Talk:Nazi crimes against the Polish nation/Archive 1

Warmia

Should Persecution of Poles in Warmia be merged here? Olessi 19:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

German crimes against ethnic Poles

The crimes were committed by German government. It's not important if the government was Nazi or Conservative.Xx236 07:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Then you'd have to expand this article into 1000 years of history. --HanzoHattori 14:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So let's make it German crimes against ethnic Poles during WWII.Xx236 07:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

"Crimes against ethnic Poles under the Nazi occupation"?

Better title (there were also "usual" Nazi war crimes - indiscriminate bombardemnts, killings and torture of prisoners of war, etc.) --HanzoHattori 14:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I support partially, but there was no "Nazi occupation", but the German one. Xx236 08:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope. "German occupation" (military) was also, for example, during the WWI (let's say in then-Russia). "Nazi" is so simple and hard to mistake. --HanzoHattori 10:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with HanzoHattori, and further suggest that "crimes" be changed to "atrocities" or something else. In English "Crimes" includes petty illegalities.Bwood 14:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

i disagree with HanzoHattori and Bwood becuase Nazis were Germans . does not matter if germans were following racist idiology or be part of a racist political party , they were germans and germany invaded poland . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.49.122.132 (talk) 03:59, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

removal of link to article "Holocaust in Poland"

I took a quick look at the article in question and didn't see anything "questionable" about it. Regardless, if there were, the place to address it would be at *that* article, not in removing links to it. There may be arguements for merging or integrating the two articles...Bwood 21:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Wsaw-exec.jpg

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BetacommandBot 05:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

?? three million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war.

Re >>some three million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war. Over two million were ethnic Poles ( the remaining million were mainly ethnic minority Ukrainians and Belarusians living in Poland).<<

The figures above are at variance with the web site referenced as a source http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/poland_WWII_casualties.htm

From bottom of that website:

>>Poland's WWII population losses ... Ethnic Poles: 2.0 (ie NOT over two million) and Other minorities: 0.5 (ie NOT one million)<<

So total of Polish citizens non-Jewish deaths World War II per website is 2.5 million NOT 3 million.

Per the same website: of the 2.5 million Polish non-Jewish citizens who died, 450,000 died at Soviet or Ukrainian nationalist hands, and 263,000 were non-Jewish military losses, so the Polish 1938 citizens civilian non-Jewish death toll at the hands of the Germans was circa 1.8 million.

ANY statement re Polish civilian death tolls should contain words similar to "Documentation remains fragmentary." Knowing what is not known is as essential as knowing what is known for any serious evaluation of historical events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kits2 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge

I am proposing to merge World War II crimes in Poland into Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles. The two articles cover almost identical material and this page, Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles is better written and better sourced. The other article, World War II crimes in Poland, despite its name, states that its goal as follows: "This article details the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed against ethnic Poles during World War II", which is the same as the stated goal of this article (which is correctly reflected in this article's title). There is very little in World War II crimes in Poland about the crimes by the Soviet Union or about crimes against the Polish Jews. The latter is covered in Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland. Crimes by the Soviet Union are not well covered in existing articles, and, in my opinion, needs a separate article. So World War II crimes in Poland basically functions as a duplicate and a content fork for this article. Therefore I believe that a merge is in order. Nsk92 (talk) 13:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I see that the Soviet Union actions are covered in Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946). Nsk92 (talk) 14:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Object. Instead, we should expand World War II crimes in Poland to cover Soviet crimes, and Holocaust crimes. Do note that we once had an article on treatment of Polish citizens by the occupants, but it was rewritten as occupation of Poland.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There already are three articles, Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles, Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland and Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946) that deal in substantial detail with all three aspects that you mention. Those three articles are better written and better sourced than this one. Why should one try to expand this article, World War II crimes in Poland, (which is in fairly bad shape and has been so for a long time) rather than either of the other three? In practice doing so would seem to require an almost complete overhaul of World War II crimes in Poland, which currently deals almost entirely with Nazi crimes against the Poles) and replacing its content with the corresponding content from Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles. The latter article is better developed and better sourced. The article World War II crimes in Poland is largely unsourced, not as well written, and has been sort of neglected for quite a while. I think that if one were to have a good article encompassing all aspects of WWII crimes in Poland (which may be a difficult enough task to implement anyway in terms of maintaining balance), the current World War II crimes in Poland seems like a poor starting point for such a project. Nsk92 (talk) 22:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The proper course of action, IMHO, would be to expand/improve the article on WWII crimes in Poland. It is a notable subject, and a gateway into the more specialized subarticles.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

There are two problems with this. First, nobody has done it so far and the article World War II crimes in Poland has been languishing without attention in a fairly bad shape for quite a long time, basically being an unsatisfactory duplicate for a better article Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles. The second problem is that if one were to try to write a good article encompassing all three major aspects of WWII crimes in Poland, the article World War II crimes in Poland, given its present state, woold be a poor choice of a starting point for such a project. Both the articles Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland are much better written and much better sourced than the current version of World War II crimes in Poland (In fact, even a fairly incomplete article Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946) is much better sourced). So it would make more sense to try to use those two articles as the starting platform and then add to them the info about the Soviet Union crimes, from Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946). This would be a fairly ambitions and difficult project requiring quite a bit of skill and research. If somebody is really willing to do this, that'd be great. If not, I think it's better to merge World War II crimes in Poland given its current and fairly long-standing problems. Nsk92 (talk) 19:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree and stand by my earlier comments that that article is better even in the current poor form than if it would be a misleading redirect to Nazi crimes. A redirect to occupation of Poland would be better, alas, still less than satisfactory compared even to a poor article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It is a good point about redirects. I agree that redirecting World War II crimes in Poland to a single destination like Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles or Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland would be misleading since it would omit a substantial part of the topic. There is another possibility, however, namely to make World War II crimes in Poland into a disambiguation page (while merging whatever possible verifiable content it has to Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles) pointing to several different destinations: Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles, Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland, Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946) and maybe Occupation of Poland. Nsk92 (talk) 20:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Object. There were also crimes comitted by Soviet Union.--Molobo (talk) 16:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That is, of course, correct. However, there is almost nothing in the article World War II crimes in Poland about the crimes by the Soviet Union (while the relevant info is covered, even if not sufficiently thoroughly, in Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946)), and such info related to the Soviet Union as the article World War II crimes in Poland does have is problematic. For example, the article says "Three million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war, most of them civilians, killed by the actions of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union." (that is almost the only sentence related to the Soviet Union crimes in the article). No source for this figure is given and no indication is given of which portion of this figure was attributable to the Germany's actions and which portion was attributable to the Soviet Union's actions. That is really quite unsatisfactory. Nsk92 (talk) 19:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Not sure where we are here. I would like to see "ethnic Poles" in a separate article from Holocaust victims. Otherwise, the Poles "get lost" in the resulting statistics.Student7 (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I am against the merger idea. I personally like the idea of articles on Soviet crimes, Nazi crimes and the Holocaust in Poland plus a general article covering all crimes. I have offered to improve the World War II crimes in Poland provided the merger idea is dropped and agreement on the purpose of the World War II crimes in Poland article is agreed i.e. is it crimes in Poland during WWII or crimes against Ethnic Poles in WWII? Jniech (talk) 13:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Redirect World War II atrocities in Poland to this page not World War II crimes in Poland

I would suggest that the redirect of World War II atrocities in Poland should go to World War II crimes in Poland not this page. Thoughts? Jniech (talk) 14:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear All: As no-one has replied and having asked advice on a couple of other talk pages, I have moved the redirect from here to World War II crimes in Poland. If you disagree then please discuss. Jniech (talk) 13:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Why is "The Holocaust" info in the article?

