Talk:Monogatari (series)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

How to translate 怪異?

The article currently translated it as "abnormalities", which I don't think it is the right word. I feel the series is using 怪異 (Kai'i) in a different manner than that. There's even this line in both light novels and the official website,

怪異とは――世界そのものなのだから。生き物と違って――世界と繋がっている。

which I don't think "abnormalities" couldn't fit in the context well. Anyone have a suggestion? —29th ((☎)) 02:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a tough one. I can see the temptation to use a word like abnormal or unnatural, but the word isn't Nisioisin's creation; in fact, it usually refers to supernatural events rather than creatures. By using it like this, he suggests that there is little difference between a supernatural creature and a supernatural event; that contact with the creature constitutes a supernatural event. I'm wondering if "apparition" might not not fulfill those requirements - it can be both a creature and an event. Doceirias (talk) 05:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Ah, "apparition" that sounds fit to the context Nisio Isin is using. Thanks! —29th ((☎)) 17:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I checked the second volume, looks like Nisio Isin once referred to 怪異 as "Outsider" from p390, there is 怪異の王 (Kai'i no Ō) with キングオブアウトサイダー (King of Outsider) furigana. Since the word "apparition" seems to fit the context better, I think it's better to just note it here. —29th ((☎)) 06:53, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Summaries of Episodes

I've done the first two episodes and I would appreciate help with the others - however I will do the next ones if no-one else does indeed help. I think that tips and feedback would be useful also. Terminal Shift (talk) 11:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The list seems to be missing what seems to be called "episode 5.5" 76.66.192.144 (talk) 04:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
It was a recap episode created when scheduling conflicts forced a weeks delay on many stations. Not a real episode, probably won't ever be released on DVD. Doceirias (talk) 08:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
The delay should be explained in the article... 76.66.192.144 (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
These delays are commonplace enough, and usually not mentioned. Doceirias (talk) 03:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Just did ep8, but it seems a bit long. Maybe someone can make it a bit more concise. Forgot to login, though, so it's under my IP instead..Mrthefter (talk) 02:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Title translation

Bakemonogatari is a combination of the word bakemono and the word monogatari. Bakemono means monster. Ghosts are one type of monster that can also be described as bakemono, so you sometimes see the word translated that way. However, there is only one apparition that can actually be described as a ghost in Bakemonogatari. I find it hard to support including an inaccurate translation just because some fansubber has mistranslated the title. I doubt any editor who actually speaks Japanese and is familiar with the series would have ever translated the title that way. Doceirias (talk) 18:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

If you are referring to Monstory vs Ghostory, then to be honest I prefer Ghostory. Bakemono is indeed 'monster' and not 'ghost', but I must disagree with your impliance that accuracy is everything in translation. When an English speaking person who understands neither Japanese nor the premise of the story sees the word 'Monstory', I doubt that they would be able to draw the word 'monster' out of it at first glance. 'Bakemonogatari' clearly shows the intended pun in Japanese. I think that you're taking the difference between 'monster' and 'ghost' too literally, as even in English a ghost story must not necessarily relate to ghosts in particular. 'Ghostory' I believe is a reasonable compromise between meaning and intention, whereas 'Monstory' in my opinion drags the slider a little to far in favour of literal meaning, the intention of the pun in 'Bakemonogatari' becoming aesthetically blur. Nevertheless, this is based on my opinion that the word 'monster' is not as clearly conveyed in the portmanteau 'Monstory' as the word 'ghost' would be in 'Ghostory'. I certainly would have translated it that way. Maybe this is just another case of accuracy vs aesthetics. The best course of action I can suggest if the matter is not settled is to remove the "roughly __________" part in the article and simply explain the Japanese portmanteau. Draux (talk) 11:54, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Those are good points. Monstory works out loud, but not as well written down. I support your solution fully. Doceirias (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Try " beaSTory " "BEAstORY" -- beast + story --- ghosts are supernatural beasts... 76.66.192.144 (talk) 10:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Beastory would be an accurate translation since the title of each book, apart from the obvious portmanteau, is also a play on "human" radical (the ｲ part of 化, 傷 or 偽); the only book that used the "beast" radical is Nekomonogatari. The title translation is very tricky, I suggest leaving it as it is. —29th ((☎)) 17:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I just don't think supernatural when I hear the word beast. Doceirias (talk) 20:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Well... a demon is a "fell beast", a monkey is a beast, a crab is a beast, beast is used in place of monster in English sometimes, werewolves are called beasts... 76.66.202.213 (talk) 06:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Shinobu's physical appearance

