Talk:Neo-Nazism

Finland

Finland had a notorious neo-Nazi leader Pekka Siitoin (1944-2003). He started as an ardent anticommunist who organized terror campaign against pro-communist media. In 1976 one of his followers burned communist printing house. Siitoin was jailed. After his release from prison in 1982, he demanded overthrow of goverment and forming a new regime based on fascism. He did get much media coverage. Si, he ended up calling himself the Fuehrer of Finland. He used swastika flag as his symbol and promoted nazism. He received lot of media coverage in the 1990s. However, he was out of date. He continued his neo-Nazism until his death (2003).

Source: Iiro Nordling; Long Shadow of Finland’s Fuehrer: Life and legacy of the notorious Finnish occult neo-Nazi Pekka Siitoin. Amazon 2021. ISBN ‎979-8546175634.

Christianity and Neo-Nazism

Don't a significant number of neo-nazis oppose christianity since it's from the same branch of religion as judaism and islam? Firekong1 (talk) 02:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

@Firekong1: Yes, there are many prominent anti-Christian nazi groups such as Asatru Folk Assembly, Atomwaffen Division and Order of Nine Angles to mention a few. What sort of change do you have in mind?RKT7789 (talk) 05:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I added that neo-nazis opposes christianity alongside judaism and islam, but the edit was removed without much of an explanation for why. Firekong1 (talk) 08:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

You should add sources, Google Books and other articles might be a good place to start.RKT7789 (talk) 08:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I will. But I don't want to seem like I'm starting an edit war if anyone misunderstands. Firekong1 (talk) 09:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

@WikiLinuz: Quite a few neo nazis oppose christianity, so I'll re-add it with sources. Firekong1 (talk) 01:51, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Many neo-Nazis oppose Christianity, but then again many neo-Nazis are also Christians. Nazism has always had a complex relationship with Christianity, so I wouldn't necessarily say being Anti-Christian is an integral part of Nazism. But its definitely a possible feature, so maybe a section on Neo-Nazis and religion could be made, rather than add it to the lead. Illustrative case is Ukraine, where both pagan (Ratibor, Svarozhich Battalion) and Christian (Russian Imperial Movement) Nazis fight side by side.RKT7789 (talk) 08:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Alright then, but I feel like we should mention it in the heading with some nuance, as it is a complex issue. Firekong1 (talk) 17:25, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Per MOS:LEAD, the introduction section of any article should consist primarily (in larger articles, only) of summaries of significant body content sections. So before anything goes in the lead, the body section needs to be written first.

Firekong1, I'm worried that your starting point appears to be an unsupported assertion. You need to be very careful to avoid WP:CHERRYPICKING sources to support that view; you will need to collect a body of evidence to achieve an NPOV analysis – before you add anything. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:08, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

My essential point is that (a) a new section in the body is required before its summary can go in the lead; (b) that section has to be supported by RSs, avoiding WP:OR and WP:SYNTH as well as cherry picking. There are some semantic traps on the way: racism is fairly easy to demonstrate, fascism is more difficult and Nazism quite a bit more. And it can't be a WP editor's judgement, it must be an RS that does so. Finally you have to pass the WP:DUE test: some of these groups are tiny but make a lot of noise – would anybody notice if they disappeared?

It can be done but it won't be easy. Good luck! 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@RKT7789:, there is nothing in the AFA or AD articles to suggest that they are anti-Christian? And nothing at the AFA article that calls it neo-Nazi? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:16, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not aware of anti-Christianity being a significant factor in the neo-Nazi movement. Indeed, the relationship between the original Nazis and Christianity was complex and fraught on both sides (the same with Nazism and capitalism, which is why they cannot be unilaterally described as "anti-capitalistic"). There's no reason that neo-Nazis have to necessarily follow what the Nazis did, but in this case, anyway, there's not a clear path for them to follow. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: AFA page clearly states "In 2018, the Southern Poverty Law Center added the AFA to its list of hate groups as part of a new category called "neo-Völkisch".[19]" and AD page details their adherence to neo-nazi satanism extensively.RKT7789 (talk) 03:24, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

But it does not say that they are "anti-Christian". If I am Jewish, I am not a Muslim, but that doesn't necessarily make me "anti-Islam". A Satanist is not a Christian, but that doesn't make them "anti-Christian", which would have to be an active stance of opposition, not simply denial of belief or adherence to a different creed. And "neo-Völkisch" even more so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@RKT7789: BTW, you cannot retroactively add a ping to a comment, it has to be there in the original. To do what you wanted to achieve, you would need to add the ping to the comment, copy the ping + comment, then delete both from the page and save. Then, re-post the ping + comment and save. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:37, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: RKT7789 wants to draw your attention to their last comment above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, it doesn't say that on their page, but they do post anti-christian stuff on their social media. And yes I understand me saying that is not really ironclad proof. Them being neo-Völkish isn't proof of them being anti-christian but them being neo-nazi which they clearly are. They don't accept non-white members.RKT7789 (talk) 03:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

"Ultra-Nationalism" is not a part of Nazism?