As far as I know ethnic Poles are not considered Jewish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.75.159.203 (talk) 09:56, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Good point . Polish genocide should not be confused with holocaust .Holocaust info is misleading . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.49.122.132 (talk) 03:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Object. The Holocaust is recognized as having included non-Jewish victims including non-Jewish Poles, Slavs, the Roma, homosexuals, the mentally and physically handicapped, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.158.171 (talk) 15:11, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

B-class review

This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 17:51, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

In addition to the Holocaust

From the very beginning, this article shows the Nazi atricities against ethnic Poles as something secondary to the atrocities against Jews. As stated above, the infobox stating that this article is part of the series on the Holocaust is misplaced. I deleted the beginning of the section on rape because it was irrelevant. The beginning of the article should be changed too, but that requires care in order not to mess up the sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.36.4.129 (talk) 11:43, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Problems with article, 14 July 2013

Originally, "Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles" was only a logical and straight forward redirect to "World War II atrocities in Poland" (since moved to "World War II crimes in Poland"). The redirect was created on 6 June 2006. – Half a year later, on 5 December 2006 HanzoHattori – soon deprived of editing privileges indefinitely – copied almost the whole article "World War II crimes in Poland" into former redirect "Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles" (see Duplication Detector results: 2,812 words) creating a mirror article with a different title. This is where the real problems began. By the way, creating mirror articles with only a different title (for the effect) is prohibited in Wikipedia. The article was expanded in the following years, from 1,954 words of readable prose size, to 2,755 words of readable prose size. However, the actual original name of the "redirect" remained the same even though it was becoming increasingly inadequate, obviously. Please give your feedback here. We need a new proper article title for sure, but also some serious copy-editing in here. — Only after the name is changed into the NPOV one, we can discuss the text that has been adjusted to match the POV title. — However, looking at both articles side by side, I see that neither is satisfactory by our own editorial standards. The World War II crimes in Poland is but a collection of stubby paragraphs divided into superfluous sections serving as carriers for internal links. No comprehensive prose to speak of. No editorial oversight. Hundreds of unnecessary bullet points constantly breaking the train of thought.– The only logical answer would be to try to put the listed events in some kind of chronological order. Try to improve that entry though would probably take an enormous amount of time. Poeticbent talk 05:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Addendum. I can also understand the good intentions of those who created this article apart from the parent article. Because, numerous high-profile historians attempted to separate the history of Holocaust from the fate of gentile population of Poland, thus making non-Jewish victims less visible (if not responsible for their own demise). Most notably, Richard C. Lukas, in The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1944 addressed this issue (quote): "by showing that no one can properly analyze the fate of one ethnic community in occupied Poland without referring to the fates of others". – We need to do the same, and make sure that all of our articles refer to the fate of others as well, while describing the history of German occupation of Poland. Poeticbent talk 17:06, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

It is logical to separate the treatment of different ethnic groups, but I agree a lot of cross linking would be a good idea. Rsloch (talk) 18:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm afraid, I didn't make myself clear enough in the opening statement, leading to an obvious misunderstanding. The invasion of Poland was not an invasion of "ethnic groups", but an invasion of Poland. Separation of the treatment of different ethnic groups in the title would have been logical only, if it was an internal conflict. Polish borders were not the borders of some medieval township where the ethnic groups reside without the sense of national identity. At the level of article title, there are only two sensible alternatives: either, it was the Nazi German invasion of Poland leading to war crimes and crimes against humanity in Poland; or, the Soviet invasion of Poland leading to the same. The ethnic groups might have been treated differently, however, it was the Third Reich who committed the crimes described here. The new name needs to reflect the conventions used by government agencies (i.e. IPN) and the professional historians. I did some research. It looks like the most commonly used phrase is the "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation". I'm adding new references. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 01:47, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Could you define exactly what you mean by 'the Polish nation'? Are we talking a geographic entity? A historical one? Rsloch (talk) 11:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for asking. This is a long-standing debate going back to December 1946, when the newly established pro-Soviet government of Poland amended the parliamentary Decree of August 31, 1944, thus making the Polish definition of war crime not applicable from the outset, in connection with the Soviet World War II crimes in Poland (see: Dziennik Ustaw Nr 69. Poz. 377. Zalacznik drafted by the Polish Committee of National Liberation.[1] Since 2000, the Institute of National Remembrance Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation has attempted to repair the damage "in accordance with the principles conveyed in the international law". The Insitute defines its own mission in the following way: "The IPN investigates crimes against people of Polish origin, as well as Polish citizens of other origin and other citizens who were harmed in the Polish territories."[2] Poeticbent talk 18:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Then a definition is needed in the intro. I've edited that section to make into more streamlined and comprehensible. We have to be careful in pushing the IPN as a source over other perfectly scholarly ones. Rsloch (talk) 14:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Just a reminder that nobody owns this article and others can edit it as long as they comply by the rules. I made three changes, one to pull two sentences together removing a possibly dubious claim about what was the epicentre of Nazi crimes, two removing material about German losses which would be outside the scope of the article, and that gave the Institute of National Remembrance too much prominence over other sources, and three created a new section for material on Nazi policy towards the Poles. We may not agree with each other's changes but can we avoid reverting them especially with no explanation? Rsloch (talk) 08:58, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Most of your edits unfortunately consist of deleting information about Nazi extermination of Poles and Jews, removal of sourced content and false claims that Jews weren't exterminated in Silesia. IPN is a trusted scholarly source, I doubt you will be able to find one claiming Holocaust in Silesia for example didn't happen.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

You do know that this article isn't about Silesia? Rsloch (talk) 19:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Nazi extermination of Poles and Jews whom they considered subhuman happened in Silesia as well, and this article covers it just like extermination policies in Pomerania, Greater Poland, Warsaw etc.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Sigh. Have a read of WP:CIV. Rsloch (talk) 19:52, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:B-Class criteria

Article has been checked according to WikiProject article quality grading scheme in the following categories.

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Poland/Assessment (click for more).
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment.

