sign your discussion comments. (Just put 4 tildes ~ in a row at the end of a discussion comment and your user name and time of comment will be added automatically.) Your statement is poetic, but rather than "asume" we try to go for evidence. Eg, if no statement in his own words can be found, how did he sign his name, if the letters of the first name are legible? How was he billed when performing in nations other than Spain under Franco? Legal documents-- contracts, passport? -- Infrogmation 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Legal documents -- contracts, passport. Could the editors post here some documents that credited him as Pablo Casals?


A letter signed by "Pau" Casals: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exipc.jpg --reventlov

First of all, let me apologise for editing the main page without reading the discussion above. It was such a clear thing for me that I couldn't think there would ever be such a discussion.
Let's go to the facts. There are two things being discussed here:
1) Casals Catalan vs Spanish, and
2) Pau vs. Pablo.
Let's try to shed some light on these.
1) The first point is clear: Casals was both, Spanish and Catalan. He was born (and lived for many years) in a state called Spain, so he's Spanish. No doubt. However, he was born (and grew up) in a region which some centuries ago was independent from the rest of Spain, with some different traditions and culture: Catalonia. So, because of this, he also was Catalan, no doubt of this either. There's a point: obviously not all Spanish people are Catalan, but also not al Catalan people are Spanish, since the historical Catalonia extended e.g. to the South of France. So, it should always be said that he was Catalan and Spanish.
But being isn't the same as feeling. Did Casals felt more Catalan than Spanish? I haven't read his memories, so I am not an authority on that, but from his UN speech it seems he felt Catalan. The quotes in the Pau Casals Foundation website also suggest that: “This house is the expression and synthesis of my life as a Catalan and an artist”, etc.
2) His name was Pau. I think everybody agrees on this: he signed Pau (jpg above), he called his foundation "Pau Casals", etc. On the other hand, I can accept he was called Pablo by many people, so I understand the "Pablo" appearing in the article. However, I wouldn't say "commonly known as" but "also known as", since I think this would better fit the reality: some of us knew him as Pau, others as Pablo, but we cannot survey the world population to know which of the two forms is more used.
Other things I think should be changed are:
- The page title: I think it should be "Pau Casals" (like in the first sentence of the article), and have the "Pablo Casals" article redirect to here.
- The disambiguation page only presents "Pablo", that's really strange for me. I think the disambiguation page should be complete and have both "Pau" and "Pablo".
- The "Pablo Casals Cello Foundation" that appears in the text should be cited as its true name, "Pau Casals Foundation" (I believe the registered one is "Fundació Pau Casals", but they also translate the "Fundació" to "Foundation" at their website). Notice no "Cello" in the name: the foundation runs both cello fellowships and activities and Casals' museum.
Just a final comment: it's funny seing so much discussion in the English page about Pau Casals, when in the Spanish page (where politics and language matters about topics like that could be more passionate and even violent) there's no discussion at all, and everybody agrees on "Catalan" and "Pau".Ripero 01:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Pau Casals signs as Pau, not Pablo (see the jpg above). Pau Casals declares himself Catalan, not Spanish. Catalan and Spanish Wikipedias say "Pau Casals", not "Pablo Casals". Therefore, I think that the most appropiate name for the article is Pau Casals, and a redirection from Pablo to Pau, not the opposite.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 19:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If it's a Catalan name it should be written the Catalan way and "Pablo Casals" to be a redirection page. -- Magioladitis 23:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I've started looking in to this a little bit and am starting to come to a different conclusion based on material I've seen from when he was alive. I recently saw a signed photograph by Casals-- it is clearly signed "Pablo". I can place a copy of this on line for reference if you have any doubt. In the USA there is absolutely no legal restrictions nor presure against Catalan names; he could have called himself "Pau" if he chose. His recordings from when he was alive in the USA and Latin America are listed as "Pablo", and I have read a number of articles and interviews from when he was alive refering to him simply as "Pablo". I am starting to suspect that the campaign to remove any reference to him as "Pablo" is something from after he died, not necessarily going along with anything he insisted on himself. I also note that a google seach with the word "cellist" (to get English language results) shows 162,000 hits for "Pablo Casals" and 11,400 hits for "Pau Casals". I therefore suggest that "Pablo Casals" is the name he is most commonly known by in English. Googling simply "Pau Casals" gets 345,000 hits; while 549,000 for "Pablo Casals", suggesting it is more common even not considering language. I suspect that "Pablo Casals" was the name he commonly used internationally. I am therefore leaning towards leaving it "Pablo" for much the same reason that we have the article on the fellow born Ehrich Weiss at Harry Houdini or the many other examples where the article is at the name they were most commonly known by professionally rather than their birth name. Respectfully, -- Infrogmation 01:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


Could you post the link with the photograph in which appears the name Pablo? I saw and it was manipulated with a Photoshop or similar. Then with an exhaustive search, I could see the REAL name written by him. The letter is in that address: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exilar.htm Search by PAU CASALS. ( link: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exipc.jpg ) Inforgmation, are you afraid because his real name wasn't pablo? could you show to us evidences that the name he prefered was pablo?

PS: The link with (I assume) your photograph http://www.grafologianet.com.ar/Firmas.htm It is clearly manipulated with a computer program. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.32.241 (talk)

Style and Musicianship

Someone with some expertise and knowledge about Cello performance really ought to initiate a section on Casals's distinctive playing style. After all, this is what made him great. I'm a pianist, and I don't feel qualified even to start such a section, but an article on arguably the greatest cellist of the twentieth century ought to explicate what it was that accounted for his prominence. 66.108.4.183 (talk) 00:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC) Allen Roth


His name wasn't Pablo but Pau

His name wasn't Pablo but Pau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!--81.36.195.183 (talk) 19:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Read the previous discussions about it and The Wikipedia naming conventions. His Catalan name is Pau, but he's known in English as Pablo. If you have sources (per the naming conventions) that prove that he should be named Pau here, please present them. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

-- I'm from El Vendrell, Pau Casals' hometown and resting place. Everybody here, as well in all Catalonia, call him Pau Casals. It's obvious for me that he was officially spanish, but he was also catalan, and I'm sure (read his speech at UN) he felt his nation was Catalonia. It's also obvious his name was Pau Casals. Oh, please! Franco forbid using catalan names, and that was one of the things Pau fought the most. I will go to the graveyard to take and upload a photo of his tomb, where you can read "Pau Casals". Also here there is the house where hi born, the house where hi lived, mouseums... Everywhere he is called Pau Casals. Neutral politics have nothing to do with this. The fact that we (catalans) feel bad about this doesn't mean it's not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.225.182.144 (talk) 13:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the conventions but it is so sad to translate person's names like this.--80.37.230.224 (talk) 07:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Casals and United Nations

The passions raised by the question of language are no excuse for descalificaciones here at Wikipedia, or anywhere else, for that matter. So please respect the conventions of polite debate. And sign your contributions.

