Talk:New Netherland/Archive 1

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Minuit spoke English !???

"Pieter Minuit, was a German-born Walloon who spoke English and worked for a Dutch company."

Do you mean simply he *also* knew a rather third-rate language called English, after he was from French-speaking background, born in Germany, working for a Dutch Company in an area where many French-Speaking settlers settle... Why would he [only ?] speak English?

And if he knew also English, how well?

In any case I think saying "Peter Minuit" spoke English without a qualificative is very misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.217.66 (talk) 09:35, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It is quite possible he only spoke english if he was taken to the states as a young child. It is not misleading anyway as there is no implication that this was his only language, only the fact that he spoke it--Charles (talk) 09:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Flag?

Where does the currently displayed flag come from? I can find no reference to it anywhere besides halfway down this Alternate History site :http://pmburgess.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.95.11.114 (talk) 00:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The indicated source describes it as the flag of a "Republic of New Netherland". In other words; as the flag of his fantasy nation. Cannot location any credible sourcing to back that one up. Which also means that the flag image should be deleted from Commons as well before more people fall into this trap. 83.89.16.138 (talk) 10:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

New Netherland vs New Netherlands

I'm not sure if that's right; Although the Dutch name or the colony is singular, the English name might well be plural (compare with modern day Nederland vs. the Netherlands). -- Rik

The name New Netherland, without the -s, is correct. In the original Dutch, the name is, in different spellings, 'Nieu Nederlandt', always singular. And, oh, let's please leave out $24. The payment was sixty guilders, presumably in trade goods. There is no need to exchange the amount, especially not using a mid-nineteenth century exchange rate. -- Jaap Jacobs

This article seems to be a double of New Netherlands. I've seen the name without an -s before in other sources. Does anybody know which one is correct and why? -- User:Jheijmans

Just one article, New Netherlands is redirected to New Netherland. The latter has a few more hits on google, but since it's a translation of Nieuw Nederland it's not surprising that the spelling varies. Either one is "correct". In fact the Dutch spelling varies too, e.g., at the time Nieuw Nederlandt or Nieu Nederlandt.

Kindly sign your posts by striking the tilde key four times. That way, we will have not only the names but also the datesl. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not be honest about it? The only reason why New Netherland (singular) is "correct" is because this is the Wiki-world, where the obscure triumphs. The seeking out of the arcane and the recondite is a hallmark of...well, not a hallmark of intellect, that's for sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.112.202 (talk) 02:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Compare adding one state to the United States. Would you name it The New United States, or The New United State? The singular form is far more plausible, for both logical and historical reasons, however in those days there was no official spelling yet. The pural The Netherlands referred to The Republic of The Seven United Netherlands (Holland, Brabant, Zeeland, Friesland etc). The New Netherland, would be one extra land (signifying country/territory), not multiple new lands, thus the singular would make more sense. Also the singular is found on most (all?) old maps/documents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KxxxvD (talk • contribs) 14:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

We're not talking about a new state: we're talking about a new colony in a new land collectively named for the homeland. In English, it would definitely be the "New United States" (if we went that route: we'd actually be more likely to just say "New America"). "The New Netherlands" just sounds much better than "New Netherland" given that there isn't actually any old singular Netherland in common use.

That said, it seems the scholarly and popular consensus generally backs the singular here (by about 2 to 1) and has for quite some time. Besides, the Dutch named their own country the plural Nederlanden and then named this colony singular Nederland: weird as it sounds in English, it's still right. — LlywelynII 13:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Establishment of trading posts

If the trading stations were consolidated in 1621, when were they established? --rmhermen

There *is* disagreement about this but a study by C.A. Weslager in 1961 provides, I believe, very persuasive evidence that the Dutch began with three settlements in the early 1620s:

1)"Fort Orange" near Albany,

2) a fort on the large island near Burlington, NJ, and

3) a fort near the mouth of the Connecticut River.

It appears that at first Burlington island was most promising and the governor's residence was established there, but, after a year or so, forces were consolidated at Manhattan. Later the Dutch established another fort in the Delaware, further downstream, near present-day Gloucester, called Fort Nassau and this was later used to challenge Sweden's attempts to colonize the lower Delaware.

The accompanying map shows Fort Nassau in Delaware, but omits the Albany NY location of the like-names Fort. Bruce.Olsen (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Sale of Manhattan

The sale of Manhattan is very poorly documented, as far as I know. Can the following be traced to a reliable source?

For example, the people from whom Minuit "bought" Manhattan did not live on the island, and probably thought that they were selling a share in the hunting rights."

Apparently the purchase of Manhattan may have predated Minuit's arrival (contradicting the story in all of our old textbooks that Miuit "bought Manhattan Island for $24!). And yes, it is pretty clear that buying land for exclusive ownership was a baffling concept for the Native Americans for the first several decades at least. The presents were interpreted as customary greeting gifts to establish good will and facilitate good-feeling and co-existence, rather than as any kind of purchase price for real property.

When Minuit arrived (at Burlington I.) the previous governor had just been overthrown and indicted (or convicted locally)for corruption or misrule and was to be sent back to Europe. Minuit was thereupon 'appointed' to take over as governor of the colony (apparently not his original aim in coming) and he affected the population transfer to Manhattan (somewhere between 1624 and 1626?).

After I review this material further and make some notes I will undertake a revision of this page.

reference: Weslager, Clinton Alfred, Dutch explorers, traders, and settlers in the Delaware Valley, 1609-1644. Philadelphia, University of Pennsylvania Press, 1961.

ArloBee 00:42 27 May 2003 (UTC)

A good discussion on the sale of Manhattan is found in Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace "Gotham. A History of New York City" 1999. see introduction xiv-xvi and the chapter "The men who bought Manhattan, 14-27. They document the roots of this myth. while also comparing with the better documented dutch purchase of staten Island. It was paid for not in guilders but trade goods such as axes, scissors, kettles and so on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlpo (talk • contribs) 14:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC) Carlpo (talk) 14:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).

Nova Belgica and Novi Belgii

The names Nova Belgica (from Gallia Belgica, the Roman province) and Novi Belgii have both been used, should we mention that? There seem to has been a mix up quite early in history between the names Belgica and Belgium -- moyogo 16:39, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)

Novi Belgii is the genitive of Novum Belgium; the plural of the latter would have been Novi Belgia - never used as far as I know. MWAK--84.27.81.59 15:54, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So the Novi Belgii part in the name of Image:Map-Novi Belgii Novæque Angliæ (Amsterdam, 1685).jpg is for "(map) of New Belgium" or something of the sort? --- moyogo

Exactly! :o) - just as Novæque Angliæ in this case (confusingly here the plural is identical to the genitive singular) means "and of New England" (Nova Anglia). The map is called tabula. Of course it might seem even more correct to use the standard word order and speak of Belgium Novum, but even in Antiquity this usage was common, as shown by names as Neapolis, Nova Carthago etc. You want to lure settlers by stressing everything is brand new...;o) --84.27.81.59 10:33, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Latin phrase "Tabula Novi Belgii Novæque Angliæ" can be analyzed thus:

"Tabula" = "map," with suffix indicating subject of the sentence, female gender.

"Novum Belgium" = "New Belgium," spelled as if it were the subject of a sentence, neuter gender. (Adjective's suffix must match that of the noun it's modifying.)

"Novi Belgii" = "New Belgium," with suffixes for genetive (possessive) case (map "of" New Belgium). (In the 17th Century, the lowland (Nether-land) provinces, Belgium and Luxembourg --:::: "BeNeLux" -- were united in their fight with Spain, much like US's 13 colonies. Catholic Belgium broke away peacefully later.)

"Nova Anglia" = "New England," spelled as if it were the subject of a sentence, female gender. (Why Belgium is neuter and Anglia is female is a question I leave for the next buttinsky.)

"que" = "and" -- not a word but a suffix attached to the last item in a list strung together with "and".

"Novæque Angliæ" = "and of New England," with suffixes for genetive (possessive) case. (Why not "Novæ Angliæque"? That would be "New and England.")

Now write it 100 times. -- Rick Wolff

Your Latin is excellent, but your analysis contains some factual inexactitudes. It suggests that already in the 17th century the name Belgium was used for the south alone, but then it was simply Latin for The Netherlands (itself meaning the Low Countries - all of them). The split between the Northern and Southern Netherlands was far from peaceful. The 17th century border - which is largely the present-day one - is simply a frontline. In 1815 the Low Countries were again reunited but after the Second French Revolution of 1830 there was an armed insurrection in the south. The Dutch army marched south to subdue the rebellion but was defeated by a French expedition force. Peace was only signed in 1839. MWAK--84.27.81.59 09:02, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Weren't the southern netherlands (belgium) occupied by the spanish/french during the colonization of NY?

They were under Habsburg rule--MWAK 07:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This part about the influence of Antwerp is bogus. Henry Hudson was hired by the Chamber of Amsterdam, and sailed from Amsterdam, hence the name New Amsterdam and hence the name New Netherlands. Nova Belgica is merely latin for New Netherlands, not for New Belgium. There was no (Old) Belgium yet. The current state of Belgium would not exist for another 220 years. Belgium separated from The Netherlands in 1830 and used the latin denomination of Julius Caesar (for an area currently situated partly in Belgium and partly in The Netherlands) to name themselves. This whole part about the inluence of Antwerp is not true. Antwerp is a flemish/dutch city and in 1610 they would have referred to themselves as either Dutch or Flemish and yes in latin as Belgica. However the same goes for Amsterdam, who in latin would have referred to themselves as a city in Belgica. The name België was chosen for Belgium in 1830, to have a name that would be acceptable to both Flemish and Walloon. Before 1830 Belgica referred to both current Belgium and The Netherlands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KxxxvD (talk • contribs) 13:59, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

is "factorijs" the correct plural?

"inland forts was to serve as fur trading outposts, called factorijs (factories)."

Being Dutch, I know that "factorij" is a Dutch word, and means trading outpost, but I think the plural form is factorijen. Was it spelled factorijs in the 17th century?

Yes. Both the -n and -s plurals existed for most words, standardisation only began later. --Jordi·✆ 16:07, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Nowadays factorijs is NOT correct, so I suggest this should be changed to "factorijen".

The thing is they were probably called factorijs back then. If it is the case we should mention it, as well as the fact that's it's 17th century Dutch. ---moyogo 12:33, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

Well, search google for factorijs; you'll only find this wikipedia article, and copies of it. The amount of results for "factorijen" make me think that "factorijen" is correct.

I've changed it. Factorijs -> factorijen

But why say factorij at all rather than just the English cognate factory? --Henrygb 15:36, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Pedantry. — LlywelynII 13:59, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Request to add geographical information to opening sentence

Can somebody add what this area currently is to the first sentence of the article? i.e. was the territory claimed by the United Provinces (the Netherlands) on the eastern coast of North America in the 17th century, corresponding to the present.... 218.103.132.85 16:51, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Russell Shorto's Book

The Author Russell Shorto has produced a book - based on the New Netherlands Project's work, and with their cooperation - that puts much of all this informationh between two covers. Doubleday published it in 1994, and it has been kept in print ever since. I put the information for the book in the Reference section.

SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 20:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Quite a good book at that. I've been planning on incorporating info from it here for a while, as there's currently a giant hole between initial settlement and turnover to the English, which New Amsterdam does a much better job covering right now. Unfortunately I'm rather busy now, but hopefully be able to edit here more soon. — Laura Scudder ☎ 00:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The book was published in March 2004, not 1994. It is a historical novel like The DaVinci Code. Need we say more? If Wikepedia wants to have any credibility it must focus on the neutral historical facts which ought to tell the story implicitly rather than opinionated or prejudiced story telling.

Historians may disagree with Shorto, a journalist, on interpretation, but it is not fair to call his book historical fiction. It is history based on research in primary and secondary sources and containing no fictional characters, episodes, etc.209.170.255.14 16:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Paul Otto

Copyvio in recent additions

So some of the recent additions were copyvio from http://www.tolerancepark.org/. Rather than try to sort through which parts are or are not copyvio right away, I've initially reverted all the additions. Tomorrow I'll go through and reinstate some of them as I check them individually. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

(Wikipedia Editor Laura Scudder protects this web site which belongs to broken history. It contains factual errors, misinformation, disinformation, and personal judgments which are irrelevant to New Netherland and would more properly belongs to the history of other colonies.)

Above comment by 162.84.142.161 was moved from the article. — Laura Scudder ☎ 22:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

OK Now I have found you. TolerancePark.org has been written by me, no one else. Everything is original research based on mostly primary, not secondary sources obtained from many libraries in many countries. DeKoning

Okay then. The only problem is that because this is such a legal liability for the Wikimedia Foundation, Wikipedia policy requires some confirmation that you are the copyright holder. There's instructions for that process near the top of WP:CP under "Copyright owners who submitted their own work to Wikipedia". — Laura Scudder ☎ 02:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

To understand those instructions one needs to hire a law firm or spend many hours figuring out what the site wants. Is there an easy way such as, e.g., sending you an e-mail from the site TolerancePark.org? What is your e-mail address? DeKoning. Mine at the web address is President@TolerancePark.org

They just need some confirmation that tolerancepark.org authorizes Wikipedia to use the text under the GFDL. The easiest way is an email from you to permissions at wikimedia dot org (with the at replaced by @ and so on), because then the foundation itself has the email for it's records. — Laura Scudder ☎ 06:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ms. Scudder, (1) I would like to replace the very confusing, wrongly colored, later issued Visscher map on the site with the earlier properly colored map of New Netherland on the TolerancePark.org site. That map I have also given to the NNP.org which should have it somewhere on its site. How can that be done?

(2) I would like to add one engraving of the east coast made by Willem Blaeu c. 1621; right underneath the Block map. I have that on my computer and, perhaps, it can be found somehwere else on the internet. Can it be imported from my computer? How do I do that?

(3) The Blaeu engraving on the New Netherland site (wrongly dated as from 1643 by Johannes Blaeu as it was engraved in 1635 by his father Willem Blaeu who died in 1638) is really the engraved version of the Block map, with west facing what is now ususally north. A better map would be the first ENGRAVED map depicting the three colonies from the 1625 book "New World",, second edition of 1630 by De Laet. What do you think? DeKoning

DONE!

From: president@tolerancepark.org [Save Address] [Block Sender] [Report Spam]

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This is to authorize that Wikimedia or Wikepedia is allowed to quote from www.TolerancePark.org or use its pictures with regard to New Netherland, New Amsterdam, Manhattan and Governors Island. If you have any questions please respond to President@TolerancePark.org

Ms. Scudder, May I now post the most recently corrected prose? DeKoning

The following is a discussion about a joker who made a deceptive map of New Sweden and insisted that it reigns on the New Netherland site. Because the map is meant to mislead, it doesn’t belong on either the New Sweden or New Netherland site. The New Sweden map wasn’t even on the New Sweden site so that is where I moved it to. Yet, a group of self-appointed Wikipedia editors, apparently more versed in computers or language rather than New Netherland history, insisted on putting the map back on the New Netherland site. The map evidences the dictatorship of ignorance with which these pages and New Netherland history are permeated. March 24, 2006, DeKoning:

New Sweden versus Virginia, New England, New Netherland

March 7, 2006; the map of New Sweden interposed on the New Netherland Wikipedia entry is not contemporary. It is of recent creation which (if at all, because of its interpretive purpose) belongs to an entry on Wikipedia about New Sweden (definitely not on the New Netherland page) which was established by various disenfranchised and disgruntled members of the Dutch West India Company (including Willem Usselincxs, Samuel Blommaert and Peter Minuit) under the auspices of the Swedish king. Petrus Stuyvesant had been ordered by the States General to retake the area which he did on September 25,1655, with a fleet of seven ships and a force comprising 317 soldiers and over 300 sailors. He was told to do "his utmost to revenge this misfortune not only by restoring matters to their former condition, but also by driving the Swedes at the same time from the river as they did to us". DEKONING —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

About the map

Hello Koning, and welcome to Wikipedia. Please do not keep removing the map of New Netherlands and New Sweden from the article again; it was probably made by a wikipedian for these two articles, so yes it is surely "of recent creation". Also, please DO NOT SHOUT on talk pages. And finally, please sign your comments. Thanks. //Big Adamsky 06:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Adamsky, The map of New Sweden is wrongly annotated and its interpretation is historically incorrect. It has therefore no comtemporary meaning unless you produce an engraved map of New Sweden engraved in that specific year 1650. Even then, the map belongs on the New Sweden site only and not on the New Netherland site. Please, be respectful. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

I promise to be respectful, however you have not yet convinced me as to how the map is not historical or does not belong in these two articles. The caption states that both areas are shown in relation to each other, so I don't see where else the map would belong. It is quite obvious that this map was created recently, and not created in the 17th century, like the paintings that are also in the article. Do not revert unless you can provide a better map yourself, otherwise you might be in violation of the three-revert rule. To sign your posting, just type four tildes (like this ~~~~). //Big Adamsky 17:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Adamsky, What is your interest in insisting on posting a modern interpretive map about New Sweden on a New Netherland site? If people want to know about New Sweden they can go to that Wikipedia site without any problem. The three maps (did you call them paintings?) on the New Netherland site are of the 17th century and NOT, as you appear to claim, from a later date. Not only are you disrespectful of the New Netherland site but you are also ruinous of its integrity and therefore guilty of vandalism. If you read the historical facts carefully, then you know that your modern New Sweden map's caption is erroneous because of, what you say, "both areas are shown in relation to each other". You may need to study history a bit more to understand that one area was situated temporarily contained in another one rather than being (wrongly colored) separate geo-political sections. If you are an expert on New Sweden history, please, focus on that site. I hope that Wikipedia editor Laura Scudder ☎ will be able to do something about that. Respectfully yours, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

There isn't any rule in wikipedia that only historical maps are used as illustration. On the contrary: new maps drawn by wikipedians are encouraged. As Adamsky said the disputed drawing is not a New Sweden map but shows the two colonies together so it is certainly useful for both articles. If you think the map factually incorrect please give us clear explanations and make a better one correcting the mistakes. Zello 21:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Zello, New Sweden was a transitory interposition in geo-political New Netherland. A 1648 manuscript map, engraved by Jan Jansson in 1650 may illuminate this point. New Sweden was not an adjoining complement to New Netherland as your modern interpretive map seems to want to tell with its opposite, disparate coloring. If you want to make the public believe your interpretation or would like to debate this further, you ought to do that on the Wikipedia New Sweden site. Similalry, there would be no place for modern, interpretive maps of New Holland (now Cape Cod) or New Netherland on the Wikipedia New England site. Let New England deal with its own history. Respect the history of the various colonies and don't superimpose them on top of one another to try to make a subjective point. I can't give you a clearer explanation than this. Your map requires to be on the New Sweden site only, i.e., not on the Virginia, not on the New England and not on the New Netherland site. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

BKonrad/Zello/BigAdamsky: New Sweden was not based on (1) first discovery, (2) original exploration, surveying and mapping; and (3) first settlement. It was based on the initiative of various West India Company directors with prior New Netherland experience selling their services to Sweden. New Sweden was therefore an interjection in New Netherland and not a complement to New Netherland. The New Sweden map you are insisting on publishing on the New Netherland site should be only on the New Sweden site as that is the site that pertains to your argument which you are trying to support by your modern deception. Putting the New Sweden map on the New Netherland site belongs to broken history and is historically false. If you continue to post that map, it will be transferred to the New Sweden site. Respectfully yours. March 19, 2006, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

The two colonies were in war with each other and their history closely intertwined so we have to know their respective geographical position. The map is useful for the reader. As for the legal status of New Sweden - I think this question is rather out of date now after 350 years. Maps can obviously represent illegal things (for example Hitler's conquests etc.) Zello 18:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The point is that it doesn't show their respective geographical positions. You need to make a new map. March 19, 2006, DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

What is the problem with their geographical position? Zello 23:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who can read and understand the above can easily figure out that the map does NOT show the relative positions of New Netherland and New Sweden. Therefore, this map must go from the New Netherland site. March 19, 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

Sorry, but all I can see above is incoherent rambling, bordering on ranting. Perhaps that is somewhat understandable as it seems that English may not be your first language. But I really do not at all understand your objections. I'm not sure if anyone has pointed out the Three Revert Rule, but you have reverted many times over this matter. Please discuss your objections on the talk pages before continuing to revert (and remove this image). I am not threatening you (I rarely block and then only for overt vandalism), but you may find yourself blocked if you continue to revert the page. older ≠ wiser 04:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

BKonrad, this is not about an objection. It is plainly wrong. This may be because you are visually or geographically impaired or lack even the most basic understanding of history and therefore can't understand. The map does not reflect the historical facts and that has nothing to do with my English which is rather proficient as many articles can attest to. You are just a very sloppy reader. It is so simple; New Sweden lied inside New Netherland not next to it. DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeKoning (talk • contribs)

The map clearly isn't showing areas claimed, but areas occupied. If it was only showing claims then the whole thing should be marked Spanish. — Laura Scudder ☎ 05:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Koning, try harder to assume good faith on my part; I have no particular "interest" in promoting this map for this article, other than that I see nothing wrong with it and none of the objections which you have advanced make any sense to me whatsoever. Before you continue this "battle", you should read the Wikipedia policies concerning article ownership, how to properly sign your talk page comments and how to convince other editors that you are right and they are wrong (you won't need to read through every single paragraph, just skim those pages so you understand how this whole collaborative project is supposed to work). I have added a request for a new map atop this talk page and reinserted the current map, since I feel that the reader of this article should have a map to go with the text, and the older maps contain many minor cartographical inaccuracies (due to the technological limitations of their era). Please, do help Wikipedia by sharing your knowledge on this subject, but do not make odd accusations when trying to prove a point. //Big Adamsky 08:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Konig, I second Big Adamsky's comments. You have not explained what your objection to the map is in any terms that are intelligible to others. Please, don't take this personally. If there is any legitimate basis for your objections we want to understand. But what you have presented so far has made no sense at all. older ≠ wiser 13:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The inability to associate text with graphics is a common deficiency among people. That is simply because so many people go through life being visually unaware. Perhaps my argument may best be explained by the analogy that, during the cold war, a part of West Germany, in the form of West Berlin, lied inside East Germany. I.e., Geographically, West Berlin was not adjacent to East Germany. Perhaps it could be so depicted as a complement to East Germany if one were to draw a population density map instead. For example, America cannot be geographically depicted as an East and West coast only because certain states have negligible population (North Dakota). Therefore, the New Sweden map is neither a historical geographical map nor a population density map and by default is an erroneous depiction. Namely:

New Netherland’s southern border started at Cape Hinlopen, just south of the Delaware Bay and so surveyed and mapped by Cornelis Hendricksz between 1613 and 1616 (the map still exists) and in 1620 by Cornelis Jacobsz May. May became New Netherland’s first director in 1624. Samuel Godijn, a director of the West India Company, had a patent for the west side of the South (Delaware) River where he built a fort and established the colony of a few dozen men at Swanendael in 1630. At least 32 of them if not all were killed by the Indians in 1632. The colony’s focus had been on the whaling industry. Another director, Albert Coenraetsz Burgh had a patent for the east side of the river. The origin and disappearance of New Netherland and New Sweden are very different and therefore need to be discussed on their own pages.