Thanks, Poeticbent talk 04:40, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

@User:Poeticbent: Uh, I'd fail it as B-class - quickfail, as I see numerous unreferenced paragraphs. Without getting into the topic of sentence referencing, we can all, I hope, agree that unreferenced paragraph is a big red flag - and this article sports at least several. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:17, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Please see my comment below. I will transfer some of the raw data shortly. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 16:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm in the process of writing another article at present, about Dr Berek Lajcher, leader of the perilous Treblinka uprising. I will get to this when I'm finished with it. Poeticbent talk 20:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Take your time, in the meantime I'll mark this article as C-class until such a time that at least each paragraph has a citation. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Looking at this after the GA fail: I still cannot confirm this as B-class, too many unref claims (I marked them with cite req tags). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Nazi crimes against the Polish nation/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Halibutt (talk · contribs) 07:12, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly. //Halibutt 07:12, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

First of all, this article seems like a much shorter and less-well-developed version of World War II crimes in occupied Poland. That article reads much better, has plenty of in-line citations and generally seems like what this article could become when properly worked on. I would consider merging what new info is there in this article into that one, and promoting it to GA then. //Halibutt 08:57, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

As to specific issues:

Lead and general remarks

• Generally the lead looks better without citations. Generally, you don't need citations in the lead section so long as you're citing the same information in the body, you can omit cites up top. It's but a suggestion though, not a requirement.

Your're correct about the better looks, but this is a controversial article with a history of edit wars starting from the opening paragraph. All controversial subjects invite tagging whenever any factual information is mentioned in the lead without reference. Usually, inline citations prevent this kind of knee-jerk reaction. However, to declutter the lead editing, I reformatted all anchors using {{sfn}} template. I hope it helps. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 20:22, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

• References and citations: It's generally tidier to separate citations from references. WP:CITE doesn't force you to use a single citation scheme though. However, I believe the article would benefit from using a consistent references scheme. How about using {{cite book}}, {{cite web}} and {{cite journal}} templates and filling all the missing info? I mean author names, publication dates, publishers and so on.
• same goes for consistency when using (or not) the language tags: either use {{pl icon}} and {{en icon}} for all references or omit them. Personally I like to include them, but it's a matter of taste, just be consistent with it.
• WP:CITE suggest we use "p." rather than "pg." as the abbreviation for "page". "cite" templates use that abbreviation by default.
• Since a large part of references are in Polish, it is a good practice to include a translation of titles in the ref. When using {{cite book}} template just fill in the trans_title= parameter.
• I believe the article could benefit from a section describing what the Polish nation actually is. The problems with WWII and post-WWII sources is that there are at least several conflicting views. Currently most works on the Holocaust for instance accept the Nazi German division of Polish citizens on people declared Jews by the Nazis (regardless of whether they actually were Jews or not), and gentile Poles (regardless of whether they were ethnic Poles, or Polish Germans for instance). IMHO this merits an explanation in the article.
• Splitting notes from in-line citations would also do this article good, per Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Separating citations from explanatory footnotes
• Images and their copyright status:
  • File:Bekanntmachung Warschau 1943.jpg is wrongly tagged as {{PD-Art}}.

1939 September Campaign

• "Soon after the German invasion of Poland..." - sentence is too long and slightly too complicated, I'd consider splitting it
• "In "Intelligenzaktion Pommern"..." - first part of the sentence refers to a local part of Intelligenzaktion, the latter part to whole country, which doesn't seem clear from the context.
• "In the mid-1940s, the AB-Aktion saw several..." - AB-Aktion started in 1940. I wouldn't call this "mid-1940s".

Terror and pacification

• " Poland was the only country in occupied Europe where the ..." - this sentence needs a citation
• "Seventy-five villages were razed in these operations." - same here
• " He envisioned the future 'dry guillotine'..." - same here

Concentration camps

• Practically every sentence in this section needs a citation.
• Again, it is unclear who the "non-Jewish Poles" are. My grandpa was declared a Polish political prisoner by the Germans. His schoolmate was declared a Jew by the Germans (one of his grandparents was a Catholic convert from Judaism). Both ended up in the concentration camps.
• "An estimated 30,000 non-Jewish Poles died at Mauthausen-Gusen..." citation badly needed. Also, in the case of Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp (my FA from way back) I have never seen such numbers. One early estimate for the total death toll is 122000, including slightly over 30,000 "Polish citizens", without any mention of whether their religion or ancestry. I guess the numbers for other camps need checking as well.
• "Medical experiments" sub-section is too narrow in scope. It lists numerous unconnected facts, without much general outlook. I added a link to Nazi human experimentation, but perhaps the section could be expanded?

Indiscriminate executions

• Again, the section needs more citations before it can be reviewed.

Forced labor in Germany

• More citations needed. I could add {{fact}} tags to the article to help with identifying the places where citations should be, but I guess you get the idea.
• "This did not mean old style of Germanization..." - the sentence suggests that the Poles living in the aforementioned areas were settled with Germans. I get what the author means, but an uninformed reader might not, this needs clarification.
• " Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussiathe Gauleiter Albert Forster..." - unclear. I would also suggest mentioning that the subscription to the Volksliste was a complicated matter, and that some did it voluntarily, while others had not much of a choice.
• "Signs posted in front of those establishments..." - actually such signs were not only in front of establishments confiscated from their Polish owners. "Racial" segregation and economic exploitation, while related, were not directly linked as far as I know. This needs ironing out.
• "The Nazi regime was less stringent in their treatment ..." - ref needed. Also, I believe a mention of Silesia and Goralenvolk could fit in here nicely.

Crimes against children

• Parts of this section are directly related to "Germanization" above. How about merging them? Also, the sub-section on "Persecution of Catholic clergy" isn't really related to children, is it.
• The article on Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany has some numbers, why not use them here?
• "A camp for children and teenagers..." - ref needed
• "In Pomerania, all but 20 of the 650 priests..." - ref needed.
• The data for Catholic clergy from Breslau doesn't really fit in the article on persecution of Poles, does it. Also, a reference for the data cited would be in place.

The destruction of Polish Jewry (1942-43)

• Again, the article lacks a decent description of its' scope: who is a Pole, who is a Polish Jew, how are the two groups related. This seems obvious to informed readers, but the article should be legible to uninformed readers as well.
• "The camps were designed and operated by Nazi Germans..." not sure this sentence fits in this article. The "Polish death camps" controversy doesn't really belong in this article in any form, except perhaps as a See also.

1944 destruction of Warsaw

• more references needed

Generally the laundry list is pretty long, and includes really serious stuff. I mean GA criteria:

• 1b (problem with sections and sub-sections)
• 2a and 2b (consistent citation style, lack of proper citations where needed)
• 3b (the article doesn't seem focused on the topic at times)
• 6a (one instance of badly-tagged image)

I would really suggest merging the article with World War II crimes in occupied Poland, as there would be much less work with that article. Other than that, I also asked User:Piotrus for his thoughts on this issue. I'm putting the article on hold for now, let's see where it gets us. Note that, even after this list is done, it will require another read-through to see what's left to be done, as right now it's still "under construction" in my mind. Overall the article shows promise, but this needs substantial refinement to progress up the chain IMHO. //Halibutt 09:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you Halibutt for picking up this nomination from the lineup. I see GAN as an opportunity to actually develop this article further with feedback, rather than abandon it as a prospective Good Article. Without feedback, I would have probably stopped editing in here. The reasons for extra effort are simple in my view. The World War II crimes committed by Nazi Germany in occupied Poland deserve a full size article separate from the 'other' perpetrators of crimes against humanity in the same period described in the original article. I nominated this article before the overhaul of the other one (between 20 September and 1 October 2013) mainly to get inspired by you. I will be addressing your comments gradually (top to bottom) in the next few days with possible expansion of raw data from the mother article beginning with September 1939 crimes. Poeticbent talk 16:48, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• "Medical experiments" sub-section is too narrow in scope. It lists numerous unconnected facts, without much general outlook. I added a link to Nazi human experimentation, but perhaps the section could be expanded?