User:Omimon claims Shinobu was never mentioned as eight-year old looking in any novel, which is totally untrue. I've rechecked the first novel, there has been at least two mentions of Shinobu being eight-year old looking:

  1. Hitagi Crab page 46, lower half page, 8th line.
  2. Suruga Monkey page 365, lower half page, 3rd line.

There has been mention of Shinobu being ten-year old looking in Kizumonogatari however, but that's only a short period. I'm sure it doesn't even last three chapters. —29th ((☎)) 13:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

She's also described as being physically eight years old in Nisemonogatari, which continues the timeline of Bakemonogatari. Doceirias (talk) 19:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Okay, okay, I'll admit that I'm wrong. I was reading Kizumonogatari and I assume that her appearance was consistent. Omimon (talk) 23:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Question ?

So Where Is The 3 episodes if there is 15 episodes and not 12 only? It Says it only have 12 episodes in http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=10196

If there really is more than 12 episodes where can i watch it?

(nikkiloki009@yahoo.com)

The last three episodes will be streamed on the internet/included on the DVDs. Doceirias (talk) 10:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Refs dump

Vol.1 #7 DVD charts 15K ; Vol.1 #1 BR charts 29K --KrebMarkt 18:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Otona Anime Vol 13 Otona Anime Vol 14 --KrebMarkt 19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

vol.2 #6 DVD charts 18K ; Vol. 2 #1 BR charts 39K --KrebMarkt 08:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

vol. 3 #1 DVD charts 18K ; vol. 3 #2 BR chart 41K --KrebMarkt 08:16, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Top BR 2009 part 2 Top BR 2009 part 1 --KrebMarkt 11:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

vol. 4 #2 DVD chart 22K; vol. 4 #2 BR charts 48K --KrebMarkt 15:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

vol. 5 #1 BR charts 46K --KrebMarkt 22:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

vol. 6 #1 BR charts 51K => vol. 1-6 325K. --KrebMarkt (talk) 19:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

2nd annual DEG Japan Awards/Blu-ray Prizes

This won an award in the DEG; see http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-02-18/ponyo-bakemonogatari-conan-win-japanese-bd-prizes --Gwern (contribs) 15:02 20 February 2010 (GMT)

Also see: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-02-16/summer-wars-wins-tokyo-anime-fair-top-award-6-more --Gwern (contribs) 15:10 20 February 2010 (GMT)

Shinbo interview

Apparently Shinbo gave NewType Channel an interview about directing/making Bakemonogatari, although I've only found some scattered quotations:

(Note that neither link is complete; the 4chan mirror has 2 or 3 Q/As that the wildgrounds link is missing. And the full/original interview is dead and apparently not mirrored in either Archive.org or WebCitation.org.) --Gwern (contribs) 16:08 2 October 2010 (GMT)

Heuu... Where do you want to go Gwern? Even if you had the link you would not be able to use it as inline citation.
That said the original Japanese interview can be found here. --KrebMarkt (talk) 19:27, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
There must be somewhere in the article appropriate. If we simply can't figure it out, then it would be good for a section in Shinbo's article about his (in)famous unique visual style & direction.
Citations don't have to include straight quotes... --Gwern (contribs) 20:23 2 October 2010 (GMT)
Citations have to link to trustworthy and credible sources per wikipedia standard. You may find trustworthy translations but none of them would have the required level of credibility. In other words you can use English translation of the interview but you still have to point to the original Japanese interview for citation purpose. --KrebMarkt (talk) 06:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Genre: harem?