Frankly, the Wikipedia pages on 17th-century New Netherland as well as New Sweden and its associated pages have been and are still very lacking in archival truth. I have made an honest beginning with regard to the New Netherland page and some associated pages. But many of them still contain erroneous, misleading secondary information, so repeated through the ages, of prejudicial or no value to Wikipedia’s readers. I now know why no serious historian or earnest person will spend the time and effort required to make this encyclopedia a useful tool.

Having to deal with computer hackers without primary expertise or understanding on the subject matter and having nothing else to do than prejudicially torpedoing other persons’ contributions is not a winnable recipe. For BKonrad to threaten me with a childish “three strikes and you’re out” lockout is evidence of the despotic nature of this ignorance with which these Wikipedia pages are imbued.

Therefore, for as long as that New Sweden map is on the New Netherland site I will refrain from any more contributions. I will no longer remove it. I am sure that someone else will put it back. But, after today, it is entirely up to others to invite me back by removing the New Sweden map from the New Netherland site. I won’t spend one more minute on this as being a computer hacker is not my passion. DeKoning, March 20, 2006

You would gain respect more readily if you did not insult people who are trying to understand what you are trying to say. I DID NOT threaten you. You complain about others lack in reading skills and yet you willfully misread and misconstrue what I wrote. I was simply pointing out the the existing rule here on Wikipedia. I EXPLICITLY said I would not block you. If this is the best that you can do for substantive argument, there's not much to discuss.older ≠ wiser 17:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm, what can I say? DeKoning, you may have valuable knowledge to contribute, but before you can start sharing you have quite a bit to learn about cooperation, discussion, consensus-seeking and related people skills. Your factual input may or may not be missed, but your petty accusations and insults have no place in here. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 20:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You have behaved like a pack of bull terriers unwilling to read and understand my objective, well-supported arguments for the immediate and permanent removal of a map that serve no function on the New Netherland site as it is incongruous. Cooperation, discussion, consensus-seeking and related people skills are a two-way street, not a one-way attack. To dismiss my effort to make you understand something and calling it “incoherent rambling, bordering on ranting” is indeed a petty accusation and insulting. DeKoning March 20, 2006

I agree completely that discussion and consensus-seeking is a two-way street. Along those lines I would like to point out for future disputes that, while addressing the merits of someone's argument is productive, comments attacking another's motives or abilities are not. This may have progressed to the point where everyone's firmly entrenched in their own opinion and unwilling to really listen to the other side, but hopefully we can try stick to the actual issue under dispute.

With that in mind, let me try to summarize the issue. As I understand it, DeKoning believes

that a map showing New Sweden doesn't belong on an article on New Netherland because it was transient, unsupported be formal claims, and founded by former New Netherlanders
that any such map should show New Sweden surrounded by New Netherland based on suverys and claims made by the Dutch.

Is that about right, DeKoning?

If I understand correctly, on the other side Zello argues to point (1) that as they fought and interacted much with each other a map showing both is relevant to this article regardless of New Sweden's legal status. To point (2) I argue that the map shows actual settlement rather than claims.

Now, I'm not sure I understand exactly DeKoning's counterargument to Zello or me, and it seems to me that Big Adamsky and Bkonrad are looking for such responses. Could you please address those two points specifically?— Laura Scudder ☎ 00:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Before I run off for the night, let me add questions directed more towards possible solutions rather than problems.

What about the map or the way it's used in the article would have to change, DeKoning, for you to be okay with it being in the article?
How would everyone feel if the caption was changed to point out that the map shows areas of settlement?
How about if instead the map was changed to show New Sweden surrounded by New Netherland's claimed territory?

— Laura Scudder ☎ 01:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a good idea to draw another map which shows all the claimed territory of New Netherland together with the actually settled territories (probably with darker and lighter hues). Changing the present map to show New Sweden surrounded by New Netherland seems a bit misleading to me because of mixing the two points of view (ie. actual settlement and claims). Changing the caption is absolutely OK for me. Zello 08:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I personally think that changing the caption at the minimum would help the reader. Your idea sounds pretty good, but I'm trying to picture how the colors would work. Maybe if the only effective change was to draw a colored line around the Dutch claim? That would make it obvious that New Sweden was located in New Netherland's claim, while still showing the settlement of both withini that area. — Laura Scudder ☎ 14:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with DeKoning, the picture isn't appropriate for an article about New Netherland. Especially since the actual article doesn't even mention New Sweden. And even if the article were to mention New Sweden, it would have to be more than in just one or two sentences to warrant a picture as large as this one. It is quite an interesting subject though, the history of New Sweden vis-à-vis New Netherland and probably deserves it's own article, and that article would be the proper place for the picture, not New Netherland.

If people want to see a map showing the New Netherland settlements overlaid on a contemporary map of the US, I'd be willing to make one. Dedden 19:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

New map

How about this one? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nieuw_Nederland.png. Dedden 11:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I like it, especially the added context to the east and more settlements labelled.— Laura Scudder ☎ 18:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't get it at all. What is the reason for this new map, what is it meant to convey? The original contemporary 1650 Jansson map or the 1651 "emendata" Visscher map is infinitely better and more detailed and already contains the names mentioned on this new modern map. The Visscher map is all one would need as an authentic companion to the text and is already part of the New Netherland article. Why do we need, again, another modern map with errors and omissions like the modern New Netherland/New Sweden map which I have tried to purge from the article because it is conceptually flawed? What is the need for a modern map that repeats what is already there, i.e. the Visscher map (even though later and incorrectly colored. I had suggested to Ms. Scudder to replace it with a properly colored one)? Moreover, the whole point of this discussion has been that the Wikipedia editors, by insisting on the posting of the incorrect New Sweden/New Netherland map, used their power to be sole arbiters of cartographic information on New Netherland and New Sweden at the expense of reason and historical facts. Even though they didn't come up with or advanced any convincing arguments which would warrant the defense of the colored sections on that modern New Sweden/New Netherland map, their actions have now superseded history by pretending to know the precise position and exact geographical borders of New Sweden while misrepresenting the geographical reality of New Netherland. I had argued that New Sweden's relative coloration had no geographical relevance with regard to New Netherland and also is erroneous as to New Sweden because its borders are indeterminable. New Sweden can only be defined by its forts; not by borders. New Netherland, though, had defined coastal borders. This new modern map, however well intended by Dedden, doesn't solve the debate and would only clutter up the article, like the flawed New Sweden map is now doing. This discussion has never been about Wikipedia readers wanting "to see a map showing the New Netherland settlements overlaid on a contemporary map of the US". For that it is wholly inadequate or wanting. It had to do with Wikipedia editors wanting their way in spite of their cartographic posting being nonsensical. I had read somewhere that posting nonsense was an act of vandalism. Why do I have to uphold the integrity of an article if editors can randomly post misinformation not worthy of an encyclopedia? We don't need a new map, we only need to remove an incorrect map. DeKoning, April 30, 2006

I personally think that it illustrates the positions of settlements for a modern reader much more clearly than the contemporary maps. If you think we should use another Visscher map, then the first step would be to find a picture of the appropriate one online. — Laura Scudder ☎ 03:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Ms. Scudder, I can't start a new discussion with you on the pros and cons of the newest of new maps about New Netherland for modern readers. There are already hundreds of those existing as you can see, for example, on http://www.nnp.org/newvtour. I have previously told you that the correctly colored Visscher map was on that site which was taken from an orginally colored map which I own and which is also on http://tolerancepark.org/_wsn/page2.html/ and that you could use it for the Wikipedia New Netherland article. As you know, I have pledged to not contribute any longer to the article for as long as the modern New Sweden/New Netherland map is posted there by Wikipedia editors. Frankly, I am worn out on this subject and too frustrated to continue with this. Please post nonsense. Wikipedia and its readers deserve it. May 1, 2006,. DeKoning

No one is preventing you from replacing the Jansson-Visscher. See Wikipedia:Uploading images for information on how to (I'm personally not particularly inclined to do it myself right now). — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Since Dedden's map seems to address eveyone's objections except DeKoning, I've been bold and switched to it. — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Dedden's map achieves next to nothing compared to contemporary maps. It doesn't even mention New Netherland's southern border at Cape Hinlopen on the 38th degree latitude nor the northern border at 42nd degrees named New Holland (now the Cape). How can this map "address everyone's objections" as I was the only one who objected to the erroneous modern map the wikipedia editors insisted on posting? The map was a historical fraud. Yet, everyone was defending the incorrectly colored deliniations of the New Netherland-New Sweden map. Deddens map doesn't accomplish anything other than showing a few scattered names overlaid on a modern map. It is irrelevant to the discussion we have had on the subject. There are more than two dozen contemporary maps of New Netherland. Why the Dedden map is posted is beyond me as Dedden's map would need serious scholarly work to be of any use to a wikipedia reader. DeKoning 14:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I think one of the unspoken reasons for this dispute is that DeKoning believes that contemporary (i.e. 17th century) maps ought to be adequate to illustrate this article. I would strongly disagree with this assertion, for a number of reasons:

Advances in cartography mean that such maps are not fully accurate in their descriptions of coastlines and major features.
Modern readers are much more accustomed to the design conventions of modern maps and have more difficulty processing and understanding the information from 17th century maps.
The 17th century maps do not make a distinction which ought to be of high importance to the modern reader and historian: the distinction between claims and settlement. The sweeping claims made by the Dutch at the beginning of the colonization process brought a huge stretch of land under the Netherlands' theoretical sovereigntly. These claims conflicted with the claims of other European powers, and thousands of Native Americans continued along their way not realizing that they lived in land claimed by a faraway country. The very reason that New Sweden was able to be settled was that the Dutch had not established firm control over the area. A contemporary map can show the distinction between the Dutch claim and the land that the Dutch actually settled. --Jfruh (talk) 15:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Removal of the fraudulent New Sweden map