I can expand it.

• "This did not mean old style of Germanization..." - the sentence suggests that the Poles living in the aforementioned areas were settled with Germans. I get what the author means, but an uninformed reader might not, this needs clarification.

This actually incorrect. Nazis adopted several ideas that were already proposed under German Empire. I will add this(with sources of course)

• "A camp for children and teenagers..." - ref needed

Will do

• ""The data for Catholic clergy from Breslau doesn't really fit in the article on persecution of Poles"

Will add data on persecution of Polish population within Germany itself, including Wroclaw. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:57, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

• • G'day Halibutt, I am just trawling through old MILHIST GANs and this one is looking very stale, pass or not? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:09, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Please wait, I'm sure Halibutt would also be kind enough to wait a bit longer. I'm in the process of trying to address the FA nomination reviews for Treblinka. A lot of work there, but most comments have already been dealt with. I will continue here soon enough. Thanks for the patience, Poeticbent talk 02:12, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• It's been another three weeks, and only a single edit in the meantime. This has now been open for two months and three weeks, and I suggest that it needs action now, or be allowed to close. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:00, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

All I can say it that I nominated three different articles at about the same time knowing about the usual long delays (up to three months I was told). Meanwhile the work on Treblinka FAC continues with more and more requests for clarifications. The Treblinka FAC nomination will be re-started again at the end of this month. It is up to User:Halibutt to decide what to do next because I intend to return to this GAN eventually or renominate the article if necessary. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:07, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

• The Treblinka FAC closed as unsuccessful on December 16 after being open for a month and a half, and it's clear you intend to restart it immediately after the two week wait is over. Since that is occupying all your time, and seems likely to do so for the next month if not more, it sounds like a closure of this now and renomination once you can devote the necessary time to it is the fairest option. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

• agree, very stale nomination. I suggest close and renom. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 05:42, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Closing comment

The reviewer, Halibutt, has not edited on Wikipedia for a full month, and the nominator, Poeticbent, has been occupied for over two months on another FAC, which will continue to take precedence for the next several weeks. Given the loss of the former and lack of attention by the latter, it clearly makes sense to close this nomination now; as Peacemaker67 notes, it is quite stale. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Compensation

There should be mentioned that the modern German goverment payed back for these atrocities to the families of victims and the Polish government in the contemporary Poland.
Additionally, it should be added that Germans did pay for the reconstruction of many buildings in Polish cities and gave back and renovated the stolen pieces of art.
It may be the last section but it is needed to change the unduly demonised character of Germans shown in this article.
85.202.46.96 (talk) 15:23, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

"unduly" is pure, unadulterated POV. What the Nazis did in Poland was beyond inhumanity, as any number or Reliable Sources state. And while I am straying into WP:FORUM territory for a moment, the payment of money to families and rebuilding of material things is little compensation for something as irreversible as mass murder.HammerFilmFan (talk) 10:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

• I wouldn't mind helping you with that, user 85.202.46.96 (talk · contribs) from Kujawsko-Pomorskie, Poland, but please provide reliable third party sources in support of your claim instead of just WP:FORUM shopping in talk. Please read the article in Polish, published in the magazine wPolityce.pl, (quoted below):

Polska nie otrzymała dotychczas stosownej kompensaty finansowej i reparacji wojennych za olbrzymie zniszczenia i straty (…) wywołane przez niemiecką agresję, ludobójstwo i utratę niepodległości przez Polskę. Sejm wzywa rząd RP do podjęcia stosownych działań w tej materii wobec rządu RFN.
[...]
Oświadczenie z 23 sierpnia 1953 roku o zrzeczeniu się reparacji wojennych było podjęte zgodnie z ówczesnym porządkiem konstytucyjnym, a ewentualne naciski ze strony ZSRR nie mogą być uznane za groźby użycia siły z pogwałceniem zasad prawa międzynarodowego, wyrażonych w karcie ONZ.

— Sejm IV kadencji, 10 września 2004.

Poeticbent talk 17:11, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Can onyone translate it? 188.252.10.2 (talk) 19:39, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwpolityce.pl%2Fpolityka%2F147520-kwestia-niemieckich-reparacji-wojennych-nad-cala-ta-problematyka-ciazy-traktat-z-1991-r-miedzy-rfn-i-rp&edit-text=

 Denied. You want the short answer? "Your claims (from above) are false." Poeticbent talk 16:21, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

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Extermination of hospital patients subsection

I don't understand certain phrases.Xx236 (talk) 07:07, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Forced labor subsection

Repeated phrases about sexual crimes.Xx236 (talk) 07:19, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Camps and ghettos subsection

The majority of 50,000 Poles imprisoned at Mauthausen-Gusen perished mostly in Gusen;[69] 150,000 at Auschwitz, - but 150.000 was the number of ethnic Polish prisoners, the number of deaths was lower.Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Confusion

On 8 June 2014, 07:01, Woogie10w removed from the lede some text without removing note "a", which was related to that deleted text and which I am to comment out, for now. Carlotm (talk) 03:26, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Please delete

This article is dirty propaganda. How do I suggest it for speedy deletion. --105.4.169.198 (talk) 16:42, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Or maybe you don't want to deal with your grandpa's dirty past? 2A01:11CF:4000:D300:3948:5CEF:D980:B94 (talk) 09:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

POV tag

Article is somewhat of a WP:POVFORK of War crimes in occupied Poland during World War II (or maybe Occupation of Poland (1939–1945) / Generalplan Ost / Expulsion of Poles by Nazi Germany). There are a number of problems, particularly in the lead -

1. use of BIASED sources.
2. Over emphasis of the IPN in the lead.
3. The title (it does not seem we have a "Nazi crimes against" article versus any other nation).
4. Overall tone - I'm not sure I'dd call this "dirty propaganda" as the IP above (particularly since the Nazies did commit atrocities in Poland and against Poles), but as presently written it is more propaganda than a historical account.
5. Conflation of statements by some Nazi officials (e.g. Himmler) with actual actions by the Nazi administration.Icewhiz (talk) 05:46, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

• This debate has been going on for 5 years, at least. And nothing has changed. Please read the section above from 2013: Talk:Nazi crimes against the Polish nation#Problems with article, 14 July 2013 (among other sections). Below is the plain difference between Contents of these two articles. The first one is about the joint actions of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and their respective allies, and the second one is about Nazi or Hitlerite crimes (Polish: Zbrodnia nazistowska or zbrodnia hitlerowska) committed by Nazi Germany and their collaborationist forces. Notably, Poland was attacked from both sides by completely opposing cultures. Even though, war crimes have been committed in occupied Poland in the name of two strikingly different ideologies (Communism and/or Fascism), war crimes as such were war crimes.