I was browsing the article and came across the line "they frequently adhere to Polish nationalism and National Democracy, in which Nazism is generally considered to be against ultra-nationalist principles, and although they are classed as nationalist and fascist movements, they are at the same time considered anti-Nazi." In the Poland section of the article and was confused since multiple times in the article it clearly labels ultra-nationalism as a prominent feature of Neo-Nazism. Doesn't seem quite correct that Poland is unique in it's usage of far-right ultra-nationalism. I get that there are the issues of that the Polish groups *sometimes* renounce certain aspects of Nazism, but that hardly makes a group not Neo-Nazi or even Anti-Nazi, especially considering that it is against Polish Law and anything they say to separate themselves from Nazism is likely so that their group or party isn't disbanded and isn't based on true ideological motive. Otherwise you could use this line of thinking for many of the subsections of the articles as many Neo-Nazi groups have separated themselves from traditional Nazism to deflect blame or responsibility. The only time that you could maybe consider the Polish ultra-nationalism movements truly Anti-Nazi was probably during the Resistance movements, and even then many eventually found themselves siding with the Nazis. Regardless, just seems like an odd sentence as Neo-Nazism isn't actually opposed to ultra-nationalism, even by the own article's admission. 2600:8801:BE28:E100:9DAF:C0BB:AAE1:5CF (talk) 15:28, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Thumbnail picture

The thumbnail picture for neo-nazism is a picture of gore. Is that intentional? Apologies if this has already been discussed, I didn't find anything regarding this when I looked, but am also quite new. Oxturn (talk) 21:20, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

No, it is not intentional. Some nasty vandalism somewhere. I will ask for it to be investigated. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the Teahouse advises that "a template was vandalized. The vandalism has been reverted and no longer shows in the article but the preview uses caching and takes time to automatically update." --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 April 2024

I would like to change the text for Around The World/Denmark, as it is incorrect. The Party of The Danes was not formally a neo nazi party, although they had roots in the movement. I would also like to add information about The National Socialist Movement of Denmark, as it was a more legitimate neo nazi party. Soren84 (talk) 22:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC) Soren84 (talk) 22:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 23:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It is extremely difficult to find non-Danish sources, so here are some Danish news articles about the two parties:

Informal dissolution of DSNB: https://ekstrabladet.dk/krimi/nazi-veteran-begraver-dnsb-vi-har-ingen-foerer-mere/9038719

An expert on neo nazi ideology about the links between The Party of The Danes and neo nazism: https://web.archive.org/web/20140505162951/http://www.jv.dk/artikel/1617044:Indland--Danskernes-Parti-politianmelder-SFI-efter-ekstremisme-rapport

Formal dissolution of The Party of The Danes: https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201139/http://jyllands-posten.dk/politik/ECE9677658/danskernes-parti-nedlaegger-sig-selv-partiformanden-har-trukket-sig/

All three sources come from mainstream Danish media, and hopefully should count as reliable. Soren84 (talk) 21:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

 Question: Can you post the specific change you want to make to the article text? HansVonStuttgart (talk) 07:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Marking answered due to lack of reply after 3 days. —Sirdog (talk) 06:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but I was busy with other things. Here is my idea for a complete rewrite:

The National Socialist Movement of Denmark was formed in 1991, and was formally a neo nazi party, that would actively promote the nazi ideology in Denmark. The party did not gain any political influence, and were regarded as a failed political project by neo nazi expert Frede Farmand (source: https://www.information.dk/indland/2010/10/politik-politi-sag). Long time party leader Johnni Hansen was replaced by Esben Rohde Kristensen in 2010, which resulted in a large amount of party members leaving the party. While the party never has been formally dissolved, there has been very little activity from its core member since 2010 (source: https://ekstrabladet.dk/krimi/nazi-veteran-begraver-dnsb-vi-har-ingen-foerer-mere/9038719). Former neo nazi Daniel Carlsen formed the small national party Party of the Danes, which officially rejected nazism, but were none the less categorized as such by professor in politics Peter Nedergaard (source: https://web.archive.org/web/20150427194356/http://www.b.dk/nationalt/hovedrysten-over-nyt-parti-paa-den-yderste-hoejrefloej). The Party of The Danes was dissolved in 2017. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soren84 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)