Talk:New Waveland Cafe and Clinic/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

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Initial review[edit]

Hi there Basket of Puppies, good job on the article. My comments follow-- the list seems pretty long, but most of the items are easily remedied. I think you've got a "good article" coming. :)

  • There should be no space between the period and the references/footnote numbers, nor a space between each reference. You can fix this by putting the reference <ref> tags on the same line as the previous content, don't move down to the next line.
    • Got it. I did that as it made for putting in the refs a bit easier, tho I have gone ahead and merged them on the same lines. I hope I didn't miss any! Basket of Puppies 17:38, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, putting them all on one line does make it harder to read the code, but it's nicer when reading the article. If you're amenable to the idea, you can put each parameter for the {{cite news}} template on each line. For example, the first reference in the article could look like this: (This is my personal preference, you're under no obligation to do it like this)
<ref name="MSNBC1">{{cite news
 | title = The un-organization - Rising from Ruin
 | url = http://risingfromruin.msnbc.com/2005/11/meals_and_dance.html
 | accessdate = 2009-04-24
 | date = 2005-11-01
 | publisher = [[MSNBC]]
 | quote = One of the great ironies in the landscape of Katrina recovery efforts is the success of the New Waveland Café}}</ref>
That reference doesn't use the first= and last= parameters, since that article doesn't list an author. The quote= parameter is for adding a short quote from the article, which then helps people in the future, if the link goes dead-- they will be able to search for the article easier. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  20:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note - If you like this format that I'm suggesting, I'll offer to reformat all the citations in the article, since I have a script that can help me do it in short order. Let me know. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  20:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh the script sounds perfect! I am very agreeable to the format chance. Basket of Puppies 20:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I will get to it. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  21:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  21:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You switch back and forth between "Cafe and Clinic" and "Cafe & Clinic". I'd prefer consistency.
    • Makes sense! I believe I straightened this out by changing all references to "Cafe & Clinic". Basket of Puppies
      • Sorry to come back to this again, but I was just reading the manual of style (Wikipedia:MOS#Article titles), and it says the word "and" should be used instead of the character "&" in article titles. So this means the article should be moved to New Waveland Cafe and Clinic. Then, for consistency, all references to this inside the article should be changed to "and" as well. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  20:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oops! I am fine with this change. Want to do it or should I? Basket of Puppies 20:42, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • After reading the sources more in-depth, I think the title needs to be changed to New Waveland Cafe. This is because we can only have information that comes directly from the sources. (Otherwise it's called original research, and we can't have that.) In the sources, the most common name was "New Waveland Café", the second most common was "New Waveland Cafe", and a third was also given "Waveland Village Cafe". I think we should go with the most common one, per WP:MOS#Article titles. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  21:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I have to admit I am a bit partial to keeping it as New Waveland Cafe and Clinic. They were two halves to a hole. Some of the sources do indeed refer to the Clinic and others refer to the Cafe. As far as the Village source I think that can be passed-over. Basket of Puppies 21:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • Yes, I hear you. I'm sure you were right there on the front lines, and that's how you and others referred to it. But the only thing is for Wikipedia, we have to follow the policies and guidelines. Every bit of material we add to an article must be sourced to reliable sources. It doesn't matter that I know that water is wet, if I want to add that statement to an article I have to cite a reliable source. It's the same with the name of this article. We can't go by what you know to be true, we must follow the policy of citing reliable sources. If the reliable sources referred to the whole installation as the "New Waveland Cafe" and later went on to describe that it was a soup kitchen, medical clinic etc, then that is how we have to treat the subject here as well. We can't give the article a title "New Waveland Cafe and Clinic" unless other reliable sources first gave it that name verbatim. That is why I had changed the lead sentence to call the whole deal the "New Waveland Cafe", and then went on to describe that it was really more than a cafe. Does my explanation make sense? I'm not making this stuff up, nor am I trying to coerce you. It's just what Wikipedia policy says. See WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:V. What do you think? Do you think you can live with that? — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  22:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • Oh, one other thing, were there any sources that referred to the "New Waveland Clinic" verbatim?, or was it only "New Waveland Cafe" and then they also discussed the "medical clinic"? — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  22:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • Got it. I have no problem with how you describe it now. As far as specific references to the 'New Waveland Clinic' there are several sources which do, such as this letter in reason magazine and this article from the Knight Rider/Tribune News Service. I hope at least the second one is acceptable. I realize the first might not be, as it is a letter. Basket of Puppies 00:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                  • I've changed the lead sentence to read "The New Waveland Café and New Waveland Clinic together formed a disaster response center...", and I've changed the article title to "New Waveland Cafe and Clinic". Since we have reliable sources for both names-- "New Waveland Cafe" and "New Waveland Clinic"-- then we can use both of them. For the title of the article, we can leave it like you originally had it (with the change from "&" to "and"). I think this is the best route to take per this policy (Wikipedia:TITLE#Use_of_.22and.22) of combining two closely related topics into one article, and joining them with "and" for the title. So in my opinion, this issue is resolved. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  17:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Yes, I agree. I just have to say I am extremely impressed with all your effort and hard work. The article is really shaping up quite well, largely thanks to you! Basket of Puppies 17:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • First you treat it as one entity, "New Waveland Cafe & Clinic was a disaster response center", then as two separate entities: "The Cafe and Clinic were founded". Again, consistency. Since there is a section for each one later in the article, they should probably be treated as two separate entities. Perhaps the opening sentence could be changed to "New Waveland Cafe and Clinic were a cafe and clinic that together formed a disaster response center...".
  • The lead should introduce and summarize the topic. The introduction is fine, but it needs the summary. I would expand the lead section with an additional summary of the article contents. To start with, try to write a short summary paragraph by writing one sentence for each section of the article, then add that to the bottom of the lead paragraph. WP:LEAD
  • I'd like to see a 300 pixel wide image at the top of the article. MOS:IMAGES
    • What sort of image would you suggest? I have a whole bunch. Basket of Puppies 17:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you have a picture of the parking lot, showing the tents and the area where the Cafe and Clinic were in general, I think that would be the best. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  20:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I just uploaded the following pictures from inside the clinic: , , File:Nwcinside6.jpg I shall be looking for some for the dome and parking lot. Basket of Puppies 20:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I have found the follow pictures of the Cafe and dome on the web, but I do not know about the licenses for use on-wili dome and clinic (you can see the dome and next to it is the clinic (partially blocked) with the American and EMS flags on it, tents of the cafe, feeding people. What do you think? Basket of Puppies 20:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • We can't use images of unknown copyright status, so I'd go with the first one you have above File:Nwcinside2.jpg. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  21:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • Where do you think it would fit best? Under the clinic section? Basket of Puppies 21:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • I just added it as the lead image (300px) for the article. It could also go in the clinic section, but there's already an image there. If we could get an image of the whole cafe/clinic area from farther away, that might be nicer, but this image works, since the clinic was an integral part of the installation. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  22:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hurricane Katrina made landfall" -- is that grammatical? I'd say "reached land".
  • "Waveland was destroyed" -- I'd prefer more specifics to help understanding -- "The town of Waveland was destroyed".
  • I would suggest expanding the "Impact of Katrina on Waveland and Hancock County" section a bit so the subsequent header is not indented to the right due to the picture.
    • Working on it! I was wondering about that, and thought this section was a bit thin. I shall add content to it. Basket of Puppies 18:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use the "upright" parameter for the image of Pete and Faye Jones, so it is sized correctly. [[File:Peteandfayjones.jpg|left|thumb|upright|Rev Col Pete and Fay Jones]]
  • "existed solely on donations" -- perhaps better wording would be "was maintained by donations".
  • No need to link Rainbow Gathering twice in the same section.
  • Don't link Brad "Baruch" Stone since it links back to this article.
    • Based on the number of news sources that covered him I think he might be deserving of his own article. What to you think? Basket of Puppies 18:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      •  Done If you think that is the case, then leave it like it is. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  20:35, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "later an additional 40ft long, 10ft tall tent was added" -- You might want to use the {{convert}} template for these measurements.
  • Consider whether a "See also" section with relevant links would be appropriate. WP:SEEALSO
  • I'd like to see some additional parameters filled out for the "cite" templates. Namely, first= last= date= and publisher=. First and last are the author's first and last name, date is the date (YYYY-MM-DD) the article was published on, and publisher is the company/institution that published the article (not the website domain name). WP:CITET
    • I was hoping I had the right template. I'll begin work on moving them to citeweb. Basket of Puppies 18:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • See my offer above to format all the references for you with my script (if you like the way I format them :)) — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  20:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you don't think I've been too hard on the article (or on you). You've got a good start, and the things I've mentioned shouldn't be to hard to carry out. If you have any questions or want to reply to the individual items, do so under the specific item (using proper indentation) so we can keep things in order. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  17:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No hard feelings! I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful and thorough review! I shall begin to work on all you indicated right away. Smiles! Basket of Puppies 17:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good, have fun! — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  17:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alrighty! I've made the edits you suggested (will expand the Impact section and do the cites very soon). What are your current thoughts? Basket of Puppies 18:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More things[edit]