War crimes in occupied Poland during World War II

Nazi crimes against the Polish nation

Contents 1 The invasion of Poland (September 1939) 1.1 Indiscriminate executions by firing squad 1.2 Bombing campaigns 2 Joint German and Soviet occupation (September 1939 – June 1941) 3 Soviet war crimes against Poland 3.1 Katyn massacre of Polish military echelon by the NKVD 3.2 Soviet deportations as a means of ethnic cleansing 3.3 Cultural destruction of Kresy 4 Terror in the German zone of occupation 4.1 German pacifications of Polish settlements 4.2 Extermination of psychiatric patients 4.3 Treatment of Polish Jews prior to the Holocaust 4.4 Cultural genocide 4.5 Forced evictions and roundups of slave labour 4.5.1 Concentration camps 4.5.2 Forced labour camps 5 German–Soviet war of aggression (July 1941 – December 1944) 5.1 Soviet executions of civilian prisoners June–July 1941 6 The Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland 6.1 Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibor, and Treblinka 6.2 Auschwitz-Birkenau 7 Ukrainian massacres in occupied Poland 8 German massacres during the Soviet counter-offensive 8.1 Warsaw Uprising massacres 9 The end of German rule and the return of the Soviets (January 1945) 9.1 Internment of Polish nationals 10 Estimated casualties of World War II and its aftermath (120,892 bytes)

Contents 1 1939 September Campaign 1.1 Terror and pacification operations 2 Ethnic cleansing through forced expulsion 3 Polish Resistance 4 Camps and ghettos 5 Forced labor 6 Germanization 6.1 Crimes against children 6.2 Cultural genocide 7 Indiscriminate executions 7.1 Extermination of hospital patients 8 Persecution of the Catholic Church 9 The destruction of Polish Jewry (1941–43) 10 1944 destruction of Warsaw (90,075 bytes)

Any new thoughts, or ideas? Poeticbent talk 20:27, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

What I see from 5 years ago (as well as the IP above) is an an uninvolved editor raising concerns and not really taking it forward beyond that. I am considering an AfD or merge proposal - and the topic as a topic is not titled or presented in a neutral manner and is duplicated elsewhere. Any thoughts on what the merge target should be?Icewhiz (talk) 05:30, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

• After reading the archives and Poeticbents' information, I'm against any merger of this page.GizzyCatBella (talk) 10:14, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

The WP:Request for Comment would be an absolute requirement for any change. Poeticbent talk 15:14, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Quick reply. Other nations, especially Slavs, don't have special words for the Nazi crimes against civilians similar to the Holocaust of the Jews, which became the most commonly used phrase around the 1960s. The article could have been named Poland's (non-Jewish and Jewish) Holocaust per Tadeusz Piotrowski who said that: "this expanded definition of the Holocaust is the recognition that such policies were pursued in many countries and that among their victims in many countries were people of numerous nationalities and religious backgrounds." The Nazi crimes were introduced by the International Military Tribunal as part of the new legal definition of the Crimes Against Humanity (no Stalinist crimes were included in it at that time).[3][4] Poeticbent talk 15:14, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Request for title change

Can we change the title to "Nazi Genocide of Poles," or something that conveys the same meaning? Both the extermination of the Jews and the murder of millions of Poles are regarded as genocides. It is strange to describe the murders of millions of Jewish Poles and millions of non-Jewish Poles--inspired by racial theory that depicted Jews AND Slavs as inferior--as something as abstract as a "crime against the Polish nation." Steeletrap (talk) 05:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion. Perhaps "Nazi German genocide of Poles"?

Nihil novi (talk) 06:54, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I think we want to flag the Jews specifically since, though millions of Poles were also exterminated, the Nazis (perhaps unique in history, including among genocidal regimes) wanted to kill every Jew. It's also important to flag the Slavs as having been subject to genocide since (for whatever reason) this isn't well known.

Therefore I propose "Nazi German genocide of Jewish and Slavic Poles" as the title of this page. Steeletrap (talk) 19:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Excellent. Nihil novi (talk) 06:29, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

So, you're saying that the only crime perpetrating by the Nazis against the Poles was genocide, nothing else? Because that's what your new title is suggesting. The appropriation of property, the looting of shops, the stealing of "Aryan-looking" Polish children to be sent to Germany, the mass taking of food and material to feed the Wehrmacht, the deliberate and unnecessary destruction of villages, etc. etc., none of these were crimes, and this article will only deal with genocide? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:37, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Interesting question. "Genocide", according to Wikipedia, is "intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part." The concept can subsume many sins, including all the ones you enumerate. If "genocide" were to be included in this article's title, it would not be with the intent of neglecting the crimes that you mention, but of highlighting the Germans' ultimate intentions.

"Nazi crimes" does seem an anemic expression for what the Germans were up to in Poland. We are, perhaps, just at the beginning of a discussion about the title.

Nihil novi (talk) 07:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

It's also significant that -- as opposed to their goal to totally eliminate the Jewish population of Europe, including Poland, which had at the time the largest Jewish population of any European state -- the extermination of Slavic Poles was not the Nazi's goal. They certainly wanted to eliminate the educated, the upper class, and anyone else with the potential to become a leader for the Poles against Germany, they aimed to devastate Polish culture, they wanted to take the Poles' land, livestock, shops and other property and give it to resettled Germans (Lebenraum), but they also wanted the Slavic Polish population to continue to exist to be enslaved in the service of that new German society they planned to build there.

Certainly they had no inhibitions about killing Slavic Poles whenever they felt it necessary, or even just because they felt like it or were enraged about some supposed sabotage or disrespect, so they had no real care if the population was drastically reduced -- after all, they didn't need the entire existing Slavic Polish people as slaves, they could afford to be careless about murdering them, but, ultimately, the Poles were supposed to become a degraded and degenerate population which would act as slaves, with minimal education, and no intrinsic culture. In a way, that's almost worse then genocide: at least the people killed in a genocide are out of their misery, but the Nazis planned for millions of Slavic Poles to live their lives in abject misery, poverty, and degradation, constantly under the boot of the new German population. In my estimation, the Nazi's crimes against Slavic Poland went far beyond simple genocide, and I think narrowing the focus of the article by changing its title would be a mistake, and would be misleading. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:07, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Just to say that the Nazis had pretty much the same plan for Ukraine, Byelorussia, Russia and other parts of the Soviet Union, but because the invasion and occupation of Poland went so quickly and smoothly, the Nazis had more time to perpetrate their crimes against the Poles that they didn't have in Ukraine and elsewhere, although they did start taking the same kinds of actions that they had taken in Poland (and the collaboration of some anti-semetic Ukrainian groups confuses matters somewhat when comparing the two situations). Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:17, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

True, the Nazis figured that 15% of the ethnic-Polish population would suffice for their needs. But bear in mind that genocide is "intentional action to destroy a people... in whole or in part." So I wouldn't let the Nazis off the hook too easily.