Following the New Sweden map discussion above, I have removed the New Sweden map once more. (1) New Sweden was an ephemeral insert in New Netherland. The latter was founded on very specific principles which didn’t include armchair claims, military conquest or trespass. The three-step process of discovery, intensive and systematic exploration and mapping, followed by initial settlement was the basis for the geographical claim of New Netherland between the 38th and 42nd parallels. (2) New Sweden was not founded on those principles and therefore didn’t have defined geographical borders. The geography of New Sweden can therefore not be drawn on an imagined geographical map made in the 21st century as it couldn’t be drawn in 1650 thus. The New Sweden map is therefore spurious. (3) A modern map, perhaps meant to show New Sweden’s population (of a little over 200 persons), would require precise knowledge of the location of each house, if they ever lived in houses rather than forts. There are no population records based on a New Sweden census. Hence, a population distribution map can also not be made. (4) Therefore, what remains is the possibility of making a map that depicts the position of the various New Sweden forts only. Such a map, however, belongs on the New Sweden article and not on the New Netherland article. For example, the Wikipedia New England article should not be required to carry in its text oversized geographical or fortification maps of New France and New Netherland as they would be impertinent to New England. (5) This tenet should be valid for the New Netherland article as well. For those Wikipedia editors who feel strongly about vandalizing the New Netherland article with an incorrect and fraudulent New Sweden map, they ought to be held accountable for providing a fully supported, convincing rationale as the basis for including such an intrusion. DeKoning April 6, 2006

Contrary to Zello’s belief, Wikipedia articles are not based on majority rule. One thousand colorblind editors asserting that grass is red will lose against one contributor who proves it to be green based on historical and scientific precedent. Removed map put up by Zello because he didn't substantiate the placement. DeKoning April 7, 2006; Removed again because of Big Adamsky's unsubstantiated posting.DeKoning April 7, 2006. Because the map is neither a cartographic portrayal of New Netherland nor of New Sweden, the caption “relative location of New Netherland and New Sweden” is nonsensical. Reversed Zello's misplaced, erroneous New Sweden posting. DeKoning April 8, 2006.

manif@hotmail.com vandalized again the New Netherland article by posting an untrue New Sweden map which is falsely created and an unequivocal historical corruption. This intrusion by “manif” cannot be justified in any way on scholarly or geo historical grounds. The map’s flawed creation, its erroneous caption and its unjustified insertion on the New Netherland article is either a deliberate attempt to corrupt the article and to deceive the reader. “Manif” must prove that the map is errorless as a geographical depiction, that its caption can be defended academically and that placing an erroneous map in the wrong article is a Wikipedia objective. The New Sweden map was removed. April 8, 2006, DeKoning

Once again, DeKoning, I ask you to assume good faith and not attack other editors' motives. It seems to me others think that this map is helpful to the reader even if it is not perfect, and would like to see it in the article until a better map is presented. Personal attacks are not an effective way of convincing other editors. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:21, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Ms. Scudder, This has nothing to do with personal attacks. It is as I said before: "the map is neither a cartographic portrayal of New Netherland nor of New Sweden, the caption “relative location of New Netherland and New Sweden” is nonsensical". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.224.88 (talk) 18:45, 9 April 2006

My comments on your behavior were entirely aside from the map issue. I am simply asking that in the future you try to limit yourself to the issues and leave off attacking other editors' motives. — Laura Scudder ☎ 01:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't care less about editors' motives as long as the information they post is correct; i.e., fully substantiated or supported with reason in the face of being challenged factually. My behavior is solely about the issue itself and certainly not personal. If one takes it personally, that is not my problem. My efforts are directed at achieving a sense of historical integrity for which I am holding these editors accountable. Power games and threats by these editors who seem to insist on not wanting to know, to understand or, alternatively, are unwilling or incapable of understanding should be discouraged. If their posts (like the New Netherland/New Sweden map) are purely for reason of personal motive rather than the Wikipedia readers’ edification, that's fine with me. Yet, they should not be relieved from having to embrace what is truthful or supportable. I.e., personal motive AND gobbledygook are out. The entire discussion above is about ONE issue only: the editors' appropriateness of insisting on posting a map which even Big Adamsky finally admitted is wrong. He thinks however, like the other editors seemingly, that it is fine to post wrong information until the right information comes along. Frankly, that is appalling and unacceptable. Must Wikipedia readers be presented with gibberish (which therefore is a deliberate deception) until correct information becomes available or, in this case, a "correct map will be available". I have only one question all along during this discussion: What could possibly justify the insistent posting of a nonsensical New Netherland/New Sweden map? Why are you insisting on knowingly posting a distorted cartographic fabrication? April 10, 2006 DeKoning —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.224.88 (talk) 03:03, 10 April 2006

Hi, I'm not at all aware of this conflict, I just patrol the recent changes and assumed the anon was removing a picture , to test his edit options, that's why I reverted. manif@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.224.88 (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2006 [1]

This reply from Manif@hotmail.com, upon my inquiry to him, demonstrates the haphazardness and carelessness by which these Wikipedia articles are composed. Manif put the flawed New Netherland/New Sweden map back on the article while not having seen it or participated in the discussion why it didn’t belong there. He had no understanding of the subject matter and probably had never even heard of New Netherland or New Sweden. Yet, his post of the map is seen by others as legitimate input. I suspect that this is valid for lots of editors without fundamental knowledge of New Netherland because, not too long ago, the New Netherland article was an embarrassment for an encyclopedia. Yet, most new input, founded in academic, archival knowledge, was questioned, attacked or removed. The New Netherland article was mostly defined by external and peripheral stories such as, for example, stroke-of-the-pen armchair claims by an English king, an Italian explorer who had never explored, a modern New Netherland-New Sweden map with fabricated geographical borders. These tales had nothing to do with New Netherland and therefore should not have been posted on the article. Moreover, the text was plagued with fragments from historical novels and subjective or culturally biased judgments from secondary sources about the main historical characters. The legendary heroes who had dealt with unbelievable adversity to build the foundation of this nation and its largest city were disrespectfully insulted or dismissed as extraneous: Whether it was Verhulst, Minuit, Van Twiller, Kieft or Stuyvesant, they were all ghastly people, unpopular and apparently intently resented by the population, so much so that the 1664 English invasion was welcomed by the population with open arms, if you would like to believe the article. The fact that the disputed New Sweden map is back on the article is confirmation that there is no one out there willing to maintain even a minimum standard of credibility that is worthy of an encyclopedia or to take the New Netherland article seriously. DeKoning April 10, 2006

Laura Scudder ☎ writes on 27 April 2006 (UTC): Do not add unreasonable contents into any articles text that is not related to an article's subject. Both adding such unreasonable information and editing articles maliciously are considered vandalism. If you have any questions, ask me on my Talk page. I will answer your questions as far as I can!

My response to this is why do you insist on posting a gigantic modern map that is either an uninformed creation by an amateur or a deliberate deception which should have no room in an encyclopedia or on an article of New Netherland or, for that matter, of New Sweden. Doesn't your contribution qualify as unreasonable information and malicious editing? April 28, 2006. DeKoning

It looked to me like the consensus was to keep the map until a more suitable replacement is created, and so I have been doing so. If this is no longer the consensus, or if I am misinterpreting previous discussions, I invite the other contributors to set me straight.

Lastly, I'm getting tired of reminding you that your aggressive tone is counterproductive as it does not exactly encourage other editors to read your opinions with an open mind. If you think I am editing maliciously, you are perfectly welcome to pursue Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. — Laura Scudder ☎ 21:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Your perception of my aggressive tone is dictated solely by your frustration with my unwillingness to concede to the despotism of about three persons with no historical, cartographic or geographical knowledge of the subject matter and who, under the cloak of “consensus”, are perpetuating an intolerable condition to exist on the New Netherland article. I realize that you "are getting tired of reminding me" but you should also realize that I am equally "getting tired of reminding others" that they have a responsibility and must try to understand something of which they have no knowledge of understanding. I realize that my persistent efforts to open their eyes can only be construed by them, or you, as "aggressive". However, there is no other way to get rid of that ridiculous map other than by continuing to present or explain the rationale for its immediate removal. Frankly, I am awed by your apparent singular power in this matter by overruling reason and argument in favor of superficial consensus. As with Manif@Hotmail (see above), I have no confidence that the three persons, who you state represent a "consensus", have any knowledge or understanding of the subject matter at all. They have not proven to possess such knowledge yet are insisting the map's inclusion on vague notions that the map is a nice or useful map; for whom? In the land of the blind... April 29, 2006. DeKoning

Stuyvesant's popularity

Ms. Scudder writes: “They met minimal resistance, perhaps because of the unpopularity of Stuyvesant”. This is a judgmental, subjective statement not founded in the historical facts. DeKoning

I based that off of many statements in Russell Shorto's book. If you have any citations of scholarly dispute on that point, I'm perfectly open to them. I have simply not yet read a work that didn't take his unpopularity at that point for granted. — Laura Scudder ☎ 05:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I noticed many entries based on historical novels. Scary (scholary) input. Again, I won't contribute unless the New Sweden map disappears from the New Netherland site. The inability to fight the English incursion had nothing to do with the popularity of one man, even Stuyvesant. Be that as it may, I am losing interest in discussing absurdities put up by unqualified people and correcting ignorance. DeKoning

I agree with you that Shorto's book is certainly a popular rather than scholarly work, but that does not mean it's either fiction or ungrounded in the scholarship. I also agree that whether Stuyvesant was popular or not they couldn't fight the inevitable conquest of the English, but they might have yielded a little more happily due to it. That is the intimation of that addition.

Also, I believe I already discussed how unhelpful attacking another's abilities is when trying to write a collaborative encyclopedia. The more effective way to convince someone is to provide scholarly citations. I am always happy to read further on this subject, so I'm looking forward to any new material with additional information you can point me to. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully I have cleared up the meaning of that sentence. An earlier paragraph established that there was almost no military to resist the English. That paragraph is meant to convey that they met almost no civilian resistance either and offer that it is perhaps because — as demonstrated by the multitude of documents written against various Director-Generals — they were already unhappy with their government. Did that change help clarify the meaning? — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

There was only one director-general which was Stuyvesant who was never governor of New Netherland even though he was governor of Curacao. All others were just (local company) directors. As you suggested, the contents of the New Netherland article ought to be based on scholarly citations which, in turn, ought to be based on original archival records. Citations by scholars and academicians who base their writings and conclusions on erroneous secondary information, novels or deficient research should have no room on this page. Even the many English translations from the original Dutch are full of errors and evidence of Anglo-centric bias. Therefore, what is popularly known about New Netherland in three hundred years of writings is filled with Anglo-centric falsehoods which qualify as nonsense. It also finds its way onto these sites. Like, for example, on the New Amsterdam article whereon the notion is proclaimed that New Netherland was exchanged for just the tiny English island of Run situated within the Dutch East Indies. This info comes straight from the most prejudiced historical novel one could read about the subject; "Nathaniel's Nutmeg". Someone more clear headed than that Wikipedia contributor added Suriname to the swap than just Run. But why not read the original Treaty of Breda before making any entry? If the basic information on an article is already flawed to start with, why must one battle to get rid of it because the ones who put it there insist on writing fairy tales or making others believe their tales? What will you get of America's 21st-century history written entirely by citing "Arab" scholars on the subject?.

