Talk:Mongol invasions of Durdzuketi

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There is a few useful paragraphs in the article, if we ignore some Nationalist view and non-citations. --Enerelt (talk) 10:18, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not so much nationalist as Chechen perspective. The fact is that the Chechens were (ultimately) successful in repelling the Mongol attack (although that has to do with the little reason the Mongols had in sending more hordes to Chechnya after the Chechens retook the lowlands as well, as it was not necessary to wipe the state off the map). Most of the info comes from Jaimoukha and Anchabadze, so we can go on a citing spree, but in general stuff is cited by paragraph to avoid redundant citation, etc. --Yalens (talk) 14:42, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The Mongol point of view- i.e. why the Mongols attacked Dzurdzuketia, their motives in eventually giving up (and the motives of those tribes which didn't give up)- should be added, though. That would be very helpful. I simply do not have any sources analyzing the Mongol side of the affair at the moment. --Yalens (talk) 14:44, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

It's a nice article, but it can be improved. There are few sources on Dzurdzuketia during the Mongol invasions and Jaimoukha seems to fill in the blanks himself sometimes. I think the article should depend on more sources and explain them. Anarchonistic lines can be removed, such as reference to the chechen-russian conflict which started centuries later. References to 'Chechens' could probably be replaced by 'Vainakh' because Dzurdzuketia included Ingush land and the ancestors of the Ingush. And perhaps we could name the article Mongol invasions of Dzurdzuketia? That's how the area was known to the outside world at the time. Chechnyafree.ru has two articles on the invasions [1], [2]. It's a government sponsored website, but unfortunately few of the sources are named. It could also help us if the Mongol invasions of Alania, Dagestan etc. had their own articles. Machinarium (talk) 19:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

just removed the turkic vassal part. Mongolian armies had so many different nationalities in their armies including armenians ,persians,russians and so on . showing only one of them and ignoring rest of them is kinda strange. by the way, main army is mongolian army and this is what really matters . come on people lets stop this ultra nationalistic pow . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.76.42.188 (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Is it not true, though, that it was specifically the Turkic vassals (and then later Timurlane's Turk forces) which attacked Dzurdzuketia? About chechnyafree.ru, I have reservations about that site, specifically because it is government run (in addition to frequent lack of sources and what seems to be nearly paraphrasing Jaimoukha without giving him credit)... About the anachronistic lines, though, this is a good point Machinarium, I hadn't realized they might seem that way. On the "Vainakh", I think it would actually be best to call them "Dzurdzuks" only, because the term "Vainakh" is a modern invention derived from the modern Chechen language (vai we/us +nakh people). --Yalens (talk) 13:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Invasions

I think it would be a good idea to create a page Mongol invasions of Caucasus or possibly merge this page with Mongol invasions of Georgia and Armenia because that were essentially the same invasions. Am I mistaken? My very best wishes (talk) 13:32, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Besides, this page even failed to mention the famous Subutai who led first invasion. My very best wishes (talk) 14:47, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

These invasions did not follow the same events and trajectories as those in Georgia and Armenia. It even differed with other parts of the Caucasus, though they were of course related. Whether things are teh "same" invasion is to a degree subjective, of course. --Yalens (talk) 21:12, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Also I (still) don't have sources on Subutai in Durdzuketi. :( --Yalens (talk) 01:28, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Sources in Russian for expansion

These are the sources Jaimoukha cites, all of which are in Russian. I don't have access at the moment. If someone who does could expand this in line with them, that would be awesome :

Also consult:

• Khizriev, Kh. A., ‘Iz istorii borbi narodov Checheno-Ingushetii i Stavropolya protiv Timura [From the History of the Struggle of the Peoples of Chechen-Ingushetia and Stavropol against Timur]’, Voprosi istorii Checheno-Ingushetii, Grozny, vol. 11, 1977.
• Khizriev, Kh. A., ‘Iz istorii osvoboditelnoi borbi narodov Severnogo Kavkaza protiv mongolo-tatarskikh zavoevatelei [From the History of the Liberation Struggle of the Peoples of the North Caucasus against the Mongol and Tatar Conquerors]’, in Sotsialnie otnosheniya i klassovaya borba v Checheno-Ingushetii v dorevolyutsionnom periode (XI—nach. XX) [Social Relations and Class Struggle in Chechen-Ingushetia in the Pre-Revolutionary Period (11th-Beginning of 20th Centuries)], Grozny, 1979.
• Khizriev, Kh. A., ‘Geografiya pokhodov Timura na Severni Kavkaz [The Geography of Timur’s Campaigns in the North Caucasus]’, in Voprosi istoricheskoi geografii Checheno-Ingushetii v dorevolyutsionnom proshlom [Questions of the Historical Geography of Chechen-Ingushetia in the Pre-Revolutionary Past], Grozny, 1984.
• Khizriev, Kh. A. Kavkaztsi protiv Timura [The Caucasians against Timur], Grozny, 1992.

Thanks. --Yalens (talk) 01:31, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

How many z's?