last edit removed the Harem link. I went looking and found a number of hits saying "Bakemonogatari is harem" or "Bakemonogatari merely looks like harem, but really it isn't" (the cynical might remark that the latter are using 'harem' as a synonym for 'bad', when it's a genre):

--Gwern (contribs) 16:22 9 October 2010 (GMT)

Other than TheStar Online, which categorically dismisses that it is a harem series, the rest don't appear to be reliable sources. AnimeDiet is a blog and Twitch appears to be the same as well, but both are self-published websites whose writers have not been established as "experts" per WP:SPS —Farix (t | c) 21:31, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Twitch Film is a blog, that is true. So what? --Gwern (contribs) 21:43 9 October 2010 (GMT)

--A blog is not a reliable source, for God's sake! So I'll be removing the "harem" genre. If you want to include it again, provide a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.192.190.81 (talk) 18:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Sources: ANN (theme:harem), and ANIDB (genre:harem). Other sources that don't specify harem, do specify ecchi (AP, CR, etc).
The objection to the label, is a misinterpretation of Harem (genre), which simply means "a protagonist surrounded, usually amorously, by three or more members of the opposing sex and/or love interests." Araragi has 5 girls (plus 2 sisters) as co-stars, all of whom mess with his head, or provide "fan-service".
Part of the problem, is the alphabetical nature of our genre listing. I've solved this, by adding Comedy, so Harem isn't the first in the list anymore. —Quiddity (talk) 21:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Neither ANN's encyclopedia or AniDb are reliable sources. Their content is user generated just like Wikipedia, so anyone can apply a genre or label to them. In fact, if you have a registered account at ANN, you will see that the genres and themes have no reliable sources as they are either "I've seen it" or cite this very article. The rest of your arrangement is original research as you are making an interpretative evaluation, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. —Farix (t | c) 02:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Meta-jokes?

BaMo appears to parody other anime regularly. For example they make verbal fun of FMA (toka koka) in ep01 and the ending voiceover of ep05 parodies ARIA. Anime fan terms like moe, tsundere are also regulary mentioned. Is there a spacial meaning to that or is that something the animators put onto TV and has no basis in the manga? 82.131.134.11 (talk) 17:15, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi, wikipedia editors are not here to put their own comments, interpretations and opinions about "the works" even if it widely know & spread within the anime/manga forums. Doing so would be crossing the borders to Original Research. Thanks. --KrebMarkt (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Anon, I think you mean the 'novels'; Bakemonogatari started off as novels, not manga. As to whether the animators/Shaft added them - it depends. The author, Nisio, is known for putting all sorts of otaku-ish references into his novels (eg. I read some Zaregoto the other day and ran into some Evangelion references among many others); with such auctorial precedent, Shaft would likely have inserted even more. --Gwern (contribs) 18:58 9 January 2011 (GMT)

Monogatari Series

I think this is something we need to address. The series itself isn't called Bakemonogatari, it is only the name of the first two books. The series itself is only called Monogatari meaning it is the Monogatari series. With this being said I think we should change the article name to just "Monogatari series" since it contains info on all the other novels too. --24.83.216.89 (talk) 03:32, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Farix's 'reliable sources' was a single google search for monogatari which turned up no results for the Monogatari series on the first page. However a search for 'Monogatari series' returns two results on the first page which are referring to Nisio Isin's works as the "Monogatari novels". There was no evidence that the series as a whole is referred to as 'Bakemonogatari'. In fact, using a search similar to Farix's, it can be seen that all results are referring strictly to the first two novels or their adaptation, not the series as a whole. I believe there is simply so much more discussion of the first two novels due to the anime. With the upcoming further adaptations of the Monogatari series, Kizumonogatari (film) and Nisemonogatari (series), viewers would refer to the series as a whole as the Monogatari Series. The anon's and user Tenmei's points are irrelevant as the proposal is to move the page to one titled 'Monogatari series', not simply 'Monogatari' (even if they were not, they are weak as there is something called a 'disambiguation page'). I support the above proposal MM 122.150.58.50 (talk) 08:27, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Bakemonogatari → Monogatari Series – It is the intended name that both the author and the publishers want for the series. Omimon (talk) 14:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

