Talk:Ned Roberto/Archive 1

notability

This person is a professor of marketing. There are thousands of them.

The only reference (albeit used 17 times) points to a website of the publisher Sage that gives a brief biography. Although Sage itself is an academic publisher I seriously doubt whether its "who is who" pages meet reliable source criteria. Even if this were the case, the Sage page does not claim anything especially notable for a university professor with about 36 years since gaining his phd.

Therefore I seriously doubt the notability of this person. Arnoutf (talk) 17:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Creative professionals and Wikipedia:Notability (academics) for that.

Yes, a guaranteed-reliable source would be a good addition, or an investigation into Sage's reliability.

I've fixed the single ref for clarity (multiple uses).

(fyi, i'm just here via this thread) -- Quiddity (talk) 17:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanksfor the notability pointers. And how I got here, through the same thread.... I was about to convert the ref to a named ref but you beat me to it ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 17:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi there! All I tried upon stumbling on this article was to format, wikify & add references. I did have similar doubts on the notability of this person, but upon reading his academic qualifications, positions held, present positions, books authored etc. seems fairly notable at least in The Philippines. It is noteworthy that he has co-authored books with none other than Philip Kotler. BTW thanks a lot to Quiddity for fixing the references & to Arnoutf for the response to this thread.---Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 10:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

A google search yields more than 5300 results. I've included new references from the World Bank, Young Market Masters among others. Young Market Masters' "official research partner" is TNS, a global market research specialist. Ned Roberto is also on the editorial board of the International Journal of Research in Marketing. Hope all the above reasons, explain his notability, which is why I'm also removing the tag placed. -Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 12:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

To be honest if your are a scientist for over 35 years and probably a uniersity professor the list of qualifications is nothing speical. Neither is being on the board of a good journal; or even having 5300 Google hits. To be honest the only thing notable is association with Kotler, but that is derived notability. To be honest if I run through all 9 criteria of Wikipedia:Notability (academics) I think this guy fails each single one (although in some cases by a narrow margin). Arnoutf (talk) 17:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way I doubt whether the claim about his fame is sufficiently supported. The first "worldbank" reference does not say that he is foremost, only a university professor. The fourth Kotler link does not mention Roberto at all. The other two seem more or less promotional sites and their reliability can be doubted. Arnoutf (talk) 17:40, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree Arnoutf, Prof. Ned Roberto’s qualifications are good (Kellogg is definitely among the Top 10 in the world), but not notable. These are supplementary to his notability, but not on a standalone basis. Being on the editorial board of an international journal is notable unlike the 5300 google hits. The hits are only supplementary to his notability. This person has made significant contributions to Social Marketing specifically and Marketing in general. He had authored the first book in Social Marketing, in 1975. Please also refer Social_marketing#History_of_social_marketing. So referring to Wikipedia:Notability_(academics)#Criteria, this should satisfy condition no. 1. He has received several awards at the national and probably international level. But how prestigious those are, I’m not sure. Prof. Roberto has made a significant impact in higher education at least in the Philippines if not internationally. So, this should satisfy condition no. 4. He holds the Coca-Cola foundation chair at the Asian Institute of Management, an institution of repute with collaboration with Harvard University and exchange programs with top universities all over the world. Coca-Cola has traditionally been one of the biggest spenders if not the biggest, in advertising & marketing, in several countries. This should satisfy condition no. 5. Condition no. 6 which is similar should also be fulfilled with the previous reason. Prof. Roberto is Executive Director of the International Council for the Management of Population Programmes (ICOMP,) as mentioned at Ned_Roberto#Positions_held. So condition no. 7 would also get fulfilled. -Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 07:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

In the Kotler link, please refer to Publication no. 16 and Article no. 136. Philip Kotler is too sane a man to risk co-authoring books and articles with someone not notable. Yes, the World Bank reference doesn’t explicitly say so (only implicit.) He was the Lead Presenter & Workshop Facilitator for an International workshop. As, I’ve written in my previous post, Young Market Masters’ "official research partner" is TNS, a global market research specialist. This has been explicitly stated towards the bottom of its homepage. So, this does lend some credibility to this site. The DLSAA reference is from a reputed college’s site, so wouldn’t attach too much importance to it. However, this too isn’t promotional, coming from one of the best colleges/universities in the Philippines. -Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 07:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion most of the evidence is circumstantial (as you admit). Going through the criteria

• Cr Notability 1: No reliable source has been provided that the contribution was significant.
• Cr 2: I agree, without establishing how presitgious a price is this does not count.I myself for example received 2 academic rewards last year, yet I would not dare calling myself notable (at least not yet ;-)
• Cr 3. No memberships mentions
• Cr no 4: Within the Philippines he may be notable, but whether his teaching influenced a large number of academic institutions is not shown.
• Cr 5: It is not the issue whether Coca Cola is important but whether his university fullfills being a major institution of research (also goes for Cr 6).
• Cr 6 see Cr 5
• Cr 7: While he has been director of ICOMP that does not say that ICOMP has any impact anywhere/ i.e. is notable itself (Wikipedia has no article on it). Having served on a minor international organisation does not fulfill 7.
• Cr 8 for notability explicitly mentions that only being editor in chief of a journal qualifies as an argument, being on the board does not count.
• Cr 9, he is not reported to be in fine arts.

On account of the argument that Kotler would not co-author with a non-notable person. I disagree. Kotler would not co-author with an incompetent co-author. But competence, or even brilliance in your profession is in itself not enough to claim notability.

Whether Youngmarketmasters works with TNS or not does not say much about their own reliability, or that of the reports on their own website (which was most likely never meant to be a reliable publication!).

That all said, and showing that all notability evidence is circumstantial (and rather weak); adding all up I would not support deletion of this article based on grounds of notability (esepcially now there is more than the single one reference). I only hope we can have this discussion based on high quality arguments and sources. Arnoutf (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe the arguments made and sources given are of high quality, but you are entitled to differ. After the ample sources, from reputed organisations, I fail to understand why they aren't convincing. Please read/re-read Social_marketing#History_of_social_marketing, which says that the discipline originated after the article/book by Prof. Roberto & Kotler, in 1971. It is sufficient if a personality is important/notable in his/her country. He doesn't have to be internationally renowned. The person in question here, is fortunately not just among those renowned nationally but among the leading proponents of Social marketing in the world. It is not common to come across statements, explicitly stating the notability of a person. Good credible sources, which reasonably (subjective) and implicitly signify the notability, should suffice.

• He has indeed made a significant impact in a scholarly discipline (Social marketing in this case.)
• A company like Coca-Cola establishes its chair only in a reputed institution. only fyi, Asian Institute of Management is indeed a major institution of higher education and/or research in not just South-East Asia but also in the Asian continent. Established in 1968, it has a collaboration with some of the leading univerities of the world including Harvard University. It has exchange programmes with some of the leading business schools of the world including Wharton School.

Yes, I agree with you, Kotler wouldn't have co-authored a book with an incompetent person; irrespective of his notability. TNS is the official research partner of Youngmarketmasters and not vice-versa. Most likely, TNS approached these guys and not otherwise. This site in quesion may not be renowned internationally, but definitely is nationally (Philippines.)

Most importantly, I reiterate that Prof. Roberto may not be a figure of international repute, but definitely is one of national repute. The ample evidence/sources definitely back the claim. One has to see this person from a national/ regional perspective to rightly judge his notability, is a point I'd like to add at his juncture. -Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 14:01, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

No doubt he is of national notabillity. Based on the evidence I think he is (borderline) internationally notable. So let's not tag this one as non-notable. Arnoutf (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you User:Arnoutf for your positive attitude. -Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 05:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)