Compare your statement on the article: “They met minimal resistance from the citizens, perhaps because of the unpopularity of Stuyvesant” with Stuyvesant’s 1665 report:

“Had your formerly dutiful, but now afflicted inhabitants, on the supplicatory remonstrances of the people and our own so iterated entreaties, which must be considered almost innumerable, been helped with the long sought for settlement of the boundary, or in default thereof had they been seconded with the oft besought reinforcement of men and ships against the continual troubles, threats, encroachments and invasions of the English neighbors and government of Hartford Colony, our too powerful enemies. That assistance, nevertheless, appears to have been retarded so long that our abovementioned too powerful neighbors and enemies found themselves reinforced by four royal ships, crammed full with an extraordinary amount of men and warlike stores. Our ancient enemies throughout the whole of Long Island, both from the east end and from the villages belonging to us united with them, hemmed us by water and by land, and cut off all supplies. Powder and provisions failing, and no relief nor reinforcement being expected, we were necessitated to come to terms with the enemy, not through negelect of duty or cowardice, as many, more from passion than knowledge of the facts, have decided, but in consequence of an absolute impossibility to defend their fort, much less the city of New Amsterdam, and still less the country.”…

“many verbal warnings came from diverse country people on Long Island, who daily noticed the growing and increasing strength of the English, and gathered from their talk that their business was not only with New Netherland but with the booty and plunder, and for these were they called out and enrolled. Which was afterwards confirmed not only by the dissolute English soldiery, but even by the most steady officers and by a striking example exhibited to the colonists of New Amstel on the South Delaware River, who, notwithstanding they had offered no resistance, but requested good terms, could not obtain them, but were invaded, stripped, utterly plundered and many of them sold as slaves to Virginia”.

Do you really believe that Stuyvesant’s alleged unpopularity had anything to do with New Netherland’s provisional surrender (an Anglo centric view?). April 5, 2006 DeKoning

I am confused by your approach here DeKoning. Ms. Scudder has repeatedly indicated that she has no ideological ax to grind and is happy to include alternate evaluations and interpretations if you can produce cited references from published works, scholarly or popular. Yet you refuse to do so and now print at length primary research when primary research is a well-establish no-no for Wikipedia. Wiki has rules. Discussion pages are for discussing the article within the context of those rules, not for airing your personal dissent from published works. If you disagree, find a history that refutes the point. Or get one published yourself. 96.232.218.69 (talk) 14:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Exploration (Verrazano)

The article about New Netherland, section "Exploration" is prefaced as follows:

“The coast of New Netherland was previously explored in 1524 by Giovanni da Verrazano, whose expedition was financed by the citizens of Lyon, France, under the auspices of King François I. Despite this, the area was mostly ignored by Europeans for a long time afterwards.”

This claim is entirely based on just 25 words purportedly written in a log book based on what Verrazano observed: “We entered up the said river into the land about half a league, where it made a most pleasant lake about three leagues in compass.”

(1) There is, however, no record of any soundings, latitude calculations, surveys or maps or even a sensible textual description of any part of the New Netherland coast. To say that he “explored” the New Netherland coast is nothing less than a myth.

(2) To credit him with discovering New York harbor by sailing through the narrows or observing the harbor from afar is also a falsehood as the flimsy description does not support the geographical reality. Namely, his observed “lake” (ostensibly New York harbor) was not preceded by a river.

The preface, therefore, has no validity on the New Netherland article as the statement is false and its conclusion irrelevant. I removed it on April 3, 2006, DeKoning

The Adriaen Block map of 1614, belongs to the section Exploration. The oversized New Sweden map is irrelevant to that section in particular and to the New Netherland site in general as discussed above. Its overshadowing presence has no function other than to present an erroneous message.

Since the preface paragraph makes no claims as to Verrazano (1) making sounding, calculations, or maps or (2) discovering New York Harbor, I don't think I understand why you think the paragraph has no validity. I'm just confused because it seems to me that he can perfectly well have explored the coast without doing either of those things. — Laura Scudder ☎ 05:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

He merely sailed northwards along the eastern coastline, made one landing (nobody knows where exactly), and moved on. As you said, he "can pefectly well have explored the coast" but there is no textual proof or visual evidence. Seeing the moon doesn't mean one has EXPLORED the moon. It takes more to qualify as an explorer than just seeing. For Verrazano to sail along the coast and to see a "lake" should not bestow him with the honor of being quoted on the New Netherland article with having explored the coast line from Cape Hinlopen to Cape Cod, the New Netherland coastline, or to have discovered New York harbor. He simply did not EXPLORE the New Netherland coast line as the statement is based on zero evidence. DeKoning April 6, 2006

You take my quote out of context. My point is that for one to have explored a new territory it is not necessary for one to have made any special measurements or produced some set amount of documentation. I have no special investment in whether Verrazano explored the coastline; I am merely pointing out that your definition of explore seems to be overly rigorous. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Exploring has to do with inquiring, examining, studying, searching or investigating systematically. With regard to the New Netherland coast line, Verrazano can not be called an explorer at all. The one explorer who more than deserves that title is only Adriaen Block. I didn't know it was your quote but it certainly doesn't measure up to the definition of exploring, even if defined as "slightly" rigorous. DeKoning

I suppose one could debate the meaning of exploring, but professional historians have described Verrazzano and other 16th-century mariners "investigating" the North American coast as explorers. As to whether or not Verrazzano "explored" New York Bay, a careful examination of the cartographic evidence (see Stokes, The Iconography of Manhattan Island) would support such a claim. I repeat this claim in the first chapter of my book where I identify two other "explorers" of the region after Verrazzano and before Henry Hudson.209.170.255.14 16:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Paul Otto

Flushing Remonstrance

I have removed the paragraph below from the heading "English Incursions" as it has no relevance there. Frankly, the Flushing Remonstrance is something that belongs particulary to Stuyvesant, not New Netherland. Therefore, it should be discussed on the Petrus Stuyvesant page. It is a difficult to understand, complex, idiosyncratic subject matter and requires historical, contextual understanding of both Stuyvesant, New Netherland and patria. DeKoning April 6, 2006

"The Flushing Remonstrance objected among other things to his ban on Quakers as an infringement on the religious freedom of fellow Christians and Dutch citizens. The capture of the city resulted in the Second Anglo-Dutch War between England and the Dutch Republic."

"Belgium" stuff is confusing

While I suppose it's necessary to have it somewhere to keep things clear, it seems very odd to me as a casual reader that so much of the lead paragraph of this article is dedicated to explicating the fact that "Belgium" in the 17th century was used for the modern Netherlands. The lead should be a succinct summary of what the article is about -- this is not a primary issue. Is it really necessary to use the Lating name in the lead at all? Can't this material be moved to a footnote or something? --Jfruh (talk) 01:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The information is interesting and belongs in Wikipedia but not at this article. If there is no objection, I will move the nomenclature info to Dutch Republic and Southern Netherlands and change the intro paragraph here to the following:

New Netherland (Dutch: Nieuw-Nederland, Latin: Novum Belgium or Nova Belgica), 1614–1674, was the territory on the eastern coast of North America in the 17th century which stretched from latitude 38 to 45 degrees north as originally claimed for and on behalf of the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands, also known as the Dutch Republic.

AjaxSmack 06:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree wholly as in nearly ALL the maps of New Netherland (many dozens) the Latin Appelation of Novum Belgium, Novi Belgii, Novo Belgico etc. was used. New Netherland can therefore only be understood in that geographical and historical context. Without that historical and geographical link, the province of New Netherland in North America cannot be understood by anyone as they will confuse the current Kingdom of Belgium with New Netherland as an extension of the Dutch Republic or Belgium Feoderatum. DeKoning

I don't think the information should be excised from the article; I just don't think it should be in the lead paragraph. I assume that by "nearly ALL the maps (many dozens)" you mean maps that were produced in the 17th century? The vast majority of the readers of this article will encounter only modern maps that will label the colony as New Netherland. There should be a separate section in the article explaining the Latinate name and the potential confusion between the 17th and post-19th century uses of the word "Belgium," but this is not the most important thing about the colony and thus should not be at the beginning of the article. --Jfruh (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I've moved this material to the bottom. I've also removed some historical problems. The southern Netherlands were not generally referred to as "Belgium" until after 1830, and then as a deliberately archaizing move. --Jfruh (talk) 15:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

comment moved from article

This change of degrees latitude from historical fact to a shot in the dark by 24.140.20.205 is unfounded and cannnot be supported in any way. The correct degrees latitude was supported by a link to slides of contemporary period maps which was removed by Laura Scudder on August 18 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.148.137 (talk) 15:46, 15 September 2006

Voiding maritime law

Eh? When all private contracts were invalidated, didn't that have the opposite effec from voiding maritime law? Jim.henderson 17:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Dutch Legacy: What about Dutch traces in the American English language?

Aren't f.i. words like "cookie" ("koekje") or "Santa Claus" ("Sant Nikerlaas") derived from Dutch? I think this is missing in the article

Explanation of "New Netherland" in the singular?

I would like to suggest that someone provide an explanation of the dreadful convention of using "New Netherland" instead of "New Netherlands". Surely I'm not the only one that finds this usage unappealing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schildewaert (talk • contribs) 19:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The singular is the common usage in English and Dutch (e.g., nl:Nieuw-Nederland). — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand that the odd usage "New Netherland" has somehow arisen for the American colony, but I still think it might be helpful if the irregular use of the singular were explained in the Wikipedia article itself. Perhaps as a terminology note. It might encourage people to understand why this strange usage has been adopted for the New Amsterdam colony and encourage them to use it themselves if it is justifiable. (Of course, the usage in Dutch is irrelevant.)Schildewaert (talk) 19:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The United Provinces of Nederland consisted of a group of lands: Holland, Zeeland, Brabant, Flanders, Groningen, etc. The province in North Anerica was one land: The New Lowland. Had in remained in the conferdation it one have become one of the dozen or so provinces of Der Nederlanden, or the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

This. Plus the Dutch was pointedly singular Nederland where the country is plural Nederlanden. Plus it's standard in popular and scholarly English by about a 2:1 ratio and has been for ages. Plus see above where we already talked about this in an earlier section. — LlywelynII 14:03, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Green Long Island

The map of "greatest extent" of colonial claims only colors the western third of Long Island. It is true the Dutch never acted decisively against the infestation of the island by Yankee interlopers, but didn't they claim the whole island? Jim.henderson (talk) 17:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Moved "euromericas" tag

Page rendered wrong in both Firefox and Chrome, causing the "euromericas" tag to show up behind main text; moved tag down a bit so the page is at least readable now. My pref would be to delete it altogether (it's for the "Dutch colomization..." page as linked within the tag ) and put ref. to it in the "See Also" section. Pls. test preview before changing this.DeVerm (talk) 06:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Also did some consistency editing and some Dutch<>English translation corrections. (no change in content) This page needs a lot more work.. is the current text stable enough to spend my time on?DeVerm (talk) 07:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Making this a readable article

Surprisingly my edits were not undone so I'm being bold and continued. Although my previous edits (see previous section) were minor edits I forgot to flag them so. The edits I started now are not considered minor although I'm not changing factual content. I can see that the authors must have been Dutch (like me) because I recognize the sometimes odd way of phrasing and tried to correct that. English is my 2nd language so if it's your first and you see phrasing that sounds odd in my edits, please jump in!