  • "Rev Col" -- This should be spelled out instead of using the abbreviation. What would it be, "Reverend Colonel"? — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  20:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, he was an ordained reverend and a colonel is the US Army. Basket of Puppies 21:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
     Done — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  21:56, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Taking off[edit]

I am going on a short trip and will be back in about a day. Just wanted to let you know as we seemed to be working pretty seriously all day. Thanks for all your help! I think the article is really shaping up! Basket of Puppies 21:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, no problem, have a good trip! — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  22:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I am back! It was such a beautiful day here in New England and I spent all day in the park and tossing the frisbee. That said I am back and ready to get back to serious work on the topic. Basket of Puppies 00:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wrapping things up[edit]

I've tweaked a few more things in the article, and I think it's getting pretty good. We just need to proofread it one last time, checking for spelling/grammar/punctuation errors, as well as to try to improve the prose as much as possible, so it sounds as much like a professional encyclopedia article as it can. If any of the sections can be expanded some more that is fine too. So I'll read through the whole thing once more with an eye to improve the writing, and I'd like it if you could too. So to sum things up, let's make sure the writing is as brilliant as possible, and let's see if there is anything that can be expanded. After that, I'll have no problem giving my approval for "good article" status. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  18:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • One other thing. A "good article" must be factually accurate and verifiable. Do you have any sources for the information you added in the Clinic section? Is some of that info in any of the references currently cited in the article? — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  04:03, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • In regards to the MASH and battlefield references I believe the MASH in MS article would be the best fit: "The facilities are pretty incredible," she said. "It's set up like a M.A.S.H. tent."MASH in MS It does a good job of describing the specialities of the physicians who were volunteering (that week it was a pediatrician and a surgeon). Regarding the hospital, the Heart Hospital in Lacombe was the one patients were sent to. Northshore was occasionally used. As far as the equipment and such, I believe Professor LeBaron in the video (which is linked) makes reference to the lack of advanced equipment (such as no X-Ray or labs), tho I'll rewatch it to make sure. Basket of Puppies 04:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The MASH in MS article includes the info of the two hospitals people could travel to, "The local hospital, Hancock County Medical Center, was knocked unconscious during Katrina. Otherwise, patients must travel 42 miles to Slidell, La., or 35 miles to Gulfport, Miss." and how the local hospital in the country had been destroyed. Basket of Puppies 04:53, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Ok, I think we've wrapped this up for now. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  22:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • LinguistAtLarge, it has been an utter pleasure and honor to work with you on this article. I cannot thank you enough for your tons of amazing and excellent editing, proofing, expansion, sourcing, etc. You are an asset to Wikipedia. Basket of Puppies 02:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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