Not only do I defend, politely, the right to use “minority” languages, but I have long been a fan of Casals and first came across the name Pau when I came to live here in Spain. All other references, recordings, etc., that I have use the name Pablo. As has been mentioned here, he had plenty of opportunity, living outside Spain, to choose the name by which he wanted to be known, and the evidence points to the name Pablo. As Infrogmation repeatedly states, if there is referenced evidence to the contrary, please post it here.

It is perfectly clear that the English language edition of Wikipedia needs to use the English-language version of somebody’s name, if one exists, because it would otherwise be impossible for anybody not knowing the birth name to find out any information about said person. If relevant, and referenced, there is plenty of space in the body of the article to include other versions, including foreign-language spellings, etc.

Just so that what I mean is perfectly clear to everyone, a person born in China, for example, would have his or her name here at the English-language edition of Wikipedia in English or nearest equivalent. In the English-speaking world, Casals was known as Pablo. In his Catalunya natal, he is/was known as Pau.

But just to check, I took up the suggestion of one of the most aggressive contributors to this discussion page - and wishing to be neutral, chose only the surname - and Googled the following at 18:30 (local Spanish time) today: Casals AND United Nations http://www.google.es/search?q=casals+AND+United+Nations&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&client=firefox-a.

Sorry again, but I'm unable to see the name Pablo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The first page to appear is the Spanish-version of the United Nations Radio website http://www.un.org/radio/es/6567.asp which refers to Pablo Casals.

Sorry the UN radio return a PAGE NOT FOUND, maybe due to it was Pau Casals?

The second page to appear is the following English-language fact sheet posted by the Public Inquiries Unit, Department of Public Information, United Nations and reads as follows (being only a fact sheet, they obviously state that it is not an official UN document):

Not an official document.
For information only.

August 2005

Does the UN have a hymn or national anthem? Though many songs have been written about the United Nations or on related themes, there is no official anthem or hymn for the Organization. One such song, or hymn, was written and performed at the United Nations on 24 October 1971, on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the United Nations, by Maestro Pablo Casals of Spain. The words were written by poet W.H. Auden of the United Kingdom. The two, though they had never met, were brought together in this unusual collaboration by then United Nations Secretary-General U Thant. For centuries, poets and musicians have sung in praise of war and celebrated victories in battles. U Thant was intrigued by the fact that there existed no hymn to peace. Pablo Casals was a personal friend of his, and when approached by U Thant, he readily agreed to write the music. As the Secretary-General explained, the song was to be based on the preamble to the Charter of the United Nations. Although it would not be formally adopted as the official anthem of the United Nations, U Thant hoped it would be performed on appropriate occasions. While Casals greatly liked the ideas contained in the preamble, there was no way he could put music to such a document. The task to write an appropriate poem, based on the theme of peace and ideals enshrined in the preamble, fell on W.H. Auden, then regarded as the greatest living English poet. When a representative of the Secretary-General approached the poet, he immediately agreed to write the poem. In three days’ time, Auden finished writing A hymn to the UN, which was then set to music by Casals. On 24 October 1971, the Orchestra of the Festival Casals, with the Maestro himself as conductor, presented the hymn in a première performance at UN headquarters. A Hymn to the UN Music: Pablo Casals Words: W.H. Auden
(There follows the lyrics to the anthem)
This fact sheet has been issued by the Public Inquiries Unit, Department of Public Information, United Nations.

The 3rd page to appear is an English-language blog, called “Catalonia the next state”: http://cataloniathenextstate.blogspot.com/2007/05/pau-casals-special-concert-at-united.html which refers to Pau (and is a version of the Wikipedia article).
--Technopat (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Conservatory

I don’t speak Spanish, but “Conservatory de Musica y Declamacion” doesn’t look right. Conservatory de ...? Wouldn’t it be something like Conservatorio? And doesn’t Declamacion have an accent on the o? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Casals a citizen from Puerto Rico?

Here's a question: did Pablo/Pau Casals obtained the Puerto Rican nationality while living there? If he did, it should be noted in the bio section and if he didn't then categories such as "People from San Juan, Puerto Rico", "Puerto Rican classical cellists" and "Puerto Rican-Spaniards" should be removed. Please provide sources. Statemens without reputable and verifiable sources are worth nothing here. Cheers!! --Karljoos (talk) 16:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The only information we have is that he lived in Puerto Rico, but the nationallity isn't mentioned in our work. If there is no information the categories should be removed, he was only catalan.

PS:Moved to Pau because of the talk section efore.--Ssola (talk) 16:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "Puerto Rico Citizenship". Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the United States of America. All Puerto Ricans have only American citizenship, even if they wanted a "Puerto Rican citizenship", they can't have it because it DOESN'T EXIST.--


You have moved it without seeking consensus - and after your previous request to move it was turned down. As has been explained to you time and time again, Wikipedia naming conventions are clear in that the article has to be named following the easiest route to finding it. Want some more examples? Mick Jagger is the name of the article. Whatever his name was at birth, and whatever explanations and details and justifications are given in the article, the name for the article is NOT Michael Jagger - a search using that name will redirect.--Technopat (talk) 17:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I think the search engine test has been made in consensus to see what is the most commonly used name in the language, isn't it? The google resarches I did were 'only in english pages and show perfectly the results. Finally, I should say you have done your reversion without any consensus like me... Any reason for not reverting you?--Ssola (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I hadn't seen this till just now, or I would have replied sooner. Your edit was reverted as per Wikipedia MoS guidelines and the fact that any major edit - especially if potentially controversial - must be made following consensus. By the way, consensus at Wikipedia does not mean a majority imposing their views on a minority, but to seriously engaging in rational arguments leading to a good article. It does not mean edit-warring, so in answer to your question, I'm sure that is why you hadn't reverted my revert :) --Technopat (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