I appreciate your raising these caveats, and I expect the matter of the title will require further thought.

Nihil novi (talk) 09:01, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that the Nazis aren't guilty of genocide in egard to the Polish people, just that their crimes against the Poles were more extensive than that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

If the Armenian genocide was a genocide (as it was), then the Nazi murder of millions of Poles was. In fact this was more extreme since more Poles were killed and there was actually a plan to eliminate the Poles as a people, even if a small number could be permitted to live as slaves or as Germanized 'raically valuable' Poles who had repudiated their heritage. That is a genocide. Steeletrap (talk) 18:49, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Again, I'm not arguing that it wasn't a genocide, I'm arguing that "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation" covers more than the genocide, so changing the name of the article to say that it's about the genocide would not be a good idea. There was no plan that I'm aware of to eliminate the Poles in toto, they were to remain a helot race. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:07, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

There was a plan to eliminate them insofar as even those persons of polish ancestry who were permitted to survive would have to stop identifying as Polish. The documentary record explicitly includes a plan to 'eliminate the concept of Polishness.' Steeletrap (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that accords with what I'm aware of. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:36, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

An additional source of confusion

In Poland the "Holocaust" is often referred to the mass murder of Poles, Jewish and Slavic, since millions of non-Jews and Jews were killed. This is a controversial definition since ethnic Poles were not sent to gas chambers and the Nazis had no plans to kill all of them ("only" 85% or so). Steeletrap (talk) 18:52, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia, which means that we should use the commonly accepted meaning of the Holocaust in English, not the Polish meaning. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:08, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Agreed; I'm just noting that this is a point of confusion in some of the sources. Editors think sources from Poland are talking specifically about Jews when they refer to deaths in the Holocaust. Steeletrap (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

A good point. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:37, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Some Jews have laid claim to the ancient Greek and biblical term "holocaust", with the added implication that their holocaust was unique in history. This monopolization of the word, and the assertion that the World War II crime against humanity was historically unique, have been questioned. An expression such as "Jewish genocide" would be less fraught.

In any case, "Nazi German genocide of Poles" may still be a conceivable title or section title for this article.

Nihil novi (talk) 22:29, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

A section title would certainly seem appropriate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

BTW, it's not "some Jews" who use the Holocaust (with a capital "H"), to refer to the Nazi killings of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, et al. It is the accepted general use of the term in the English language. Some Jewish people prefer to use "the Shoah". Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Proposed Title Change: Nazi German Plan to Eliminate the Polish People

This is supported by the sources. We all know they wanted to kill all the Polish Jews. Regarding non-Jewish Poles, Himmler said (as quoted in the lede): ""All Polish specialists will be exploited in our military-industrial complex. Later, all Poles will disappear from this world. It is imperative that the great German nation considers the elimination of all Polish people as its chief task." One can see how serious the Germans were about these policies through the fact that they murdered about 3 million Jewish and 3 million non-Jewish Poles over the course of the war, while forcibly deporting millions more of the latter out of Germany.

One might object to the term "eliminate" insofar as all people with Polish descent were not to be killed; 15% of Poles would be kept alive as slaves or (in the case of the racially valuable) Germanized on the condition that they repudiated their ancestry. But the Polish ethnicity and the concept of Jewish or Slavic Poles would be eliminated. The atrocities described in this piece all were in furtherance of this plan. The current version is exasperatingly vague: genocide is not something so anodyne and abstract as a crime against a nation.

And with that I rest my case: "Nazi German Plan to Eliminate the Polish People" should be our title. Readers who want to see what elimination or Vernichtung (the term the Nazis themselves used) meant in practice–i.e. the murder of all Jews and 85% of non–JewishPoles–need only read the lede. Steeletrap (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

"Nazi German plan to eliminate the Polish people" is a vast improvement over the anemic, and thus obfuscatory, "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation". The proposed title, as you say, accurately reflects the content of the lead, which appears to accurately summarize the article.

Thanks. Finally we would have a clearly identified article on Germany's plans for the Polish realm of the Slavic world.

Nihil novi (talk) 22:54, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I would eliminate the "German" in that title and decap it: i.e. "Nazi plan to eliminate the Polish people". Also, a title change is technically an RM -why don't you set up a Requested Move discussion to formalize this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Your title is an improvement. I'm not sure how to request a move technically. Please feel free to edit this thread accordingly if you do. Steeletrap (talk) 03:31, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I've done so below. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:46, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 9 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED There is consensus opposing the proposed title. Several other titles have been floated which may be discussed further subsequent proposals. Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:01, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

---

Nazi crimes against the Polish nation → Nazi plan to eliminate the Polish people. See #Request for title change, and #Proposed Title Change: Nazi German Plan to Eliminate the Polish People, above. Beyond My Ken (talk) (as proxy for Nihil Novi and Steeletrap) 03:46, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support. The proposed title, "Nazi plan to eliminate the Polish people", is a vast improvement over the current anemic and anodyne, and thus obfuscatory, title, "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation". The proposed title accurately reflects the content of the lead, which accurately summarizes the content of the article. Nihil novi (talk) 07:11, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support. This is supported by the sources and reflects the main point of the piece/all policies described therein. We all know they wanted to kill all the Polish Jews. Regarding non-Jewish Poles, Himmler said (as quoted in the lede): ""All Polish specialists will be exploited in our military-industrial complex. Later, all Poles will disappear from this world. It is imperative that the great German nation considers the elimination of all Polish people as its chief task." One can see how serious the Germans were about these policies through the fact that they murdered about 3 million Jewish and 3 million non-Jewish Poles over the course of the war, while forcibly deporting millions more of the latter out of Germany. Steeletrap (talk) 07:15, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose for now see my comment moved below. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current title is fine and I see no strong policy arguments in favor of this move. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposed title sounds like an interesting topic, but does not seem to be the topic of this, the current article. (But I don't like the current title either; "crimes against the nation" is vague and unencyclopedic. Nazi efforts to eliminate the Polish people/nation might work.) —  AjaxSmack  00:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
• Split the difference: Nazi crimes against the Polish people or Nazi crimes against Poles or something to this effect. This would fix three problems: A) This article is about the warcrimes, not about the plans per se, as detailed in the discussion below. 2) It will fixes the weird PoV problem of trying to make this about the offenses of one nation-state against another, a grotesque legalism. That is not even close to the nature of the atrocities nor descriptive of our coverage of them. 3) It would correctly identify the nature of the plan/crimes as genocide against Poles (among other Slavs), not just a strictly geographical idea of emptying Polish land for German citizens. Poles outside of Poland were concentration-camped and dumped in mass graves just like those in Poland were. The coverage in this article needs to be consistent with that in the Holocaust article with is focused on genocide against Jews (and some other groups like Gypsies broadly defined, and those born with disabilities, and homo/bisexuals), not pretending this all had to do with territory and international relations. It's deeply bound up in the Nazi's "master race" delusion. This suggestion is in line with AjaxSmack's reformulation, but less euphemistic than "efforts".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

  @Beyond My Ken, Nihil novi, Steeletrap, Peacemaker67, Rreagan007, and AjaxSmack: What do youse all thing of this?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

  I would support a move to Nazi crimes against the Polish people if Nazi genocide against the Polish people has insufficient support. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose / possibly wrong venue: "Crimes against the Polish nation" appears to be a legal term; see for example: Memory Laws, Memory Wars: The Politics of the Past in Europe and Russia. For a while, Poland had a "Main Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against the Polish Nation", which was later rolled into the Institute of National Rememberance as an investigative / prosecutorial function, as discussed here. The article on War crimes in occupied Poland during World War II already exists and I wonder if this article duplicates portions of the former. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I wouldn't worry about the Polish word naród, quoted above as "nation". "Naród" means both "nation" and "people". Nihil novi (talk) 06:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

Isn't the Nazi plan, the Generalplan Ost, already described? Xx236 (talk) 11:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Generalplan Ost entailed the planned enslavement, expulsion, and mass murder of most Slavic peoples (and substantial parts of the Baltic peoples). This article, now titled "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation", focuses specifically on the Germans' plans for Poland.