• Durdzuketia
• Durdzuk

and

• Dzurdzuketia
• Dzurdzuk

all are used multiple times in the article. Which beginning is correct, Dur- or Dzur-? We should decide on one and use it consistently. If they are both acceptable, we should in addition mention the other in the top section, with an explanation of the difference if appropriate. --Thnidu (talk) 17:57, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Durdzuk. Dzurdzuk may be more common in English literature but the proper form is usually Durdzuk and given that English sources don't really delve into this period of Nakh history much... better go with Durdzuk. --Calthinus (talk) 00:46, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Timurs invasion

ilkhanate which was a part of mongols invaded aswell but I don't see it in this page. Iask1 (talk) 19:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Im planing to create a seperate page for the Timurid invasion of Simsir. Malhuyataza (talk) 15:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Jonarin56

The user mentioned above keeps vandalizing this page by writing made up claims and not putting a source behind it. It would be highly appreciated if the administrators ban or at least warn him. Malhuyataza (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello Bbb23. I don't know any other admins who could help me so I would like for you to see this. Jonarin56 is continously vandalising, waging edit wars and making unconstructive edits in Mongol invasions of Durdzuketia. Please do something about him. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 11:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@WikiEditor1234567123: A few things. First, you've already received good advice: take the editor to WP:ANI. Second, have you tried discussing content disputes with the editor? As far as I can tell, the user has almost never talked with anyone, but before going to ANI, you should at least make the effort. Finally, it's not a good idea to call another user's edits vandalism unless it's obvious to everyone. Unsourced "claims" are not generally considered vandalism.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:41, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay thank you for your advice and time. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

We need a neutral revision of the article.

Muqale, WikiEditor1234567123 , Hello, it seems to me that this article needs to be revised, since many sources are firstly Chechen, and secondly they refer to folklore and legends, and this, as we know, is not authoritative sources. Targimhoï (talk) 21:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with @Targimhoïon this one, i am aware of these sources and all of them are based on hearsays and folklore. Most of these sources are based on Murtazaliev's interview of Chechen elders during the 90's. None of these sources are peer-reviewed, in fact i doubt even the author (Amin Tesaev) would want them to be used this way since these folk tales aren't confirmed as legitimate. Goddard2000 (talk) 14:26, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Goddard2000 and Muqale, I'm glad that Targimhoï raised an awareness to this topic. I personally think that this article was very flawed right from the start and I don't even know where to begin to improve this article. I propose that we work together in somehow finding reliable sources for this topic and fix the article, possibly remaking this article from the scratch. What do you think? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:55, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Waaleykum Salam, the original article before the mass editing are good enough to revert to in my opinion, at least for now. Goddard2000 (talk) 20:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

@Alaexis Hello what do you think about doing the same to this article that we did to Simsir? Since this article is full of unreliable sources. Goddard2000 (talk) 19:18, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this article suffers from the same issues, so I would be happy to help even though I'm not an expert. Alaexis_¿question? 20:00, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Alaexis, indeed the article has major issues and I personally think it was flawed from the start. You're also free to help in making the article better. Despite all the issues the article currently has, I think in future if we work together and find enough material and sources, we could fix up the article. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:35, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Btw a question to both of you, is Amjad Jaimoukha even suited to be used as a source? I'm saying this because I heard that he isn't even a historian at all. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

We have to be careful with Jaimoukha's book since it makes bold claims without references. If we want to add something then it has to be properly referenced. Anyway i will change back this article to its original version for now. Goddard2000 (talk) 01:21, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Assalamu alaykum wa rahmattulahi wa barakatuh. It's seems like someone restored the folkloric version... Could you once again revert the article to it's original form? Thanks. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 14:59, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Waaleykum Salam, i don't want to turn this article into an edit war since i'm sure the other editors will undo my reversion like before. I will try to have this article protected later, same with Simsir and the others. Goddard2000 (talk) 14:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh nevermind i just noticed 3family6 restored it to the original version. If the article is reverted to the other version again then i'll proceed to protect these articles. Goddard2000 (talk) 14:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

To be honest I think both articles are really poorly made and have weirdly interpreted sources. For example, this whole "2 Mongol invasions" idea is invented by the creator of this article, the Mongols invaded/raided into the North Caucasus several times (1222, 1238, 1263, 1277, etc). Also Tamerlane was half Mongol and his entire army was made up of mostly Persians and Turks if im not mistaken, so calling that war a "second invasion". I'll try and see if I can make a remake of the article, and if it gets reverted to the folklore version then i'm all for a protection.Busulb Vash (talk) Busulb Vash (talk) 15:42, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

• So calling that war a "second invasion" doesn't make sense.

Busulb Vash (talk) 15:43, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Alaexis! How you doing? Do you think anything could be done to the article as it's constantly being edited by random IPs who add the unreliable version (full of unreliable sources and folklore presented as history) back? Best regards, WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 10:42, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I've been a bit busy lately. The best way to deal with random IPs is page protection, you can request it here when it happens next time. Alaexis_¿question? 13:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)