J! I just asked if there was any source clearly indicating that Pablo/Pau Casals, who did live in Puerto Rico, became legally a citizen of Puerto Rico (=obtained the nationality/passport or otherwise was legally granted Puerto Rican status). Please do provide sources, otherwise he should be called a “Spanish-Catalan” (Spanish for legal status of those who have Spanish nationality and Catalan for cultural origin). Please I do not wish to engage in another absurd dispute between Spanish Spaniards and Catalan Spaniards. I am just asking about PUERTO RICO. Thank you. --Karljoos (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Puerto Rico

Since nobody has provided information about Pau/Pablo Casals becoming a citizen of Puerto Rico after leaving Spain in 1936 I think that Pau Casals should be deleted from the "WikiProject Puerto Rico". He did indeed die there, he married a Puerto Rican and lived there some time, but since he did not become Puertorican and does not represent the local people, history, language, and culture he should not be in the project. Also, how come PC is both in the PR and Catalan Projects and not in the Spain project??? Thank you --Karljoos (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

This might be a shaky issue. Casals was known to be quite fond of Puerto Rico, where he lived a good portion of his life. There is a museum dedicated to him in San Juan, Puerto Rico, plus the Festival Casals is celebrated annually in the island. He is considered a very important figure here. I think he deserves to stay within the WikiProject Puerto Rico. I'll see what edits I can make to the article to make more notable the importance he had to Puerto Rico. Thief12 (talk) 16:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
While it is true that he did live there 22 of his 97 years and that there's a festival and a museum in Puerto Rico named after him (as there's one in Spain and many other festivals around), he was not born there and so far no one has provided a source indicating that he became legally a Puerto Rican. Also, fondness is something extremely subjective, and if someone wants to add something like that in the article should add a direct quote from Casals that can be verified. I really don't see why he should be in the PR project.-Karljoos (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Pau Carles Salvador

In Catalonia and Spain, Christians are given several names, usually three, when they are baptized, but only the first of those names is used and known after that. It does not make sense to add "Carles Salvador" to his name "Pau", as this only brings confusion. This is the common practise with all persons from spain and catalonia who have an article at wikipedia. Why Pau or Pablo casals should be different? See catalan wikipedia where Pau Casals i Delfilló is used. Jordiferrer (talk) 15:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

A new voice in the never ending discussion

I can't belive Pau Casals article is written in his Spanish translated name. He would have died before being Spanish, sure he would be so deceptioned to see his name, anywhere, written in Spanish. I DEMAND his name to be changed for his birth name PAU (meaning peace in Catalan, when Pablo means NOTHING). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.140.173.9 (talk) 09:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Please read earlier discussion, thanks. -- Infrogmation (talk) 02:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I see, many editors say the name is Pau Casals, this editors bring pooves. It is also the name in catalan, spanish and many of the wikipedias.--Ssola (talk) 12:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Casals and his parents are the only people who decide his name. Casals signed as Pau, and the name Pablo doesn't exists in catalan. Pau Casals says many times he is catalan, just catalan! --Ssola (talk) 12:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I know wikipedia is not a democracy, but many of the people, many of the wikipedias, all the ownwrritted documents from Casals say his name is Pau, the catalan name. The wikipedia can't follow a wrong name only because many people have been wrong during the history.--Ssola (talk) 12:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Normal English usage is Pablo. Those who feel the need of a Catalan name should read the Catalan Wikipedia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Normal English name is Paul not Pablo. Pablo is the name in Spanish. If you want to name him Pablo, you should read the spaniard wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I cite the portuguesse wikipedia: Ironicamente, Pau Casals tornou-se conhecido internacionalmente pelo seu prenome em castelhano, Pablo, sendo que foi um grande incentivador da luta contra a ditadura de Francisco Franco e o domínio nazista. Ao fim, o nome imposto pelo regime franquista ficou gravado.--Ssola (talk) 20:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
How nice; the Portuguese Wikipedia is not a reliable source; the Schwann catalogue, however, is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
How nice! you're kidding!, the Schwann catalogue isn't a reliable source, no citation quotes, doesn't bring information about who has wrote the article... You're kidding, sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
No, of course I'm not kidding. Schwann's doesn't need footnotes; they're not free to be edited by every cause-monger, and so don't have to have them to be marginally credible. 23:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Schwann is an encyclopedia, and all the encyclopedic articles needs footnotes. If they don't cite notes, it won't be an article to be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Infrogmation, you're the only one in this wiki who wants to name this artist as Pablo. As I said few months ago, the name was Pau, but the prove you contributed to the discussion was a photograph signed by him as Pablo (as you said, you saw this signature in a hotel, do you remember?
The only thing you assured not to move the article to Pau Casals was: Pablo was his artistic name so many people only knew him by his artistic name. Can you remember your words? Is that the only reason not to move the article to Pau? In other way: No one calls George W. Bush as Jorge Bush (latin-american name), they call him as George Bush. Why you want to name Mr. Casals by his artistic name, and not by his real name??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Ah!, Infrogmation, another reason ton to move the article to his real name was:
      • 736.000 pages for Pau Casals against 2.470.000 for the spaniard name.
You don't want to redirect the page to the real name just because you want to attract by the name which has more pages. Just one question, how many people visits this page, in a week or a month? maybe 3 or 4 persons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.205.127 (talk) 18:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
¿Jorge Bush? ¿El Greco? - or in the case of cities: ¿Londres? ¿Pekín? We could go on like this, wasting editors' valuable time, until the cows come home, but why don't we all just try to improve the article by adding useful and informative information on Casals, his interesting life and his wonderful music.
If Casals was internationally known - at least in the English-speaking world - as Pablo Casals, that is the name of the article for the English-language Wikipedia. The article clearly states his name in Catalan, it clearly states his love of Catalunya and it clearly states his hatred of Franco. Can anyone reading the article doubt Casals' feelings and love for Catalonia (the English word). I don't think so.
As Infrogmation rightly and repeatedly points out, please provide references that Casals used the name Pau - in public - before Franco forbade the use of Catalan during the dictatorship. --Technopat (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Thought some of you might be interested in the following: In 1911 (for those of you unfamiliar with Spanish history, several years before Franco prohibited the use of Catalan), the New York Times announced that Pablo Casals would appear at the London Musical Festival (Crystal Palace): http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C0CE3DE1031E233A2575AC0A9629C946096D6CF
--Technopat (talk) 22:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
For you (Technopat), which you don't really know what happened in Spain much befor franco dictatorship, since 1931 (the second spanish republic), ALL the names in Spain were obligated to be wrotten in Spanish, not in catalan, euskera or galego. Don't try to manipulate the readers, if you want to talk about history, show ALL the history NOT a small part of it. It will explode in your hands. --k —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 00:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Since the paper is from April 19, 1911, the reign of Alfonso XIII, what does this have to with the price of tea in China? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In 1911 wasn't permitted to name a person in Catalan, Euskera or Galego. It was obligated to mention them ONLY in Spanish form. After the died of franco, it was permitted to register catalan, euskera or galego names. Want some more historical skills of spain? Just because you don't know history from spain, and concretly from Catalunya (the country of Pau Casals). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 01:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