Nihil novi (talk) 12:45, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

This article lists rather specific German crimes than general Nazi plans. I'm not sure if any Nazi plans were fully implemented. The Holocaust is according to recent research a result of many decisions. Hitler didn't allow to create Russian troops, but his officers created Vlasov's army. Xx236 (talk) 13:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Comment: If the article is intended to cover Nazi Germany's theoretical plans to destroy the Polish nation, it should match Final Solution to the Czech Question, or that article should be moved to match this one. If it is intended to cover actual Nazi policies in occupied Poland, which we know fell far short of actually destroying the Polish nation, than I think "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation" is appropriate. Catrìona (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

No it shouldn't. Terrible as the Czech occupation was, a policy of genocide (i.e. plans to murder 85% of Czechs) did not follow. Steeletrap (talk) 15:38, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

According to "Final Solution of the Czech Question", the Germans conducted scientific studies of the Czech population and found it to be more "Aryan" than much of Germany and Austria, and they hoped to Germanize the Czechs except for the intelligentsia, which they proposed to send to Siberia but never got the chance to due to Soviet interference in the Germans' efforts to reorganize Europe. Not quite the same program as the Germans anticipated for the Poles (85% to be murdered).

Nihil novi (talk) 22:42, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

The Czechs had their (more or less Nazi) army Government Army (Bohemia and Moravia). The Nazi repressions were caused by SOE's Operation Anthropoid. Much bigger repressions in Poland remain unknown. Xx236 (talk) 07:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment this move would change the scope of the article to the plans to do so, rather than the actual crimes committed. If we were to use the definition of genocide as posited by Lemkin (who invented it), the various techniques of genocide; political, social, economic, biological, physical, religious and moral, all fall within it. It is not as narrow as some have suggested above. Lemkin makes this clear both in his general definition and in his specific chapters dealing with both the integrated territories of Poland and the General Government. I would have thought Nazi genocide against the Polish people would be a far better title than the one suggested. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:50, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• I think to use "genocide" in the title, you'd need to provide very strong, very reliable, very neutral sources which refer to a "Polish genocide". It's not a phrase that's familiar to me, which means I probably haven't come across it in my extensive reading about Nazi Germany, but that reading has not been focused on their actions against the Poles, so perhaps I have just missed it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:28, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• I'm not suggesting it is specifically called "the Polish genocide", the suggested title is descriptive. Are you familiar with Lemkin from your extensive reading? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• No, unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Lemkin -- not enough hours in the day, not enough days in the year, too many books piled everywhere waiting for my attention. What's the title? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• Ah, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe. Worthwhile? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Sorry, yes, I should have been specific. Lemkin coined the term "genocide", defined it, and wrote the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide for the UN. Axis Rule... is a fundamental book for understanding genocide and occupation in Europe during WWII, and contains in-depth discussion of the techniques of genocide practised by the Axis powers, examining laws throughout occupied Europe that contributed to it' along with each occupied country. Also, Ngram shows "genocide in Poland" is a term that has been used since the 1960s.[5] Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for that information. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:05, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Rafael Lemkin is credited with authoring the legal concept of "genocide"; Hersch Lauterpacht, the legal concept of "crimes against humanity", All genocides are crimes against humanity, but not all crimes against humanity are genocides; genocides require a higher standard of proof, as they entail intent to destroy a particular group.

Nihil novi (talk) 03:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Interestingly, both these Jewish-Polish jurists were born at the turn of the 20th century in Eastern Galicia and studied law at Lwów University.

Nihil novi (talk) 03:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

"To destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group" is what it says in full. Lemkin specifically identifies several techniques of genocide that applied to Poland during WWII. Among others, the technique of biological genocide being used in Poland; via the policy of depopulation, measures aimed at decreasing the birthrate of Poles, separation of males from females through forced labour, and undernourishment. Each technique of genocide I listed above detailed by Lemkin has at least one Polish example in his book. It would actually be a good way to organise the material in this article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Clarifying comment We know that Himmler made a remark about eliminating the Poles. But Rubinstein (2014) Genocide, Routledge, concludes that "Nazi policy towards the Poles did not, at least during the period when it occupied most of Poland, entail the immediate and deliberate genocide of the entire Polish people, Himmler's remarks notwithstanding." I think that one could read Lemkin to justify the use of genocide in the title of this article, and quite a number of Germans were convicted of the crime of genocide in the RuSHA and Ministries cases of the Nuremberg trials for actions relating to Poland and Poles. Therefore the whole idea that there was actually a plan to eliminate the Polish people is brought into question, even if genocide is supported by sources and was proven at law. Even if this passage from Rubinstein is read to imply that eventual genocide against Poles may have been intended by Himmler, as far as I am concerned, there just isn't enough to show there was a plan to "eliminate" the Polish nation. I therefore think the article should therefore remain at the current title (or the genocide one I have suggested), and should remain focussed on the Nazi crimes against the Poles. I don't love the "Polish nation" bit. It could be read as an attempt to parse ethnic Poles from other citizens of Poland. Perhaps it should be at Nazi crimes against the Polish people or Nazi crimes in Poland? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:25, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Rubenstein's remark is full of weasel-words ("immediate" "entire Polish people"). 20% of all etnic (non-Jewish) Poles were killed by the Nazis. More were killed in reprisals during the Warsaw uprising than people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's disgraceful how, in emphasizing the Jewish Holocaust (which deserves emphasis), the genocide of the Poles has been reduced to an afterthought by many scholars.