  • Looking through English-language reliable sources,[1] it appears that the series is most often refer to as Bakemonogatari instead of Monogatari. So per WP:COMMONNAME, a move of this type is not advisable. After all, "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." —Farix (t | c) 16:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose WP:UCN. Further "Monogatari" is senseless, since the article we have on Monogatari has nothing to do with the suggested title. Further there are several series of 物語 . 65.93.15.213 (talk) 04:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose because of the following --Tenmei (talk) 05:24, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Characters

This section is getting much to long, and should not be a place to reveal the plot of the novels. I'm planning to take an ax and cut it down by 2/3.

For example the Mayori entry should be reduced to this.

Mayoi, the main character of Mayoi Snail, is the ghost of a fifth-grade elementary school girl who can only be seen by people who do not want to reach their destination. She is precocious and has a habit of mispronouncing Araragi's name. The two often end up fighting one another.


Do anyone object? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.90.167.232 (talk) 14:00, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Why this: "...should not be a place to reveal the plot of the novels". I think this is an encyclpedia and if doesn't want any spoilers you can stay away from here. And It's not too long...--82.60.50.36 (talk) 04:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"Monogatari series"

The usage of Monogatari series (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:Monogatari (novel series) -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 06:19, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move all. -- tariqabjotu 22:35, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

– As discussed on the Monogatari (novel series) talk page, there has been little consistency in the name of the series. The first line of the Bakemonogatari article says

"Bakemonogatari (化物語?, "ghostory"), a portmanteau of bakemono (化物?, ghost or monster) and monogatari (物語?, story), is a Japanese light novel series written by Japanese novelist Nisio Isin and illustrated by Taiwanese illustrator Vofan;"

However, this contradicts the first line of Monogatari (novel series) article, which asserts that Monogatari is actually the name of the entire series. Of course, the latter is correct since Bakemonogatari is actually only the name of the first two novels. There has been disgruntled responses that the name "Monogatari" is meaningless, since there already exists a monogatari article. However, Shaft has kindly supplied us with enough proof with the current airing season of the anime, Monogatari Series: Second Season, which pretty much spells out that it is the second season of the Monogatari series.

The three pages currently using the Bakemonogatari name have been supplying information for the entire franchise including Nisemonogatari, Nekomonogatari: Kuro, the current anime, as well as the future light novels. As a result, the current Bakemonogatari article should be franchise article and the current Monogatari (novel series) be should be renamed to account for the fact that it is just a list of the novels.