←At the risk of going too far off-topic, but in the interests of furthering my education, if Casals was actually christened Pau - which nobody doubts - just when was the use of the Catalan name prohibited? First someone said "by Franco", then in the earlier dictatorship (Primo de Rivera), and now it turns out that already by 1911. Please provide references - which will obviously be in Spanish - but here on the talk page that doesn't really matter, does it? By the way, I can assure you that I have no interest whatsoever in manipulating history - I find Orwell's 1984 the best antidote to totalitarian leanings, and Wikipedia as the perfect vehicle for permitting that Pau and Pablo can co-exist on the same page.--Technopat (talk) 10:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Just for your request:
Before 1931 (the second Spanish Republic), ALL the regions in Spain -no matter if we're talking about Catalonia, Galicia or Euskadi (all of them have their own culture, their own language, their own history (which their history contribute to all the history in Spain)- were administrated by governors of the capital (I'm refering to the central government -I don't know the exact translation into english sense-), this administrators were usually military (We know as Capità General (in catalan) or Capitán General (in spanish). Due to this lack of region governement the region history (again, no matter if we're talking about Catalunya, Euskadi or Galicia), was prohibited, the language was banned from school, from the public life (I don't know the correct english sense, for example, You couldn't talk to another person in the street, in a restaurant... in your own language, only in the imposed language, Spanish. So nobody could express in freedom. After 1931, people could express in their own language, in school, children could learn catalan, euskera, or galego.
Did you visit Pau Casals Foundation located in El Vendrell? of course no because all the reference are from other and no from the artist foundation.
If nobody doubts he was christened Pau, why you want to maintain this page as Pablo, put the correct name in the header and in the first line specify that he was known as Pablo Casals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.37.220.139 (talk) 14:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your explanation, but you still haven't answered my question (...if Casals was actually christened Pau - which nobody doubts - just when was the use of the Catalan name prohibited?). In answer to your question as to why we(?) keep the article on the English-language Wikipedia under the name Pablo (If nobody doubts he was christened Pau, why you want to maintain this as Pablo...?) the reason is very simple: throughout his long and productive career that is what he was known as - at least in the English-speaking world. The fact that many, and possibly most, modern-day references in El Vendrell, or wherever - especially in his own country - refer to him as Pau (¡y faltaría más!) is unfortunately irrelevant. If anyone can produce references that Casals called himself Pau in public, and in English, please do so.
I answered your question, but you don't read carefully. I give you a hint: From 3th line to 10th line.
The article is seriously lacking in references, and by pure chance, the two I have produced, from the UN and from the New York Times - hardly sources that can be accused of being anti-Catalan - both refer to him outside of Spain, Catalonia or El Vendrell, as Pablo. If Pau was the name on his birth certificate, then that would mean it was officially recognised at the time he was born. If the law/ruling authority later imposed the "castellanización" of his name, it would be interesting to add that fact to the article, and when, duly referenced (and it's obvious that I don't mean in his particular case). As someone has already pointed out, living as he did outside Spain, Casals had plenty of opportunities to refer to himself as Pau if he wanted to and there does not seem to be any evidence of that, at least in the English-language literature. --Technopat (talk) 16:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
The "castellanización" was imposed in Catalunya after 1714. Don't mess it around. If he preferred his name pablo, why he needed to defend Catalunya in all the ceremonies he was invited? Why he preferred to defend Catalunya in the UN against to defend the spanish people who were exilied from the dictatorship, WHY??
I think strongly that you know the history of Spain and concretely from Catalunya.
In Catalunya, from 1714 to 1931 (due to the Aragón Crown lost the war against Phillip V - Phillip V forbade the languages, the history and the emblems of the territories). This means If you wanted to be crhistianised with a Catalan name, it was forbidden!! In 1931 after the second republic came, this prohibition was released and people could be christianised with Catalan names. In 1939, the dictatorship came and all of this was, again, forbade.
  • I've removed the request from Wikipedia:Requested moves, since the request stood incomplete for five days. Scanning the discussion above, I would like to say that the whole issue of whether or not he was legally allowed to use his Catalan name is not really important for naming purposes. The one and only thing that really matters is WP:COMMONNAME: what was the subject of the article best known as in the English world? Please look at Mark Twain for an example of an American writer who is listed under his pen name. What the subject of the article would have wanted is irrelevant. Please keep Wikipedia's naming conventions in mind when carrying out this debate, it generally makes it easier to find consensus. Thank you!--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 07:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


I think it is ashaming for a serious wikipedia to put one person a mistaken name even knowing it. I thing it supposes a total lack of respect towards a person who fought for the peace and the freedom. Your arguments are simply ridiculous, I mean, why should we care how many entries are on the web? what really cares is his real name, and the name he wanted to be called! I could expect to find this kind of attitudes in the spanish wikipedia but I really didn't expect this lack of respect towards catalans coming from yours! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.156.166.98 (talk) 16:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Search engine test

Let's use Wikipedia:Search engine test to see the use of the names below in english community (enlgish webs). Compare:

Mentoning himself as Pau Casals:

Is obvious.--Ssola (talk) 17:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Greetings Ssola and All, At the risk of repeating myself and repeating what others have also pointed out, let's see if we can get some perspective on this:

1. No editor - as far as I know - has any objections to the article referring to Casals as Pau - in fact Wikipedia guidelines clearly state that the full name is to be given, whenever possible, which it is, right there on the first line. However, the article must appear under the name he was commonly known by. That is basic Wikipedia MoS.

2. The fact that a Google search brings up a certain number of occurences of a word/name is totally irrelevant for a number of reasons, including the fact that said number does not refer to an individual and unique document each time but rather that any single document is being repeated an infinite number of times at different websites. Likewise, it's possible that more documents have appeared about Casals written in Catalan over the last 20 years, say, than in English, which would not alter the fact that Casals was known in English - and this is the English-language Wikipedia - as Pablo.