My goal is to first make this a readable article with basically the same content. If that works out well, intend to make further refinements and corrections to the content itself, which I will explain on this page too. For now it will be some time before that point is reached as I'm still working on the "exploration section"... DeVerm (talk) 20:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Hear, hear! (Or is it here, here!?) I agree with DeVerm and, as an English-speaking editor of many years' experience, will help out. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Have been taking a shot at making article a bit readable, TOP & EXPLORE: In general will need lots of work, and a problem here is that much of the info is not referenced at all so the chanced of this piece becoming valid (if that's a concern) is slim.Djflem (talk) 01:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Extent of greatest settlement

I'm dubious about the map that purports to show (in green) the area of settlement by the Dutch in New Netherland. The portion in present-day Connecticut is especially unlikely, not least because its northern boundary is shown as following the present-day boundary between Connecticut and Massachusetts. (That line wasn't laid out in its current location until 1804, according to the map at the Connecticut Colony article.) My impression is that Dutch settlement in Connecticut was minimal, despite the establishment of a fort/trading post near present-day Hartford. Can any Nutmeg Staters shed light on the matter? 65.213.77.129 (talk) 21:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm no expert in this field, but I do know that the map is not a good source, having been drawn by a Wikipedian, which is Original Research, so I have removed it. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that none of the "new" maps give a clear picture of the extent of the colony. The territory claimed was never fully settled, and while some trading grew into larger communities others were destroyed (Swaanendael), failed to flourish at all (Ft Nassau), were ceded to English in first treaty (Good Hope), or others that may have been settled by New Netherlanders, but while being part of New Netherland. For all intents and purposes New Netherland was the region around New York Harbor and the Hudson Valley. The Delaware Bay region was New Sweden from 1638-1655, and had little if any official contact with New Amsterdam, and the green map showed that best. The white map within template (which incidently has an English flag on it), shows communites that did not exist simulatneously, highlights small ones, while omitting larger ones.Djflem (talk) 04:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I have restored map, because, actually it does justice to the article and as it says RELATIVE.... The other map in article-states that were part of NNL is completely misleading, whereas this goes RELATIVELY broadly show regions of settlement.----dj flem

TOTAL RE-WRITE????

It seems that this article has been mauled over so many times that it is almost impossible to make heads or tails of it: repetitive statements, no chronology, very few references, tons of misleading and obscure information, etc, etc. Having tried to work on it's understandable that it hasn't been touched in a substantive way in while. A quagmire. But besides all that IT DOES NOT TELL THE STORY OF NEW NETHERLAND. Where is the real history? The Lenape, the Wappingers, and Mohawks? Minuit? Kieft's War? The Twelve Men? The Nine Men? Stuyvesant? Esopus War? Would love to see this become a great piece, especially in light of the upcoming 400th anniversary of Hudson's trip up his river and the start of it all Djflem (talk) 03:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Preferred Consistent Format for Non-English Words???

Is there a preferred way to indicate non-English words, ie use of italics that should then consisttenly used througout article? Is there a better way to then translate it? The (Eng:...)form seems redundant and breaks the flow of text. Wouldn't a parenthetical translation suffice? 86.80.116.183 (talk) 14:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Colonial history of the United States

Have just added a New Netherland section to above mentioned....which could use work

New Netherland Template

This template could use some serious work:

Flag shown is only that of colony that succeeded New Netherland
Languages could be better described as official and spoken. Indeed it was Polygot society:

Dutch, English (certainly in New Amsterdam and some Brooklyn towns), French (the mother of the Walloons, the first settlers) Unami Lenape (the language of the Hackensack, Tappan, Raritan), Munsee from the Esopus, Meteoac fromCanarsee and Rockaway plus a variety of others. Likely Scandanavian tongues, German, and Spanish

The list of directors is incomplete: should include all or nothing
The map is a disaster, as has been earlier described. Some of the "prominent" settlements were no more than trading posts or did not last for more than a year or two, while others are not shown at all

Where is this template hiding? GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Acutally, I suppose it's not a offically a template, but the first info at top of article. Doesn't seem possible thought to add Prinsen flag, or space for other Directors of New Netherland, more specific language notations (ie offical, and common)Djflem (talk) 23:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested feedback

Some comments in response to the request on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Netherlands:

I think the table of contents is too long
The way the article is divided into sections and subsections could be improved, maybe some subsections can be grouped into sections such as 'History', 'Settlements', 'Trade', 'Government'
The section 'See also' could be removed, relevant links should be in the article body
The section 'Remonstrance of New Netherland' is empty
The purpose of the section 'Sidebars' is unclear
Perhaps some illustrations of the settlements in New Netherlands could be added
The notes could be formatted per Wikipedia:Citation templates
Some sections have no source references, these should be added
The lead is too short and could be expanded to three paragraphs, see Wikipedia:Lead section
The infobox could be improved/expanded/updated, see Template:Infobox Former Country

Success with the article! – Ilse @ 13:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Dutch language text

I chosen to remove long stretched of Dutch langage text as being too detailed for this article and general reader of English Wikipedia. Agreed?Djflem (talk) 03:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC) The Union of Utrecht, the founding document of the Dutch Republic, signed in 1579 stated “that everyone shall remain free in religion and that no one may be persecuted or investigated because of religion” (dat een yder particulier in sijn religie vrij sal moegen blijven ende dat men nyemant ter cause van de religie sal moegen achterhaelen ofte ondersoucken). “through attitude and by example”, the natives and nonbelievers to God’s word “without, on the other hand, to persecute someone by reason of his religion, and to leave everyone the freedom of his conscience” (or, in Dutch, levenshouding en voorbeeld moesten zij de Indianen ende andere blinde menschen tot de kennisz Godes ende synes woort sien te trecken, sonder nochtans ijemant ter oorsaecke van syne religie te vervolgen, maer een yder de vrijch[eyt] van sijn consciencie te laten). “that everyone shall remain free in religion and that no one may be persecuted or investigated because of religion” (dat een yder particulier in sijn religie vrij sal moegen blijven ende dat men nyemant ter cause van de religie sal moegen achterhaelen ofte ondersoucken). That statement, unique in the world at the time, became the historic underpinning for the opening of the first synagogue in the Western Hemisphere at Recife in Dutch Brazil in 1642. as well as the official granting of full residency for both Ashkenazim and Sephardim Jews in New Amsterdam in 1655.

New Netherland series

I have add this template for NNL series to many articles which are not included in the template because that are totally relevent, among them: Jan Rodrigues New Netherland Dutch Colonial history of New Jersey Flushing Remonstrance Is it necessary, worthwhile, or interesting to add them to the series template "contents" or would it be too unwieldly?Djflem (talk) 21:46, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

New Netherland series

I have add this template for NNL series to many articles which are not included in the template because that are totally relevent, among them: Jan Rodrigues New Netherland Dutch Colonial history of New Jersey Flushing Remonstrance Is it necessary, worthwhile, or interesting to add them to the series template "contents" or would it be too unwieldly?Djflem (talk) 21:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Patroon

The above mentioned article is very relevent to New Netherland, but cannot be covered very comprehensively within. I have tried to import some material to Patroon and give it a bit of shape, but it's lacking.... Any help there would give support to this piece. Djflem (talk) 20:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Hello all. I spend most of time here disamming pages. This just means that there are links to disambiguation pages. Well those pages aren't meant to have links to them. They should be redirected to wherever they should be. Well I've disammed this article multiple times the last few weeks. The main "culprits" are British and Native American(s). The former should really be linked to British people or United Kingdom. The latter should go to Native Americans in the United States. So when adding content, please remember to make the links go to where you intend them to go. Nationalities (British, American, French, Dutch, etc) almost always should go to people, i.e. British people, French people, etc and not the disam pages. Thanks. --User:Woohookitty ^{Diamming fool!} 09:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

That's a good project you are engaging in, but don't you think that linking "British" or "American" in most cases is a real case of over-linking? I feel they should normally not be linked, and I will quite often de-link those terms, along with many other perfectly normal words. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Map

For North America-related articles needing a map, use {{map requested|North America}} on the talk page, which adds the article to Category:Wikipedia requested maps in North America. You can help Wikipedia by uploading freely licensed maps for these articles to Wikimedia Commons. Though the current map gives an impression of New Netherland is chooses certain settlements that were never "prominent" and doesn't contain others that were, giving a skewed picture.

Capitulation, restitution, and Concession

Have removed from following paragragh in article the detailed info on the fleet:Within six years, the nations were again at war, and in August 1673 the Dutch recaptured New Netherland with a fleet of 21 ships, then the largest ever seen in North America. It was composed of two squadrons, one under the command of Vice-Admiral Cornelis Evertsen de Jongste, sent out by Pieter Huybert, ‘’raadspensionaris’’ of the Zeeland Chamber of the Dutch West India Company, and one under Jacob Binckes, sent by the Amsterdam Chamber. The victors chose Anthony Colve as governor and renamed the city "New Orange", reflecting the installation of William of Orange as Lord-Lieutenant (stadtholder) of Holland in 1672. (He would become King William III of England in 1689).Djflem (talk) 11:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:New Netherland/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Testing the systemDjflem (talk) 04:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello. I am going to have to fail this article's GA nomination, mainly due to referencing issues, but also a few other problems. Here is a list of the issues that need to be addressed:

The biggest issue with this article is that it is under-referenced. There are some sections that are completely unreferenced, and many sections that are at least partially unreferenced. It is especially important to reference direct quotes, dates, and statistics.
References should be formatted with titles, publishers and access dates at the very least. They should never be left as bare links.
References should be placed directly after the punctuation, with no space in between. Also, watch out for constructions such as ". .[18][19]".
Identical references, such as #3 and 4, should be combined using named references.
Ref #31 (Coins.nd.edu) deadlinks.
Refs #35 and 40 (of Capitulation of the Reduction of New Netherland) deadlink.
In the Sources section there are several books/websites that are not used for in-line citations. If these are not actually used as references, they should be either removed or moved to a "Further reading" section.
External links should be formatted so they are not bare refs.
The lead should be longer for an article of this length. Make sure that the lead adequately summarizes the entire article, but does not include any information that is not presented in the body.

This list is not exhaustive, as I didn't check prose, NPOV or coverage. Once the above issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated for GAN. It looks like a nice article overall, just needs some work on the referencing. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Dana boomer (talk) 17:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Beyond the reference issues mentioned above, there are some problems of organization which I'd like to address. The sections have an unsettling crisscross of thematic and chronological categories, which I'd like to organize a bit more thoroughly. I'd suggest six top-level sections (à la == two equals signs ==):

Origins (background and context, also including early exploration; an account of contact and the aboriginal peoples on the scene would also be needed)
Development (a chronologically-driven history from 1614 to 1664)
Society (language, religion, ethnicity, slavery, economy)
New Netherland and its neighbours (aboriginal peoples, the New Sweden frontier, the New England frontier)
Fall (from 1664 to 1674; the section should then link to History of New York and History of New Jersey)
Legacy (which may need some pruning for POV, as it currently seems a bit too rah-rah)

Alternatively, we could cut the Neighbours section, and then the sections on aboriginal peoples, the New Sweden frontier, and the New England frontier could then be integrated into the main narrative.

All in all though, this is a very thoroughly written article into which serious good effort has clearly been put. Q·L·1968 ☿ 13:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources not used in inline citations

Jacobs, Jaap (2005). New Netherland: A Dutch Colony in Seventeenth-Century America. Brill. ISBN 90-04-12906-5.
Wentz, Abel Ross (1955). "New Netherland and New York". A Basic History of Lutheranism in America. Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press.