Regardless, the death toll (1/5 of all ethnic Poles) and the words of various Nazi leaders throughout the occupation, as well as the forcible deportation of millions more, are evidence of the genocide. Steeletrap (talk) 05:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, we use what reliable sources have to say, of course. My view remains that Nazi genocide against the Polish people is supportable as a descriptive title for what went on, based on Lemkin, the Nuremberg trials, and the outcomes of Polish tribunals in cases such as Arthur Greiser (the latter two as detailed in Schabas and Schabas (2009) Genocide in International Law: The Crime of Crimes, Cambridge University Press). I think Rubinstein doesn't detract from that significantly, as he parses his conclusion quite finely regarding "immediate" and "entire Polish people", as you point out. The quote from him doesn't mean it wasn't genocide at all, just that it wasn't "immediate and deliberate genocide of the entire Polish people". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

1/5 of Polish citizens but 10% of ethnic Poles.Xx236 (talk) 10:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Peacemaker67's proposed title, "Nazi genocide against the Polish people", seems to me supportable on all counts, theoretical and historical. This may be the clearest, most unequivocal title for the article's contents. Nihil novi (talk) 07:02, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I'd favor peacemaker's alternative as well. Steeletrap (talk) 21:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps the above survey could be closed, unresolved: and a new one opened: "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation" ---> "Nazi genocide against the Polish people"?

Nihil novi (talk) 19:21, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Włocławek Diocese?

It's not true that the German city of Breslau lost 49% of Catholic priests. I have corrected to Włocławek, but the 49% describes Włocławek Diocese and Chełmno Diocese. Xx236 (talk) 11:57, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Move "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation" ---> "Nazi genocide against the Polish people"?

Would an editor conversant with Wiki procedures be willing to submit a proposal to move this article from "Nazi crimes against the Polish nation" ---> "Nazi genocide against the Polish people"?

Thanks. Nihil novi (talk) 10:15, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

See the discussion above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

See texts by Raphael Lemkin. By "genocide" we mean the destruction of an ethnic group…. Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups…. Xx236 (talk) 08:38, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Terror and pacification operations - 1939 only

The subject should be continued, especially the destruction of more than 800 villages.Xx236 (talk) 10:51, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

German prisons

pl:Zakład Karny Bydgoszcz-Fordon, Montelupich Prison, Pawiak prison Xx236 (talk) 11:15, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Differentiating between things that were done to Jewish Poles and things that were done to Ethnic (i.e. non-Jewish) Poles

An IP editor, using a number of different IPs, keeps attempting to erase the difference between acts taken against Jewish Poles and those taken against ethnic Poles, but maintaining the difference is important, since the magnitude of what was done to Jewish Pole was significantly greater. This is not to say that non-Jewish Poles were not the victims of crimes, they were, and in great numbers, but the special and particular hatred of the Nazis for Jews meant that Jewish Poles suffered in even greater numbers.

I would like other editors here to look at the IP's changes [6] and comment on whether the status quo version is preferred, or the version championed by the IP. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:13, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

They both have some things to commend them. For example I think putting "racially superior" in quotes as the IP has done is an improvement, but I think German settlers is more accurate then colonizers. I don't think we need to call them Nazi Germans - just Nazis is fine, but I think switching the order to "which regarded Poles and other Slavs as racially inferior ”Untermenschen" and depicted Jews as a constant threat" as the IP has done flows better. That said, I also think "consisted of the systematic extermination of Jewish Poles and the murder of millions of (non-Jewish) ethnic Poles" is fine the way it is and changing it to "near systematic extermination" doesn't make sense. It can't be "near systematic". I prefer the USHMM wording "began the systematic deportation of Jews from all over Europe to six extermination camps", but it may be too wordy for the lede. Seraphim System ^(talk) 05:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Why do you insist on labeling them “non-Jewish Poles”? Poles are non-Jewish by default. It’s distinguished by Jewish Poles and ethnic Poles. When you label them Jewish Poles and then mention regular Poles, adding “non-Jewish Poles” it is redundant. Everyone knows Poles are non-Jewish, you don’t need to label them as such since Jewish Poles distinguishes those from ethnic. -2600:1001:B129:AB3B:58AF:C2:43E4:ABC1 (talk) 19:44, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Women as victims

There is an academic book by Maren Röger [7]. Gmys' text simplifies.Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Questionable sources / Clear out what "a Nazi crime" was

Hi. A lot of the sources seem to lead to books published in Poland under the Soviet Union occupation. Not many of those have any proofs besides ideology.

• The article needs to make it more clear what a "Nazi crime" was or what the Nazi "world view" was. Also it must decribe precisely what the Polish nation was during that time. None of this is done right now, why this article reads like a costom, populist theory of a lot of different sources integrated to fit a certain point of view.
• In short: Nazism was against Jewish-Bolshewism, conquered national states on his way to the East, which had certain organizations in it. E.g. the Polish national army and Volk, which had nothing to do with the plain Polish or slavic populace. It had its ties to the British Empire, altought the British never said they help them after the war for their own interest. The Polish state could not reign as a sovereign body, because of the military weakness and therefor not holding economic progress like those of the Germans, why the Polish were considered as a "non State" and a group "under" the Germans or Western states, which was a view also hold in Britain and France and the United States. Nazi world view and racial understanding said, that the Poles living geographically more in the East don't apply to Western individualism, but remain in slavic religious based mysticism and anti-scientific rural points of view, why those should be moved to Siberia.
• After that you can name the crimes and relate them to it.
• Also remove citations out of the introduction, which have questionable sources or suggest a different meaning that was meant during that time (language changes!) and in a war with a shortage of goods.--2A02:908:E348:BF20:103C:AEF7:5A9E:B4E9 (talk) 14:21, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Bedzin

please change ((Bedzin)) to ((Będzin)) 2601:541:4580:8500:611A:CF:EC7C:9BDD (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Done - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:57, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2022

There is a minor spelling mistake on this page in the ‘References’: “Geschichte der deutschen Bevolkerung”. The correct spelling is “Bevölkerung”. Michael69 (talk) 10:11, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done ––FormalDude talk 10:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Reference to Hitler's Obersalzberg Speech

There's a quote from Hitler's Obersalzberg Speech in this article (Hitler's order to murder "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language.") - I'd link to that article for further information on the speech. Rkieferbaum (talk) 13:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Done. But the article isn't protected right now, so you can make simple changes like that yourself in the future if you have them! -- asilvering (talk) 20:44, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Wait I lied, sorry. It's still protected, I'm just a dope. -- asilvering (talk) 20:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Bialystok Holocaust

This descriotion is either an unintended, or mire likely, an intentional minimization of the Nazi program to exterminate Jews in Poland. The Nazi murder of Poles was incidental to the Nazi's "Final Solution" to the Jewish Problem. Only Polish political enemies were killed, not systematic murder of poles for being polish, as was the case of exterminating jews for bein Jewish. This article should be corrected. 72.227.233.129 (talk) 21:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

A presumably false reference and content - could someone please fix?

"These extremely large death tolls, and the absence of substantial non-Jewish civilian deaths in other occupied European countries such as Denmark and France, attest to Germany's genocidal policies directed against the Poles, according to Timothy Snyder.[5]"

I have the book in front of me, I've looked at those pages (and checked the index for every page in which Denmark is mentioned), and my conclusion is that Snyder says absolutely nothing of the sort. In pages 411-12 and the pages immediately preceding and following it, Snyder is discussing technical matters of terminology and statistical measures. He is not making any qualitative comparisons or analogies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:5808:D56:0:2492:2A2A:2420:3C78 (talk) 19:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)