3. Re. the two letters signed Pau, Casals was naturally more likely to use his name Pau when writing in Catalan - which is the case of the two letters above - but that doesn't alter the fact that to the English-speaking public he was known as Pablo, and as far as anyone knows, he made no attempt to change that. The article at Wikipedia must therefore be under that name.

4. As has been pointed out now several times, by means of example, what name is used for our Henry VIII in Spain or in Catalunya. Casals first came to the attention of the English-speaking public long before Franco - criminally in my opinion - banned the use of Catalan. And with successive rulers prohibiting the use of Catalan for several centuries, except for a brief period before Franco, as was pointed out above, I very much doubt that there is a birth certificate that proves he was christened Pau.

5. When a reliable source can demonstrate that Casals wanted to be known in public as Pau, together with documented evidence that the name Pau was used in the English-speaking world, then I think editors at this article can seriously enter into debate about what to do about it, but until then there really doesn't seem much to discuss - however many Google hits can be produced.

6. Please try to understand that this is not a matter of disrespect towards a great musician or an insult to the Catalan language - like other illustrious people before me, I, too, speak Catalan at home :) - But in the same way that this discussion is being carried out in English at the English-language version of Wikipedia, the subject must also be referred to under his English-language name... although no-one is seriously suggesting we change it to Paul, I hasten to add. --Technopat (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I know, and many Catalan people know, that saying our name in spanish is like an insult (especially if we are strong Catalan language defensors), you know, the opresion stills afecting us. Names haven't to be modificated. I could search references for this three sentences but I don't want to lose more my time. Insulting is not permited at wikipedia. I'm leaving this discussion, I prefer making grow ca-wiki. Just to make all you know that is the reason Catalan people (we) are angry when we see this page: we feel insulted in his place. I hope english wikipedia will understand any time. Thanks for your responses and sorry for my bad english. Adéu-siau!--Ssola (talk) 11:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
For me, as a catalan that has heard the name Pau Casals, in catalan, for more than 30 years, it was very surprising to see the spanish Pablo here as the title. Even the spanish wikipedia is using Pau. When I made my first google test, I saw a similar number of results for "Pau Casals" and "Pablo Casals". However, if we use advanced filter to search only english pages, it is true that Pablo is more commonly found. I now understand it better. As Technopat said, a reliable source is needed to check wether he wanted to be known as Pau or not. Jordiferrer (talk) 16:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

Please note: Before making any further proposals to changing the name of this article from Pablo Casals to Pau Casals, please read the following article on why the article is so named: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names) Thank you. --Technopat (talk) 23:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

It should be moved to Pau Casals--83.60.62.39 (talk) 19:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

After a exhaustive research, I changed the link of the El Vendrell to the current because they are using this.

I searched the name in a Catalan Encyclopedia, and I find that his birth name was Pau Casals i Defilló. If you don't belive me I can scan the page of that Encyclopedia. Jacquard2 09:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


Resulta que per que canviïn la pàgina de pablo a Pau, s'ha de demanar formalment. El que cal fer és demanar-ho en massa per tal que ens escoltin. Però, no obstant, hi ha un problema, el bibliotecari que porta el tema ha arguït que no el canvia ja que buscant pel google veu que Pablo té uns resultats de cent i pico mil pàgines mentres que Pau, només en té menys de la meitat de l'altre. Jacquard2 19:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


I've added back the "Pablo" version of his name - it is very common in English speaking countries, and as we're dealing with an article in English here, it has to be mentioned. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "Pablo" is more common than "Pau" in English, meaning the article really ought to live at Pablo Casals - I'll leave it for the time being, however. --Camembert


Yes, all the examples I've seen of printed references and labels of his phonograph records for most of his career, both in the USA and Latin America, exclusively refer to him as "Pablo Casals". Pau may have been his real name, but professionally in many countries he was well known as "Pablo". -- Infrogmation 17:45 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I have been reading his live in a Catalan Enciclopedia, and I noticed that his real name was PAU CASALS i DEFILLÓ, not pablo carlos salvador casls i defilló.

I've decided to move it here, to "Pablo" (at last). --Camembert
Camember, your imposition is an abuse! You are disrespectful with Pau Casals, you do not respect the natural and original name of a person, nor you respect her memory, the memory of somebody who struggled for the freedom of the people and received the medal of the peace of the ONU. He spoke to the ONU in the year 1971, where was received like Pau Casals. This man who for the fascist dictatorship (I do not speak about you, camember) of Franco had to run away from her Catalonia and went exile himself, this Spanish dictatorship that so much hatred sowed against the Catalans. I claim Pau Casals for her name, I claim Pau Casals that he composed the hymn of the ONU, I claim Pau Casals that he struggled for the Freedom and the Peace, which never accepted the IMPOSITION. Camember, your imposition is an abuse!

His name wasn't Pablo but Pau. It's easy as that. I know about his live and I'm sure that this mistake would offend him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Great Mike (talk • contribs) 12:43, 8 August 2006 .

The title should be moved back to Pau Casals, because it was his true name, and because it was his wish to be known by that name. I fail to see how there can be an arguent when Pau himself settled the matter. As I see it, this case is analogous to Bombay redirecting to Mumbai and others similar (see lenghty discussions, votings and agreed policies). --RR' 23:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The discussion has been going on for years, often emotionally. References would help, for example pointers to writings by Casals himself stating his own wishes about his name. Thank you, -- Infrogmation 00:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Please could you post here his own wishes to be called pablo against pau?


