Talk:Mitra-Varuna (Indo-European)

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WikiProjects[edit]

Should they be called Maytras Varsanos[edit]

That is more like the actual Indo European reading but everyone calls them Mithra-Varuna Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (please tag me) 02:00, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

LGBT misinterpretation[edit]

Mitra and Varuna are not associated with homosexuality in any way in Hindu mythology. This is a misinterpretation also present in the Hinduism Mitra-Varuna article, in which a biased source (Gay & Lesbian Vaishnava Association) quotes the Shatapatha Brahmana 2.4.4.19. This verse does not state that Mitra implants his seed in Varuna. The word "his" is omitted. You can find proof here. Verse 2.2.2.21 states this: "It is through union that he produces him: the curds (payasyâ, fem.) are female, and the whey is seed. Now what is produced by union is (pro-duced) properly: hence he thereby produces him by a productive union; and therefore there is an offering of curds." It's not Mitra's semen, it's whey. 122.174.67.31 (talk) 02:21, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Acceptance and Criticism[edit]

I've never heard of this theory in my life and the basis for it doesn't seem particularly strong. Is this not something discussed outside of deep academia? I think that a criticism section is sorely lacking here as some of these connections seem tenuous at best. 24.217.141.248 (talk) 07:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. This is one of a large number of articles that constitute an unacceptable synthesis of sources to posit gods of a proto indo-european religion about which very little can be said. The very little is not nothing at all. Scholars are reasonably sure in their reconstruction of *Dyēus for instance. Beyond that things get murky. Most of these (including this one) were created by one editor, for whatever reason. But cleanup is hard work. AfD takes time and the WP:BEFORE needs some careful analysis of sources, so this on is still here. Please note the following deletions thus far:

My thoughts on this article are that Dumézil's thesis has been misunderstood and that this article has then been synthesised from some excellent sources (e.g. Mallory & Adams), none of which claimed that this was the name of any such god. There is something here. The Hindu gods of the same name probably do derive to some extent from PIE religion, but that is detail for Mitra–Varuna rather than an article in its own right. But even a merge is going to need some reading to see what of this page is salvageable and what is pure SYNTH. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dumézil's thesis is available in translation on archive.org [1]. Making th epoint of how much we don't know, he says, inter alia,

I leave historians of philosophy to evaluate these coincidences, and to decide whether they are mere chance or whether the two dualistic philosophies developed in part from the early myth of bipartite cosmic sovereignty.

Which is not to say it was left there. Much work has been done, but Mallory & Adams are quite clear that *Mitra is Proto-Indo-Iranian. Cognates are found for Mitra in Mithra, Dius Fidius, Numa Pompilius, Núadu and many others in various Indo-European branches. It is the concept that he analyses, not the name. Likewise Varuna finds cognates in Pāndu, Ahura Mazdah, Romulus, Esus etc. No one is saying that there was an Indo-European deity called Mitra-Varuna (Mallory & Adams, 1997:432). That is editor synth and this page should not exist. I am still undecided if there is anything mergeable here, and where it belongs. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]