Talk:Montana State University/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

athletics should have its own section, and not dominate the page about an entire campus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.5.145 (talk) 14:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, maybe usage of the words "hoops" and "ball" as synonyms for basketball should be avoided. "steamrolling"? parts of the sports section read like a frat newsletter. Bsdlite (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Template

I waited and waited, but no one was willing to build a University Template for MSU, so I finally went ahead and made one for you, though you should really check it to make sure all the links are right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsetay (talk • contribs) 10:22, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

Somebody added a request pic tag to the article. I added a picture, but the infobox is messing up placement. I don't have time to monkey with it at the moment, so maybe the original reqphoto tagger can adjust?Astrocog (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

"M" hillside letter

Are there any photos available for the the "M" hillside letter for this school? See also List of Hillside Letters in Montana for more details. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Name of article

I've started a discussion about the name of the University of Montana – Missoula article that applies to this one too. Anyone who would like to contribute, please do so at Talk:University of Montana – Missoula#Name of article. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Non-free file problems with File:Montana State Bobcats Logo.svg

File:Montana State Bobcats Logo.svg is currently tagged as non-free and has been identified as possibly not being in compliance with the non-free content policy. For specific information on the problems with the file and how they can be fixed, please check the message at File:Montana State Bobcats Logo.svg. For further questions and comments, please use the non-free content review page. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 12:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

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Flagship university category tag

Montana State University is one of two flagship universities recognized by the Montana University System (https://mus.edu/hr/MUS-Profile.pdf). I am adding back the correct tag so that MSU is listed as a flagship university in the United States.

--Uncrfe (talk) 15:09, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Not according to multiple RS [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] , looks like the University of Montana is recognized as the flagship not MSU. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 22:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
The term “flagship” when it’s used for universities is subjective. There is no authoritative definition of a flagship university and there is no comprehensive list of them. (This is well-covered in the Wikipedia entry for Flagship university, which notes that even the College Board’s list of 50 is just one interpretation.)
Gary Olson, writing in the Chronicle of Higher Education in 2012 summed up the traditional definition of a flagship university thus:
While the criteria used to determine flagship status will vary from state to state, typically a state's flagship is its land-grant institution. It is likely to be the university with the highest research profile and the most doctoral programs. It may house the state's medical school, law school, or both. And it may be the largest and best endowed university in the state. Membership in the prestigious Association of American Universities may be yet another factor, and NCAA Division I athletics is a must.
Even one of the sources you cite, [1], includes an endnote that reads:
We have identified 50 flagships, one for each state. We acknowledge that not every state designates one of its public universities as its flagship institution, and that some states might recognize, at least informally, more than one flagship institution. Following are a few examples of other research reports of flagship universities that only include 50 institutions: 1) Tom Mortenson (August 2004). Underrepresented Minorities Share of Undergraduate Enrollments at State Flagship Universities 1992 and 2002. Postsecondary Opportunity Number 14; 2) 2005-06 Tuition and Fee Rates: A National Comparison. The Washington Higher Education Coordinating Board (January, 2006); 3) JBHE Completes it Count of Black Students and Faculty at the Nation’s 50 Flagship State Universities. Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, Spring 2006. With few exceptions, the flagships included in our analyses are the same as those in the previously mentioned reports.
In other words, the list is arbitrary and based on lists that others made in the past for the sake of easing the comparison of data.
There is also good discussion on the talk page for “Flagship university” as to why the designation is subjective at best: Talk:Flagship university#Is being a flagship university an objective fact? What does it mean?
Montana State is Montana’s land-grand university. It’s the largest university in the state in terms of enrollment and research expenditures. It is in NCAA Division I. And it was the first of the campuses founded.
There are many sources showing Montana State as a flagship as well, and most of them are from Montana media outlets, which are more likely to reflect the reality of how Montana’s university system is organized.
  • Standard & Poor’s includes both Montana State and the University of Montana when discussing flagship universities. [2]
  • Missoulian – “Montana’s two flagship universities are expected to announce their fall enrollment numbers next week…” [3]
  • Bozeman Daily Chronicle – “The University System created the current organization structure in 1994, dividing state campuses into east and west, and putting the two “flagship” campuses in charge of smaller campuses.” [4]
  • Bozeman Daily Chronicle – “…college tuition and fees at the Montana State University and the University of Montana flagship campuses has jumped…” [5]
  • Montana Kaimin – [6]
  • Helena Independent Record – “…base pay for the leaders of the flagships in Montana…” [7]
  • Magellan College Counseling – “MSU has the reputation of being the more academic of the two flagship institutions in Montana.” [8]
  • [9]
Plus, we cannot get past the fact that Montana itself, including the Legislature, designates two flagship universities.
The meaning of being a flagship university is subjective and all lists of them are arbitrary. Ample evidence, including reliable sources within the state of Montana and the state's government itself, recognize two flagships in the state. Plus, Montana State meets most criteria set in common definitions of flagship universities.
Discussion should be had on the category's talk page to perhaps set stricter guidelines for what is included on that list. Absent those guidelines, Montana State's page should retain the category. Uncrfe (talk) 16:18, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Although some of those sources are pretty weak, particularly the local newspaper, some of them are good so it's indisputable that this institution should also be identified as a flagship if that is information that many readers believe should be included in articles. Personally, I think that unless there is some special legal significance to the term then we're better off ignoring it completely given its complete subjectivity and the neverending problems that causes us. More importantly, it's probably not useful information for readers if it's completely subjective. It would be far more preferable to simply state the information that are often associated with this term e.g., most research funding among public universities in the state, largest student enrollment, oldest. ElKevbo (talk) 17:36, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
I like the suggestion to state the information in the text rather than rely on what is, essentially, a marketing term, but then do you remove the flagship category from all the other universities on the list? I don't think that'll fly with the editors working behind that list or the people who are watching over those institutions' pages. I think the path of lesser resistance is to add the category here and further a discussion about category deletion or fine-tuning on the category page. Uncrfe (talk) 19:46, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
I completely agree with Elkevbo that we're better off ignoring it completely given its complete subjectivity and the neverending problems that causes us. Its not useful information for readers if it's completely subjective. Additionally, I think we both know that nationally when discussing universities that can be considered flagship that sure some states can have 'multiple' but in the end in the purpose of research studies, universities and their academic/administrative officials, could identify 1 per state, and in this context it would be the University of Montana not MSU. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 16:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
  1. ^ https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/tuition-fees-flagship-universities-over-time
  2. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/24/us/affirmative-action.html
  3. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/03/29/flagships-go-national-at-u-michigan-nearly-half-of-students-now-from-out-of-state/?utm_term=.999d5c7063ab
  4. ^ https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED495096
  5. ^ http://www.lsu.edu/flagshipagenda/Flagship2010/peers.shtml
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