The Discussion of if it is Pau or Pablo, has finished in the wikipedia française they decided that the birth name is the name that he prefered. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau_Casals --¿No querías caldo? Pues toma tres tazas.
Logic tells us that the name he performed and recorded under is more likely to be the name he preferred to use in his public life rather than the name he was given at birth. The English-language encyclopedia article must give the name he was most known as in English, of course giving his birthname in a prominent place on the header. Many, if not most musicians (and many other prominent figures in history) are known by names other than their birthnames and the Wikipedia articles are clear on that. --Technopat (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Why can't the editor of this page understand that the title of a person must use the real name. Other common nicknames should only be used to redirect users to the real name. That is the purpose of an enciclopedia isn't it? Or, should the L.A. Lakers Catalan basketball player, Pau Gasol, should be also be titled as "Pablo"? Pablo is a Spanish name and Pau is a Catalan name. Of course that in the United States are more people with Spanish names (most common), but that should not be an argument to hide other less-common names. Please, lets respect all cultures. Visca el Barça i Visca Catalunya :) --Xavier Castellà —Preceding undated comment added 23:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC).
Casals was known in the English-speaking world as Pablo - as documented in several places on this page and in the article itself - well before Franco arrived on the scene. If documented evidence is presented that Casals was born Pau - and to date no-one has presented such evidence - it would certainly be interesting, but again irrelevant. The English Wikipedia article entry must be the name by which an artist is most well-known, and giving prominent position - as the article does - to the person's full name in whatever language corresponds to his/her birthplace, etc.
As far as I know, no-one has ever referred to Gasol as Pablo, so it is again irrelevant.
It has nothing to do with respecting all cultures, it's a simple matter of making an encyclopedia entry easy to find. Try finding a famous person in the original version of Chinese, Farsi or any other language and you will understand why.--Technopat (talk) 00:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

How long did Pablo live in Puerto Rico? -- Antonio 100 percent Boricuaaaaaaaaaaaa!! Martin

From 1956 up to his death in 1973, as far as I know (his move to Puerto Rico is noted in the article under the "Later years" heading). --Camembert

Camembert, the most common name of Pau or Pablo in english is Paul.

Pau Casals was catalan and very proud of it. If you use the castelian name of paul, pablo, I supose he will prefered if you used the form: (...) also known as Pablo Casals.

Your name is Camembert nobody calls you cheese cause is the most common name in english.

Is Catalan now a separate nationality to Spanish? I've noticed that several articles about artists are being amended (by the same person, I think) from Spanish to Catalan Spanish. Is this being overly sensitive? Surely the Catalan part can be included in the main body of the article and not be treated as a separate nationality? Does Catalonia issue separate passports from Spain? Are nationals of Manchester to be referred to as "Mancunian English"? Will Americans from Miami now be called "Floridian Americans" and will we start seeing references to "Québecois Canadian", "Corsican French" "Tuscan Italian" as nationalities? Orbicle 15:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

But you accept Sean Connery being defined as a Scott and not as a Briton? Ripero (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Orbicle, Catalonia is a nation since more than 1000 years ago. Now we are administratively under 2 different states that his the kingdom of Spain and the republic of France. On the 11th September of 1714, Catalonia lost his freedom in a historical resistance in Barcelona. How he spoke the ONU Pau Casals: "I am Catalan, Catalonia has had the first parliament of the world". No, we have own passport, it is not allowed us to have it. But we struggle for Catalonia, a millennial nation! --sebas 84.77.198.72 20:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

So be it! But the worst combination of all would be Spanish Catalan because it would mean he was Spaniard form Catalonia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.37.50.212 (talk) 19:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Orbicle, Catalan is "now" (and has been for centuries) a separate nationality. The issue of passports is irrelevant. A passport is issued by a state. Not all nationalities have states and nobody is claiming that Catalonia is a state. See for example Poundmaker, who is described as Cree in the first sentence, and not "American." In checking this example, I was also surprised to see that the article is under his Cree name, which I have never encountered in any literature, and "Poundmaker" is a redirect. Carolynparrishfan 13:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name Pablo Casals.

This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.

Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.

Thank you! -- Correction: Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name PAU Casals.

This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.

Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.

Thank you!

Changed on the legacy Pablo Casals Cello Foundation to the correct name's foundation Pau Casals Foundation Jacquard2 22:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


He wanted to be named Pau (not Pablo) because Pau was his name in catalan, his language, and specially because PAU in his language means PEACE. I don't understand why english wikipedia are not able to respect something than even spanish wikipedia respects. --reventlov

Marriages

Someone please correct the following. Look at the Sub-section for Puerto Rico and see:

'On August 3, 1957, at 80, Casals married 20 year old Marta Montañez'

followed later in the same paragraph by:

'He subsequently married Marta Angélica Montañez y Martinez on April 3, 1957.[11]'

Just another one of the many, many blunders stupid 'editors' make on Wikipedia. 63.118.154.94 (talk) 19:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Google: Pau Casals 891.000 > Pablo Casals 741.000

I believe Pau would be grateful to have his real name on the biggest encyclopedia ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mezod (talk • contribs) 23:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Mezod, I fully understand what you mean, but unfortunately in the english speaking countries they are used to use the spanish "Pablo" instead of his native "Pau". See long discussions above. If you limit the google search to pages in english language, what do you get? --Jordiferrer (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
You contradicted your own argument: in English-speaking countries they would refer to him as PAUL, not PABLO. You should know what you're talking about before you, eh, talk.63.118.154.94 (talk) 19:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I am aware of the difference of results between "pablo casals" and "pau casals" google-searching in english. I am sure that difference will increase thanks to incorrect informations such as this wikipedia. Sometimes people is wrong, and someone has to put them on the right track. Once, I thought wikipedia meant to do that. Anyway, it's awkward that the article starts with a name which isn't the article name. --Mezod (talk) 20:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Pau Casals

To support the preferent use of Pau instead of Pablo, I'd like to quote from his auto-biography Joys and Sorrows – Reflections by Pablo Casals, as told by Albert E. Kahn:

"It was natural for me to use the Catalan name "Pau" in preference to the Spanish "Pablo." When I was young, it was still the custom in Catalonia to use Spanish baptismal names. And so I'd been called Pablo. But I later came to much prefer my Catalan name-Catalan, after all, is the true language of my people. More than once I'd told my managers I wanted to use the name "Pau" in my concert tours. But they'd argue, "Audiences have come to think of you as Pablo Casals. Nobody will know who Pau Casals is." But now, in naming my own orchestra, I no longer felt under this restriction."

And it was not really a custom in Catalonia to use the Spanish baptismal names, it was just mandatory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.115.144.17 (talk) 08:23, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Not until later in Franco era; he was using Pablo long before then. Infrogmation (talk)

Pablo Casals vs. Pau Casals

On wp-FR, after another move of our article fr:Pablo Casals to fr:Pau Casals, we have chosen, after reverting the move, to add a whole indefinite protection against any other move...