I am not sure what is meant by this. Why are these two sources posted here? Kindly explain. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. You will notice from the above Good Article evaluation that there are many problems with referencing, one of them being the inconsistency of having an incomplete source list. As a source list is not required per se, and indeed might be redundant or make the article too long, I've eliminated it. Items can indeed be found in Ref List or as external site. In my haste the above were overlooked, are now incorporated. Addtionally, I wonder if you have away of testing for access dates. I beleive there's a program to be run for checking that (rather than doing manuallly), but am not sure. ThanksDjflem (talk) 22:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anything about access dates except that some editors or bots have added the wrong access dates to sources I have used (how do they know when I did the research?), so I eschew them. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

References

After a Request for Feedback from User:Djflem, I started to make some order in the references. I am going to use Cite-templates everywhere for a uniform look. For the access dates, I ask the authors to fill in the respective dates. bamse (talk) 12:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Two quick question: Reference 5 (New Netherland Project:Fort Nassau, New Netherland Institute) is the same as the fourth item in the external links section? What is the correct citation for John Smith's map (reference 11)? bamse (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Half of the references (left column) done. Any suggestions for references 5 and 11? bamse (talk) 15:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The link in reference 26 does not work anymore. Probably the site has been moved. Could this be the new location of the site? bamse (talk) 16:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Done: converted (almost) all references to cite-template style. Moved non-references to Notes section, combined double references and deleted items in external link section if they were already in the references. To complete this task the following is necessary:

~~Check if reference 5 (New Netherland Project:Fort Nassau, New Netherland Institute) is the same as this external link. If yes, convert reference 5 to cite-template.~~ done by User:Djflem
~~Check if the reference 26 should be linked to this site (the present link is dead). If yes, convert reference 26 to cite-template.~~ done by User:Djflem
Add access dates to the web references if necessary. (Put the date of research if you are an author. Or put the current date after checking that the link contains relevant information.)

I am looking for expert knowledge from authors or people familiar with the subject for this. If you need help with formatting, leave a note here or on my talk page. bamse (talk) 17:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

hoek=point?

My Dutch is a bit rusty, so please correct me if I am wrong. I only know hoek in the meaning of corner/angle. Can it also have the meaning of "point" as written in the article? bamse (talk) 22:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

A hook (or hoek in NL) is a point as in Paulus Hook or Red Hook or Hook of Holland. By the way, it's obscure and not needed here: From the Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House article: The building sits on the site of Fort Amsterdam, the fortification constructed by the Dutch West India Company to defend their operations in the Hudson Valley. The fort became the nucleus of the New Amsterdam settlement, and in turn, of New York City.Djflem (talk) 23:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I am still not convinced that this "point" is the literal translation of Dutch "hoek". Hook of Holland states: literally "Corner of Holland"... All the dictionaries I checked (wiktionary included) had only "corner/angle" as translation. I suspect it became known in the "point of land" meaning in New Netherland, but what do European Dutch associate with it? Is there any other Hoek besides Hoek van Holland in NL? Just curious...

Not sure why you quote from Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House. I removed the redirect from "southern tip" to the Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House because the custom house article is not really about the tip itself. bamse (talk) 23:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't suggesting to keep link to southern tip, just a tid-bit of info about how far inland the site is due to landfilling since 17th century. Hook, as point, seems reasonable to leave since the essential meaning is there in English and it's the term that used for such locations as West Point, Bergen Point, Orient Point. Other than Hoek van Holland (where the pure translation promotes the misconception), another hook in NL is Hoek van Ameland, an island in the Waddenzee. Cannot find online dictionary that offers point as translation. Could also suggest leaving it out altogether. ([www.mijn.woorden.nl] will offer landpunt, which is among the many words used for peninsula, cape, horn, spit, etc. Some other other good old NL words are nes (in English neck), or landtong (tongue of land)Djflem (talk) 01:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting to know that there are so many English words based on Dutch. Not to forget good old Dutch "weekend" ;-) I don't doubt the meaning of English hook as point of land. I also believe that it is based on Dutch "hoek". My theory is that: Before the Dutch went to America, the only meaning of "hoek" was "corner/angle". Then they built settlements on "points of land" in New Netherland. They had to give these settlements some name. They remembered good old Hoek van Holland and called the new settlements "Hoek/Hook...". Only then started the association of hoek/hook <-> point of land. My point was that at the time of founding all those "Hook" s in New Netherland, Dutch "hoek" did not have the meaning of "point of land". I am very far from being a linguist though, so it is just a feeling.

As for Hoek van Ameland it seems to be a part of Groningen and is not on the island. According to the "eerste theorie" (in Dutch wikipedia article) it denotes the harbour area from where boats left for Ameland. In the second theory: "Ameland" has nothing to do with the island. Nothing is mentioned of a "point of land" in either theory as far as I could see. Reading the Dutch text, for me it feels like "Hoek" in "Hoek van Ameland" has the meaning of "district/quarter" as in "uit welke hoek?" (=from which quarter). bamse (talk) 11:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Here is a citation for hoek as point: Would like to add it, but wouldn't know where to begin with getttin this info a format. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Much thanks. Djflem (talk) 21:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Voorhees, David William (2009). "The Dutch Legacy in America". Dutch New York:The Roots of Hudson Valley Culture. Yonkers, NY: Fordham University Press. p. 418. ISBN 978-0-8232-3039-6. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |co-publisher= ignored (help)

^[1]

not sure where to cite editorof book Roger Panetta
book title Dutch New York
chapter title The dutch legacy in America

Hey djflem, please take a look at the revision I just made. If it isn't what you had in mind, please revert it! :) DutchmanInDisguise (talk) 23:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Links to disambiguation pages

I started to fix links to disambiguation pages and am stuck at The Fresh River and New England. Which Oyster Bay is meant there? bamse (talk) 11:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Done. I think I caught more or less all of them. ~~Only thing left is said Oyster Bay.~~ (done by User:Djflem) bamse (talk) 14:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Great, thanks again!!!!Djflem (talk) 20:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Sections

I changed some sections back for the following reasons:

1. Origins: The original population of the region was essentail to the developemnt of the province and were in no terms external to it.
2. Incursions: The New England and New Sweden settlements discussed were on territory claimed by New Netherland, a fact acknowledged and ignored by the colonists to them. ((Indeed, in 1655, New Netherland re=asserted conttrol over the Delaware River region.)
3. Capitulation.....:Fall implies a conquering or deteriation from within, which was not the case. It was simply contractual arrangement for the peaceful transfer of power.

Djflem (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Stuyvesant's capitulation and Navigation Acts

I don't know enough of the subject to attempt an edit, but it occurred me that Art. 6 of Stuyvesant's transfer agreement of 1664, which gives Dutchmen leave to settle freely in future and continues free navigation of Dutch bottoms and free trade of Dutch goods in those bottoms, constitutes an exception to the Navigation Acts of 1660. The Acts allowed free navigation of the colonists in their own ships, except for enumerated commodities, but Art. 6 appears to go further. I believe I have seen this exception mentioned in the literature, so it may have been used effectively. But I am not sure. If it remained a dead letter there is no reason to mention this in the article. But if this privilege for the New Yorkers remained in force during English colonial times it constituted an important advantage for the New Yorkers compared with other English colonists. The Navigation Acts intentionally limited access of English subjects outside England to the Amsterdam Entrepot and so posed a serious obstacle to colonial economic prosperity. Except maybe for New York, if I am right. Does anybody know?--Ereunetes (talk) 20:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I have spent some time surveying the literature with the help of google books. Most of the English literature seems to have missed art. 6 of the Capitulation, but there is much gnashing of teeth about the "smuggling" in contravention of the Navigation Acts. I think it is likely that at least in the first years after 1664 the Dutch settlers availed themselves of the opportunity to trade directly with the motherland, bypassing England. This is confirmed in J. Jacobs, New Netherland: a Dutch colony in seventeenth-century America.BRILL, 2005, ISBN 9004129065, 9789004129061, pp. 257-264, and E.G. Burrows/M. Wallace,Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898. Oxford University Press US, 2000, ISBN 0195140494, 9780195140491, pp. 73, 77ff. But apparently the formal toleration of trade with the Amsterdam entrepot ended after 1674.

I think the general subversion of the Navigation Acts by colonial merchants, not only from New York, but especially from Virginia, before and after 1664, is actually a more interesting subject. This also played a role in the trade of the American colonies with the West Indies plantations, apparently. But that is probably something that should be discussed in the article on the Navigation Acts.--Ereunetes (talk) 22:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:New Netherland/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Comments by Rubenescio

This article needs a little work. I will give some recommendations per section.

Part 1

Infobox

*Shouldn't the seal be placed in the infobox? *Shouldn't there be a flag in the infobox? Flags do not appear in info box though they have been input. Technical assistence needed to do this as well moving seal into it.`20:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Was there an official currency in the colony? This information should be in the infobox

Fur pelts, sewant, coin, as well as barter were all used much more than the guilder/florin The guilder (Dutch: gulden), represented by the symbol ƒ or fl., was the currency of the Netherlands from the 13th century until 2002, but inclusion would be misrepresentative.

~~The information about the languages needs a reference~~ refs added

Is it a "colony" or a "colonial province"? Or are those the same?

a link has been made to colony

Is there a map that better shows the location of the colony in the continent?

NOT AVAILABLE

~~Should "Director-General" be written with a hyphen?~~ Rubenescio (talk) 22:08, 7 May 2009
~~Why are only three Directors-General in the list?~~ Rubenescio (talk) 22:08, 7 May 2009

See below for"Director-General".Djflem (talk) 20:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Lead section

Should there be a hyphen in "Nieuw-Nederland"? see below

*"Dutch" should be wikilinked to "Dutch language" *"colonial province" should be wikilinked to "colony"

The wikilink redirects in this section should be fixed
I think all thumb images in the article should have normal thumb size

*"North America" should only be wikilinked once

~~I think the 1614 map should be moved down to the Origins section, where its cartographer is mentioned~~

Either spelling for Nieuw Nederland, with or without hyphen, is acceptable and used in contemporary Dutch. Dutch language Wikipedia uses that with hyphen.Djflem (talk) 19:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Origins

This section needs additional references
Is the "Halve Maen" truly a "yacht"? Same for "Craen" and "Vos"?
Can an image of the "Halve Maen" be added?

included in Halve Maan article, which is linked

*"Netherlands" and "Jamestown" should be wikilinked only once
*"The Netherlands" should be written as "the Netherlands"
*The wikilink to "Cornelius Jacobsen Mey" should be corrected Rubenescio (talk) 16:46, 7 May 2009

Rubenescio (talk) 16:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Some tasks completed. Yacht is appropriate in Dutch, but perhpas not in English, will consider that and if indeed image should be addedDjflem (talk) 20:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

Dates should match lead section
End date should match article of successor state
~~1 redirect should be fixed~~

Lead section

Was the colonial province part of the Republic or private property of the WIC alone? Or can such a distinction not be made?
Dates should be clear and match infobox/successor state
~~5 redirects should be fixed~~

Origins

This section needs additional references
~~3 redirects should be fixed~~
~~2 ambiguous links should be fixed~~
~~Second wikilink to Asia should be removed~~

Development

This section needs additional references
~~"Ijseren" should be spelled "IJseren" (IJ (digraph))~~
~~Whitespace should be removed~~
~~27 redirects should be fixed~~
~~1 ambiguous link should be fixed~~
Can the number of main article/see also links be reduced?
~~"c1639" in image caption should be spelled "c. 1639"~~
~~The subheading "New Netherland Company and Dutch West India Company" could be changed into "Chartered trading companies"~~
~~Could the word "parallels" be wikilinked?~~
An image of Fort Nassau could be added
~~The image of the WIC headquarters could be downsized~~
An image of the Iroquois and/or Algonquian people could be added, preferably a contemporary image
The establishment of Fort Nassau is mentioned thrice

Rubenescio (talk) 22:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I have made some edits, mostly minor ones, and removed twelve bullets from this list. Rubenescio (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Review by Rubenescio

This article is well written, but needs some work before I can pass it as a good article. The most obvious improvement would be adding more citations in order to pass good article criterion 2. For now I will fail it. Rubenescio (talk) 20:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Mey/May

Jan Jacobsz May van Schellinkhout was born in the small village of Schellinkhout, just east of the town of Hoorn in North Holland. He appears to be the brother of Cornelis Jacobsz May, the first director of New Netherland^[2]. Both brothers were the cousin of an in his days far more famous sailor, Jan Cornelisz May^[3], who led several expeditions to explore the Northeast passage and between 1614 and 1617 circumnavigated the world with Joris van Spilbergen.Djflem (talk) 19:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Director-General of New Netherland

This is a list of Directors, appointed by the Dutch West India Company. Only Peter Stuyvesant held the title of Director General. During the restitution to Dutch rule from August 1673 to November 1674, when New Netherland was under the jurisdiction of the City of Amsterdam, the first Dutch 'Governor' was appointed: Anthony Colve.