TLDR: The first line of the Bakemonogatari article is flat out false since Bakemonogatari is NOT the name of the novel series. 24.109.252.101 (talk) 00:26, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Support: The proposer pretty much hits the nail perfectly. Bakemonogatari is only the first few light novels, and the first anime, however this article deals with the whole series. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - I would have opposed this had the current season not been called "Monogatari Series Second Season", but since that's the case, this proposal makes sense. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment isn't the WP:COMMONNAME "Bakemonogatari" for this entire franchise? -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Yeah, back in 2009. Not so anymore, considering that there have been three more highly successful anime seasons out and an anime movie this fall that don't contain the Bakemonogatari name at all. Also, Monogatari Series: Second Season pretty much seals it. 24.109.252.101 (talk) 05:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
      • No, today. Just go through various discussion groups on the net. It's called "Bakemonogatari". -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 06:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
        • That's funny. All the discussions I've been part of in the past month haven't, but let's not name individual sites. How can this not be seen by logic. I know there are dumb people in the world, but is there someone who is really inane enough to go around saying "I love Monogatari Series: Second Season! I wish they would adapt the rest of the Bakemonogatari novels!". Even if the common name in the past was Bakemonogatari, considering how successful Monogatari Series: Second Season has been, all misconceptions will shortly be corrected. 24.109.252.101 (talk) 17:49, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose the main article should use "(franchise)" and not "(series)", and the subsidiary articles should also be named with the article title of the primary article, not a shortened version of it. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
    Is that not what this proposal is about? So all the articles have the same title. And even if the main article was kept at Bakemonogatari, it shouldn't have (franchise) or (series) stuck on the end because Bakemonogatari is a unique title that doesn't need further disambiguation. This is why we have Star Wars and not Star Wars (franchise) or Star Wars (series).--十八 05:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
    If we use "Bakemonogatari" no disambiguation is required and all subsidiary articles use it. The proposal is not that. It uses "(series)" and then drops it, which it should not, it should keep it all the way through. Notice that Star Wars (franchise) is a blue link and Star Wars (series) is not. So it should not use "(series)", instead it would be "(franchise)". There are multiple series involved, so "franchise" makes more sense than "series". -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 06:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
    Except for the fact that Star Wars (franchise) is a redirect to Star Wars, which I thought I showed, but I guess you didn't click on the link. My point is that series articles don't usually get a "(series)" or "(franchise)" tagged on the end unless it's absolutely necessary. "Monogatari (series)" is needed because Monogatari already exists. It would just be silly to do List of Monogatari (series) episodes when List of Monogatari episodes doesn't exist. And it makes more sense to use (series) in this case because it's officially been called a series, Monogatari Series Second Season.--十八 11:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
    Except it isn't about monogatari, so it should carry the disambiguator. And it isn't a series, it's a franchise (multiple TV series, a novel series, etc, make several series, not one series), so it shouldn't use "(series)" it's a franchise. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support I see no problem with this series of page moves.--十八 05:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support The proposed naming convention encompasses the entire series of works better than using Bakemonogatari as a title. David Bailey (talk) 09:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "Monogatari" by itself is rather an indefinite name, as it is merely Japanese for "story" or "stories", and very many stories have been told or written in Japanese down the cednturies. "Bakemonogatari" 化物語 makes sense and is not merely a barbarism like "suspenstory". "Bake-mono" 化物 ('ghost') literally means "a reduction-thing", and "mono-gatari" ('story') 物語 literally means "thing-words", "words about a thing or things", so 化物語 literally means "reduction-thing-words", "words about a reduction-thing". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, but if you actually read the post, you'll see that that Monogatari is the official name used. You can tell Shaft or Nisio Isin that they picked a super generic name, but that has no relevance here. The fact stands that the second season is called Monogatari Series: Second Season, which for the last time means the second season of the Monogatari series, NOT Bakemonogatari. If J.K.Rowling published a new novel called Novel... what can you do? Call it Ghost Novel because Novel is too generic? 24.109.252.101 (talk) 16:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support, although I believe "Monogatari" should be "Monogatari Series". Reasons: (1) There are precedences of american works being prepended with the word "series" for Wikipedia article titles, so there is no need to over-de-Japaneseify the article by taking the "Series" out of the article name. (2) the term "Monogatari Series" is used in Monogatari Series related articles. (3) It's simply referred to as "monogatari series" in both Japanese and English. (4) It's called "Monogatari Series" partly to disambiguate from the generic Japanese term "monogatari". --Makkachin (talk) 16:04, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Novel v/s light novel series

I was under the impression that the books are novels and not light novels. I don't think I've seen any primary sources call it a light novel series, but a lot of secondary sources (and unreliable sources) do. Furthermore, as far as I've checked, they're listed as novels in online retailers, but on the other hand the books (and characters from them) have been ranked by Kono Light Novel ga Sugoi!. So after doing this little bit of research, I'm confused.

Are the books light novels or not, and regardless, should they be called light novels in the article because of the RSs that call it that? ー HigherFive〈Ｃ | Ｔ〉 13:08, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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