Note that wikiquote:Special:Contributions/Ssola, who has made two renamings of wp-FR (2008/11/09 and 2009/02/01), one on wp-IT (2008/11/09, reverted), one on wp-SV (2009/02/01, not reverted yet) and one on wp-EN (2009/01/21), is also requesting to rename the article on wikiquote-EN... Hégésippe | ±Θ± 07:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I gived reasons. I recently visited Pau Casal's museum and it's fantastic :). How did his wife call him? I don't know. I said I wasn't going to continue this talk, but I needed to write this message.--Ssola | Catalan roxs talk —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC).
I'm glad you enjoyed the visit to Casal's museum and I'm sure it's well worth it. I also have no doubt whatsoever that his wife called him Pau. But it really is not relevant to the article at the English-language Wikipedia - which is only concerned with the name that Casals used in public when referred to by English speakers.--Technopat (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't agree that the only concern should be the one you name. There are other concerns, such as how the particular person was called, which is more accurate, etc. There are many other examples in the wikipedia where the correct name prevailed over the most popular name in English, such as Mumbai (instead of Bombay).
It should be pointed out that this is one of the many instances where the google test just doesn't work. The proportion between Spanish speakers and Catalan speakers is 32 to 1. So it stands to logic that the sources will follow the same pattern and translations to English from Spanish will be much more numerous.
As I see it, the page should be renamed, to priorize the "person" over the "commercial brand".--RR (talk) 09:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for not replying to your note earlier, RR. I'm afraid that, once again, the Google search for Spanish vs Catalan is irrelevant. The only possible criterion for the English-language Wikipedia is what the English-language references use, at least during his lifetime - including his international career before Franco's dictatorship, give the name Pablo. It is only after his death - and in homage to his Catalan origins and the huge efforts to "normalise" the use of Pau that this name becomes increasingly widespread. However, every single public figure with an article at Wikipedia goes under the name he or she is most commonly recognised under - with a logical reference to his or her real name included in the first paragraph. --Technopat (talk) 23:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Why do you guys argue so much about Casals being "Spanish" or "Catalan" or "Pau" or "Pablo" and you don't say anything about being listed in the Puerto Rican program or classified in the categories "Puerto Rican classical cellists" and "Puerto Rican-Spaniards"??? I find this very interesting indeed.
I guess that's because categories are not exclusive. In some regards, he could be classified as Catalan, Spanish and Puerto Rican at the same time. In the same way he can be classified simultaniously as a cellist, conductor and composer. However, the name in the article is exclusive: it's one or the other.--RR (talk) 16:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Just visited the Festival Casals de Puerto Rico/Puerto Rican Casals Festival, founded by him, personally, as Pablo Casals, in 1956 [[3]] so he obviously had no objection as of the late 1950s, to being known as Pablo. --Technopat (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I have one of Casals' early 12" 78 records, Melody in F and Largo on Columbia A5649. The articles states that he made his first recordings in 1915. According to http://settlet.fateback.com/COLA5500.htm, this recording was made in December 1914. I don't know which is correct. Bruce Walters, April 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.27.102.221 (talk) 07:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

His name is PAU CASALS, no Pablo Casals —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.159.176.72 (talk • contribs)

On top of google search results, let me add that both the spanish wikipedia and the catalan one refer to him as "Pau Casals" as the article title. --Jordiferrer (talk) 10:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Look to the catalan meaning of "Pau" and you will find another argument for Pau Casals proudness on his name. -- 217.228.253.226 (talk) 10:58, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand why the English wp is among the last still sticking to the Hispanized name "Pablo" instead of the original Pau Casals. In many similar cases, the Catalan name was preferred (for example Francesc Ferrer i Guàrdia instead of Francisco Ferrer Guardia, Antoni Gaudí instead of Antonio Gaudí, etc.). I suggest the article be finally moved to Pau Casals: not only it's the original name, but it's also more used: Pablo Casals has 414,000 google entries, and Pau Casals 727,000; also in English pages, Pau Casals is more used than Pablo Casals (192,000 vs. 138,000 hits). I therefore see no reason to keep the current title. Viator slovenicus (talk) 20:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
If nobody has any objections, I propose the page to be moved from "Pablo Casals" to "Pau Casals". From the discussions above, it seems to me that the large majority of editors supports this move anyway. Viator slovenicus (talk) 19:36, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Yes, there are objections. On both sides. Note that "Pablo" is not merely "the Hispanized name", but how he was known (as well as how he billed himself, how his records were labeled, and how he signed his name) in the United States and other English speaking countries. I don't see any indication that "the large majority of editors" favor such a move as most of the comments are the accumulation of many years of people passing through most of whom have shown no indication to otherwise participate in editor nor improvement of the article. Infrogmation (talk) 01:17, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Well, as far as I know, Antoni Gaudí was also known in contemporary English sources as Antonio Gaudí, and Eugeni d'Ors was not only known as Eugenio d'Ors, but he also signed almost all of his works after 1920 under that name. And nevertheless, they are both listed under their original Catalan name. If you google Casals name (only English entries!), you will see that Pau Casals is much more common than Pablo Casals. Viator slovenicus (talk) 21:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
For what is worth, I've documented the reason he was known as Pablo Casals in his professional career — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.122.64.188 (talk) 17:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your good faith effort, but if you take a little time to read up about Casals, you will find that is obviously false. He was already internationally known as "Pablo Casals" decades before the start of the Franco regime, so it had nothing to do with the policies of Franco. Infrogmation (talk) 19:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

PAU was his name.

Pau was his name. Because of the dictatorship, all the first names had to be in Spanish. That means that even if he went to live in Puerto Rico, he still had "Pablo" on his passport. I don't think he could change his name to Catalan in Puerto Rico. He considered himself Catalan, as he said at the United Nations Assembly (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AKlkO3Tt3Kw). I'm sure he would have changed his name to Catalan with the Spanish "democracy". So, that's why I think his name should be PAU, a beautiful name in Catalan that also means "peace". To put his name in Spanish is nonsense. The English Wikipedia talking about a Catalan musician through Spanish: nonsense. This is what we, the Catalans, have to suffer for not being independent and being under the rule of Spain, France and Italy. We live under the shadow of these big countries, and a lot of people don't even understand this!

Orbicle, what you say is nonsense as well. Go to Corsica and tell a person from there that he/she is French. Then listen to what they tell you. Or a better one, go to Scotland and tell the Scottish they're British. I'm sure you're English or American, or from a big colony which doesn't respect the minority, am I right? You all behave in the same way. You wouldn't think the same if you were from a country which was invaded by a bigger country and ruled by it since then, with all the consequences.

Anyway, it's always the same thing over and over again. His name was PAU. If you still put a foreign name to him it means you don't respect him. Marta.