1624–1664

Director/Director General	From - To
Cornelis Jacobszoon May	1624 – 1625
Willem Verhulst	1625 – 1626
Peter Minuit	1626 – 1632
Sebastiaen Jansen Krol	1632 – 1633
Wouter van Twiller	1633 – 1638
Willem Kieft	1638 – 1647
Petrus Stuyvesant	1647 – 1664

Have chosen to remove this list from info box due to the complexity as described above. As with New Netherland in Dutch language, Director General can be written with or without hyphen.Djflem (talk) 20:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

1609-1667

Djflem just made an edit in the "Dutch colony" info box, changing the dates from 1614-1664 to 1609-1667. I think this is dubious, to say the least. The fact that Hudson re-discovered the area in 1609 on an expedition financed by the VOC does not constitute the start of the colony, if only because the first Company to receive (in 1614) a charter to trade with the area was not the VOC, but the New Netherland Company (as the article correctly states). I think the start date should be the date of first settlement (which actually was later than 1614). As to the end date: of course, the colony officially changed hands only in 1667, but it had de facto fallen into English hands in 1664 and been governed by England since. I think we should not be too punctilious about legalities. In any case, these points are up for debate. I think it is not correct to put such important edits into the article, without putting them first up for discussion.--Ereunetes (talk) 22:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Dates of New Netherland

Below is rough chronology dates which may be relevent to a discussion of the beginning/ending of New Netherland. Since the matter is complicated (just as that of the Director, Director-General, and Governor) it seems trying to chose a date to conform to an infox would be unnecessary and always arbitrary. Information can be found in article itself so the reader can determine if its important. I suggest scrapping it altogether.

1609-Hudson's Claim
1614-New Netherland Company Charter
1621-West India Company Charter
1624-Provincial Status granted
1625-First Settlers at Noten Eylandt
1664-Surrender of New Amsterdam
1667-Treaty of Breda
1773-Surrender of New York
1674-Treaty of Westminster

Djflem (talk) 22:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

English

This may only bother me and I certainly will not make any changes based on my feelings BUT many times an English translation of a Dutch word is used when it would make more sense to this English speaking reader if the modern English word was either used or added parenthetically. It is good to know the Dutch named and called the Hudson the North and the Delaware the South Rivers. But when writing about where a trading post was established it's better to use the modern English name. Use of the Dutch name would be preferable to an English translation, I know little about this colony but I'll bet the Dutch didn't use the title South River they used Zuyd Rivier. Nitpyck (talk) 16:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Good article

I add this tag on talk page as it seems this article is in quite good shape but needing some extra help to it to becoming a GA. The above English/Dutch placenaming consistency issue could be resolved, the dates infobos could be resolved (a list or important dates rather than just two perhaps?), map in infobox could identify less arbitrary selection of settlements (or hone in on Hudson River with New Sweden inset?). The absence of a discusssion of slavery is glaring, and am looking at adding some text in society section. Any movement in this direction would be of great help.Djflem (talk) 13:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Nine Men

I've just created an article on a British film called Nine Men, and have found on looking at the What Links Here page that it's created literally hundreds of links to the New Netherland template --->

I assume this must have been a redlink as there's no other article with this title, but as I have absolutely no knowledge of New Netherland I can't disambiguate the template entry as I wouldn't have any idea what an appropriate dab would be. Maybe someone au fait with the subject could do it? Thanks. Draggleduck (talk) 06:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Pinkster a spring festival?

As far as I am aware, we don't celebrate spring during 'Pinkster'. 'Pinksteren', as we call it nowadays, is rather the Dutch name for Pentecost. It may have been turned into a spring celebration or adapted to replace something of the native culture, but at least originally it hasn't been about spring. Qense (talk) 10:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

"at least originally it wasn't about spring" Hurmata (talk) 18:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Need editing help

While editing another article, I tried to add a link to this article, and had a problem. When I tried to link text to this article, the text was replaced by a New Netherlands series box. Although I'm a veteran editor, I'm not a power user. How do I avoid this problem? Secondly, how can I separately display the series box? Hurmata (talk) 18:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

w/o seeing what happened can suggest trying New Netherland w/o the "s" (The Netherlands exists, but New Nethrlands not), using these brackets [....]], as opposed to these {...}} Good luckDjflem (talk) 22:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Sports uniforms

I reverted an edit to the Lore section that added a lot detail about the history of the uniform colors of the NY Mets. I don't think that this article is the right place for details sports uniform history. If there's some disagreement about the source of the Mets' colors, they should just be removed from the section. Even if the Mets draw their colors from the Dodgers and Giants, but it seems more likely than not that the Dodgers and Giants drew their colors from the New York flag. In that case, the observation that the Mets colors match the colors of New Netherland's flag seems completely apposite. Fitnr (talk) 18:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. In that case, the Mets' uniform colors should be removed from the article completely, as neither the Giants nor the Dodgers drew their colors from the New York flag. The Giants' colors were actually orange and black, while the Dodgers were blue and a little red, and neither black nor red appear on the flag. The Mets took a Dodgers' cap (blue cap with a white "B") and a Giants' cap (black cap with an orange "NY") and combined them (blue cap with an orange "NY"). In fact, the "NY" logo on the Mets' cap is the exact same shape (and color) as the "NY" logo on the Giants' cap. 24.9.74.139 (talk) 19:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems likely that the Mets took the colors from the Dodgers and Giants that matched the flag. Right now the article only states that the Mets' colors match the flag, which is true. I think that can stay as is, unless there's evidence that the Mets founders definitely did not think about the matching the colors of the Knicks and the New York City and state flags. Fitnr (talk) 01:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Neither the Giants nor the Dodgers took their colors from the flag. You remember what the teams looked like, don't you? Look at the current uniforms of the San Francisco Giants and the Los Angeles Dodgers. Except for the fact that the letters now spell "San Francisco" or "Los Angeles," the uniforms used today are the same as they were when the teams played in New York City. The Giants are mostly black, with orange trim. If you look at it, there is nothing in the uniform that would suggest the NY flag. Same with the Dodgers; if anything it reminds one of the US flag. (Former Dodger Steve Garvey actually said that when he puts on a Dodgers uniform, he thinks of himself as wearing a US flag.) If Wikipedia allowed us to post photos, I would show you a photo of a NY Giants cap, a Bkln Dodgers cap, and a NY Mets cap. The Mets cap looks like they took the "NY" from the Giants cap (it's the same color AND font) and put it on a Dodgers cap. It is very obvious that that is where the Mets colors come from. They certainly wouldn't have taken the colors from the NY Knickerbockers basketball, team, either. The NBA was not yet a big-time sport when the Mets uniforms were unveiled in 1962. In fact, I once saw the NY Knicks play the Boston Celtics in a high school gym in Bristol, Connecticut in 1972. 24.9.74.139 (talk) 17:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Here is the NY Times article, November 17, 1961, page 47. It clearly states that the Mets took their team colors from "Dodger blue" and "Giant orange." There is no mention at all in the article about the New York flag or the colors of New Netherland. Now, will anyone believe me? http://search.proquest.com/docview/115298414/13C0B58B4E324B48315/4?accountid=14503 128.138.65.119 (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Halve Maen (Half Moon).

Hudson's ship, the Halve Maen, was miss-categorized as a yacht. It was actually a very serious ship of exploration known as the vlieboot, or "flyboat" in English. Correction made. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 20:00, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Real maps?

It seems that in this entire page, with many examples of encient cartography, there is not one actual atlas showing the position of New Netherland on the globe. Perhaps someone invested in the page could add one? I doubt that the location of Cape Cod is known to the general public. PanDTV (talk) 17:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Juan Rodriguez

Fur trader Juan Rodriguez's over-wintering on Manhattan in 1613–1614.is clearly part of the early establishment of the colony of NNL.Djflem (talk) 05:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

^ Voorhees, David William (2009). New York: Fordham University Press. p. 418. ISBN 978-0-8232-3039-6. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
^ Samuel Muller Geschiedenis van de Noordsche Compagnie., Gebr van der Post, 1874, footnote on page 167 [2]
^ Gerben Kazimier History of Schellinkhout 1601-1650

[Voorhees-1] Voorhees, David William (2009). New York: Fordham University Press. p. 418. ISBN 978-0-8232-3039-6. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)

[Muller-2] Samuel Muller Geschiedenis van de Noordsche Compagnie., Gebr van der Post, 1874, footnote on page 167 [2]

[Schel-3] Gerben Kazimier History of Schellinkhout 1601-1650

[1]

[2]

[3]

Minuit spoke English !???

Flag?

New Netherland vs New Netherlands

Establishment of trading posts

Sale of Manhattan

Nova Belgica and Novi Belgii

is "factorijs" the correct plural?

Request to add geographical information to opening sentence

Russell Shorto's Book

Copyvio in recent additions

New Sweden versus Virginia, New England, New Netherland

About the map

New map

Removal of the fraudulent New Sweden map

Stuyvesant's popularity

Exploration (Verrazano)

Flushing Remonstrance

"Belgium" stuff is confusing

comment moved from article

Related but unreferenced articles

Voiding maritime law

Dutch Legacy: What about Dutch traces in the American English language?

Explanation of "New Netherland" in the singular?

Green Long Island

Moved "euromericas" tag

Making this a readable article

Extent of greatest settlement

TOTAL RE-WRITE????

Preferred Consistent Format for Non-English Words???

Colonial history of the United States

New Netherland Template

Requested feedback

Dutch language text

New Netherland series

New Netherland series

Patroon

Disambiguation

Map

Capitulation, restitution, and Concession

GA Review

Sources not used in inline citations

References

hoek=point?

Links to disambiguation pages

Sections

Stuyvesant's capitulation and Navigation Acts

GA Review

Comments by Rubenescio

Infobox

Lead section

Origins

Infobox

Lead section

Origins

Development

Review by Rubenescio

Mey/May

Director-General of New Netherland

1624–1664

1609-1667

Dates of New Netherland

English

Good article

Nine Men

Pinkster a spring festival?

Need editing help

Sports uniforms

Halve Maen (Half Moon).

Real maps?

External links modified

Juan Rodriguez