Clearly this is a very emotional issue for some folks. Please see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Let's stick to the facts. If we have some documentation about him wanting to change his legal name but being prevented from doing so, add a reference. However, removing all mention of "Pablo"from the article is not a matter of "respect"; some might even think it is dishonest censorship to refuse to mention that he was known by that name to millions of fans, he had records issued under that name, appeared at performances under that name, signed autographs with that name. If the name is objectionable; explain with referenced facts; that can go in the article. But please don't expect the world to pretend the name "Pablo Casals" never existed when there is ample doccumentation that it did. Hope this helps, -- Infrogmation 02:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
cleary you don't respect each others. First of all, you don't respect the neutral point of view. you are confused by the people that claim that the name was pablo, and you said in 5 february 2007 (comments above) that you found a photograph with the name pablo could you post it? It is that photograph? http://www.grafologianet.com.ar/Firmas.htm it's clearly manipulated with photoshop or similars. Some people are aporting new thing that are focusing on the name was Pau nor the pablo you say, could you demonstrate that the name he prefered was pablo? -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.32.241 (talk)
No, that image has nothing to do with what I was talking about. A signed photo of "Pablo Casals" (as he himself signed it) can be seen by any visitor to the Longe Vue House & Garden, a tourist attraction in New Orleans. Per your request, I shall put it online within the next day or so. However I hardly think such evidence is rare. I could also scan old articles or record labels refering to "Pablo Casals"; such can be found easily in many libraries. Any attempt to pretend he was not called that is silly, and trying to say that the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people who loved his beautiful music who bought his records which were labeled "Pablo Casals" must have been motivated by disrespect for Casals or support for Fascism is absurd if not worse. -- Infrogmation 12:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
File:PabloCasals1963Signed.jpg
Photograph singed "Pablo Casals"

Here you go. Click for full size. Hope this helps. -- Infrogmation 13:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

As you said, this photograph is (was) (as I could saw when it was posted) a "tourist attraction". Would you like a photograph signed as PAU CASALS? I could find here in Catalonia a lot, maybe a thousand more than your's one photograph. --81.61.33.92 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.33.92 (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


This image does not contibute to this discussion, it is a simply image, a photo like the letter signed as PAU CASALS. PS: Could you post the messages that someone posted before? You don't respect each others. PS2: The link with the speech at the United Nations (He says from his lips that he was a Catalan http://youtube.com/watch?v=uD43EKR4Qc4 (this is with subtitles) http://youtube.com/watch?v=e4c0nW5WSMI (this is dubbed in catalan) in the videos the words of the Mr. Casals are both in english so you, (a folk american new orleans) don't must have some troubles to understand him; Ah! did you found something if you search for pablo casals united nations ? and if you search for pau casals united nations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.231.98.136 (talk)

Whether it "contributes to this discussion" or not, the anon at 81.61.32.241 specifically requested it. Despite the user's insults, I granted the request. That anon has since shown themselves to be nothing but a vandal who cares nothing for Casals but only for deliberate insults and disruption, and so has been blocked. As to your question, I know of no one here who have challenged that Casals was Catalan. Cheers, --

Infrogmation 03:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


Please Infrogmation I'm Glad you show me the insults that you are accusing me to say. Pleeease show them to all of us. Pleease restore the lasts comments on this board, if you restore them you are possibiliting other people to judge if I insulted you, or if I insulted anyone. And about the photo of you are proud of, clearly shows to the visitors an ERROR. The SURNAME was CASALS not the surname they show CASAL. --Toca'm els collons!
  • Let's try to stop being emotional, and stick to the facts. Casals birth name was Pau, because he was born in Catalonia and educated in a Catalan family. It is also true that he was known with the spanish name Pablo, during a big part of his professional career. As of today, both "Pau Casals" and "Pablo Casals" are very common terms used everywhere. I just tried a google search, using quotation marks to get more precise results, and we have 443.000 results for "Pau Casals" and 405.000 results for "Pablo Casals". It is therefore very important to mention both of them at the introduction of the article. I will do it now.Jordiferrer (talk) 10:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


May be we can resurrect him! So we can ask him in person why did he use "Pablo" instead of "Pau", his birthname, early during his career or during Spanish's dictatorship... (so we don't have to rely on hundreds over hundreds of personal correspondence where he signs as "Pau") furthermore, it'd be a wise idea to ask him about why he went on exile as well. Just in case in the future any folk here gets the idea to change his "exile" for "vacation", because he read a letter where he stated having a great time in New York... I'd take it seriously if it wasn't because I know that for normal people Pau's life and basically the effects of Spanish's dictatorship are not well known, due to the pre-democratic silence's pact.

Facts: Pau Casals, was born as it's written, but used "Pablo" due to the censorship its people suffered of its language and culture. The name "Pablo" was the only allowed by the government authorities (even before dictactorship) and that is why is better known worlwide, but he used as much as he could his birthname.

In fact, what he is precisely claimming at his speech in the United Nations (this video we all have seen thousands of times) is being CATALAN.

So please, could we move this page to his birthname "Pau Casals" (and end this discussion once and for all), while pointing he was well-know in his time to the name of Pablo due to political censorship? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.19.50.211 (talk) 13:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposed changes in the lead

Change:

... was a Spanish Catalan cellist and conductor ...

to

... was a Catalan cellist, conductor and composer ...

  • because there is no such thing as a Spanish Catalan, as there is no such thing as an English Scottish

+But there is such a thing as a French Catalan, as I discovered some 30 years ago when a strikingly beautiful woman announced herself to me as such Reffik (talk) 21:49, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

  • and because he was also a composer

+Here I agree (and his motet O Vos Omnes is very beautiful)

  • and because Xan always redirect to X people (like Scotish)

And

... known during his professional career as Pablo Casals ...

to

... known in some countries as Pablo Casals ...

  • because in Catalonia has always been known as Pau Casals, even in Spain

Please comment --Polmas (talk) 21:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Please see coments by User:Ripero on this issue from 01:47, 27 December 2006 above. This article has long been subject to people unilaterally removing all mention of "Catalonia" on one side, and other people removing all mention of "Spain" on the other side. I think best to keep mentioning both. Casals was born in the part of Catalonia within the borders of Spain at the time, as opposed to being a Catalan born within France, no? Infrogmation (talk) 00:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

His name was Pau, not Pablo

I'm not from Catalonia. I live in Málaga, a city in the south of Spain. It's not a question of politics. He prefered to be called Pau, and more than this, that was his true name. Apologize my English.

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